Ok Gang! I'm keeping my hopes up that Roland has finally decided to come on board and add 'rootless' jazz style chord recognition on the G70 with OS 2.0 version.

G70 owners who have updated to OS 2.0. PLEASE perform the following Chord Recognition test and report back your results:

In auto accompaniment Split KB mode, play the following 3-note chord voicings (in the keyboard area left of split point) and report back if the G70's chord recognition results are anything similar to what is shown below:

1) F1-C2-E2 : Dm7(9)
2) F1-B1-E2 : G7(13)
3) E1-A1-D2 : C69
4) E1-Bb1-D2: C7(9)

The above chord voicings & associated chords (and in all 12 keys = 48 chords) are now included in the arranger chord recognition table of the following keyboard manuafacterers:

Ketron
Korg
Technics
Yamaha
Ketron

I only HOPE that Roland has finally come on aboard with this because this chord voicing type (and in all keys) are the basic chords played universally by jazz inspired keyboard musicians worldwide.

Thanks in advance.

Scott

Judging by your comments it Sounds like your ready for a 76 key Arranger Scott....being your mostly a Piano style player I'm suprised to see you going for another 61 vs a 76 this time around where you could open up and really let your pianoesque full keyboard fingering style of playing really shine

What happens if you play #3) E-A-D but want A Sus??

I HATE systems that make you HAVE to finger a chord a certain way, If I need a C6/9 I'll play one, thank you very much! Better than accidentally getting it when I meant A Sus! (if I need C6/9 I play C-D-E-G-A - how hard is that?)

Scott
On my G-70 Split Arranger Mode I got:
(1) FMaj (2) G7(13)
(3) ASus (4) Bb b5
In Piano mode (full keyboard) I got:
(1) F(3) (2) G7(13)
(3) ASus/E (4) Bb b5(E)

Out of curiosity I did the same on my KN7000
Split Arranger Mode:
(1) F (2) F
(3) ASus4 (4) Bb b5
In KN7000 Piano Mode:
(1) Dm7(9) (2)G13
(3) C6(9) (4)C7(9)

....and now I am confused!!
Keith

[This message has been edited by KeithB (edited 10-15-2005).]

Dnj,

I'm sure it's no secret I will not buy another 61 key arranger. I feel Scott is on the right track in checking the G70 for useability and I'm waiting anxiously for these finding.

Al

Scott, educate me?
Your jazz chord recognition examples...you refrain from the root and fifth of each chord illustrated...Probably used as passing tones with in the chord sequence..

Why can we not use the inverted bass option? By selecting a bass note ,other than the root and/or fifth..it will stay out of a bass players way...at least I think the root/fifth will not revolve in the arranger/style..

Dear Scott;

Why do you want to know if the G-70 has the rootless chord recognition? You already bought the tyros 2.

Regards;
BN

I'll continue (for gigging) to utilize a 61 note arranger KB because it's smaller and lighter . . . PERIOD!

As I've repeatedly stated, "auto accomp mode" style playing (for me) requires no more than 61 keys, and doesn't require using the octave +/- buttons either. Auto accomp style playing requires an entirely different playing approach than solo piano/keyboard. Solo playing requires more keyboard real estate (additional octaves) to allow for playing left-hand arpegios, octave strides, bass lines, etc. In auto accomp playing, the auto accomp provides all of this, with the LH's only job to trigger the chords, plus rhythmic comping and/or (smooth) chord transition changes. In split keyboard mode, with the split point set at F#2, I find 1-1/2 octaves quite sufficient to handle this task, leaving 3-1/2 octaves (G2-C6) available for everything played with my RH. Hey, this is only a 1/2 octave less than available on an 88 note piano above middle "C". The only time I require more keys is for true solo piano style playing. For 'some' piano works, even a 76 note keyboard is not enough. But for gigs that I want to really showcase solo piano playing, I'll simply take my Roland A-33 76 note controller and midi it to my 61 note Tyros. This offers me the gig flexibility of only having to bring more keys if/when it's really required.
I'll still continue to utilize my 27 lb Tyros (and soon to be T2) because of its significantly lighter weight & smaller size. My interest in a 76 note arranger is primarily for 'solo keyboard' style STUDIO work and recording.




Come on Dikki, Just how often have you found it neccessary to play a 3rd inversion Asus cord? I seriously doubt this has come up very often (if at all) in your playing. Play A1-D2-E2 instead

It's important to realize in keyboard playing, that it's not merely which chords & associated inversions you play, but 'how' you play them in succession to create a chord progression with "smooth" voice leading. This means chord changes where the individual chord tones don't jump more than a whole (Major 2nd) step between chords.

The single strongest (up a perfect 4th) chord progression and 'most often' seen in the American Songbook (aka Jazz Standards) is the II-V7- I Chord Progression. When playing solo piano, it's perfectly acceptable (and expected) to INCLUDE the root of the chord , but in a 'combo' situation that includes a bass player, the rhythm section keyboard player is expected to leave the root out, and let the bassist do it. Because the role of the rhythm section keyboard player, playing on an arranger keyboard (in auto accomp mode) is essentially the same, this applies equally here as well, because the 'auto-accompaninement bass part' supplies the chord's root tones. If an acoustic keyboard player played this way on a jazz style gig with pro players, believe me, they wouldn't be called back to play with them ever again.

That said, there is a specific chord progression kb voicing that pro (especially jazz) keyboard players use to achieve 1) smooth voice leading, and 2) chord voicing which don't include actually playing the root. This includes this variation of the II-V7-I rootless chord progression popularized by the late Jazz legend, Bill Evans, and now played by Diana Krall, Jamie Cullum, and countless other contemporary keyboard artists as well:

II: Dm7(9): F1-C2-E2
V7: G7(13): F1-B1-E2
I : C69 : E1-A1-D2

The above is recognized by Ketron, Korg, Technics, and Yamaha.




Keith, first of all, many thanks for performing the above G70 OS2.0 test.

I fully understand your confusion. Not only have arranger manufacterers not yet come to a consensus on chord recognition itself, but also how they recognize them in split vs full keyboard modes.

Interestingly enough, ONLY Technics has been able to fully implement advanced jazz chord recognition in 'full keyboard' mode. Yamaha & the others have not successfully implemented this in full keyboard mode, yet found a way to get around it by implementing this in split mode, freeing your right hand to provide the chord voicing alterations (b9, #11, etc) without affecting the LH recognition. If only Yamaha could now implement what Technics has already beautifully achieved in full keyboard mode, yet maintain what Technics doesn't do in 'split-mode', I think it would make everyone happy, from the amatuer to the pro, and further arranger kb appeal to even more keyboard players out there.


Correct, in jazz style kb playing, the root & 5th are typically the first notes to be eliminated when adding chord extensions: 9ths,11th, 13ths.

Fran, I believe your 'on bass' example is intended for an entirely different situation, and different than what's needed here. I want the auto accomp bass to still provide the typical bass line patterns, including walking bass (including root tone). The purpose of the rootless 'keyboard voicings' is so I can play live (as the keyboard player) chordal comping which don't include the root, yet still trigger the auto accomp bassist to provide this.



BlkNotes: Huh?! Is there a law that says we're not allowed to own more than one arranger keyboard?

As I stated earlier in this thread, I'll continue to utilize the 61 note Tyros2 for most all gig situations, and (possibly) purchase a 76 note arranger for studio work & recording. I'm not commiting yet if/what 76 note arranger I will (if any) buy, but having a 76 note arranger not only expands the solo piano style 'recording' possiblities, but further expands on the impressive sounds/styles of the Yamaha Tyros2 as well. . . a good thing I'd expect. It's not a Yamaha is better than Roland, Ketron, Korg, etc thing for me. I seek any keyboard(s) that works best for my musical taste & specific playing requirements.

Scott

Scott wrote: For 'some' piano works, even a 76 note keyboard is not enough. But for gigs that I want to really showcase solo piano playing, I'll simply take my Roland A-33 76 note controller and midi it to my 61 note Tyros. This offers me the gig flexibility of only having to bring more keys if/when it's really required.

Scott, I didnt know you had a Roland A-33?
Can you elaboate on this Controller, keyfeel, navagation, etc, etc. ?
Im looking at a newer A-37 as we speak......

Yep, have owned the Roland A33 for quite a few years. Though it doesn't include fully weighted piano action, it has a very nice key feel & great response for a synth-action controller, relatively lightweight (17.86 lbs) for its time, well constructed, and well suited for portable easily transportable 76 note solo keyboard playing.

Donny: don't mean to appear nosey, but I'm curious WHAT keyboard are you currently playing now? I assume you're 'no longer' happy with the Yamaha PSR3000 as you seemed to be only a few short months ago. If so, WHY the sudden change in opinion? Did you sell one (or both) of your PSR3000's?

Scott