A few weeks ago I asked, on the forum, if the KN7000 supported long file names. I got an unequivocal answer that it certainly did and that 16 characters could be used. There were no caveats or exceptions noted by a source that I highly respect. That made a lot of sense in today’s technology and from that, I assumed that you could load files with long file names directly into the KN7000. This is what I have found.

If you are loading from or saving to a floppy you are limited to the antique 6 character name that we all have had to live with for so many years. Nothing has changed in that regard.

If you drag and drop files from a computer to the keyboard with the Song Manager you are also limited to the old 6 character limit for file names.

If you are saving a custom style to the SD card you are limited to 8 characters. I forgot to check this with a floppy but think it is the same.

If you are working with files that are already in the KN7000 SD card, you can rename them with names up to 16 characters. Backup and restore files include support for the 16 character names. I couldn’t find a way to load a new file into the SD card with more than 6 characters with the software provided by Technics for this purpose.

There are ways to get around some of these limitations as Alec has mentioned with an editor, but that process should only be tried by people with technical skills not normally found in most of the forum members.

I felt that these things should be on the forum because some of you may have been inadequately informed, as was I.

Keeping in mind that my mind doesn't work nearly as well as it did back when I was in my 60's and that I have only had the KN7000 for a few days, I hope that Alec or someone with appropriate knowledge will let forum members know if any of the above items are incorrect.

The 7000 supports long file names, for technics, midi and digital audio. Full customs support long file names, individual customs have always been a different menu system which you would have been familiar with if you had owned a 6X00. I don't recall ever reading anywhere that floppy disks or song manager support long file names, so your assumptions in those areas were plainly wrong, Bob.

However I do recall many posts on transferring your existing or backup files to SD which mentioned many of the renaming points. The main problem is having to rename all the files on the 7000. That is no different to the problem you had loading up the hard drives in the past, since you had to do it from floppy. This was solved by spending money on the techmanager program or using the ttx program before transferring. Hopefully a similar renaming system should be perfectly possible on the 7000 because it would help those people with lots of backups.

Thank you Alec,

I think what you said was that the limitations that I expressed in my post above were correct with the exception of full customs.

you're very welcome, Bob, but you also implied you had been misled.

If you ask a question, does the 7000 support long file names the answer is yes, since it does. The 7000 handles long file names to and from SD and SD backup and restore, no different to the way the hard disks operated. If you then make your own assumptions beyond the terms of the original question then those are your assumptions, not mentioned in the original question, for which you are responsible. If you ask whether floppies or the existing software handle long file names then you would receive the appropriate answers.

I think it unfair to try and imply that you were misled because you read more into an answer than what is stated on the page.

An illustration of being misled would be your own quote in the thread below "I am quite certain that the Song Manager cannot be used to drag and drop a KN5000 file from the computer to the KN7000". Since this is in fact perfectly possible, this is a statement that can unequivocally be termed as misleading since at variance with the facts.

When someone tells me that a product supports long file names without also telling me of any limitations, I should assume that the product fully supports long file names. Not just some minimal support in limited areas.

I can't help but remembering someone saying "It depends on what your definition of is is."

The KN7000 is a fantastic keyboard. It does not need to be defended in any way. Information needs to be both factual and complete.

Enough said. The forum members now know the limitations.

nobody is defending the 7000, my suggestions for improvements were in before anyone elses.
We are discussing your feeling of being misled through citing a list of things most of which had nothing to do with your original question.

If asked the question does the 7000 handle long file names you could write another list which actually answers the question.

the 7000 handles:

current panel
panel memory
sequencer
composer
sound memory
performance pads
effect memory
user midi banks
favourites
home page
all custom styles
individual effect memories
individual sound memories
individual songs
composer banks
individual composer memories
pad banks
individual pads
panel memory banks
individual panel memories
folders or directories
files or songs
midi files
midi playlists
midi song medley folder
midi song medly user list
audio files
audio playlists
favourite songs

all with long file names. err... quote "just some minimal support in limited areas".

You did not ask how long file names are created or what happens to them on floppy. If you had actually asked these different questions no doubt you would have recieved an accurate answer.
Enough said.

I am surprised that you are continuing to try to confuse the readers of this forum, Alec. There is no need for it. You are too knowledgeable about computer terminology to say these things. You and I both know that when you talk about long file name support you are saying that the product can internally work with long file names and that files with long file names can be loaded into and saved from that product in the normal expected fashion (which includes storage media such as floppies and hard drives). These are the three key elements of the terminology. Although the architecture is obviously in the KN7000 to do these things, the software available for the keyboard does not presently permit it.

I have seen these type discussions on the forum before, and I am certain you will respond with more defensive verbiage. I do not intend to respond to whatever follows. Enough has been said and the objective of properly informing forum members has been met.

no Bob, I deal in facts, you're dealing in sweeping assumptions.
The main storage media of a 7000 is SD card. This works with long file names as "loaded into and saved from that product in the normal expected fashion". Nothing you have said disproves this, you just jumped to a lot of other conclusions. Your "defensive verbiage" is based on assumptions you made, not on any factual answers given to specific questions.

have been following this thread closely & find it very interesting, so much so I wondered where this subject had arisen before because I had a feeling it had so I did a search on 'long file names' and could not find the question, only this one http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum25/HTML/000882.html where it was not answered.
Is there anybody else that has come across the subject.

hmmm. never thought of that.

In the thread referred to above, Bob asked
"I may have missed it, but does the KN7000 support long file names in the PC to SD memory copy function?"

If you look further down the thread, I replied "Bob, The SD card filing system has 99 Folders, each folder holding 20 files. Both Folder and File names can be up to 16 Characters long." Which probably did not totally answer his question, but it was 'Early days' at that time.

------------------
Willum

Well, I thought this subject had been put to bed and didn't intend to say more. I finally had time to look at the actual files and found that everyone is sorta' right. The KN7000 supports only 8 characters for the actual file names. The file name for each file on the SD card uses a numbering system that represents the location of the file on the card. Within that file there is a 16 character string variable that we are allowed to fill that contains the name that we want to be displayed. The software selects out that string and displays it instead of the file name. That explains why you can't load or save a long file name to or from the SD Card to an external device. The KN7000 can only "see" the 8 digit number name in the load or save process. Yes you can backup and restore the "long" file name but it is saved at the backup location with the 8 digit name. That also explains why the floppy system still uses the old 6 character name with the two characters used for the numbers 01 thru 20.

Oh Fudge!

Who cares how windy the name is? Let me just play it and see if I can count only 16 mistakes and try to get it down to only six slopies on a floppy.

Grandpa Doug

I agree Doug. Let's play.

I'll go along with that except in my case sorta' right means factual and accurate. Peace and good wishes, folks!

perhaps Bob would care to read http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum25/HTML/001073.html and try out this free program and then update us on how easy it is to transfer his hd hard drive backups to SD card

(obviously your 26 must get cut down to 16 but all the directory names are fine)

p.s. is there virtue in patience?

I gave that some thought but I doubt that it would work because I have almost a gig of stuff on my hard drive backup and I only have a 128 meg SD card. If the files were changed to KN7000 format as a part of the restore, much space would be saved because of the file compression. But I doubt that that is the case so I don't think I'll try because I have almost finished the transfer doing it manually. And you only have to do it once.

What I would really like to see is some of the utilities that were included with the Tech Manager added to the Song Manager. Since the KN7000 does not support long file names it is not possible to see the string name that the user has entered unless the file is being viewed at the KN7000 SD display (or with an editor that most users wouldn't use). The Tech Manager provided for a computer print out of the hard disk content that showed the string name associated with each file. That cross reference was invaluable to me in the process of weeding out and moving the KN5000 files to the SD card. The file management system for the SD card looks almost exactly the same as the system used by Key Soft Service for their hard drives with the exception of the 16 character string as opposed to the 20 character one. So most of the software code could be used for the Song Manager. The Song Manager is very basic to say the least.

this program transfers your long file names, among other things. If you actually used it, you might actually know what you're talking about, Bob

Oh well. . . I tried. I hope you will discuss this subject with someone other than me who has software development knowledge, Alec. Ask them what the difference is, between a file name and a string variable within the file. You certainly won't listen to me. The depth of knowledge of either of us is not important to the forum members anyway.

Hi Bob and all: I've been following this thread closely and sympathize with Bob's file transfer frustrations. I too have about a gigabyte's worth of Tehcnics KN5000 styles backed up from my Keysoft Service brand HD-AE5000 hard drive onto CDs. All my custom files also include long file names.

Until I'm assured that all my Technics files can be easily & quickly transfered to the KN7000, I won't even consider upgrading to the KN7000. Knowing Mr Hendershot personally, I highly respect his technical knowledge & expertise, so I'm sure he has considered just about every conceivable option available. I'm wondering if there something 'unique' that the KeySoftService TechManager software does to a Technics file that prevents it from being transfered to the KN7000 as a long file name?

- Scott

Scott, you may have read the thread, but like Bob, you haven't tried the program. Since you are sure he would have tried every option I fail to see how you can be so sure of this if he hasn't tried the one program that fulfils his main requirement...

Bob applies the common tactic of continually shifting the argument when unable to point to any statement that is not factual. Unfortunately for him, I can point to his statements where he's clearly got it wrong. I don't need to try and boast about my knowledge or experience to further my points.

Who said you just can't talk the talk you must walk the walk or something like that?

Grandpa Doug

Gleaned from the general forum. (Well mostly general anyway)

Scottyee
Member posted 10-10-2002 09:48 PM            
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WONDERFUL NEWS! I just received word from a friend (in France) who who actually already owns a Yamaha Tyros . . . probably one of the first ones released. He tried out the Left Voice 'freeze procedure' which I outlined above, and confirmed that it works on the Tyros the SAME way it works on my PSR2000 and Denny's 9000pro. I'm going to bed tonight with a SMILE on my face. I'm sure you all know what keyboard I'm purchasing now.

The fickle finger of fate! An old saying I have heard used many times and for many reasons. Fickle is a nice word that deserves some time set aside for meditation. The finger is used for a number of things and meanings also, and deserves a little time for musing.

Quote: ‘Until I'm assured, I won't even consider upgrading to the KN7000. If assured you would consider upgrading’???? Fickle, fickle, fickle! If, If, If! If cost of---I would. If vocalizer--- I would. Disappointed in---! And now until I’m assured I wont! The only thing you and me and the rest of us are sure of is, as you state above, you have a smile on your face and your sure we all know what keyboard you are purchasing now. Fickle, fickle! If assured you might? In musing over the word finger maybe that's what we know we are really getting.

Grandpa Doug

Hi Scott,

Alec is right about the transfer program. I had already transferred almost all of my files to the SD card when the program became available and I have since finished that process. The program was just too late for me. That doesn't mean that it doesn't work. It just wasn't right for me. I am sure that I would have tried it if it were available when I needed it. I would want to ask questions about the ability to be selective about what I moved from the hard drive to be sure that I wasn’t trying to move more than the SD card could hold, and that sort of thing.

As for the sales hype, I am still angry at myself for believing some of the stuff I heard. A few choice terms strategically used like "drag and drop", "long file names" "SD cards" and USB lead a person to believe that you could handle KN7000 files like you can other files with the Windows Explorer. You cannot. I made a lot of blunders and wasted a lot of time in the first few days of owning the KN7000 because of these things. I thought my old mind was getting to old to cope with new stuff until the emails started coming in from people wanting help on a keyboard that I had just begun to use. They were also confused. I felt compelled to let others know of the limitations that I had found. This does not mean to imply that the KN7000 is not a great keyboard. It is. It is the right keyboard for me. It may or may not be the right keyboard for you. You will miss the ability to edit your files at your computer keyboard. There are no file load scripts to set up your gigs. You can set up “favorite songs”. You can’t move files at your computer like you could with your Tech Manager program. You can’t print a cross reference of the numeric file names and song setup string names like you could with the Tech Manager so that you could see where song setups were located. All of these things are certainly possible, but they are not available now.

you can backup any files you choose into a backup file on the pc with the program, Bob. That backup can be in arranged in folder or alpha order, keeping the file structure or using all adjacent spaces and set to the size of a specific card. Smaller backups can be effectively merged as I describe in another post.

The features you miss were never provided with a previous keyboard, Bob, they came with an expensive add-on hard disk, and then with further expenditure on a techmanager program which was used by a very small minority of owners. I don't recall any indication anywhere that all of these features would be provided once the product and software had actually been seen. The favorites are now 40 banks of 9 songs each for each SD card, this apes the custom load lists for your gigs. Midis have 99 editable playlists, each with a possible 99 songs from a max of 999 songs. Audio playlists too through the card reader. SD works with long file names that can be loaded, saved, backed up, restored and merged into new backups, and you have alpha sort and load by number already built in. As you have said yourself, once you have your songs on SD the problems are mainly over. The difference is in relative extra expenditure compared to the hard disk/techmanager. We have one free program which helps hx backup people hugely. Let's see if something else turns up...