Man the more I look at it, and read into manuals ect, I have to say that of the top 3 makers out there, Korg arrangers IMO are probably the closet thing that merges the "synth and arranger". I am very impressed with the voice engine in the PA series. Even the PA-50 has a 4 osc synth engine.

I think Korg is the leader here in catering to the synth junkies out there looking to have both an arranger and a synth in one. I think Roland follows closely behind them, and Yamaha... well they still have yet to get there IMO.

**I'm also talking editig options within the keyboard itself and not editing features that have to be used via external software**

Boy I hope this store I visit over the weekend has a PA-800. I really want to try this unit. They're loaded up on PA-50's though. So I'll get to play with the voice editing on that unit I look forward to it too.

I'm gonna have quite a few reviews to post after this weekend

Squeak

i agree with you squeak, but then korg have always had op systems that allowed the user to tweak the hell out of anything on them, even creating totally new sounds from scratch,even with the syle programming...their level of programmability needs to be experienced to be believed...they are like the good ole days(?!) of synth programming...( oh and btw, it's "make an ass out of u and me" )
cheers
dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 04-16-2007).]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh....My old M1 days (sigh)

I have PSR3K + Korg PA50 and the PA50 is a remarkable board for it's low price. Nice build quality and nice keybed.

Miden,
That saying I posted was actually a very popular twist off the original quote from Samuel Jackson in a movie he did I think he went outside of script and they left it in.... I may have quoted it wrong though. I think S. Jackson said.., "when you make an assumption, you make and ass out of "u" and mption Movie humor..

I'm just very impressed with how many options Korg has included in thier arrangers for creating and tweeking your own voices. I think they've done a wonderful job at it, and as I said am surprised to see even the PA-50 has all those options. I like that Korg is using Triton Based sound engines too. We've talked so often about the need for arranger makers to share more things between these two lines of keyboards.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 04-17-2007).]

Squeak you should of bought Don M's Pa800 before he sold it...great price too. It wasnt his cup of tea. I personaly like the Korg sounds I had a few in my day.....
Korg "Personal Arranger" 70's ,M1,i3,i30,Pa80,Pa60....its the navagtion that I dislike for my needs....too many steps in menues to get around.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-17-2007).]

I'm hoping the store I visit this weekend has one to demo. They said they might, but weren't too sure.

Squeak

Dont count on it....you cant even find an american demo online anywhere....have fun.

Just to tap in a little on NickG's little outburst.

The problem some of you have with the flame-fests is it is always going along like a real discussion, until somebody (doesn't matter who) says something like 'these threads about your opinions on brands / synths and arrangers are a waste of time' and voila... you have actually created the thing you are posting against!

Nick, if any of us told you to your face that YOUR opinion is a waste of time, you would probably accuse US of trying to 'stir things up'. How come YOU get a pass....?

Personally, I think any discussion about the workings of arrangers is EXACTLY what this forum is about. Perhaps you and the poster don't agree, but as long as you keep it civil, everything goes along fine.... including opinions that Brand X is better than Brand Y at doing certain things (it's just an OPINION, get it? No need to call up the troops!). It is when things like 'your opinions are a waste of time' get posted that the flames start burning.

What exactly, are we supposed to post about here, if an opinion about an arranger is considered inflammatory? American Idol? Our health..? PLEASE..... You can argue all you want about arranger features, OSs, operational characteristics, ways to perform, PA's, you name it. It is when you start attacking each other personally just for holding a contrary opinion that shows your lack of manners and civility. And saying someone else's opinions are a waste of time is rude, disrespectful, and deserves every flame you get...

You have to show respect to others before you are entitled to receive it.....

And, back on topic....

The whole point about bringing to everyone's attention about Brand X being superior in certain regards is NOT to belittle your choice of arranger, or to prove the poster's superiority in choosing that brand.

The idea is to start you thinking about whether you would actually LIKE those abilities, and if so, start to put pressure on your arranger's manufacturer to add said capabilities. They lurk here, you know. This is the best free focus group they have. If large numbers of posts start appearing that say Brand Y's voice editing capabilities are sub-par, you don't think that is going to effect their R&D?

You've got to remember, these are not our children or grandkids. They are tools. Plain and simple. Tools that can be improved. Stop being so defensive over a stupid tool... If you can't think of anything that needs improving, you are just not trying hard enough!

The more pressure we place on the manufacturers, the more chance we have of actually seeing our wishes come true. Otherwise, we are simply sheep, at the mercy of whatever hare-brained idea the marketing departments come up with (and ALL of us have some features on our arrangers that make us go 'what moron came up with THIS idea?!').....

So, a poster posting about the superiority of Brand X at certain aspects of use is NOT an insult to your mother, it's a discussion about a TOOL. Keep thinking that while you post, and a lot of the flames just die out.

I like the Korg chord fingering system better than R or Y. It's a lot easier to play a major 7th on a Korg - try it.

Cassp.....
this is my point WE ALL LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS IN OUR INSTRUMENTS......none of which are wrong this creates a comfort level for ourselves individuality is the KEY when discussing things on this forum....once we start pushing our opinions to strongly on others the aggression starts....whats right for one person is not always right for the next. Your post describes exactly that in a good way....thanx for your reply.

But the defense of a particular feature or approach is still that.... NOT a response to someone saying 'your kid is ugly'....

The trouble is, there are far too many here that think JUST THAT WAY.

If someone doesn't mind carting around an extra 15 lbs weight, to get features that no lighter arranger has, there's no point in belittling him (or her!) because YOU are prepared to take weight over function (or don't care for or need that function). Sure, just say 'I don't need that function, so I'll take the lighter arranger' but why attack a person for having different priorities than you? Perhaps you think he shouldn't post his (or her!) opinion because you don't agree with it...?

What has happened to us in the 21st century that we have forgotten that the other guy has a RIGHT to his opinion? And if you disagree, you are supposed to debate it, not sling insults at each other as if we were that lowest form of life - the politician?!! Debate the topic, NOT the man.

Swift-boating people is (or should be) beneath us, here at SZ...

Before we finish the "virtual" execution of Nick G, I have the following observations:

1) Both the Tyros2 and the PA800 (by virtue of it's similarity to it's predecessor) are pretty "dated" keyboards in terms or reviews (and demos).



2) I'm not sure how effectively one can "review" something as complex as a modern arranger from just a couple of hours in a store (divided between several models). Me personally, I'm only interested in "reviews" from Sound-on-sound, Keyboard Magazine, George Kaye or Dan01, or a musically-sound and technically savvy OWNER who has spent considerable time with the instrument. If someone goes into a music store and is impressed by some feature on a keyboard, by all means post it, but let's not call it a review; that's a review of his or her (usually initial) IMPRESSION, not a review of the keyboard.

3. With all respect to Squeak, when you announce ahead of time that you will be gracing us, dullards that we are, with one of your insightful, in-depth, must-read, "the real truth revealed here for the first time", reviews (even though no one really requested it).....well, I can see how that might appear to some as arrogant.

I truly believe that Squeak has only the best of intentions but I can also understand where Nick is coming from. There are always two sides to a story. Sometimes more .

chas

A review is a review chas. I don't care if it comes from keyboard mag or someone who spent several hours on it the store. How you choose to judge the validity of a review is obviously your choice.

However, the problem is people just assume things far too often here. This forum is in written form. So often people are too quick to assume something is arrogant. Keep in mind everyone has a way of putting their words on paper (or the screen in this case.

If we all spoke face to face we probably wouldn't have so many personality clashes here. I don't recall ever taking the positon as "gracing" anyone here with my reviews, as if my word is the almighty.

Geez I was the first one here to report the Yamaha MM6 was an arranger and felt that others here may be interested in this considering this is an "arranger" forum. I even pointed out that I got the confirmation from Yamaha, and I took heat just for doing that. People just take things way too personally here. You make a comment about something you don't like about a keyboard, and some act like you insulted their mother. It just often seems that some members feel they need constant justification from other's that their money was spent well when the only person whos opinion really counts there is the person who bought the bloody thing. However, the moment someone points out something negative BAM! you get nailed with rudeness.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 04-17-2007).]

Chas, read this thread.... NickG walked in with the axe. If it ends up cutting him, who's to blame...?

And the next time you offer any opinion, impressions or just plain shooting the breeze, you had better HOPE no-one says anything like QUOTE: ' With all respect to Squeak, when you announce ahead of time that you will be gracing us, dullards that we are, with one of your insightful, in-depth, must-read, "the real truth revealed here for the first time", reviews (even though no one really requested it).....well, I can see how that might appear to some as arrogant.' UNQUOTE Otherwise, you are probably going to get as upset about it as squeak ought to be....

There isn't a trace of condescension or arrogance on this thread until YOU post something like that. If you think YOUR words don't come off that way, try reading it as if it were addressed to YOU....

"With all respect to CGILES, when you announce that you will be gracing us, dullards that we are, with one of your insightful, in-depth, must-read, "the real truth revealed here for the first time", posts (even though no one really requested it).....well, I can see how that might appear to some as arrogant....."

I certainly don't remember anyone being that rude to you when you posted YOUR unrequested review (or was it just an impression?) of that Roland Vocoder thingy.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-17-2007).]

ay yi yi!! and down goes another thread that had promise....oh well, next!!

It was definitely an impression (what else am I going to say ) that spoke mostly to the fun factor (I even jokingly blamed Squeak for bringing it (the Demo) to my attention resulting in it's purchase).....besides, I was an owner that had spent at least a couple of weeks of quality time with the instrument.

I think there is a difference between posting your impressions about a rather obscure (though intriguing) piece of gear that you have recently purchased and that someone has shown an interest in, and .....well, somehow it seems different to me (imagine that ). Oh well, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong (something you probably can't relate to, Diki) and I'm sorry for trying to point out that maybe, just maybe, one could have a perception of Squeak's post that might provoke a response like Nick's.

Lucifer

What a freakin joke man! Had this topic been in glory of the T2 and it's abilities we wouldn't be where we are now with this discussion.

Please someone point out to me the arrogance and what was wrong in this topic that would in the slightest, justify Nicks response???

I pointed out a very strong point about the Korg PA series... However, no matter how upset Nick gets and so rudely shows his discontent for any keyboard that's not a T2, the FACT remains the Korg PA series has more synth editing options built into the machine. That's not my opinion. That's a FACT. I just said IN MY OPINION and went from there.

Geeez I can't win with anything on this damn forum. I post about a synth someone gets pissed off. I post a good point about an arranger someone gets pissed off. I post about drum machines (knowing that quite a few use them here), and someone gets pissed off. I make a FACTUAL statement about board A to board B, and I get drilled for that.

I deal with everything on this from from racist pricks to childish goons who want to cry to mommy everytime someone says something negative about their toy. For pete's sake if you can't take sand in your shoes get out of the damn sand box, and let the rest of us play.

Squeak

Squeak
Don't let 'em get ya down! Don't be drawn in you don't have to defend yourself.

please delete post

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 04-18-2007).]

Nick perhaps you missed something here. I could give a rats furry backside if you ripped on Roland all day long. The T2 works for you and that's great, but DONT EVER give someone else a hard time because they find reasons as to why it won't work for them, and make a statement that doesn't favor the T2. Roland works for me, but doesn't always work for someone else. So what! As long as you're happy with what you're playing. Don't trash other's because their opinion doesn't sit right along side your own.

UHHH it's no secret I'm a Roland fan, but hmmmm let me scroll back to the top of this post for a second... oh my gosh! What's that...? I'm praising KORG!

Like I said Nick you take things too personal. There was nothing in this post that was attacking anyone. I compared the synth engines in arrangers by the big 3 and pointed out that one had the lead and offered more. It makes me wonder if I had said the T2 was the leader in that area if this topic would have even continued to this point. It's one thing to bust my nads for speculating Nick, but this post addressed FACTUAL difference between the 3.

God almighty, what's wrong with you guys?

I feel like an old man with his pants up to his chest just came outside and yelled "You kids, get off my lawn!"

Fortunately, for everyone to see (at least you haven't slunk in and edited away your posts) are the original posts where Nick and chas come in here and try to rip squeak a new as*hole, just for stating an opinion!

Personally, you can take that attitude and put it where the sun don't shine. It certainly would fit there better than here at SZ.

Jeez, Nigel, how long do we have to put up with this crap...? How about, just one time, ripping the initial hate spewers a new one, and grabbing this one before it turns into 3 pages of negativity..?

What we got to do to get some adult behavior in here?

Common guys Scott will never come back when he reads this stuff

We could start by not feeling compelled to put up a five paragraph response to every single post that hits the board.

Is this a private party, or can anyone vent here?

ROTFLMAO @ dnj

I had decided not to post in this thread, but to call the Pa800 "dated" has nothing to do with reality. The Pa800 has the same sound engine as the brand new Korg M3 workstation. In comparison to the Pa1X this gives the following improvements:

1) 120 voice polyhony instead of 62
2) 16 oscillators pr. voice instead of 4
3) Equalizer on each track
4) New advanced effects algorithms
5) Bigger sample ROM with 150 new multisamples
6) The sample RAM has been doubled to 64 mb

In addition the Pa800 can connect to USB2 hard drives and flash drives - on the Pa1X you still have to use the floppy drive to exchange data!

Soon we will able to expand the Pa800 with a MP3 board that can playback two MP3 files at the same time with crossfading, pitch and tempo control! I don't know about any other current arranger keyboard that can do this (the Ketron Audya will do this too, but it won't be available until early next year).

And don't forget that the Pa800 weights only half as much as the Pa1X.

Sorry, but couldn't resist

Kind regards,
Tommy



[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 04-17-2007).]

Re. dnj's and miden's posts just now (TommyF's just nipped in before me) . . .

Yeah, and to think that just a couple of weeks ago in another thread, I was hoping that Scott might be tempted to rejoin this forum.

Dat's anudder fine mess you've gotten me into.

[This message has been edited by renig (edited 04-17-2007).]

Tommy, thanks for the heads upon the PA800


[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 04-18-2007).]

its an arranger forum. so why is nearly 90% of the stuff on this thread focused on personal attacks ? How about we agree between ourselves that if some one has caused offence whether innocently (as i believe Nick did) or deliberatly, that we simply email one another and have it out offline like normal people would rather than slag each other off publically ?

As far as the original thread is concerned, there is really no question that in terms of editiability and synth/true workstation like qualities , the PA series boards are well ahead of the competition. Even the daddy PA1X before OS3 had the possibility to use up to 4 oscilators at once , with each oscillator being able to be edited independently to the nth degree. Now post OS3 you can create upto 16 oscillators in one voice. The editing and creative possibilities are frightening. Yes it will eat polyphony like chocolate cake but imagine using the board like a true synth (not in arranger mode , playing multi textured pads and screaming leads !!!! None of the other arrangers have this synth like capability coupled with a true very useable sampler that can be used to layer new sampled sounds the onboard sounds and triggered by velocity swtiching. AS Squeak D said, all this can be done directly from the board without the use of additional software , just like a true synth.

This is a really important distinction for the zone readers that want an arranger but with true synthlike potential.

I think this is a worthwhile thread if we just stick to the subject matter.

Surely this is not even a matter for debate ....It was simply an opinion as this is also just my opinion.

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 04-18-2007).]

[This message has been edited by spalding4 (edited 04-18-2007).]

Hi All
The reason I think Korg has more Workstation capabilities is because it is relatively new to the Arranger Market, and had only made Pro Instruments beforehand, therefore they are still learning as to what arranger players want. (I believe that this is also the reason why new users find the OS more difficult to get into, rather then say the Yamaha OS)
Quite a few SZ members seem to be promoting the fact that a lot of the newer boards have twin mp3/wave players which can morph between the two, however I would like to know what SZ members use this feature for, as unless you are going to use it as a DJ, I can’t see the point of it. (You only need one player for use as a backing)
Look forward to your comments on the last question.

Bill

thats definitely a good point there Bill about Korg coming from the Synth background.

In terms of tweaking abilities and editing functions, yamaha seems to have less than the korg obviously but i believe the on board a sound quality is better in the sense that the sounds sound more realistic.

also, anyone who really is a serious music producer wouldn't just buy a keyboard hoping it can do all. They would have a good PC/Mac program such as Cubase / Cakewalk / Fruity pro and use a keyboard to go with. most occasions the keyboard is quite basic...

There are always going to be people who pick out things/features that keyboard A doesn't have over keyboard B, who are generally people who have very little knowledge of real music production what so ever.

Generally for people who like to get on there and have a quick bash and get a good realistic sound, any of the high end synths are more than good enough... they each just have different ways or methods of getting there.

cheers,

Nick

Bill,

Korg introduced its first arranger in 1983 and the groundbreaking i3 is from 1993. You can read the complete story here:

Korg Arranger History

I think that Korg have had plenty of time to learn what arranger players want. And a lot of arranger players want Korg these days

Kind regards,
Tommy

Hi Tommy
I know of the I series, however never new about the SAS 20. (Although it may not have been released in the UK) The first Single Keyboards (They weren’t called Arrangers then) for the mainstream in the UK were from Yamaha, Technics and GEM. (All arriving towards the Mid 80s)
Thanks for the link

Bill

Bill,

I must admit that I didn't knew about the Korg SAS-20 either even though I have been playing arranger keyboards since 1983 (and you are right: they weren't called arranger keyboards then). Another link:

Korg SAS-20

Interesting to see how technology has progressed in 25 years.

Kind regards,
Tommy

[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 04-18-2007).]

Once again another good post down the crapper because a few had to take things way out of hand and start with the mud slinging.

The topic of this post was about a comparison between the big three in terms of synth power. Nick say what you like, but one doesn't have to put their hands on ANY of these units to see which one behaves more like a synth. If you can read you'll see it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read a freaking manual and see which has more options.

Again due to someone getting all bent out of shape this topic which praises Korg for doing such a great job at meeting the needs in synth power is becoming another mine's better than yours. Nick if you can't see that this flame war was started by you then I don't know what else to tell you.

posted by Nick:
--------------------------------------------
In terms of tweaking abilities and editing functions, yamaha seems to have less than the korg obviously but i believe the on board a sound quality is better in the sense that the sounds sound more realistic.
--------------------------------------------

See.. here ya go Nick, you even say here Yamaha has less in the tweeking department, but look how fast you turn that around to say the "sounds" are more realistic. This topic HAD NOTHING to do with sounds. You just agreed the Yamaha has less voice editing options. Voice editing and synth power was what this topic was about. That being the case why are we at this point now with this topic? YOU TOOK A PERFECTLY LEGIT TOPIC AND HIJACKED IT!

Please Delete post

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 04-18-2007).]

"In terms of tweaking abilities and editing functions, yamaha seems to have less than the korg obviously but i believe the on board a sound quality is better in the sense that the sounds sound more realistic.

also, anyone who really is a serious music producer wouldn't just buy a keyboard hoping it can do all. They would have a good PC/Mac program such as Cubase / Cakewalk / Fruity pro and use a keyboard to go with. most occasions the keyboard is quite basic... "

Hi Nick. Firstly the difference between synths and arrangers are that arrangers predominantly mimic real life instruments like pianos guitars etc whereas synths to a greater extent contain sounds that dont exist in real life . Whether yamaha or korg sound more realistic really isnt the point about this thread even though i respect your opinion.

The key point about this thread is that Korg have tried to merge a fully fledged synth with a fully fledged arranger . There is an obvious market for this hybid instrument which is why the PA series has sold so well . The Korg PA1X for example has been a worthy competitor in the arrtanger market even against newer products in terms of sales and populariy.

Obviously the synth/arranger customers are out there and in good numbers too. I dont know if we should be making any judgement about their musical production savy just because they want an all in one instrument. Serious musicians cant be pidgeon holed like that. Afterall thats exactly why the korg series appeals to me.

The point of this post is that korg have facilitated to a much greater extent the ability to get really deep into sound creation/synthesis and arranger/workstation features for musicians who want the ability to do all the work that they do whether that is gigging live with a real band, playing as a OMB or combo or working at home/studio creating sounds or ideas and then sequencing/recording them.

I dont think Squeak is ntrying to denigrate any other keyboard. He is just saying that he has just discovered (where have you been Squeak!) the depth of this instrument in terms of its synth features.

over looking the thread and what i have posted, I admit I have been extremely hard on Squeak, and I offer my greatest apologies.

I was mistaken about the intentions of this thread...

Squeak, Diki, Fran, Spalding, Donny - check your emails please (i sent it to the address you have in your SZ info).

cheers

[This message has been edited by Nick G (edited 04-18-2007).]

no worries Nick. Its all good

No hard feelings Nick.

Squeak

Let's get back on topic... Who's tweeking those Korgs??? I'd love to hear from owners who have the PA series and if they're using the synth editing in them. When I test out the PA-50 this weekend I'm gonna dig into the voice editing too.

Squeak

Yeah! Peace is back in SynthZone land

Squeak, I haven't done that much synth programming on my Pa800 yet, but I really intend to dig into this later. You can load any Triton program into a Pa series keyboard and in most cases it will sound exactly as on the Triton. The effects routing is a little different in the Pa series which can cause problems for sounds that depends heavily on insert effects, but most Triton programs sound great in a Pa keyboard. This really gives you a good impression of how expressive the underlying synth engine is - it is much more than just sample playback.

The Pa50 is a great keyboard - nearly identical to the Pa60 I had a few years ago - but you should note that the user interface has been improved significantly on tha Pa1X and Pa800, in part because of the touch display. The more primitive Pa50/60/80 display can only show a few parameters at a time which makes synth programming somewhat more complicated, but you still have access to the complete synth engine even on the Pa50.

Kind regards,
Tommy

Hi,

I use mostly my Pa1X Pro to recreate natural sounds, and in this case the pcm is very important. I've added some piano, e.piano and clavinet sounds coming from AKAI libraries and I'm really happy now.
I've created my own sound just making all the editing needed without great problems. The sound engine is powerful, even if I've not explored too much it for synth sounds I believe that coming from the Triton engine will assure anyway very good results (FYG a fine set with good synth sound is available for free in the official Pa web-site to highlight this).

Hope this help.

Regards.

I figured I'd chime in here. The Korg PA800's sequencer is also clearly more sophisticated than the Roland E-series of which I own an E-50. Of course...it better be as it's twice the price! I've been reading the PA800's manual lately and am very impressed. One of the things I really like about the Korg's are that when you go into the Quick Record Backing Sequence and record something with a given Style you can go into the sequence later via event view and change styles like you would change program/bank patch events. This means you can change on a dime style changes. You can't do that with the Roland sequencers that I know of. One might say "I can do much more within my DAW with an external sequencer" but I like the idea of getting maximum ease and flexibility with these onboard sequencers for fleshing out most of the song and not have to muck about with the PC. The Korg sequencer seems very intuitive yet powerful. On the Roland's there are basically 2 ways to sequence midi events. Recorder vs 16 Track.The Recorder can record 16 tracks at a time but if you attempt to then overdub 16 tracks halfway through the song you realize it doesn't work. It simply starts at the beginning and erases what you just recorded. Inversely, the 16 Track sequencer method only allows overdubbing one track at a time. Huh?? What about 16 tracks with unlimited overdubbing with any amount of tracks? The Korg kills this in every way especially considering it's ability to change styles within the sequencer. Very well thought out.

Brian

"but I like the idea of getting maximum ease and flexibility with these onboard sequencers for fleshing out most of the song and not have to muck about with the PC. The Korg sequencer seems very intuitive yet powerful."

Thats just the point ! when i work with the keyboard especially in developing a song or an arrangement i want to be able to record it quickly and then make more detailed edits later. I mean how much extra does it cost to incorporate a more high spec sequencer on todays top model arangers ?? I was really disappointed after listening to the SD5 demo and being so impressed only to hear that it did not have a full sequencer. And then hearing the new Audya demo which was good and the concept is very interesting but then to be told it doesnt have a full sequncer onboard. It just kills it for me. I am certain some of the major arranger manufacturers have lost out on potential sales for this very same reason.

The korg seems to me to come the closest to a complete aranger workstation for me and certainly suits the way i work. I am not saying that it is suitable for everyone though.

[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 04-21-2007).]

Yes, I agree. It's not really saying one is better overall. It's about what satifies your approach musically. The idea I'm starting to lean towards is having an awesome sketchpad as opposed to a basic sketchpad. Keep the flow, change styles, edit/correct chords by simply typing in via an event view. Don't get me wrong, I like how the E-50 sounds but I think the extra bucks will be worth it even though I would miss some of the E-50 styles. For me, workflow with an onboard sequencer is outweighing other bright spots on the E-50. Which is pretty funny because I have a fairly elaborate DAW home studio. Complexity vs workflow....