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#88911 - 05/20/10 11:56 AM Re: Good vs. Evil
FAEbGBD Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 847
Loc: Nashvville TN
I do find it interesting that a reasonable person can talk only about the genocide, rape and theft of poor people's money or whatever, and have absolutely no mention or clue about very good and noble things the church has done over the centuries as well. Bitterness has a way of turning things one-sided rather intensely.

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#88912 - 05/20/10 01:19 PM Re: Good vs. Evil
captain Russ Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Rory, I'm not so sure it's bitterness, but the expectation that, because of the stated purpose(s) of organized religion(s), people expect the good (as part of the mission of the organizations)and are disappointed; even demoralized by the well documented but always unexpected bad. History does not lie. From the Crusades through the current child abuse issues, bad stuff like this is never right. Any religious connection makes it worse, in my opinion. In over 40 years of dealing with non-profits, the majority of problems (infighting, theft, non-payment, etc.)I have encountered have been organizations with well defined religious affiliations. This is not an effort to trash or discredit organized religions at all, but rather an indication of disappointment at issues involving religious organizations that are far to common.

Sad, really sad.


Russ

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#88913 - 05/20/10 01:52 PM Re: Good vs. Evil
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by FAEbGBD:
I do find it interesting that a reasonable person can talk only about the genocide, rape and theft of poor people's money or whatever, and have absolutely no mention or clue about very good and noble things the church has done over the centuries as well. Bitterness has a way of turning things one-sided rather intensely.


I, for one, am very quick to acknowledge the good things that the church has done. I don't believe that the civil rights and liberties that I enjoy today (in this country) would be in place now if not for the church's involvement in the Civil Rights movement. I applaud the church for that; it's the 'Voodoo' part that I have a problem with; that, and the very high position in which it has placed itself in controlling our lives. I'm also not willing to turn a blind eye to the church's failings either; the terror tactics of Islamic extremist, the rampant pedophilia in the Catholic church, the hate speak of the Christian far right. They are all examples of a sound ideology being manipulated to excuse doing harm to others. The Klan (KKK) claims to base their ideology on Christian principles, yet I can't seem to find which of those principles condones the murdering of innocent people (while bringing their small children to watch and participate in the spectacle, thus insuring a new generation of haters).

So Rory, like everything else, the church can be both good and bad. I can accept that. What I can't accept is that it be mandatory. Freedom for all, I say, especially freedom of thought.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#88914 - 05/20/10 05:16 PM Re: Good vs. Evil
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
In the end..an atheist may be the dumbest of all...

Also, the odds are no one dies an atheist...there may be a true glimpse of the true at the end..

My thoughts are more like Rory and Bill's view..

And I also believe God has given each of us a free will....and the "bible" should not be taken lightly , while making our decision to apply free will..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#88915 - 05/20/10 07:34 PM Re: Good vs. Evil
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Well I guess it was inevitable. Sooner or later, an intellectual debate has to come to an end.

So you're saying that if someone (me, in this case) doesn't believe what you believe, they're "dumb". So God gave us 'free will' as long as we don't exercise it, is that the gist of it? Hey, nobody called Rory dumb. Nobody called Russ dumb. No one called Taike dumb. In fact, nobody called ANYBODY dumb........until now.

Sorry Russ, you should have saved your congratulations until after the 'smart' people checked in. But thanks, Fran, you really proved my point. Hey listen, feel free to believe whatever you want, concerning the existence of God, just extend the same courtesy to others. Or do you feel as though it's your 'mission' to save me?

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#88916 - 05/20/10 09:01 PM Re: Good vs. Evil
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
YES!!!!...
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#88917 - 05/20/10 09:34 PM Re: Good vs. Evil
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2202
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
To the point that Fran made (albeit a little clumsily.)

Death bed conversions are probably common and I wonder if in that moment, will I all of a sudden have a profound change of heart? Will it be out of fear? Out of enlightenment?

I know people often find comfort in their faith when their lives take a painful turn. After my Mom died a few years ago, my younger sister really became a "strong Christian." Which is fine for her. When others get news of a terminal illness or an accident or some other hardship often they'll turn to "God" for strength.

I'm wanting to see the guy that finds out he's just won 30 million on the Super Lotto and immediately announces that Christ has entered his life.

I'm over exaggerating of course, but why don't more people seem to get close to "God" when they're doing great?

------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 05-20-2010).]
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Bill in Dayton

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#88918 - 05/20/10 10:58 PM Re: Good vs. Evil
Taike Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 2814
Loc: Xingyi, Guizhou (China)
I was brought up in a catholic environment, went to catholic schools, etc. Yet nowhere or not once did I ever witness "free agency". You either were or weren't and fire and brimstone awaited those that weren't.

What I did witness was the hatred between those that praised the same god, read the same "good" book, but were of different denominations; catholic vs. protestant, mormon vs. all the rest, etc. Everyone denouncing everyone else's belief and proclaiming that theirs is the "true" church.

Buddhism doesn't have this. Zen Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, basically every other branch of Buddhism, gets along and respects each other for their principles remain the same. The main differences are certain ceremonies or those that are strictly vegan and those that aren't. Some Buddhists, for instance, are strictly vegan, don't even eat garlic and onions, while in Laos, even monks, eat anything, meat included. They're, however, forbidden from killing animals. But those differences aren't frowned upon as one expects differences due to different cultures.

Fran, since you've joined the conversation and mentioned the bible, how well do you know the scriptures? But more importantly, how closely do you "live" the scriptures?

I've had many conversations with atheists and, believe me, they're far more knowledgable about the scriptures than most believers that barely have an idea what's written in it. So far I've never met a "dumb" atheist.

When I was in high school I questioned a bishop. I asked him why he was telling us to give donations and live frugal lives while he was living in a manson and had a handful of servants at his disposal. And why he had such a high salary. You see, I'd done my homework. All I got from him was a really dirty look and silence before I was literally thrown out of the church by a couple of teachers.

If one can't question, then how can one understand. If one doesn't understand, how can one believe? To answer a question with a quote that can be answered with another quote that tells the opposite and so on and on... still leaves me without a clear answer. Belief is something entirely personal; it can't be taken away unless YOU let it. It can't be influenced unless YOU let it.

No devil ever made me do anything that I wasn't prepared to do. While I may have felt sorry about it later on, the blame was on me. And for every good deed that I've done, it was of my own doing. I guess that's why we have prisons. Or everyone would be saying "the devil made me do it so you have nothing against me".

If all it takes is a deathbed conversion, then why even bother with religion?

Good things... I prefer to believe that individuals do good things but organizations (churches) tend to take full credit. Take Mother Teresa. She did far more on her own then did the entire Vatican.

Civil Rights... it was still individuals who stood up, with or without backing of the church.

A church should be without wealth!

Taike



------------------
Bo pen nyang.
_________________________
最猖獗的人权侵犯 者讨论其他国 家的人权局势而忽略本国严重的人权 问题是何等伪善。

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#88919 - 05/21/10 12:16 AM Re: Good vs. Evil
FAEbGBD Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 847
Loc: Nashvville TN
"With or without the backing of the church?" What is that supposed to mean? The church is made up of individuals. A group of individuals. It's not an object, it's people. A group can accomplish more than an individual. Something to be said for having the backup of your friends of common belief, accountability, support. Maybe like playing an arranger; you can do it as an individual and accomplish quite a bit, but an arranger big band style isn't like a 17 piece orchestra. The concept of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts comes to mind.

Yes, Mother teresa was an individual, but she herself wouldn't say she did what she accomplished under her own power. She wouldn't have done what she did if she didn't think that it was for a greater good and a higher calling, rather than herself just feeling good about doing something nice for somebody.

Nope, the devil can't make you do something, but he might have a lot of influence on a compromised mind. God chooses not to make people do anything either, but many teachings of many faiths are pretty clear that there are rewards, both now and after, for those who try to live righteously. Whatever people do in the name of religion isn't really god's fault. God is God regardless what we do. Some people invoke God's name or concept to very ill ends, but that's their problem they'll have to reckon with. Some non believers are much better people than some who profess faith, no question.

And, who exactly DOES have the right to be wealthy? Not church, not oil barons, not investment bankers, not lawyers, not insurance companies, not drug companies, not right wing talk radio guys. Nobody, apparently.

Ironically, there is only one level of separation between and Atheist and a believer. Atheists can't quite understand where everything came from. I mean, it takes a lot of faith to believe in a big random bang that made all of this happen. Whereas believers have found that answer, God made it. But, that begs the question, what made God. Hmmm. Every religion is a very long way off from a full understanding of what God is. And any real scientist knows they are a hell of a long way from a full understanding of what the universe is and how it works too. Yet there are those in both camps who very confidently say they pretty much have it figured out. Al Gore knows everything there is to know about how our planet's climate works, and my dad is pretty sure he has a better understanding of God than most anybody. I think they're both due for a big surprise.


[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 05-21-2010).]

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#88920 - 05/21/10 05:37 AM Re: Good vs. Evil
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Well, looks like we're finally back on track. The last three posts were all great, and I think it's because all had an element of open-mindedness. Each was able to get away from the 'true believer' mantra and either stated or implied that perhaps they didn't have all the answers. That's a great start for a civil discussion on ANY subject, but especially any discussion involving religion. But the second someone comes in and starts making 'absolute' pronouncements, that's when it all goes south and the civility ends.

Rory's last post was honest, thought-provoking, and really made me sorry that I didn't get a chance to meet him in person at Summer Namm. I tend to migrate towards people who are bright enough to know a lot but are still quick to acknowledge that they don't know everything, and that there ARE no 'absolute truths'.

I am not anti-religious, but I'm also not pro-religious. I believe that for some people, it serves as a guide to how they should live their lives. I think others are able to figure it out for themselves. I guess what I have a problem with is the concept of worship. Even if there were some higher life-form, why should I bow down and worship it? I can see trying to reach the same intellectual level as this more advanced super-being. But I can't see any motive for worshiping it other than fear of what it might do to us.....and in fact, isn't that precisely what most Judea-Christian religions tries to instill in us at a very early age?

The church needs believers and it needs to convert non-believers. It could not exist without them. If one looked objectively at the Catholic Church, you would have to conclude that it was ultimately about power, influence, and wealth. But only for the church's hierarchy. How else can one explain the enormous fortune amassed by the church while millions of it's most devout followers (particularly in South American countries) languish in abject poverty.

I guess, like Bill, that there probably is a 'spiritual' element to our psyche, I'm just not sure about it's origin.

As to Fran's 'no Atheist in a foxhole' theory, all I can say is that if it takes a life-threatening situation to suddenly make you a true believer, then God may question your sincerity. But hey, what've you got to lose........except your character.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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