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#978 - 04/26/05 09:07 PM Keyboard Controller Confusion
Jukingeo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 11
Loc: NY
Hello all, I recently ran into a dilema when it came to choosing the proper keyboard to hook up to my computer to use it to learn to play as well as arrange music. Well, like any long story, let me start at the beginning. I basically like to work with classic keyboard sounds such as the Hammond B3, Fender Rhodes, Wurly, Clavinet, and of course decent piano sounds. The grand daddy of all and my favorite classic instrument is the pipe organ. Now my playing ablility leaves much to be desired. While I can read notes on a staff and also can match them up with the notes on a keyboard...it is the timing that I have a bit of trouble with. Anyway I will get to more of that later.

Since I been working more with computers now and have been visiting music stores less and less, I began to possess a knowledge of soft synths over standard hardware. So now most of what I enjoy to work with is available as programs for the computer. I already have a few programs from Native Instruments and Reason and I am looking to purchase Sonar. In fact, I have more direction in what I want in terms of computer programs then the actual controller itself...and herein lies my problem. I am tired of trying to work with a "basic" keyboard, or worse, the computer keyboard. Idealistically, my "dream" controller would resemble a pipe organ console more than anything else. I even have a card that allows you to convert a regular organ console to midi. Trouble is, I lack the space for a huge console like that at the moment.

Since I consider myself a novice when it comes to music, I would like to expand on my playing abilities. Being an audio technician, I fix everything from guitar amps to digital piano's. I have seen quite a bit in terms of keyboards. One thing that came across my way that really caught my attention was a cheaper Casio style keyboard that had songs built in and actually showed you the notes on staves as the music played. Slowing the tempo down, I was amazed at how fast I was able to follow along and pick up the songs on my own! Granted, the sounds were your typical medium range Casio sounds and certainly nothing compared to a soft synth (like Reason). But I was able to play along with the music and learn a few songs fast. Now while the Casio was limited to 100 songs, it was still a fantastic learning concept. Later on I realized that there were more keyboards in this 'family' that offered learning functions. One piece I came across that blew me away in terms of overall feel and sound quality was the Yamaha P-120. In fact to this day, I have not heard a better piano sound in a keyboard of it's size and price. The sounds are very useable throughout, but it's lack of buttons and features do not make it suitable for what I would like to do. Plus it is out of my price range at the moment. But one day I would like to get a P-120 for the living room. It is a great sounding piece. The next piece I turned my attention to was the Yamaha DGX-500. I was impressed with this piece too. It did have the notation screen and even teaching capabilities on board! The piano sound was CLOSE to the P-120, but definately not on par...but livable. The other sounds were ok, but there was plenty to work with. I was more after what features it has in terms of using it as a controller for my computer...but then I got shot down when I looked at the midi implementation chart. It says it receives and transmits on all 16 channels at once and it cannot be changed! That certainly is not ideal. The midi overall on these units seems VERY limiting. Then I was told to look into dedicated controller keyboards. While this would solve one solution...on of my main goals of some type of teaching aid could not be realized. But I figured perhaps there is a computer program that will help me in that department. Moreover a computer program wouldn't be set with a fixed set of say, only 100 songs.

So now I was looking for controller keyboards. I needed something with quite a few knobs and buttons...preferably something with 9 sliders so I can access the drawbars on B4. It seemed hopeless as the better controllers made by Roland, Yamaha, and Studiologic were really lacking in the knobs, sliders, and buttons department. But studiologic DID have a couple decent boards, the weighted keyboards from Studiologic had the nicest feel...But the WMK-188 at almost $1000 is out of my price range...I would rather get the Yamaha P-120 and have some sounds built in! It's keyboard has a GREAT feel to it. (I never actually touched a WMK-188, but I have worked on previous Studiologic products and overall they are pretty good). So then came an answer...although it seemed. The controllers made by M-Audio had the most features and DID offer alot of knobs and even 9 sliders (for drawbars)! But I found out the hard way that M-audio controllers are built terribly and have a horrible feel to them. I bought the Radium 61 to try it and returned it the same day. Later I read up on M-Audio and found out much of their products have been getting horrible reviews. The last controller I looked at (on-line), was the VMK-88 by Studiologic. It is a controller that got a mixed bag on reviews, but all agree the keyboard feel is very good for a non-weighted keyboard.

Sidebar: For me...it doesn't matter if it is weighted or not. Yes organ playing is better non-weighted, but doing organ licks on a weighted keyboard DOES build up strength in ones fingers . So it is even easier then going to a non-weighted keyboard. Fingers fly so to speak! So provided that I can find a computer program that can assist me with my playing, the closest thing I found thusfar is the VMK-88. It is far fetched from my original idea of using an organ console, or even two 61 note keyboards and a pedal board, but still is better than what I have now.

Yet I still reflected back on that Yamaha DGX-505. If there was a keyboard that did what it did and sounded like it did AND had good midi specs and enough controls, then I would go still that route. Moreover, I currently have an old Yamaha DX7s and I can use that as the second keyboard later on.

So now that I am totally confused over what to do, I think I need to enlist in more experienced help.

So in summary what I am looking to do is to find a quality keyboard with a good feel that I can control my computer programs and soft synths with that has enough knobs and sliders to control them with (without having to resort to a bunch of mouse clicking), while at the same time being able to use the keyboard with either instructional guides built in or perhaps find a computer program that would allow me to do the same thing.

I am open to all suggestions and thank you in advance for taking the time to read this length post.

Geo

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#979 - 04/28/05 08:38 PM Re: Keyboard Controller Confusion
MORPH! Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 296
Loc: Laguna Beach, California, Unit...
Ugh! Yeah! Your welcome in advance!...geeze, my freakin eyes...oh sorry it's not your fault really. Hey and I'm just kidding around with you too LOL. I Wonder if Nigel would ever be up to subdueing that terracotta-ish backround? Well anyway, I read your post. There is a program, a company called indeo puts it out called: interactive keyboard. It is grrrrreat! from chopsticks all the way to jazz pro sessional levels. It bounced my all mode arpeggio jazzy ass into next week and left me spinning when I attempted to challenge it. While feeling frisky once, I told it what to do. It is a learning program that is better than the best virtuoso whoever they are. You see, you can manually set it, or you can have it automatically detect your aptitude and dexerity when you play along with it. It can tell you where middle C is and it can tell you how delayed or advanced any particular mid note septuplet was as well as it's keyed duration. It has full-on MIDI implementation, so if you have a good file that is correct, you are going to learn the song. Period. My favorite sweat job is a classic, classical rock of ELP. All impressions of Karnevil Number 9. The way I figure it, when the program whips that out the same as it does anything else on the screen showing you and the accompanied trainer along with the histories of how you play it, have improved, where you need to concentrate your efforts to improve better on a holistic level; not even an excellent pianist/keyboardist/teacher can do all that in just one pass. The best part of all is: An outstanding keyboardist educator is going to charge you about one hundred an hour. The price of this program is that of a half lesson. Fifty bucks. Possibly the best 50 I ever spent. The only thing it has in common with other learning programs is that it comes in a box. Get that and a Motif 8 plus some hefty determination and in three years you will likely be soon to get a standing ovation. Anything is possible whether you do or do not conscieve of it being as such.
Motif 8's are cheap for all that they offer. It is one heavy SOB, but you did say you wanted weighted keys right?
Anything weighted is going to have lots of weight. Hey! I just said something that makes some sense! LOL. All the sounds you mentioned are loaded in it. Plus, if you buy a PLG Piano expansion card along with it's already excellent piano, you'll swear it sounds better than an opened up and freshly stretched late seventies to early eighties Steinway concert grand. Speakers of course, are very important. Yep. The very best learning setups are certainly not directly related to the amount of money spent on them.
_________________________
MORPH! Sound

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#980 - 04/30/05 12:27 PM Re: Keyboard Controller Confusion
Jukingeo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 11
Loc: NY
<<
Quote:
Originally posted by MORPH!:
Ugh! Yeah! Your welcome in advance!...geeze, my freakin eyes...oh sorry it's not your fault really.>>

It is a bit in a way. I tend to be long winded. I guess I tried to get too much out in one shot.

<< Hey and I'm just kidding around with you too LOL. >>

Understood, but I would kind of figured there would be those poking fun at the long post. I should have made it shorter though.

<>

Ok, so then I take it that this is a stand alone computer program, right? I think I should tell you (all) that I have a PC and not a Mac. I don't know why I didn't mention it before. I should know by now with music and graphics programs you have to specify.

<< It is a learning program that is better than the best virtuoso whoever they are. You see, you can manually set it, or you can have it automatically detect your aptitude and dexerity when you play along with it.>>

My dexterity is very bad. I can do melody and block chords with no problem...but anything slightly more complex I have trouble with.

<>

So it is based on ANY midi file? I would rather have a pre-set file to follow along. Usually regular midi files are riddled with so many parts and embellishments it is hard to filter out what is needed. The Casio keyboard I worked on was perfect. It showed both the left and right hand parts across a keyboard on the bottom of the screen and as it played, I could slow down the tempo and follow along with each part and how each chord/melody part was fingered.

I found out alot since I made this post. Those Casio/Yamaha all in one units really have poor midi specs and make horrid controllers. They usually transmit/receive midi on all channels and you have little control over it. Let alone there is little in terms of cc controls. So I know now that I probably will NOT go the portable keyboard/organ route. But it is nice to know there ARE programs that will do the job and support midi as well.

<< My favorite sweat job is a classic, classical rock of ELP. All impressions of Karnevil Number 9. >>

Here you there. I am VERY much into Hammond B3 rock riffs and it is the primary reason I bought B4. But my problem now is finding a way to properly control it.

<>

That DOES sound cool. But I guess I have to see it to see how it works.

<< The best part of all is: An outstanding keyboardist educator is going to charge you about one hundred an hour. The price of this program is that of a half lesson. Fifty bucks.>>

Well, I knew that going full bore piano/organ teacher was out of the question for that reason as well. I only would have employed one IF he/she could properly teach me the Hammond B3 and at a moderate fee. But even here...I find I learn quite a bit on my own at my own pace. So with the proper program/tool I think I can do better.

<< Possibly the best 50 I ever spent. The only thing it has in common with other learning programs is that it comes in a box.>>

I guess you mean that it is a program and not part of a piece of hardware right?

<< Get that and a Motif 8 plus some hefty determination and in three years you will likely be soon to get a standing ovation.>>
Motif 8's are cheap for all that they offer.>>

Hmmm, I don't think a Yamaha Motif is that cheap at all. It is out of the question considering it has no where near enough sliders/knobs to control B4 or any endowed soft synth. It is very large and even though it does have alot for it's price, it really has very little I can use. While the Yamaha P-120 may not have much for it's price. I know I can use ALL of it's sounds and it is SMALL. The keyboard action is the best I have experienced...much better than a Motif. The only problem is finding controls. I love the P-120 and I was tempted to buy it, but I need something more flexible. Besides, if I find a good 'soft' piano and get Native Instrument's Elektrik Piano...I may not even need the P-120...but I just love the keyboard action.

<< It is one heavy SOB, but you did say you wanted weighted keys right?
Anything weighted is going to have lots of weight. Hey! I just said something that makes some sense! LOL.>>

Yes, you are right there. I have worked on Motif's before...and hate them because of the size and weight. As for weighted keys...you got me there. I will say that I do prefer the 'quality' feel of a hammered action keyboard...and I would say it is a must for piano playing. Can I do organ riffs with it? Yes...but for practicing. I find praticing on a weighed keyboard just makes my hand fly much faster when going to a non-weighted keyboard. I think I may eventually end up with both in the long run. I am actually thinking of getting something smaller and non-weighted right now that is heavy on control features. Should I want to expand down the road, I always can buy myself a P-120 and get the nice weighted keys and have the best of both worlds. So yeah, I think I will head in this direction. Probably will look into a good controller keyboard for now. Any ideas? I have already checked out M-Audio and ruled them out. Their keyboard action is lousy.

<>

Hmmm, perhaps, but as I said, a Motif is too much. I don't need a work station. If I were to go that route, I would shoot for a Kurzweil K2600. But I believe a controller may be my best bet. Something with lots of knobs and sliders. I looked into a used Roland JD-800 (an awesome keyboard in it's own right) but found that despite all of its controls...it is only sysex midi and not cc. Not good.

<>

No problem there. I got that covered.

<< Yep. The very best learning setups are certainly not directly related to the amount of money spent on them.
>>

That is true, and I was looking at my best options. For one, my jaw dropped when I first saw the Radium by M-audio as well as the keystation pro 88, but my excitement was quickly squelched when I got my hands on them. The keyboard feel is horrible.

One strong contender for a controller I been recently looking at is Studiologic's VMK-88. However, no music stores in my area carry it...so I cannot touch it. Usually Studiologic has good feeling non-weighted keyboards and can trust them there. But at 14lbs...I am really wondering how well built the thing can be.

It is a shame as it seems that all the good companies such as Roland, Yamaha, and Korg, do not make very capable controller keyboards, whereas companies such as M-Audio and Evolution make keyboards with all the controls you can ever need, but the product is so cheaply built.

So as you can see, I am stuck. But you did clear one good thing up for me...that there is a program available for the computer and I don't have to settle for an "all in one" keyboard to get the learning feature I desire.

I think I will make a separate post in regards to keyboard controllers.

But thank you for the info in regards to the learning program. I will check them out later on today.

Geo

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