ethics questions

I just found this site about a month ago and I really like it. Congratulations to whoever started it.

I have a few questions for songwriters. The easiest one is this: When one is a member of a performing group and writes songs which said group performs, what should happen to them when/if the band breaks up? Do you think the songs should "die" and everyone should move on, or do they still belong to the writer forever? I have been in this situation and I would like to keep my songs but have been told that was a no-no.

The other question is related: Should former members of our hypothetical band other than the songwriter be able to ever perform or claim the songs again? This has also happened to me, and I was quite offended. After we broke up, our former leader (who never wrote anything) revived some of our songs in his new group. They weren't mine, at least the ones I found out about, but I have a feeling he did take a few of mine that he really liked and just wouldn't admit it. Then, a few weeks later he started bugging me for music and lyrics to this awesome kickbutt song another friend of ours wrote, but whom neither of us had ever performed with. To me, this is unacceptable and tasteless, but I don't know maybe I'm off base here.

I guess I can't really stop him but it really made me mad. What does anybody here think? Is there any solution?

I've never really been in that situation , but , I believe that the songs that YOU wrote are yours . You should be able to continue on with those if you want to . A good example is Gary Numan . Alot of his earlier hits like DOWN IN THE PARK , ARE FRIENDS ELECTRIC , and BOMBERS were written when he was in TUBEWAY ARMY . He has always been the writer of all of his songs , so he still performs them today . If you want to protect you're songs , copyright them . That's the best thing you can do . If not , then this other person that you are talking about could go on to make money with you're songs , if they aren't copyrighten , then you have no leg to stand on .

This is the website that can answe to all your questions. www.Ascap.com

PS. You wrote the songs,the songs are yours!

Cheers,
Maximo

Desertmusician,
You have copyright on the songs you write!
If you don't there is nothing to stop anyone
from stealing your songs! Once you have copyright he is breaking the law by claiming it! And if your song is ever sold on a recording, ( CD ect.) you are entitled to a %
of that sale.
Now don't ask me how you go about this cause I don't know! It's been talked about on this forum some time back. Maybe someone else will answer and let you know about it.
Hope this helps,
Nobby

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[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 05-16-2002).]

desertmusician:
Just to echo Nobby's response.
Unless you've got rights to the song (music/lyrics) whatever...it's up for grabs by anyone with little or no ethics.
Copywrite laws differ from country to country, so it all depends on where your at....so to speak.
Good Luck!!

Here is the link to the library of congress copyright page http://www.loc.gov/copyright/
They will send you the forms that you request for free.

I know of a band that lost their leed singer (who wrote the lyrics), so they kept the music and changed the lyrics. I felt that was appropiate.

[This message has been edited by kaboombahchuck (edited 05-15-2002).]

Thanks everybody for your input. I guess there's a pretty clear consensus of what I should do. Only problem is I'm not sure how to do it. Thank you Maximo and kaboombahchuck for the links, but I'm just a little nobody and they look kinda intimidating. I'll try and figure it out. I want to keep writing so I guess I'll just be more careful about who I share it with.

If a song is not copywritten, it is public domain. A band/singer/etc. can play it, modify it, slaughter it, sample it, use it on their answering machine and there is NOTHING illegal about it.

Once a copywrite is on a song, then those people that have ownership of the copywrite must give permission for the song to be covered, published, etc. Basically, if its copywritten - its illegal to use it without permission. However, someone can stand up on stage and sing a copywritten song, and if no one knows the difference - oh well. It takes a lawsuit to actually enforce (like the Stones suing Verve for 'borrowing' the lick in Bittersweet Synphony).

Pink Floyd had to come to terms with Roger Waters to continue to perform classic Pink Floyd tunes...that's usually what happens when a band wants to continue to play songs that have copywrites.

Every situation is unique. But here's the real killer. If that guy goes and gets the copywrite on the music before you or anyone else - you are screwed. Then he retains the copywrite and its almost impossible to reverse that. Then, even though you wrote the music, he gets the credit, and the right to make money from it without having to give you a dime.

That's scary.

Getting a copyright is really simple. If you have a sound recording of the works in question, simply go the the copyright page, get form SR, fill it out, include the $30 fee in the form of a check or money order, and the recording, send it in. If all you have is the lyrics, then get form PA.
Here are some tips:
The $30 fee may change as of June 2002
Send any requests via FedX, or UPS. The reason for this is that they are not accepting any requests from the USmail because of the anthrax thing.

If you really want these guys to stop using your music, copyright it. Even if the recording is of them.

Actually, the moment a creative work is put in real-world form (e.g., written on a piece of paper, recorded on a tape, etc.), it is automatically under the protection of copyright law and belongs to the author until he/she signs away the rights to someone else, like a publisher.

The trick is, having proof should a case ever come to court, and in that case, registry with the library of congress is usually the only court-accepted form of said proof.

But other forms of registry could help a case, e.g., having an MP3 site up where the music and words are posted, or having the song registered with your performance rights organization (BMI, ASCAP, etc.)

Bottom-line is, those who steal other people's works don't usually last long in the business, and word gets around pretty quick.

But a local guy performing some of your songs wouldn't really be worth a court case, because unless he gets a recording contract, he's just playing to a small audience and not really affecting your ability to profit from your work in regards to using it yourself or signing it to a publisher.

So even if he's singing your songs at his local gigs, there isn't a lot you can do about it - just feel flattered, and get the official registry of your works in order if you think there's going to be a large commercial potential for them.

RobertK:
I thought I had heard something about that before. My dad is also a writer and he told me something like that. The way I understood what he said any work was copyrighted as soon as it was written, but to me that didn't make any sense.
So if I have it right this time, my songs are copyrighted, but in order to prove it I need to get the document.
That's a relief, but is this a little-known fact or something? I believe you because it's something I've heard before, but why is everyone else saying I have to buy a copyright? Or is there some other caveat that I don't know about...

Desertmusican,
All of us that gig. are going to more than likely sing others copy right songs, no problem? But we should never claim them to be our own!
As Robertk said there's not a lot you can do about it!
But if he records that song on a CD & mass
produces it to sell, your going to need a copyright cert. to prove it's yours!
With copyright, he can still record the song
but only with your permission in the form of a contract!
It is also really again the law to record copyrighted songs off the radio!
There is not much way of catching one at this! But every time you do this you beat them out of a sale! ( We all do it.)
Nobby



[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 05-19-2002).]

Hi Desertmusician,

I usually only post at the Technics site but decided to have a look around the rest of this great forum. From the remarks in this post, I guess you are located across the pond from me (I'm in UK) As some other members have said, if you create a 'work of art' and you say that it is copyright then it is copyrighted. A simple way to prove ownership is to place a copy of the work, in the case of a song, either paper copy of the words and/or music or an audio recording in a package and then mail it to yourself. When you receive it, leave it unopened and lodge it with your bank, solicitor or other secure place. The package will bear the dated postmark. If your copyright ever needs to be proven, then any court would accept this - at least in UK.
Hope this may help


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Willum

[This message has been edited by Bill Norrie (edited 05-18-2002).]

Here in America a "poor mans copyright" simply will not do. If someone else took your song, and took the time to regester it with the copyright office, there is no way your simple work on paper would hold up in a court of law. Not even the ol' send it to yourself via register mail would save you. If you do not register it, you have NO PROTECTION WHAT SO EVER. There is no if and or buts about it, but hey, it's your work. Do with it as you will.

OK ! The day was not wasted - I learned something. Different country, different laws.

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Willum

Thank you all for your help. My questions have been answered. Alas and alack, my faith in humankind has been destroyed (boohoo) but I will just have to be more careful.