God's will: cancer, sickness, disease, war, natural disasters,...

The Devil's Work: drugs, crime, sex, gambling, not being a believer, etc... Unless you're the victim... then it's God's Will.

It's God's Will: One of the most insulting and uncaring words ever. Unless you're looking forward to catching AIDS or get swept into sea by a tsunami.

I've never really got the "Its God's will" myself.

As a young pup I was taught in Sunday school that God gave everyone free will. We are free to make good or bad decisions and will bear the consequences of each.

But at various times in my life I've heard people remark, "Oh, it was God's Will."

Is it that everything that happens is because of something that's happened before OR is God pulling the strings on everything and we're basically puppets?

Or, perhaps a blend?

No disrespect meant towards any one or their beliefs, but Taike puts an interesting thing out there for us to chew on...

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Bill in Dayton

Again, a potentially volatile but worthwhile post from the "intellect" in my adopted family.

Good observation, Bill!

R.

Taike, I hope Chas and others will respond and indicate an appreciation of the thought and depth of this one.

R.

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 05-19-2010).]

Maybe it's God's will that the devil be permitted to do his work? One of those things that can probably never be fully understood on this level. There may be a difference between what God wills and what God allows.

I'll have to give this some more thought before I come up with anything that makes sense, even to me . Being an Atheist, I'm not sure that I even have the right to comment. I've been watching this Stephen Hawking's Universe thingy on the Discovery channel (or maybe Nat. Geographic, can't remember) and when he starts to describe the vastness of the universe and the billions of galaxys that it contains, and the possibility that there could actually be multiverses, well, it begins to stretch the imagination a little to think that one single entity controls all that. But if, for instance, he doesn't, then how much of it does he control? What is the extent of his reach? Who rules the rest of it? If God doesn't like the Devil, why doesn't he just zap him? Is it like a big game and God needs an opponent? How many other things do you believe that are completely unsubstantiated by even a whiff of proof? Why do people want to kill other people because they refuse to 'see the light'. Of course, I guess something had to set off the 'big bang'. BTW, in 'Creationism', what exactly was created? How much 'detail' does God pay attention to (if I cheated on my wife, would he know it, would he even care? - remember the vastness of the multiverse with it's billions of universes with it's billions of galaxys)? Wow, I have sooooo many questions? I need answers. I know! I'll go read the Bible. Nah, guess I'll just stay ignorant.

chas

Well, since we all know that we can't control every individual's actions and thoughts, the Church had to "invent" something that would put them in a good light. It's easier to put the blame on someone or something then on oneself. This way you're always the good guy fighting the bad guy. And what perfect excuse to get rid of the unbelievers, the heathens, to colonize, commit genocide, rape and plunder.

Free agency? See above...

And lastly...no church should earn money! Yet, the fastest way to become rich is to start a religion. At least the Native-Americans had(have) it right: a belief is free so how can you charge for it? Why pray in a manmade structure about God's creation when his creation is being systematically destroyed? And my favorite... the white man prays to God, we talk to him.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 05-19-2010).]

Interesting observations...

I draw a line between Religion and Spirituality. I think Religion is Man's attempt to apply Spirituality in a systemic way across a Culture.

In my life, when I have tried to be strong in my Religion, or the practice of it, I usually feel as if I'm coming up short. Churches seem different to more than they were when I was younger. As a youth in Pittsburgh, I remember friendly, warm and thought-provoking sermons and messages. Living in Ohio for the last 20+ years, I've seen a big change. Its more gloom and doom, more you must do this or you're going to hell. That threatening tone doesn't resonate with me.

I also attended meetings with a youth group called "Young Life" when I was in High School. Maybe I was there for the music and the girls, but I usually felt comfortable there. It all changed for me when our local group attended a retreat and at one point 500+ teens were told "If you've accepted JC as your lord and savior, blah, blah, blah - stand up!" Most everybody jumped up, but a few of us didn't for various reasons. I'd personally never experienced an epiphany or anything so I thought it dis honest of me to just conform and stand. YL was never the same for me after that. I wanted to be "religious" I really did, but it just didn't pan out. I didn't seem to feel what the other kids did.

On the other hand, when it comes to Spirituality, its a whole different ballgame. A quiet, direct sense of communicating with what I perceive as God has worked much better for me. Is this approach a cop out? Maybe. Am I less of a good person because I don't profess my beliefs in a large room a few times a week with hundreds of other people? I don't think so.

Perhaps I'm what's called an "Ala Carte" Christian. I like this, this and that, but NOT that, that or this.

Faith is a helluva thing, lol...

I think I have it, but I admit that I also have doubts.

Is my struggle "God's Will" or "The Devil's Work?" Depends on who I talk to, I guess...

Chas-Some Atheists are among the most Spiritual souls I've ever met.

I try daily to live as virtuous a life as possible. I don't go out the door every day hoping to be the best Christian I can be, I go out and try to be the best Father, Husband and person I can be. If the sermons I heard as a young person were true, then it'll all work out for me in the end. If the messages of the last decade or so proclaiming I MUST do this and I MUST do that, then I'm probably screwed.

Again, no offense towards anyone or any beliefs.

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Bill in Dayton

Agree. Smart too. I've yet to meet a low IQ Atheist, but I've met a helluva lot of dumb devoutly religious types (just go to any Palin rally ).

I think Spiritualism (like religion) is a way of making peace with the things we don't understand (and are unlikely to ever find out in our lifetime). A way to explain or express why we'd rather do 'good' than 'bad', why we have a 'conscience', why we feel good when we do something that we perceive as 'good', when we help someone for no reason at all, when we marvel at the beauty of a sunny day or the vastness of a clear, starry night. We feel spiritual when, while walking alone through the woods, we spot a solitary Ladyslipper, happily blooming away and not caring whether anyone is there to watch it. We feel spiritual when we observe the 'miracle of life' as expressed by the birth of our own children (or the death of our parents or loved ones.

Who hasn't wondered if that's all there is (death), and if we can't accept that, then we need to believe in an afterlife in order to cope. Else, why be 'good'. What is the 'reward' for being 'good' just for the sake of being 'good'. What are the (afterlife) consequences of being 'bad'?

Many of the lessons that organized religion teaches us are not only valuable, but practical, as well. But I believe that they are the crystalization of centuries of human experience. Accomodation, 'live and let live', mutual protection, teritorial defense, the need to reproduce (species survival), etc., etc., are all either instinctive or learned, and refined over time to produce the best chance for survival.

Bill, there is a reason you have questions or doubt. It's what keeps you from being a 'sheep'. Except for the fact that we don't proselytize, I'd say that you'd be a good fit in a Unitarian/Universalist 'church'. There is an easy way to pick out your average Unitarian; If you see a group of people walking along a road, and they come to a fork in the road and one sign says 'Heaven', and the other sign says 'Discussion about Heaven', well.......... (you get the idea ). But despite their healthy skepticism about religious matters, you will usually find them at the forefront of the social issues that continue to plague us as a society. Idealogically, they are very similar to the Ethical Society.

Anyhoo, keep doing what you're doing. In the end, you'll be remembered fondly (our version of an afterlife ). If it turns out that there really are Pearly Gates, then you'll get there too, so you can't lose.

chas

I think that this is one of the most unbelievable threads I've ever seen. My friends who participated...A Buddhist (Taike), an Atheist (Chas),and a devout Christian (Rory) come from vastly different orientations, all making their points during one of the most potentially volatile discussions ever, here; all in an intelligent, articulate manner, with no resulting hard feelings or animosity, in spite of some really fundamental differences in basic beliefs.

Then, add the well reasoned, questioning, completely honest and frank responses of Bill, a guy I'm respecting more as time goes on for his thoughtful, rational thinking process.

This has been a delight to observe.

Thanks, GENTLEMEN!

R.