God's will: cancer, sickness, disease, war, natural disasters,...

The Devil's Work: drugs, crime, sex, gambling, not being a believer, etc... Unless you're the victim... then it's God's Will.

It's God's Will: One of the most insulting and uncaring words ever. Unless you're looking forward to catching AIDS or get swept into sea by a tsunami.

I've never really got the "Its God's will" myself.

As a young pup I was taught in Sunday school that God gave everyone free will. We are free to make good or bad decisions and will bear the consequences of each.

But at various times in my life I've heard people remark, "Oh, it was God's Will."

Is it that everything that happens is because of something that's happened before OR is God pulling the strings on everything and we're basically puppets?

Or, perhaps a blend?

No disrespect meant towards any one or their beliefs, but Taike puts an interesting thing out there for us to chew on...

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Bill in Dayton

Again, a potentially volatile but worthwhile post from the "intellect" in my adopted family.

Good observation, Bill!

R.

Taike, I hope Chas and others will respond and indicate an appreciation of the thought and depth of this one.

R.

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 05-19-2010).]

Maybe it's God's will that the devil be permitted to do his work? One of those things that can probably never be fully understood on this level. There may be a difference between what God wills and what God allows.

I'll have to give this some more thought before I come up with anything that makes sense, even to me . Being an Atheist, I'm not sure that I even have the right to comment. I've been watching this Stephen Hawking's Universe thingy on the Discovery channel (or maybe Nat. Geographic, can't remember) and when he starts to describe the vastness of the universe and the billions of galaxys that it contains, and the possibility that there could actually be multiverses, well, it begins to stretch the imagination a little to think that one single entity controls all that. But if, for instance, he doesn't, then how much of it does he control? What is the extent of his reach? Who rules the rest of it? If God doesn't like the Devil, why doesn't he just zap him? Is it like a big game and God needs an opponent? How many other things do you believe that are completely unsubstantiated by even a whiff of proof? Why do people want to kill other people because they refuse to 'see the light'. Of course, I guess something had to set off the 'big bang'. BTW, in 'Creationism', what exactly was created? How much 'detail' does God pay attention to (if I cheated on my wife, would he know it, would he even care? - remember the vastness of the multiverse with it's billions of universes with it's billions of galaxys)? Wow, I have sooooo many questions? I need answers. I know! I'll go read the Bible. Nah, guess I'll just stay ignorant.

chas

Well, since we all know that we can't control every individual's actions and thoughts, the Church had to "invent" something that would put them in a good light. It's easier to put the blame on someone or something then on oneself. This way you're always the good guy fighting the bad guy. And what perfect excuse to get rid of the unbelievers, the heathens, to colonize, commit genocide, rape and plunder.

Free agency? See above...

And lastly...no church should earn money! Yet, the fastest way to become rich is to start a religion. At least the Native-Americans had(have) it right: a belief is free so how can you charge for it? Why pray in a manmade structure about God's creation when his creation is being systematically destroyed? And my favorite... the white man prays to God, we talk to him.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 05-19-2010).]

Interesting observations...

I draw a line between Religion and Spirituality. I think Religion is Man's attempt to apply Spirituality in a systemic way across a Culture.

In my life, when I have tried to be strong in my Religion, or the practice of it, I usually feel as if I'm coming up short. Churches seem different to more than they were when I was younger. As a youth in Pittsburgh, I remember friendly, warm and thought-provoking sermons and messages. Living in Ohio for the last 20+ years, I've seen a big change. Its more gloom and doom, more you must do this or you're going to hell. That threatening tone doesn't resonate with me.

I also attended meetings with a youth group called "Young Life" when I was in High School. Maybe I was there for the music and the girls, but I usually felt comfortable there. It all changed for me when our local group attended a retreat and at one point 500+ teens were told "If you've accepted JC as your lord and savior, blah, blah, blah - stand up!" Most everybody jumped up, but a few of us didn't for various reasons. I'd personally never experienced an epiphany or anything so I thought it dis honest of me to just conform and stand. YL was never the same for me after that. I wanted to be "religious" I really did, but it just didn't pan out. I didn't seem to feel what the other kids did.

On the other hand, when it comes to Spirituality, its a whole different ballgame. A quiet, direct sense of communicating with what I perceive as God has worked much better for me. Is this approach a cop out? Maybe. Am I less of a good person because I don't profess my beliefs in a large room a few times a week with hundreds of other people? I don't think so.

Perhaps I'm what's called an "Ala Carte" Christian. I like this, this and that, but NOT that, that or this.

Faith is a helluva thing, lol...

I think I have it, but I admit that I also have doubts.

Is my struggle "God's Will" or "The Devil's Work?" Depends on who I talk to, I guess...

Chas-Some Atheists are among the most Spiritual souls I've ever met.

I try daily to live as virtuous a life as possible. I don't go out the door every day hoping to be the best Christian I can be, I go out and try to be the best Father, Husband and person I can be. If the sermons I heard as a young person were true, then it'll all work out for me in the end. If the messages of the last decade or so proclaiming I MUST do this and I MUST do that, then I'm probably screwed.

Again, no offense towards anyone or any beliefs.

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Bill in Dayton

Agree. Smart too. I've yet to meet a low IQ Atheist, but I've met a helluva lot of dumb devoutly religious types (just go to any Palin rally ).

I think Spiritualism (like religion) is a way of making peace with the things we don't understand (and are unlikely to ever find out in our lifetime). A way to explain or express why we'd rather do 'good' than 'bad', why we have a 'conscience', why we feel good when we do something that we perceive as 'good', when we help someone for no reason at all, when we marvel at the beauty of a sunny day or the vastness of a clear, starry night. We feel spiritual when, while walking alone through the woods, we spot a solitary Ladyslipper, happily blooming away and not caring whether anyone is there to watch it. We feel spiritual when we observe the 'miracle of life' as expressed by the birth of our own children (or the death of our parents or loved ones.

Who hasn't wondered if that's all there is (death), and if we can't accept that, then we need to believe in an afterlife in order to cope. Else, why be 'good'. What is the 'reward' for being 'good' just for the sake of being 'good'. What are the (afterlife) consequences of being 'bad'?

Many of the lessons that organized religion teaches us are not only valuable, but practical, as well. But I believe that they are the crystalization of centuries of human experience. Accomodation, 'live and let live', mutual protection, teritorial defense, the need to reproduce (species survival), etc., etc., are all either instinctive or learned, and refined over time to produce the best chance for survival.

Bill, there is a reason you have questions or doubt. It's what keeps you from being a 'sheep'. Except for the fact that we don't proselytize, I'd say that you'd be a good fit in a Unitarian/Universalist 'church'. There is an easy way to pick out your average Unitarian; If you see a group of people walking along a road, and they come to a fork in the road and one sign says 'Heaven', and the other sign says 'Discussion about Heaven', well.......... (you get the idea ). But despite their healthy skepticism about religious matters, you will usually find them at the forefront of the social issues that continue to plague us as a society. Idealogically, they are very similar to the Ethical Society.

Anyhoo, keep doing what you're doing. In the end, you'll be remembered fondly (our version of an afterlife ). If it turns out that there really are Pearly Gates, then you'll get there too, so you can't lose.

chas

I think that this is one of the most unbelievable threads I've ever seen. My friends who participated...A Buddhist (Taike), an Atheist (Chas),and a devout Christian (Rory) come from vastly different orientations, all making their points during one of the most potentially volatile discussions ever, here; all in an intelligent, articulate manner, with no resulting hard feelings or animosity, in spite of some really fundamental differences in basic beliefs.

Then, add the well reasoned, questioning, completely honest and frank responses of Bill, a guy I'm respecting more as time goes on for his thoughtful, rational thinking process.

This has been a delight to observe.

Thanks, GENTLEMEN!

R.

I do find it interesting that a reasonable person can talk only about the genocide, rape and theft of poor people's money or whatever, and have absolutely no mention or clue about very good and noble things the church has done over the centuries as well. Bitterness has a way of turning things one-sided rather intensely.

Rory, I'm not so sure it's bitterness, but the expectation that, because of the stated purpose(s) of organized religion(s), people expect the good (as part of the mission of the organizations)and are disappointed; even demoralized by the well documented but always unexpected bad. History does not lie. From the Crusades through the current child abuse issues, bad stuff like this is never right. Any religious connection makes it worse, in my opinion. In over 40 years of dealing with non-profits, the majority of problems (infighting, theft, non-payment, etc.)I have encountered have been organizations with well defined religious affiliations. This is not an effort to trash or discredit organized religions at all, but rather an indication of disappointment at issues involving religious organizations that are far to common.

Sad, really sad.


Russ

I, for one, am very quick to acknowledge the good things that the church has done. I don't believe that the civil rights and liberties that I enjoy today (in this country) would be in place now if not for the church's involvement in the Civil Rights movement. I applaud the church for that; it's the 'Voodoo' part that I have a problem with; that, and the very high position in which it has placed itself in controlling our lives. I'm also not willing to turn a blind eye to the church's failings either; the terror tactics of Islamic extremist, the rampant pedophilia in the Catholic church, the hate speak of the Christian far right. They are all examples of a sound ideology being manipulated to excuse doing harm to others. The Klan (KKK) claims to base their ideology on Christian principles, yet I can't seem to find which of those principles condones the murdering of innocent people (while bringing their small children to watch and participate in the spectacle, thus insuring a new generation of haters).

So Rory, like everything else, the church can be both good and bad. I can accept that. What I can't accept is that it be mandatory. Freedom for all, I say, especially freedom of thought.

chas

In the end..an atheist may be the dumbest of all...

Also, the odds are no one dies an atheist...there may be a true glimpse of the true at the end..

My thoughts are more like Rory and Bill's view..

And I also believe God has given each of us a free will....and the "bible" should not be taken lightly , while making our decision to apply free will..

Well I guess it was inevitable. Sooner or later, an intellectual debate has to come to an end.

So you're saying that if someone (me, in this case) doesn't believe what you believe, they're "dumb". So God gave us 'free will' as long as we don't exercise it, is that the gist of it? Hey, nobody called Rory dumb. Nobody called Russ dumb. No one called Taike dumb. In fact, nobody called ANYBODY dumb........until now.

Sorry Russ, you should have saved your congratulations until after the 'smart' people checked in. But thanks, Fran, you really proved my point. Hey listen, feel free to believe whatever you want, concerning the existence of God, just extend the same courtesy to others. Or do you feel as though it's your 'mission' to save me?

chas

YES!!!!...

To the point that Fran made (albeit a little clumsily.)

Death bed conversions are probably common and I wonder if in that moment, will I all of a sudden have a profound change of heart? Will it be out of fear? Out of enlightenment?

I know people often find comfort in their faith when their lives take a painful turn. After my Mom died a few years ago, my younger sister really became a "strong Christian." Which is fine for her. When others get news of a terminal illness or an accident or some other hardship often they'll turn to "God" for strength.

I'm wanting to see the guy that finds out he's just won 30 million on the Super Lotto and immediately announces that Christ has entered his life.

I'm over exaggerating of course, but why don't more people seem to get close to "God" when they're doing great?

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 05-20-2010).]

I was brought up in a catholic environment, went to catholic schools, etc. Yet nowhere or not once did I ever witness "free agency". You either were or weren't and fire and brimstone awaited those that weren't.

What I did witness was the hatred between those that praised the same god, read the same "good" book, but were of different denominations; catholic vs. protestant, mormon vs. all the rest, etc. Everyone denouncing everyone else's belief and proclaiming that theirs is the "true" church.

Buddhism doesn't have this. Zen Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, basically every other branch of Buddhism, gets along and respects each other for their principles remain the same. The main differences are certain ceremonies or those that are strictly vegan and those that aren't. Some Buddhists, for instance, are strictly vegan, don't even eat garlic and onions, while in Laos, even monks, eat anything, meat included. They're, however, forbidden from killing animals. But those differences aren't frowned upon as one expects differences due to different cultures.

Fran, since you've joined the conversation and mentioned the bible, how well do you know the scriptures? But more importantly, how closely do you "live" the scriptures?

I've had many conversations with atheists and, believe me, they're far more knowledgable about the scriptures than most believers that barely have an idea what's written in it. So far I've never met a "dumb" atheist.

When I was in high school I questioned a bishop. I asked him why he was telling us to give donations and live frugal lives while he was living in a manson and had a handful of servants at his disposal. And why he had such a high salary. You see, I'd done my homework. All I got from him was a really dirty look and silence before I was literally thrown out of the church by a couple of teachers.

If one can't question, then how can one understand. If one doesn't understand, how can one believe? To answer a question with a quote that can be answered with another quote that tells the opposite and so on and on... still leaves me without a clear answer. Belief is something entirely personal; it can't be taken away unless YOU let it. It can't be influenced unless YOU let it.

No devil ever made me do anything that I wasn't prepared to do. While I may have felt sorry about it later on, the blame was on me. And for every good deed that I've done, it was of my own doing. I guess that's why we have prisons. Or everyone would be saying "the devil made me do it so you have nothing against me".

If all it takes is a deathbed conversion, then why even bother with religion?

Good things... I prefer to believe that individuals do good things but organizations (churches) tend to take full credit. Take Mother Teresa. She did far more on her own then did the entire Vatican.

Civil Rights... it was still individuals who stood up, with or without backing of the church.

A church should be without wealth!

Taike



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Bo pen nyang.

"With or without the backing of the church?" What is that supposed to mean? The church is made up of individuals. A group of individuals. It's not an object, it's people. A group can accomplish more than an individual. Something to be said for having the backup of your friends of common belief, accountability, support. Maybe like playing an arranger; you can do it as an individual and accomplish quite a bit, but an arranger big band style isn't like a 17 piece orchestra. The concept of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts comes to mind.

Yes, Mother teresa was an individual, but she herself wouldn't say she did what she accomplished under her own power. She wouldn't have done what she did if she didn't think that it was for a greater good and a higher calling, rather than herself just feeling good about doing something nice for somebody.

Nope, the devil can't make you do something, but he might have a lot of influence on a compromised mind. God chooses not to make people do anything either, but many teachings of many faiths are pretty clear that there are rewards, both now and after, for those who try to live righteously. Whatever people do in the name of religion isn't really god's fault. God is God regardless what we do. Some people invoke God's name or concept to very ill ends, but that's their problem they'll have to reckon with. Some non believers are much better people than some who profess faith, no question.

And, who exactly DOES have the right to be wealthy? Not church, not oil barons, not investment bankers, not lawyers, not insurance companies, not drug companies, not right wing talk radio guys. Nobody, apparently.

Ironically, there is only one level of separation between and Atheist and a believer. Atheists can't quite understand where everything came from. I mean, it takes a lot of faith to believe in a big random bang that made all of this happen. Whereas believers have found that answer, God made it. But, that begs the question, what made God. Hmmm. Every religion is a very long way off from a full understanding of what God is. And any real scientist knows they are a hell of a long way from a full understanding of what the universe is and how it works too. Yet there are those in both camps who very confidently say they pretty much have it figured out. Al Gore knows everything there is to know about how our planet's climate works, and my dad is pretty sure he has a better understanding of God than most anybody. I think they're both due for a big surprise.


[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-21-2010).]

Well, looks like we're finally back on track. The last three posts were all great, and I think it's because all had an element of open-mindedness. Each was able to get away from the 'true believer' mantra and either stated or implied that perhaps they didn't have all the answers. That's a great start for a civil discussion on ANY subject, but especially any discussion involving religion. But the second someone comes in and starts making 'absolute' pronouncements, that's when it all goes south and the civility ends.

Rory's last post was honest, thought-provoking, and really made me sorry that I didn't get a chance to meet him in person at Summer Namm. I tend to migrate towards people who are bright enough to know a lot but are still quick to acknowledge that they don't know everything, and that there ARE no 'absolute truths'.

I am not anti-religious, but I'm also not pro-religious. I believe that for some people, it serves as a guide to how they should live their lives. I think others are able to figure it out for themselves. I guess what I have a problem with is the concept of worship. Even if there were some higher life-form, why should I bow down and worship it? I can see trying to reach the same intellectual level as this more advanced super-being. But I can't see any motive for worshiping it other than fear of what it might do to us.....and in fact, isn't that precisely what most Judea-Christian religions tries to instill in us at a very early age?

The church needs believers and it needs to convert non-believers. It could not exist without them. If one looked objectively at the Catholic Church, you would have to conclude that it was ultimately about power, influence, and wealth. But only for the church's hierarchy. How else can one explain the enormous fortune amassed by the church while millions of it's most devout followers (particularly in South American countries) languish in abject poverty.

I guess, like Bill, that there probably is a 'spiritual' element to our psyche, I'm just not sure about it's origin.

As to Fran's 'no Atheist in a foxhole' theory, all I can say is that if it takes a life-threatening situation to suddenly make you a true believer, then God may question your sincerity. But hey, what've you got to lose........except your character.

chas

Often a discussion on this subject migrates towards a existentialist area. I have my reality, you have yours. If they overlap great, but its not necessary.

With growth and size of most anything worldly, comes unintended consequences and sometimes outright corruption.

All the great faiths seem to focus much on helping the poor, the weak, etc. in both spiritual and materialistic ways. There was a great movie back in the 80's called "The Mission" with Jeremy Irons, Robert DeNiro in it that really effected my views on organized religion and faith.

For all the quiet, dignified work that the Catholic Church has done through the years, right now the focus is, rightfully, on the Pedophilia problem. While not a Catholic, common sense tells me they should move faster, not slower to rid their house of that plague. Due process is important, witch hunts do no one any good, but I think there's a perception that the Church engaged in denial for far too long, at a potentially high price.

I understand the Biblical direction to go forward and spread the message, but that's where I find a problem. Raised a Methodist, I was taught that God is always with me. he knows my thoughts, my fears, my joys, etc. I can talk to him/with him anytime of my choosing. Location is not important. However, attending Church allows one to participate and enjoy the rituals of the Methodist faith. As I said before, churches in this area/in this time seem more confrontational. And that's a turn off. How did we get from "God is with you always, just talk to him and listen" to "No! Unless you say this and that, you will never know the glory of the lord!" Those two thoughts don't reconcile well in my mind.

The God I grew up with was inclusive. If a Man lives his life as virtuously as possible he will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven. JC helps all those weak to be strong. The God I hear far too much about today seems to be the president of a very exclusive club. And the membership fees ain't cheap.

Make no mistake, I have plenty of doubts about this whole affair. I do tend to think that the further we take a person's experience with God away from a highly personal one to more of a group or organizational experience, for me at least, it just doesn't resonate.

Here's a contradiction to that...Having been to a Catholic service a few times and having paid attention to when we replace the Pope, I have to admit that the grandeur and the ritual is alluring. It draws you in because in many ways, I'd like to be part of that. It seems very impressive.

The struggle continues, lol...



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Bill in Dayton

Rory-I agreed with a great deal of the rest of this post, and would like to respond to this remark.I'm fearful that this is more of a political direction and might water down the discussion we're having on Theology.

Do you mind if I create a Political thread and move this there?

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Bill in Dayton

Sure Bill, start a new thread. I'd really like to know some opinions on that. Since Taike mentioned the wealth of the church, I just threw it in here, but feel free to move it.

Chas said:

I guess what I have a problem with is the concept of worship. Even if there were some higher life-form,
why should I bow down and worship it? I can see trying to reach the same intellectual level as this more advanced super-being. But I can't see any motive
for worshiping it other than fear of what it might do to us.....and in fact, isn't that precisely what most Judea-Christian religions tries to instill
in us at a very early age?

OK, try your hardest to reach the same intellectual ability. The moment you figure out how to create one totally new atom, forget a universe, let me know. Yeah, maybe you can rearrange the atoms that are already here and turn them into a car, computer, pencil, but how about just adding one totally new atom, one speck of new energy. Then, once you've done that, try to make one microbe from scratch. One tree, one planet, one galaxy, one universe. Something tells me it's going to be a little while yet before we match God on an intellectual level.

Worship? I'd say so. That's just supreme admiration. You admire your favorite organist. how about if you met someone 10 times smarter than you, with an IQ of maybe 1200. Now how about 12000, 12000000000? I'd say a little worship might not be inappropriate.

And it isn't really about being scared of what might happen if I don't. I mean, I'm scared of what might happen to me if I try to live by eating a vat of lard and nothing else. But it's not fear of what would happen that keeps me from doing that. It just seems like a dumb thing to do. Same with ignoring God. Just doesn't seem to me like it's a good idea. Yeah, I don't really want to experience Hell, whatever that is, but it's not because I live in constant fear of pissing God off that I honor Him.

Rory, in your example, aren't you really saying that "all that we see or seem" comes down to science? Sure, a science far more advanced than what we've been able to master (so far), but still, just science.

Let's face it. You either believe in God or you don't. Since neither point of view can be proven or dis-proven within the scope of our (current) understanding, we can only rely on blind faith that the 'fairy tales' that our parents told us are true, OR, what our senses and intellect are capable of understanding. Religion has a function and a purpose, no doubt about it; but IMO, that function is not to educate or inform, but to substitute fiction for the pursuit of real scientific explanations for the things we are not yet able to understand. If 'all will be made known to us' after we get to heaven, then we'd better arrive in heaven with a much bigger IQ than what we left earth with. I can just picture God trying to explain the physics of time travel or the concept of infinity to my wife. I think you might see some God-size frustration .

Maybe worship is just super admiration, but why then do most of the major religions hint at dire consequences if you don't. In your 'favorite organist' example, what if Joe Blow doesn't really care for Jimmy Smith? Should I insist that he like Jimmy? Should I insist that EVERYBODY like Jimmy? Should I slaughter a few goats in his honor? How about a few million people? Should I tell all the little kids that the only way to Carnegie Hall is through Jimmy Smith (okay, now I'm getting a little silly ).

When we travel as far as we can go, when we reach the edge of the universe, what's on the other side? What is infinity, what is nothingness? I really want to know, not just explained away with gobbledegook. We now know that 'love' between two people has more to do with the science of chemistry than anything else. That's a start. Let's build on that. BTW, I AM starting to get the hang of infinity. A good example would be a debate on the existence of God .

There are so many things in the Bible that are downright amusing. Take the Virgin Birth for instance. Think that story would 'fly' in 2010? First of all, how many married women are virgins? And God, master of the Universe (and beyond, wherever that is) which (according to Stephen Hawking) contains approximately 180 billion galaxies, came down to this speck of dust (planet earth) and zeroed in on a single (married) female to mate with with the express purpose of sacrificing him to the locals so we wouldn't have to pay for our 'sins'. Wow, even Gene Roddenberry couldn't make that one up. Gotta give the church credit though, they're imaginative if nothing else. Is this blasphemy? Well, no, only if you believe. I don't. BUT, I do respect your right to believe whatever you like, as long as you don't insist that I have to do the same.

chas

Hmm, well, I guess if Jimmy Smith was immortal, and if he had built Carnegie hall and made all the decisions for who plays there, then you might indeed have to tell all the little children that in order to get to Carnegie Hall you gotta go through Jimmy Smith.

What's the current estimation now about how much of our brains we actually know what it does or indeed if it is even being used? Seems like we have well over 3 4ths of our brain that is still untapped which might go a long way to understanding some God concepts in time, so there might be hope for your wife yet.

And, it isn't all about science; it's about life. A recent example, which probably won't resonate with Chas specifically, but maybe with someone watching the thread.

I recently lost 2 of my best jobs working as a musician here in Nashville. The 2-time world champ bull rider turned country singer Justin McBride, just dropped his whole band in March and got a different crew. And, the Marty Robins tribute show that would be really good pay for one-offs and not bad steady pay for 3 weeks at a time just did its last show in March too. So just like that, lost 2 of my jobs which ain't easy to come by in Nashville. Well crud, now what? Well, just by pure luck, I'm sure God had absolutely nothing to do with it, (yeah right) I was contacted by 2 people who wanted me to produce records for them. Keep in mind, these are the first records I have produced since moving to Nashville 2 years ago. I used to do some back in SD. Well, suddenly I had a record to do in April, and one to do in May. Oh, and it just so happened that a small inheritance that has been in limbo for the past I don't know how many years, but I wasn't even of age when the guy died, but he was a very good friend of the family and used to make cassette tapes for me of his old record collection. Anyway, I'd totally forgotten I was even in the inheritance, but my parents get a phone call to get my current info because there's a small sum of money due me and my siblings from his very modest estate. Huh. So 2 unexpected records, and an inheritance comes to me right when I needed the cash flow most. Guess it just totally randomly happened to work out that way. I choose not to thik so.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-22-2010).]

How about, you got the two producing jobs because you're very good at what you do and a lot of people around Nashville know that. And the inheritance? Timing, that's all...plus a little luck. I still believe in luck .

chas

PS: almost forgot. Was God also responsible for you losing the two great jobs in the first place. You can't credit him with all the good stuff and none of the bad. That's not fair .

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 05-22-2010).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cgiles:
[B]How about, you got the two producing jobs because you're very good at what you do and a lot of people around Nashville know that.

Yup, I'll buy that. But, they might have asked me months ago when I wasn't feeling the crunch, or a year from now. How cool that it just happened to work out at this time when I have no roade work.

And the inheritance? Timing, that's all...plus a little luck. I still believe in luck .

Yup, seems like I got lucky all right.

chas

PS: almost forgot. Was God also responsible for you losing the two great jobs in the first place. You can't credit him with all the good stuff and none of the bad. That's not fair .

In a way, maybe he was. The bull rider gig was not very rewarding, and playing for a largely drunk audience, and often a largely drunk artist, just wasn't exactly my ideal situation. And the tribute sho, it got shut down. there's stuff going on there that I don't know much about and don't care to get into what little I do know. So it wasn't God who really caused me to lose that job, but it probably was him working behind the scenes to start getting my backup plan in place. I have no idea what kinds of spiritual things were going on in the background. How long these people had been thinking of doing records, trying to decide who they wanted to produce for them; and of course God didn't "make them" choose me, but just some little nudges of spiritual influence here and there, just seems to add up.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-22-2010).]

Rory-

I'm envious of people, who like yourself, seem to have a peaceful comprehension of God and our relationship with him. I will say if I possessed that same level of "faith" I wouldn't be disturbed by it. However, whether its "God's Will" or something more secular in nature, I don't, so I won't pretend I do. That's not to say I don't believe in God, I just have lots of questions. Questions that perhaps, God wants me to have.

I also thought immediately when reading about your new musical work, was God responsible in your losing your other two gigs? Was it all part of the plan? A lot of people I know who are strong in their faith say flat out everything is God's Will. Good stuff and bad stuff. Except when it comes to personal failures. (Yes, we're on a real slippery slope right now.)

Perhaps God wanted you to lose those 2 jobs so you would then take this new one? Great...

What if you fail in some other area? Cheat on your Wife, lie to a friend, whatever. Was that God's will also? Why would God want a husband to cheat on his wife? Happens all the time.

This is just one area where I can't seem to sort it out. Either God is responsible for everything, good and bad OR, we have free will and its on us, both good and bad.

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Bill in Dayton

Re: Creationism comments...

Of course the group of people who prefer the Biblical/Theological explanation of creationism are going to have a profound respect, awe, whatever for whatever force or power made all of this. On the other hand, there are reasonable, intelligent men who believe there is a scientific explanation for all of this. There are also some in the intellectual middle who try and almost seek a compromise.

Regarding what percentage of our brain is actually used, its quite high. Neurologists have mapped out the brain and identified the various functions that different regions control.

What's immeasurable though, is the capacity of the human mind. On that, I've never heard any serious claims of limits, except in the cases of brain disorders, either from congenital issues or injury.

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Bill in Dayton

I don't know why it has to be exclusively one or the other. I can't say that God WANTED me to lose those jobs, or FORCED those jobs to end. After all, I wasn't the only person affected by that. The other people who worked on these jobs also lost them. But, in my case, some unexpected things happened just when I needed them to. But it's not such a straight line, "God wanted this to happen, so it happened, and then God wanted that to happen, so that happened" It's all kinds of lives and situations playing out in different ways. Sure, we have free will, but in some way the big plan gets done.

Kind of like me producing these records. I have people in mind I want to hire, but they have free will whether to take the job or not. If they don't, I can find someone else, because the big picture will be accomplished.
Then, once I've hired them, I'm not going to dictate every single note they play. They are going to use their judgement and play what seems right, and I'll either like it or suggest they try something else. I'll direct and influence the general direction, but I won't plan out every note played by every person. But still the big picture will be accomplished.

Does the big plan get done the way the big guy wants? Let's say the project is successful and it sells 800 thousand CD's. Did God control that? I've heard Christian artists on TV commenting about their new hit album that, "...God has really helped it be successful, he gets all the credit."

Do the Christian artists that churn out a poor selling CD say the same thing?

It seems almost an ala carte way to consider responsibility for some things. I'm over simplifying, of course, but how do we know?

For me, and boy I don't know if this is right or not, I feel like there's a gentle guidance, that might be spiritual in nature. many times I've had to choose between A or B and often made the right choice. Is it just because I'm a thoughtful, smart guy to begin with so I'm inclined to avoid major errors OR is it his guiding hand? Or, a blend of both. Some souls can consider a presence, even without knowing its identity and accept the implied wisdom within. Other, seem deaf to all obvious around them.

I feel like President Bartlett from the West Wing sometimes...(Watch the clip below)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX6wOOJy0hk

The background is that the president is struggling on whether to commute a death sentence to someone who was to be executed that night, unless the President stepped in. Pr. Bartlett asked his priest to come see him as he made his mind up.

Like I said, Faith is a helluva thing and I envy those for whom this is easy to accept.

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 05-22-2010).]

Wow, I'm glad you guys know all of this stuff. With an entire Universe to run, God must have one heck of a capacity for micro-managing if he can intercede in your getting a gig or not; or whether you caught that touchdown pass or hit that three pointer with 1 second on the clock. Stranger still when it seems he has paid scant notice to the recent and past genocides going on around the world, not to mention the wars raging in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oh well, I guess he has his priorities.

Maybe we spend too much time on religion and not enough on morality. A lot of bad things can happen while we sit around waiting for God to fix it. If we all just treated each other with the same dignity and respect that we would like for ourselves, the world would immediately be 10 times better than it is right now.

chas

So we're back to genocides again eh? Didn't take long to revive that.
Personally, I'm not living in that situation, so I really don't have much knowledge about what God is doing in those situations. How about asking the missionaries that visit some of those places? I'm not qualified to say what God's up to in far reaches of the globe. It's still free will, ruled largely by natural events. Wolves still kill deer, some people still kill other people. God really doesn't go around zapping all the bad people. There are evil spiritual influences in the world too, not just God. As I said earlier, there's a difference between God's perfect will and what God allows to happen that really doesn't make his day. How could there be free will if there wasn't evil?

No, not every gig I get is divinely appointed. Far from it, and I thought I'd made that clear. The point was the big picture. I'm doing what I can to take care of myself, and treat people well. I'm not sitting around waiting for god to "Fix" things. But when stuff shows up that I had nothing to do with, and it blesses my life, just maybe there was influences beyond my own doing that helped.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-22-2010).]

Darn, the Republicans lucked out again .

chas

So why the need to believe in something if neither we nor "God" have any control? It seems to me that "God" only has control when we're dead? Yet, according to the bible God had control and did enjoy zapping or drowning people. I doubt that there weren't any children in Sodom and Gomorrah. What about the Great Flood? How many children and innocent people drowned then? Wouldn't that make him a mass murderer?

Finally, if God created everything, didn't he create "evil" as well? Lucifer's jealousy had to be created by God. Sin had to be God's creation. I mean, how can something evolve when it's not created?

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 05-26-2010).]

There is some debate whether those Bible stories are litteral events or not. Many believe they were. Let's just go on that assumption.

How did the Sodom and Gomorrah story go? I mean, prior to the zapping part. Was there not someone pleading the case for the people? If you find 1000 righteous people will you spare the city? 100? 10? 1? And did not God agree to spare the city if there were indeed righteous people living there?

How about the flood? Did Noah preach for a hundred years or however long it took him to build the boat? Did he not take all kinds of criticism for doing what he did, but he tried anyway to reach the people?
As far as the children, if there were no righteous adults, then the children had no hope of learning. So there was no chance that they would mend their ways because there was noone to teach them. So in consequence, the children weren't exactly innocent. However, they were definitely more innocent than the adults, so my guess is that their spirits or souls were protected. They enjoyed a much happier afterlife than the adults did, and a much happier afterlife than they would have enjoyed if they had gone on to become just like the generation before them, so you could say they actually were spared.

Furthermore, those were old testament stories, and according to Christianity, a lot of things changed after Christ. No more need for sacrifices and wild exhibitions of God's wrath, that's the whole point of what Christ came for.

So any kid that gets murdered should be grateful for having a better afterlife instead of growing up and becoming a "bad" person? What constitutes "bad"? That pretty much abolishes free agency.

Old Testament, New Testament...it's still part of the Bible and isn't the Bible called the Holy Writ, The Word Of God, The Good Book?

Genesis is the first chapter of the Old Testament, right? Are you saying that Creation is just a story? As for me, the Big Bang theory makes a lot more sense.

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 05-27-2010).]

Uh, like the tsunami in the Indian Ocean that killed nearly 230,000 people in fourteen countries, or the earthquake that killed 500,000 in Haiti, or Hurricane Katrina, or....oh never mind, I guess those were just a few bumps in the road.

What, you're not buying this, Taike? Golly gee, I wonder why. It all seems so clear now. Probably just the Devil up to his old tricks.



Ummmm, I guess Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, and a few others didn't get the memo. Oh well, mistakes happen.

Guns and Bibles, nah, I think I'll just continue to 'cling' to my pen and my copy of ANTI-INTELLETUALISM IN AMERICA.

chas

Sometimes I get the feeling that people aren't even trying to understand. More interested in making some perceived pithy point. Last I checked, Hitler's story hasn't made it into any version of the Bible as an example of how Christianity should be lived out. So yeah, I'd say Hitler definitely didn't get the message. I have no idea where this concept grew from that if God exists, only sunshine and flowers will exist on the earth. And because there is more than sunshine and flowers then God doesn't exist. I absolutely cannot follow the arguements in the previous post.
As to creation, I very much doubt it all happened in 6 litteral days. To me, it's more of a story that lets us know that this entire universe does have an element of control, and isn't just one huge random experience. But then, I've never had the opportunity to be God for a day so I don't really know how much I could get done in 1 day if I really set my mind to it. The Bible was written by men after all. And that is one of the areas where I part from hardline Christianity. Because many religions claim that their understanding is correct and the only true understanding; but for me it really isn't an all or nothing. Either every religion is totally wrong or totally right doesn't add up.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-27-2010).]

I DO try to understand. At my age, I have more reason to hope for an afterlife than you do . But I have to listen to what makes sense to me. I think the spiritualism that Bill alluded to, and that appears to reside to some degree in all of us, feeds into this need to believe that there is a force greater than ourselves. In fact, most of us, including me, believes that. I'm just not sure that that 'force' has blue eyes and nordic features and is watching every move that I make. Especially the last part . In any case, you seem to be taking a somewhat 'softer' stance on the absoluteness of your religious beliefs. I'm not saying that there is no God, I'm just saying that I don't BELIEVE that there is one.

Will I ever 'see the light'? No, I won't. I'm an old man with lots of life experiences. It never made sense before and it still doesn't (to me). I grew up in a home where neither parent showed even an inkling of interest in religion (but they did love Basie and Ellington and Billie and Sarah and Ella). As a high school principal in Wash., DC, my mother went to church occasionally but I never saw anything even remotely religious (or even spiritual) about her. My father was pretty much a carbon copy of me (but wittier). If there really is a Heaven, I doubt seriously if either of them made it. Wherever they went, I'll likely be joining them.

To me, choosing religion over logic, reason, scientific evidence, and plain old common sense, is very akin to choosing (as your primary instrument) an arranger over a Steinway grand. You can fake being a good musician or you can BE a good musician. The arranger (God) can do all the work for you, or the Steinway (your brain) can force you to make some decisions for yourself. Each approach is legitimate but one will always work better for some people than others.

BTW, nothing 'pithy' about a dissertation as long as this one .

chas

Why do people pray?

If their wish gets granted it's because God had answered their prayer.

If their wish doesn't get granted it's because God has other plans for them.

If a sick person prays and gets well it's because god has answered his/her prayer.

If an amputee prays he/her prayers are NEVER granted, no matter how good and spiritual person he/she may be.

Why are their so many starving people on earth?

Why do most "Christians" ignore all those starving people?

If earth was created by God, then why do so many Christians do their best to destroy it?

If we're to turn the other cheek, why are we constantly at war?

If we're to turn the other cheek, why is their so much death and revenge in the Bible?

If Adam, Even, Cain and Abel were the first human beings, how did earth get populated?

............................................

I could go on and on... and no one would ever be able to give me a convincing answer.

On one hand we're to take every word literally and on the other hand we have to take it with a grain of salt, albeit only those parts that we can't agree on.

Did Jesus live? If he did, I prefer to think of him as a healer/prophet. He was one of many, in fact. But why did
Josephus Flavius barely mention him in his writings?

Christianity stole/borrowed a lot from other religions: it's pretty well documented.

But what gets me the most is the "hypocracy" of most of its believers.

Look, if I mess up it's because I messed up and the only one to blame is myself. If I gamble and lose all my money it's because I played the devil's game. Yet if I hit the jackpot...well...

Why are christians monogamous if it's perfectly alright to have lots of wives according the Bible. Yet we are supposed to do the "Christian" thing. So doesn't that mean that human laws are above the word of God?

So far I've not had ONE clear and convincing answer, here or anywhere.

Make a book as confusing as possible and it's easy to get every answer right. You answer a question with a quote that, when countered with another quote, gets countered with yet another quote, and so on and on... and the winner will be the one who can counter the most times. It's like being on trial: it's not the law that gets you off but the most convincing lawyer. Truth hardly matters.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 05-27-2010).]

If your child asks you, "daddy, can I go to my friend's house and play?"
if you say yes, you granted his request.
if you say no, you had other plans for him.
So he should just never ask. Correct? What if you said yes to him yesterday but no tomorrow? Then you're psychopathic and can't give a straight answer.
What if you're teaching him to ride a bike and he falls off and skins his knee? Do you enjoy torturing your child and purposely letting him get hurt?

What if you gave your wife a diamond last year for your anniversary? But this year you just do flowers and a nice dinner? Why do you love her less this year than you did last year?

If you go to visit your friend in the hospital, why don't you visit every patient? Why doo you hate everyone else? Are they less important?

If you were God, what would you do? Make sure nobody does anything stupid, make every day all over the planet a nice spring day? All the birds would sing in harmony, mosquitos wouldn't bite? Is that your idea of what God should be doing, and since he's not doing it, then there is no God? This is just so peculiar to me.

Or if your gripe is with Christianity specifically, then since I'm a Christian, I shouldn't go to work tomorrow, but rather I should be required to sell everything I have and donate it all to the local food bank. And I should walk everywhere I go and eat only carrots. I'm just totally baffled by the reasoning I've been seeing in this thread lately.

If I were God and the creator of life, I'd certainly not let anyone suffer.

If I have to suffer from an incurable disease, or lose my family to a freak accident, murder or whatever, and someone tells me it's God testing me, he/she would be "tested by me.

This is not about being anti-Christian. Rather it's about Christians being against all non-believers. Heck, they even hate each other.

Still, how come there are so many similarities between Christianity and beliefs that were before Jesus? My other questions also remain unanswered. How come that so many prophets were born on 25 December, born of a virgin, performed similar miracles, etc.

How do YOU know it's not all a hoax?



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Bo pen nyang.

You didn't answer any of my questions either. But they weren't so dissimilar from those you were asking about God and Christianity. That's because when I ask them about you it's easy to see how I have skewed logic, but when they're asked about God somehow it seems like a great argument designed to trip people up. You know, if I were able to go through and answer every one of these questions of yours, all except one, then as long as that one remained unanswered you'd still have your case and would be as set in your disgust for Christians as ever. If suddenly there were no more disease, you'd still have it out for Christians because they haven't stopped genocides. If suddenly there were no genocides, you'd still have it against God that there was starving. If there were no starving, you'd still believe the whole thing was a hoax because your town got flooded.
Somehow you want me to be able to take faith out of religion. In other words, explain away every gripe you have with logic and reason, and until that's done, the whole thing is a sham.



[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-28-2010).]

I'd call that a fairly moderate, somewhat mainstream view. That feels about right with me. On the other hand, people who are of a stronger faith than I would say its too weak of a stance.

I think Rory's kind of hit on one of the things I'm uncomfortable about Faith/Religion. The hardline stance just doesn't jive well with so many people. According to some Churches in my area of Ohio, it seems like the hundreds of people I worshiped with in my Church back in Penn Hills, PA during the 70's aren't quite "Christian enough." And therefore may be on the outside looking in when the time comes. Which I think is crap. I don't buy that all the people in THIS Church are right, but the ones in THAT Church are wrong. It just doesn't add up.

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Bill in Dayton

These questions make no sense to me (in this thread). Sorry! You can't read my mind so you don't know what I'm thinking. And what's so wrong about talking about genocide?


Please don't tell me that I have something against Christians for I don't. But quite a few sure have something against me for NOT following their faith. All too often have I heard that they feel sorry for me, that hell's awaiting for me if I don't repent. Repent? Because I am not a believer? No, I don't hate Christians. I just dislike people like that acting like they have all the answers and tell me what to do with my life, how it may affect my family, what will happen in my afterlife (if there's any). Hey, I talk to missionaries that approach me. And whenever I tell them that I am not a believer I get to hear the fire and brimstone crap. And I shouldn't even mention another church for those have it all wrong. If they claim that the bible has all the answers then I am entitled to ask my questions and be given a genuine answer, something that makes sense. I don't believe in blind faith although that's what they expect me to do.

I do think, that if someone believes in the Creation of the universe and life, and knows that it is true, answering some basic questions should be a simple matter.

Moderate or hardliner... if you believe, shouldn't you believe all the way. Or is it a matter of convenience? After all, you're all reading from the same book. Those that think they're the real deal are merely acting against their own belief and too blind to notice it.

To each his/her own belief. Just don't assume that one has all the answers and woe those that don't believe. But those that don't believe aren't necessarily against those that do. We're not all like G.W.Bush.

In closing, I am not a good person. I mean, I do plenty of bad stuff. Yet, I do good deeds as well. At least, I believe I do. Well, it's not really that much and certainly not something to write home about (If I did they'd send the guys in white jackets after me). I pay for the education of a couple of young men, give to the needy and those that need a hand. In fact, several times I've given all I had so that others may have a better life. It's made my life harder and I've been called a "total nut" more than once. Yet, at least I try to do my part instead of just talking religion. I just wish that there was more genuine compassion, that people would really care instead of merely feeling sorry or blaming the misfortune of others as self-inflicted. See, what's important to me are deeds, not words. Give a helping hand, make people count, give a beggar the same respect as you would a doctor or teacher. One doesn't need religion for that.

Anyway, let's not argue. My apologies if I came over like that.

Peace!

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 05-28-2010).]

Three very close friends are the main participants here. They are expressing vastly different points of view. All three have eloquently stated their opinions. I would not expect any one of them to change their attitudes or beliefs.

Everything has been said. Maybe it's time to respect the other right to their opinion, appreciate the articulate manner in which opinions were detailed; then move on.

My personal thanks To Taike, Chas and Rory for being courteous and not taking the "short cuts" that these ultra sensitive discussions sometimes generate, while still holding firm on your positions.

With respect,


Russ

Does kinda' make you wonder what 'God' was thinking, here.
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100615/...io-Jesus-statue

chas (afraid to put a 'smiley' here)

R

I actually drive by that thing several times a month...in fact tomorrow I'll go right by it...

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Bill in Dayton

You sir , When you stand before the judgement seat of the Lord you will know that there surely is a God. He and he alone is the maker and creator of all things. I can asure you that He is a God of mercy and grace to all who seek Him and want to know His will. If you don't read the new testament and ask God to reveal the truth to you and just believe things you have heard on some program by people who don't know any more than you do, then how can you say that you are an atheist. You must understand the workings of the devil and the workings of the Lord. Time and space would not allow me to tell of all the things that God has done for me and my family through prayer. I don't really want a comeback from you or anybody else on the zone because all of us have an argument as to why we believe what we do. You should really take a long hard thought at the things you say, remember this , if you are wrong there is an enormous price to pay, The devil is out to steal and to destroy but his fate is sealed. So I say to you all, be wise and at least read the new testament starting in St. John and then going back to Mathew and read it all. Your eternal soul depends on it. Just try God with a pure heart and don't worry what the rest of the world thinks or believes, and if you do that I garentee you will find a peace and a joy that you've never known before . What is it for a man to gain the whole world and loose his own soul. Don't believe what you hear on discovery or Nat Geo. Ask God with a sincere heart and find out for yourself.Please give Him a shot, you won't regret it. Like you said in your statment( the good guy fighting the bad guy) so who really is the good guy and who is the bad guy. There is good and evil, light and darkness. CHOOSE WISELY>

How do count the IQ of an atheist. The beginning of wisdom is to fear God and keep His commandments. That sums up the whole matter. First you gotta believe and be born again. Read St. John CH.3 vs 5-7.

One thing to remember , its not what other people are doing or what some churches are doing, The church can't save your soul any more than the KKK, it is your own personal relationship with Jesus Christ that has the power to covert a mans heart to the knowledge of salvation.

Well said Fran, I would say that if an atheist were to get into an accident and saw that they were about to die or in a plane going down I would bet the first words out of their mouths would be , OH GOD HELP ME!

Can't help it, just had to laugh.

Uh, where did I say that I'm an atheist?

You see things your way and I see things my way. Does that mean one is right and the other's wrong? Or are we both right or both wrong?

How can you judge when you're judged by something greater than yourself?

Is a Buddhist judged by Buddha or ....?

Is a Muslim judged by Allah ...? Well, tricky one, this one.

Is a Hindu judged by his/her own Karma or ...?

You know, all I can say is that if you were told the very same by what you're telling me by a Muslim, Hindu, dare I even say by a Mormon, Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc. you'd still be arguing over who's the true believer and which church is the only true one.

Believe in whatever you like but don't deny others their belief or the right NOT to believe. Telling someone that he's doomed for not believing what you believe in is just another form of terrorism. So, before you point your accusing finger at Jihad fighers (I'm sure you do), better point one at yourself as well. Terrorism comes in many disguises.

In a nutshell, I don't care what you believe in and you shouldn't care what I believe in. Before you judge, judge not lest yea be judged....

Remember the Native-American Holocaust.
Remember the Palawa.
Remember the Australian Aborigines.
Remember the Maori.
Remember slavery.
Remember...remember...remember...
Then judge...

If you really want to know if there is a God , why don't you just humble yourself , forget about trying to prove you are right, get on your knees and ask , if you want to know the truth then you must first seek after it, Just say , GOD , I want to know the truth. God will reveal Himself to all who dillegently seek Him.

In all honesty, I don't see anywhere where Chas is trying to prove he's right. On the other hand, I can't say the same about yourself.

So why can't Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, etc. claim the very same what you're claiming? What would make you think that what they experience is fake? If you have all the answers, doesn't that make you God?

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-10-2010).]

The Bible says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter into Heaven. I would say that if a Christian were to win a vast amount of money that he or she would still serve God, But a non Christian? Probably not unless their health began to fail and they realised that money cant save them, or restore their life.

You're such a hypocrite!

Here you are telling us what to believe in and all while you're full with hatred and look down on all those that don't believe in your faith. You seem to know nothing about other beliefs as well.

Uh, what do you say (yell) when you whack yourself on your thumb with a hammer? Somehow I doubt it'd be "Satan" or "Atheist".

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

How would it make you feel that after this life you found your self at the judgement seat of a God that you stubornly rejected all your life and hear Him say depart from me you worker of iniquity,( I don't know you)and you have been the cause of your wife and children following you right into a devils hell. If your nane is not written in the Lambs book of life then that is your destiny. Many of you talk about different religions , Buddhism,Islamb, Catholics, etc. Ask yourself this , What is God , What is Jesus, they are not Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran or any other man made or man named Religion or Church.Its about what God says. If you go into the millitary you do what they say, if you don't there is a price to pay. On your job you do it the way the boss says and that is the way it is. God also has the the same athority and way much more. So if He says this is how it is to be , then that is the way it is . You have a choice to comply or there is a price to pay, but thank God for His mercy toward us for it is new every morning. I can only say that the reason I try to convince people that God is true is because I also was deep in sin and allmost got to the point of no return but I began to pray and seek after God and one night I fell to my knees and cried out to God to forgive me of all the sin and wrong that I had done. I meant it with all my heart and God Knows when we really want to change from a life of sin and surrender to His plan for our lives. I found that God has a place for us all in Heaven and myself and all other Born again believers just can't stand the thought of our friends and family missing out on eternal life.Millions will miss heaven because they let the devil tell them lie after lie and blame God for the problems we face. God never said it would be easy , He said we will face many trials and tribulations along the way but He is always with us. So don't say that there is no God until you at least ask Him into your heart JUST BELIEVE! and He will prove Himself to you.

I have in no way showed any hatred toward anyone I'm just telling of my own experiences that have given me a real change in my life. Its when I begin to read all of the negetive comments about God and how he is a God of desease, war etc. It sounds like people who are haters of God when God Himself has nothing to do with it. I believe He is a good God of Love and Mercy. I made no hypocritical statements to you or anyone else. However I do apologise if I insinuated you were atheist I did misread your Quote at the beginning and for that I am sorry. God is God to all no matter who you are. My statements all are simply to seek God in truth and I don't see any hypocricy in that.

But didn't God warn the people what He was going to do unless thay repented of the sin that had taken hold on the city. And they would not repent.

Buddhist, Hindus ,and Muslims do claim they are right. I'm saying from my own experinces with God. I don't have hardly any answers, I just believe the bible and how it changed my life from one way of life to another and I am not trying to push my faith on anyone, just quoting what the bible says, but if people don't believe the Bible then it is of none effect.

"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and Demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long; Its purpose is in the service of your people.

"People fear what they don't know."

Chief Dan George

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Bo pen nyang.

NO Buddhist ever made that claim. It really shows that you don't know what you're talking about.

Buddhists don't care what anyone's belief is. Buddhism is the only religion that didn't cause war(s).

Practice whatever faith you want but give others the privilege of theirs.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

Proably more like Oh Sh-t, I seemed to have offended you when it was never my intentions. I think the only ones who know all about the bible and God are guys half drunk about ready to fall off their barstool, I know , I was there once many years ago. I gave my heart to the Lord 34 years ago and I still have that same Joy today as then, I guess when something lasts that long it must be real with staying power. I say with meekness that I truly did not mean any offence to you or anyone else. I know I got you all fired up but I did click on the wrong quote about being atheist. These kind of debates about different religions and faith can get the ol hair to stand up so I guess more care in our selections of wording must be taken , I know I will be more careful as to not to offend, if at all possible.

You said: "I would say that if a Christian were to win a vast amount of money that he or she would still serve God, But a non Christian? Probably not unless their health began to fail and they realised that money cant save them, or restore their life."

That sounds like hatred or at least a genuine dislike towards non-Christians to me. And based on what facts?

Your experience is YOURS and you can't expect everyone else to feel the same way even if the experience is similar to yours.

Calling me an atheist means nothing to me. LOL You can call me a Muslim, Hindu, etc. for all I care. I would take it as a compliment.

No one ever said that your God is a god of disease, war, etc. All we did was aks WHY. Read my first post of this thread and you'll see what I mean.

When ONE preaches and does otherwise, he's a hypocrite. If I tell people to love each other but then look down or disrespect someone else's belief, than I'm a hypocrite. I don't care what one is, be it Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist. We're all human beings, have the same dreams, same pains, same gains, same losses, we all cry, laugh, love, ... Why can't certain people just not accept this.

Imagine...

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

If they didn,t think they were right then they would not be buddhist , If muslims didn,t think that they were right then they too would not be muslims and the same holds true to all religious kinds of faith. I'm not knocking yours or anybodys religion and I can't understand why you say that I am. I have told of my experence and how real it is to me. If you are Buddist and it satisfys your spiritual needs then so be it. If it did not then you might would look for something that would, most people would. So if you are a Buddhist and it satisfys your needs you would not change to something else because you feel you're right. Just as we all do. So if buddist didn't claim to be right about their faith then would that mean that they claim to be wrong? of coarse not, so they too claim to be right just as all do.

It's alright, don't worry.

Like I mentioned before, the same experience can have different effects on people. You say that you were saved by God from alcoholism. Now don't you believe that the same has happened to those that are non-Christian? It really doesn't matter what you believe or not believe in. We all draw strength from something. But it would be wrong to deny others for having drawn that strength just because their faith is different than yours.

God is great, Allah is great, Buddha is great, nothing is great...it all comes down to the same. We're all individuals no matter how many groups or cliques we belong to. We can do good and bad in a thousand different ways, sometimes visible, sometimes not. But don't you think that we already know how our actions will be judged? Lest we forget, it's not our words but our actions that cause the scale to go either up or down. So it really doesn't matter what one believes or doesn't. We can't judge someone on what he believes only. That'd be absurd. It would mean that we would disregard anything that person has done, whether good or bad. Doesn't make sense, does it?

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-10-2010).]

I think I told you that I did not intend to call you anatheist, it was a quote from another a couple post down and I clicked the wrong one. If you got alot of money would it change your religion, probably not, so if being a non believer would it cause you to turn to God , Probably not ,I have no hatred for no one, especially non believers, the point is , is that when I was a non believer is when I was drinking and didn't care about religion and became a christian. your quote In your first post.
Gods will: cancer, sickness , desease war and if you don't remember the rest go back and take a look, Lets just let it go.

Once again, Buddhism isn't about claiming that theirs is the true faith. Why don't you do some research and you'll see. It's no use for me trying to convince you. Buddhism is a religion and it's not a religion, it's a philosophy and it isn't a philosohy. Just take my word for it that no Buddhist would ever make such claim.

What my belief is doesn't matter. False claims would still be made.

To me, this is what Buddhism is all about on a daily basis and it's what makes me feel good:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyLazm3fOrE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbo1kvqAc4

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

God's will: cancer, sickness, disease, war, natural disasters,...
The Devil's Work: drugs, crime, sex, gambling, not being a believer, etc... Unless you're the victim... then it's God's Will.

It's God's Will: One of the most insulting and uncaring words ever. Unless you're looking forward to catching AIDS or get swept into sea by a tsunami.

I was referring to what people say. Just wondering why they say this. Bill and Chas understood for which I'm thankful.

Taike

Thanks for clearing that up. I don't know why such bad things happen to so many children and good people any more than anyone else but I'm sure God didn't intend it being this way. Whatever form of faith we have we all have the same goal, to make it to what most call Heaven, It is best to just let this topic fade away, and being unable to talk face to face it is almost impossible to express what you are really trying to say to one another because words can get twisted up so easily.

No, let's not...

Mr. G, you said early in your comments that you found Christ a long time ago and that the joy in your heart hasn't diminished. That is good for you. I can't find a single fault with anyone who has found joy, peace and comfort in their faith.

What I ask you to consider is this...

I would like to have the faith in my heart that you have. However, the battle in my brain prevents me from obtaining such a thing.

When I was in my late teens, I attended a large Christian based retreat for kids my age. We sang songs, played games, did Bible study, etc. A really fun few days. The last evening we were all together, the people running the event asked all the kids in the audience who had been "saved" to please rise. You'll have to trust me when I say I wanted to stand up in the worst way, but I couldn't. I wondered privately what had all these other kids experienced that I hadn't?

To this day, I'm still waiting for an answer.

As I've gotten older, there's a plurality to my faith. Organizationally, I've grown less and less interested in participating in an established church. Some aspects are appealing, but in my mind, the wrong ones. Personally, I feel closer to God than I ever have. He knows my thoughts, fears, hopes, etc. Its between him and me.

While I'll grant you I've forgone the "ritual" of worshiping en masse, the few times over the last few years I have attended a Sunday morning service, I didn't enjoy it. 60 minutes of threats, empty promises, etc. didn't make me want to return.

I meant what I said about being glad you found peace.

What's ironic to me is that in a way, while I've spent a lot of time looking for Christ in my heart, I've also had this almost "heavenly" impulse to seek him out in my mind as well.

The product of that battle equals a very human dose of doubt.

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 08-11-2010).]

Glad to have you back, Bill.

To me, religion is a matter of conscience. I alone must decide for myself and you for yourself, what we choose.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

Hi bill in Dayton, I understand what you are saying because I felt the same way you did for a long time and at times still do. When all the kids stood to profess that they had been saved many of them may have felt just as you did , but by faith they stood. So we are saved by faith believing that when we ask God to forgive us and to make Him Lord of our live's it is not by what we feel but what we believe. I think if you would have stood with the rest and confessed that you too had been fogiven of all your sins you may have expirienced just what you were looking for. I played in night clubs and bars drinking etc. but I new that God was not pleased with me, but I loved that band so much that I didn't want to let go but in order to serve God I knew I had to. Many who read this will say , (there's nothing wrong with playin in the clubs and stuff) but anything we put ahead of what God has called us to do is not right and we all know that deep inside what should and should not be. But just as you I broke my pride and went to church and when the alter call was give I got to my feet and went. So I began to tell God that if He would forgive all my sins and save me that I would quit playing in the Bars and serve Him , nothing happened , I still felt the same ol way as before ,but I began to change my prayer from (If you will then I will) to Lord I quit the bar scene, from this moment on no more boozin, no more rock bands and I will use the talent you gave me to lift you up so the ones searching for a life that only you can give can find. So when I said I am forgiven, I am saved , I then felt the weight of sin lift from me and proclaimed to all that ( I AM SAVED )So if I had not responded to the alter call and professed that I am saved I don't know where I would be today. from that day until now I play contemporary Christian Music in Church, Coffee Houses Parks and other places, and I would say the Music out there is so incredible. Go on u-tube Contemporary Christian Music, Check out Micheal W. Smith , Steven Curtis Chapman , Chris Tomlin and so many more , I think you will like most of what you hear. So we walk by faith proclaiming Him , the Bible says , we are saved by faith. It is so easy that it's hard to believe sometimes that a simple prayer of asking total forgiveness and believing and thanking Him for it. We can't think about what others do or believe, we have to seek out our own salvation. I pray that this is a help to you and others as well, I have a doctors app. so I must go for now but I know we will chat again soon. One more thing , the night I got saved and told God that I was done with the old life , (THE BAR SCENE etc.) He knew that I meant it and was sincere to my confession to Him , that is what really made a difference , He knew my heart and that I truely wanted to serve Him insted of myself and the ol enemy. God Bless
Gordon

I agree , People do fear what they don't know , thats why we all fear death. It's unknown. But I do think we can have more peace at that time if we have lived a life ( in my case and faith a Christian )as close to Gods will and purpose as we can , and the same go's for any of our faiths.So if we believe in the God that Peter and Paul preached , or the God of another faith I believe there is a peace we all can find , we just have to find it for our selfs

I'm pretty sure that if I'd stood up with those other kids I would've done so purely out of a sense of peer pressure.

I grew up in a Church (Methodist) where ultimatums had no place in the sermons. I remember being taught a lot about virtues and how God wanted us to handle various issues in our lives. I never heard the phrase "born again" until I was almost in college.

Further, I never heard threats in a church until I moved to SW Ohio about 18 years ago. It was like they really thought they could frighten someone into being a better Christian.


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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 08-11-2010).]

Bill, ever seen the movie "Jesus Camp"? Pretty scare stuff.

You can watch the entire movie on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOqGhcwwE1s&feature=PlayList&p=698E232E6C96531 B&index=0&playnext=1

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-11-2010).]

I did praise and worship at a Methodist church here in Monroe Mi. some years back, never heard much fire and brimstone preaching, but that seemed to be the norm years ago and I'm glad you don't hear it much anymore. I think if you just preach the word of God , let the Spirit of God do the work and man get out of the way, then I believe a hole lot more people could come to a better relationship with the Lord. I also used to set up the sound systen for my church teen camp close to Kings Island, that may be somewhat close to where you are . A town called Hillsboro, Ohio off the cincinatti bypass, we had a great time, so we have actually done many of the same type of things. Seems like the whole world is comming against Christianity but Jesus said they hated me without cause and they will hate you also. I know there are a few bad apples out there preaching for monetary gain and could care less about Gods people, I tell you that they shall receive their reward, and that is a real shame. I must continue on anyway. The enemy, rather it be an army of war or the devil (ALL OUR ENEMY) always goes after the ones who has the power to hurt them most. Is that why the real Christian Church is so under attack by so many, something to think about. The term born again is simply (Changed ,Forgiven, a new Person in Christ, St John Chapter Three verses 5-8 )I gave an alter call at that Methodist church one morning and about 10 or 12 people came , That has been about 16 years ago and how many that really gave themselves to the Lord that day I don't know , but about 5 or 6 years ago a man came up to me and said , do you remember me? and I said no , he said I was one of those who came to the alter and gave my heart to the Lord the morning you ask us if we knew for sure that if we died today would we go to heaven and I was one who didn't know if I would or not. I know now he said , cause I am still serving God to this day because of that alter call. We can have a very positive impact on so many people in so many ways. So for me I just tell my testimony and what God has done for me. . BE BLESSED

What do you guys think of this?
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100728/fla-church-plans-burn-a-quran-day-on-9-11/index.html

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Bill in Dayton

I read or heard about this a while ago. Once again, there's the misconception that Islam is not a religion of "peace". One only has to go back in history to see which religions have caused the most havoc. If you watch "Jesus Camp" you'll see how lunatics cast a bad light on what's supposed to be about inner peace. I say "inner" peace because isn't that what we strive for? It's the lunatics, the fundamentalists, that suck out that inner peace through lies, threats and deceit and turn it into rage and hatred. And I'll say it once again, you won't find any of this in Buddhism. That's rather unique, don't you think?

Mr. Jones will feel even more threatened by this:
http://www.christianchronicle.org/article2158711~Is_Christianity_In_America_losing _ground%3F

Mr. Dove may think of himself as a religious and righteous person but he perfectly examplifies the opposite.

Burning the Qu'ran is akin to burning parts of the Old Testament.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.


[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-12-2010).]

Some excellent points made in this debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=309MCU8TonE&feature=related

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 08-12-2010).]

Another charlatan that uses religion to fill his own pockets while teaching hatred:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgL8FDUtkWQ&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_goSKPCaM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59NCduEhkBM&feature=channel


So how does he explain earthquakes in Taiwan, China, Vanuatu, USA,...?

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

But Remember , It's just a movie. Did you see the new Rambo movie? Pretty scary stuff.
How about 2012, even more scary. Anybody with a video camera can make any kind of movie they want. Just Movies by people with a heck of an imagination.

This will be my last reply on these matters. I think anyone who reads these comments can easily see who has the hatred. If God himself would come down and look you right in the eye you would still not believe and would try to convince Him that you were right. So the one with the most hate in their heart is very odvious. Have a nice life!

Oh, get real, please! It's a DOCUMENTARY!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp

It's child abuse, brainwashing, heck...it's pure horror. That such events even can take place is beyond me.

You don't see me telling YOU what to believe, do you? So far you have been doing nothing but.

If you were born in Saudi-Arabia, born to Saudi-Arabian parents, do you really believe that you'd still believe what you're believing now? It's all too easy to answer "Yes" while the reality is most likely a resounding "No". This is something you really don't seem to grasp. I've asked the very same question to others just like you and they all answered "Yes" without even giving it a thought that it wouldn't. How can one even answer such question? If you were born an Arabian you'd most likely not even had alcohol in the first place.

If a Muslim tries to convert you, you'll get upset. Yet you think nothing of it to confront others by telling them that they have to face your god or else be doomed.

The fact is that you didn't upset me at all as you stated in a previous post. It's rather that I have upset you.

You also showed me that you have no clue about Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. I am happy that you've overcome your bout with alcoholism but you really shouldn't make it sound like only Born Again Christians can have the same experience as yours. There are literally thousands of non-Christians that have overcome alcoholism or drug addictions, either with finding solace in a belief or through their own willpower. And I am adamant that one's personal willpower is the main reason that anyone can overcome such addictions. To belief in a greater power than ourselves only makes it easier for some.

An atheist can be as good or even better than someone who shares your faith or any faith. To demonize an atheist is to grant oneself with power that shouldn't be his in the first place. You are in no place to judge anyone on their belief or non-belief. We all share the same planet and we all share its resources.

I watched the 9/11 event on TV. It was just a movie made by people with lots of imagination.

I watched the havoc caused by Hurricane Katrina on TV. It was just a movie made by people with lots of imagination.

Or not?

You want me to go on and on? Now if I am wrong, how can you be right? We both saw it on TV. We both weren't personal witnesses to these events. All what we saw were images made by someone's camera.

I never saw you fall off a barstool so how do I know it's true? But, unlike you, I take your word for it. If it had happened to me and I found Allah, you'd be telling me quite the opposite of what you felt.

You can talk about your belief until you're blue in the face (and I have poured cement into my ears), but FORCING one's belief onto someone else is an invasion of that person's liberty. YOU will face YOUR God and I will face MINE. How about that?

Please listen to what this man has to say, especially the part about prayer. Then sit down and think, think, think deeply about what he said. Maybe then you will understand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3VOZ4n4aM

It's time that you get rid of this self-righteousness and stop loathing someone else's belief. Is no one bothering you to convert to theirs so why are you?

And now I'm going to bed.

Taike



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Bo pen nyang.

What if Allah looked you in the eye? Or Lord Shiva?

If a righteous person, someone who's never harmed anyone in his life, has done nothing but good deeds, but doesn't believe in your god, has to answer to your god or else be doomed, well, then all mankind is doomed. To heck with all laws for nothing makes sense then. Such a god would have failed his own teachings.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.