A good player will get the best out of their instrument no matter what it is; however there is no reason for a keyboard player to emulate the same as a Sax player etc. as its palette is much greater, (Unless all you want to do is recreate a specific instrument) so you can create your own sound and be individual, (Rather than sounding the same as every other Tom, Dick & Harry out there) so make your own sound (That’s what professional keyboard players do) and become unique rather than trying to make your keyboard sound like something it isn’t. (In the old days you could recognise a player by his style (No matter what keyboard he was playing) but these days with arrangers those that know a small amount about arrangers just say oh that’s a Yamaha or that’s a Korg, with the player being an irrelevance)

Bill

Did Chas pour some salt into your tea? Or perhaps the children in your neighborhood were playing cricket on your lawn?

Of course, I’m kidding, and basically agree with you. Read my signature.

I sort of agree but if you can play something pretty or pleasing to your own sensibilities using a simulated acoustic instrument voice, then why not? In the balance between 'pretty' and 'authentic', for me the arc swings towards 'pretty' (IMO). Part of a good performance is choosing the right voice for the situation. In many cases, it determines HOW the piece is played. As much as a bagpipe grates on my nerves, it still seems oddly appropriate for a hero cop's funeral. Again, JMO, to each his own.

chas

I’d like to meet ONE pro that had anything bad to say about arrangers. I’ve never met one. EVER.

Maybe what sucks isn’t the arranger?

I’ve taken arrangers to first call sessions, and played with live bands for 30 years. Never ever had one ‘pro’ put them down. They just say ‘That sounds good. What is it?’, and I say ‘A Roland G70, BK9 (whatever)’ and they go ‘Never heard of it. Sounds cool’ and we get on with business.

You know what I don’t EVER do? I don’t ever play the auto accompaniment to a ‘pro’. A) they can tell how much it sucks (hate to burst anyone’s bubble, but to a pro no auto accompaniment is worth a damn compared to a real band of pros!) and B) I don’t want him to think I’m gunning for his, or anyone else’s job.

THAT’S what pros hate. You, taking their job with an inferior machine.

So, if you want a ‘pro’ to like your arranger, don’t use it as an arranger!

I think there's a time and place for auto-accompaniment in a professional situation. Playing for a discerning audience of music
of music lovers at a venue like Carnegie Hall is different from playing background music at a bar or entertaining the elderly folks at a senior center. All could be paid performances which would make the performer a "professional" but each type of performance has different skill set levels and could require different tools to get the job done.

Ditto!

I’d still like to hear about a ‘pro’ that bothered to come up and give an earful to an arranger player…

Or is this just some apocryphal thing that never really happened but arranger players like to pretend did so they can feel defensive about an instrument that, when used in auto-accompaniment mode is a pale shadow of what real musicians can accomplish?

C’mon, folks. ‘Fess up. Honestly, has ANYONE ever come up to you and criticized your arranger?

I can quite honestly say no-one ever did to me. To be quite honest, no REAL ‘pro’ would bother. If he hated the performance, it would have next to nothing to do with the type of keyboard used, and only a complete douchebag would come up and tell you he hated you (or the keyboard!).

How about we put this urban legend to rest?

Pros don’t hate arrangers.

They don't take them seriously either (those handful that even know what an arranger is).

chas

This pro takes them seriously! 😂

Sure, I doubt I could get away in a studio with one being my ONLY keyboard but if I am having to lay down the entire track mostly, I wouldn’t go in without one.

Define PRO!

Here's what Google produced: When can you call yourself a professional musician?
On a basic level, you're a professional if you get paid. You're a hobbyist if you operate on an amateur level.Oct 1, 2020

A professional musician is one who plays an instrument or several instruments proficiently; performing is their primary source of income.Jun 22, 2017

Gary

My Dad, was a professional piano player. His parents sent him to Italy to learn piano. When he came back to the states he was given a 15-minute spot on radio – that was before TV came into being.

My Dad felt my keyboard was a music toy; he would no touch it. As the years passed, he began spending sometime with it. After a while he used it almost every day.

Many opinions are based on what an arranger keyboard cannot do – instead, WHAT IT CAN DO.

I love my keyboard – and I also love my guitar,
because it is all about me.

Opinion, John C.

I have spent years in bands as well as OMB work, and I have to admit that the end product is more convincing for, especially, dances in a band setting. I look back on all of comradery, as well as the problems associated with band members. However, since I am not a solo piano player and solo organ is not getting it these days, my stable of arranger keyboards has remained my only option.

Thank God I have had this great alternative all these years. I would have been dead in the water otherwise. Viva la arrangers.

Interesting conversation, (And pretty much answers my question) and Diki probably summed it up in that if you play an arranger like most home hobby players (Using the easy play features (sophisticated style etc.) then you will be looked down upon when playing out live, however if you use it just as a keyboard (No accompaniments) it’s as good as any other instrument to them.

Bill

Interesting how the problems with full bands is the OTHER players, never ourselves!

Me, I can put up with a plethora of personal faults if that player can provide some magic onstage, and from time to time, push the music into something new and exciting.

I guess that perhaps the definition of ‘pro’ isn’t in whether you use an arranger or not, but whether you are completely content doing so! Sure, there are considerable financial considerations to using one, but you should never be happy about it! At least not musically…

I feel sorry for anyone that thinks they sound better with an arranger than with any real band they played with (if they ever did). They need to have played with better musicians. Real musicians may have their issues, but good ones will challenge you musically, surprise you, make you work to be better.

Can’t say an arranger has ever done that for me!

When I performed with a full band (5 & 6 piece), I played a 12 string guitar, 6-string electric guitar and a mandolin. We worked one day a week at best, and we were considered pretty damned good by our competition, often outbooking them by a 2 to 1 margin.

When I switched to an arranger keyboard, it didn't take long to be working 7 days a week, sometimes 2 to 3 jobs a day, got paid a Hell of a lot more money than when I had to split everything with 5 other guys, worked shorter hours, mostly during the day, and was in high demand for corporate parties, political fund raisers, weddings (which I turned down - hated them,) and high end restaurant jobs. Yep, I guess I was looked down upon by the "so called" pros out there that were lucky to book one or two days a week. However, I was never on stage to prove anything to a pro musician that may, or may not be in the audience. There were only one group I was there to satisfy - MY AUDIENCES! If I could not satisfy my audiences, I would have quickly been out of a job.

The band members I performed with, one of whom was Peabody trained, all had other sources of income. They needed to make enough money to support their families, pay for a home, afford health and life insurance, and have some sort of retirement plan other than Social Security. As a pro musician, they didn't have those benefits, but damned, they sure sounded good.

We had a bluegrass fiddle player that could play better than Charlie Daniels, a lead guitar player that had a photographic memory and after hearing a song a single time, he could play it as good, or better, than the original, a drummer who could play Wipe Out without missing a beat, and myself, strumming my 12-string and singing. (The ladies loved my voice. ) Our sax player was inducted in the Musicians Hall of Fame when he was just 45 years old. Unfortunately, Jim died while performing at local marina while playing his sax to backing tracks. He had a massive heart attack and was pronounced dead at the scene.

Now, some of you may recall a You Tube video that had a 6-piece band playing on stage, then one by one, the musician put down his instrument and walked off stage, while the music continued to play. After the last band member walked off stage, a small curtain was opened revealing an arranger keyboard being played by an OMB entertainer. He sounded exactly the same as the live band and no one could tell the difference until he was revealed.

Now, did I sound better with my lowly arranger keyboards than I did when performing with a live band of pro musicians. Probably not! However, I was working every day of the week, and my old band members still felt fortunate to get one or two jobs a week at a local bar or nite club. Anyone that has been in this business for more than 4 decades will tell you that bars, restaurants, country clubs and nite clubs still pay the same as they did 50 years ago.

Now, there are exceptions. Captain Russ, who frequents this forum, makes a lot of money with music, however, not as an onstage performer. Russ, unlike most pro musicians took music to the next level, creating commercial videos for some of the top corporations in the world. And, those corporations pay top dollar for his product.

I also went another route for many years, doing voice overs for local automotive dealerships in and around Baltimore. It paid much better than any music job I ever had, but the work was very demanding and I wasn't having as much fun as I did while performing onstage with my arranger keyboard. Consequently, I pretty much gave into being an onstage entertainer and never looked back.

Now that I have retired, I mainly play the arranger keyboard and spend time trying to create new sounds and styles, which I give away to others so they can enjoy them as well. I always thought how it was hysterical, at least to me, to be looked down upon by the "so called" pros, who in reality, were not as successful as the guy sitting behind his arranger keyboard and working every day of the week. I think they may have been a bit jealous!

Gary

If the full band was only working one day a week, that’s hardly ‘pro’..! I played for decades in bands up to 10 piece that worked at least 4 nights a week, and the rhythm section would do additional gigs on off nights.

I hate to say it, Gary, but it rather sounds like your personal experience has rather turned your mind against an experience that gives joy and a decent living for countless thousands of musicians.

Diki, I thoroughly enjoyed playing with a full band, even got offered a cruise ship job with a large band, but the money just was not there, and still, to my knowledge, isn't. I know, personally, dozens of pro musicians, many of which were in the US Navy and US Army bands, and none of them ever played 4 nights a week. You must know some musicians that I never encountered during the decades I performed here in Maryland and in the Florida Keys. I did have a high school friend that eventually went to Nashville, cut a record. He made some really big bucks, but not as a musician. He worked as a waiter in an upscale restaurant where the bands (usually 5-piece) got $300 a night,and that was for the entire band. As a waiter, he managed to pull down about $400 a night in tips and salary.

When I worked in Baltimore's Little Italy at Delanote's Restaurant, I was paid $150 for a 4-hour Friday night. Every waiter and waitress made over $500 a night in salary and tips, mainly because it was frequented by professional ball players and they spent huge sums of money on outlandishly, overpriced food. The average tip was about 20% of the total, which on average was about $500 to $700 for a group of players and managers. Keep in mind these individuals were all hauling in $-millions a year for playing ball.

My friend Helmut Licht has a 17-piece big band, plays some huge events, and pays on average $75 per band member.

I talked with the guy who ran the Glenn Miller Orchestra, and they mostly hired locals for $75 performance.

Jerry and Elsa Burns, who performed regularly at DiNimo's Restaurant in Baltimore's Little Italy, were the best duo in the entire metro area. Elsa had a fantastic jazz voice and could sing the telephone book. Jerry, was a Peabody trained pianist, but could play a dozen other instruments, including vibes with 4 mallets. I remember clearly the day he told me that he would be playing at the White House with the Zim Zimmarel Orchestra and doing a 4 hour job in mid June, a time when the daytime temperature hit 100 degrees and relative humidity frequently hits 100 percent. I said "WOW! That's really great. Bet you'll get a big paycheck for that job." He said he wished that he would turned it down, mainly because it was outside in mid-afternoon and it only paid $75 and no expenses were covered.

Diki, I don't know about you, but I cannot survive on $150 gross income a day. After you subtract your travel expenses, equipment cost, maintenance and repairs to your van and gear, you could make more money working at McDonalds.

Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed playing with groups, and we had a lot of fun together. But that didn't pay the bills, and in most instances, didn't cover expenses. As an OMB entertainer, I was able to meet all my financial obligations, set up a couple retirement accounts for when I was no longer able to work, buy a sailboat big enough to live on, and still enjoyed playing music with my favorite instrument - an arranger keyboard.
Good luck,

Gary

Sorry, Gary, but if making money is the sole goal in life, music is a TERRIBLE way of ensuring it. I could have made so much money as a doctor or a lawyer that even a fully booked arranger ‘entertainer’ wouldn’t come close..!

And if you think the ‘musicians’ in your arranger are world class, you’ve never played with one. Sorry to be blunt, but the worst guitarist I know that I would consider a ‘pro’ can play circles round the best arranger in the world. The best of them play circles round me!

I wonder, with money apparently so important, and waiters making so much more than you did playing, how come you didn’t drop playing? Your logic suggests that’s the goal… Or perhaps playing music actually IS more important than money!?!

At any level… 🎹😎

The reason I didn't drop playing was because I was making a good living and having a Hell of a lot of fun in the process. If you recall, I worked in the medical profession for the better part of 15 years, made a reasonable income, helped a whole lot of people overcome health concerns, but after 15 years and seeing nice people die and feeling totally helpless to prevent their untimely deaths, I burned out. For the next 7 years I owned and operated a fishing tackle and marine retail store, but the hours were brutal, and when the economy went to Hell, I opted to do the thing I enjoyed most - play music. And, there were folks out there willing to pay me a reasonable sum for doing so. I operated my performances as a full-time business, and like any business, I was in it to make a profit. I accomplished those goals!

Gary

Actually, while most of my income comes from designing brochures, annual reports web sites, blogs, market research, packaging, P.O.S. collateral, etc., I have always played live. In the 62 years I have been working, before Covid, I had had 9 weeks off from playing at least 4 nights a week. I started at 12 years old at an Officer's Club at Ladd AFB in Fairbanks, Alaska.

Playing live, in real time keeps me grounded. I also used the time to rehearse. I'd go over a tune and have a similar tune in my head so I could "bail out" if I "bombed" and finish with the tune I was more familiar with. Never got caught, by the way.

I often use an arranger in a club (house) setting. It's always a Ketron, with the 13 note pedal-board. I have a piano of some kind at my right hand and a portable SKSS Hammond on top. That way, I initiate drum starts and stops, breaks, etc. with my foot, sweeten with the right hand, and access left hand bass and Hammond sounds with the top keyboard.

Basically, I'm using the pedal-board, combined with the left hand to take some of the automation feel out of the process when just using the arranger.

Pro's who come see me see three keyboards, foot pedals and lots of "run up" bass lines impossible to do in arrange mode. I get lots of questions, but not much criticism.

I do at least 3 film scores a month, but miss playing live. Thought I never would. but now believe that playing 2 hours live is better than practicing for 4 hours.

Calling me a pro musician is a bit of a stretch. I write, storyboard, shoot and edit the films I work on. Music is the "sweetener" not provided by most other producers. At a $15,000.00 budget for a 10 minute film, most producers use "needle drop" music; simply layering it and fading off at the end of the film. The resulting product is pretty dry.

Music brings me joy, pays the bills and gives me a real advantage in the marketplace. I also get lots of high end Corporate jobs from the people I produce for. And, they always want to grab the mike and introduce me as the producer of the project just completed. Then, I play the piece, and the film is run.


Man, has music been good to me!


Russ

Russ, music has been really good to me, as well. I've always said it was the best job I ever had in my life.

All the best,

Gary

Most Important Gary You blessed so many people lives with your talents and Music! You also really enjoyed what you did. You provided for Your family, invested wisely(very important) for retirement, a beautiful home and grand sail boat sailing the east coast north to south. I would say your a PRO in everything You do and done. What the hell what keyboard you used I don't get it at all. This topic has come up a 100 times before on this forum, maybe that's why most people have moved away from this forum? Oh by the way not many pro's as we think we know have experienced anything close....You are a very HUMBLE Man. Best wishes Harold from western Pa.

Thanks Harold, I truly appreciate your comments.

Gary

You are welcome....Yourself, Donny P ,Don Mason, Fran and so many others is what made this ARRANGER forum enjoyable for so many years. Plus all the help you all provided and making friends along the way. Those days are gone sad to say. Thank You all again. Harold from western Pa. By the way Gary My new Bose hearing aides are working Great!

I'm surprised that you are willing to debase yourself by making such big-headed statements.
Is there only you who knows what a Pro or world class musician is?
Why does Gary or the rest of us not know what a Pro or world class musician is?
The definition of Pro is simply someone who earns their living at that particular thing.
Why should we have any reason to believe there are any Pro's on this forum who are any better than ourselves.
The word Pro is so overused on here by guys who are trying to put themselves up on a pedestal.

What is more important in this world is whether someone is a nice guy and Gary is universally acclaimed for that.
Apart from on this forum, I have never heard of Abacus, Diki or any of the other "Pro proclaimers" who don't impress me at all.
You are entitled to believe that everyone looks down on someone who uses auto-accompaniment if you wish but in reality,
that is only your opinions which don't matter at all to the rest of us.
This sounds to me as though some of those who proclaim themselves to be Pro's are very insecure and need to bolster their image by pulling others down.
Arrangers have auto accompaniment so that anyone who doesn't have access to a band can still play without sounding a bit EMPTY.
The guys who play with a band sound just as EMPTY when the band is not there.
We all play differently in the same way we all cook a meal differently and no other has the right to say "only my way is right".
Why not drop your insecurities and boasting and use the arranger forum to post about arrangers with or without auto accompaniment.
If you dislike auto accompaniment so much, you could always go on piano or organ forums where they don't discuss such like.
I played organs for many years in pubs & clubs and wish I had a good Hammond in my home at this moment but,
I live in a home, not a studio and, I wouldn't be able to take it with me when I go out.
I never knew there were such people as instrument snobs with inflated ideas of their own importance.

Hi Anthony Johnson
I have never claimed to be a pro so stop claiming otherwise, I am fully a home hobby player who has also been using computers for music since the early 80s.
I have met many musicians over time and still keep in touch.
Arranger keyboards came from the easy play features of organs where they claimed you could play with just one finger, unfortunately they shot themselves in the foot as the Japanese came in with a keyboard that could be played with one finger in each hand and was smaller and a fraction of the price of an organ plus could be hidden in the cupboard when that quickly became bored with it. (Why learn to play a big organ when you could just press a button and have pretty much everything done for you and hence the demise of the home organ began)
Arranger keyboards are and always have been designed for the home hobby player, NOT professional musicians, but just because something was not designed for a particular type of use, does not preclude it from being used in that type of environment, however if you want the best you use the instrument that is best for the job, (If you want a real piano sound use a piano) an arranger keyboard is a jack of all trades and a master of none, that is the fact, if you don’t like it, hard cheese, just suck it up. (Putting it on a pedestal doesn’t make it more than what it is)
Here’s a question, how many professional arranger keyboard players in the world do people know about either through radio, TV, recordings and other types of media, then ask yourself how many piano, organ, trumpet, synth players etc. are out there that people know about? (The answer is there are virtually no arranger players that people know about because the instrument is not designed for pros but for the home hobby player)
Finally the ones you complain about on here actually answered my question with some great views from many others, and is what makes a forum.

Bill

Come on over to DMs forum. There is no vitriol and a lot of love. I enjoy watching any skill level, arranger or not. It comes to mind when I think of my late Dad, who really chewed up the chords He always had a big smile on his face. How can one strip anyone of that joy? His joy is what got me started down the wonderful world of music.

Good luck to all. This is my last post on this forum.

Hi Abacus
Ths is the post where you started this thread "Why do arranger players suck to pros?
Why on earth should you want or need to be writing from the view of a pro when you admit you are not one?
Why would you insult and talk so condescendingly to arranger players?
Remember, you are not calling the arranger now but the players themselves
Why should you spout about how we need to sound as though you are some world class expert.
Unlike you, I am not simply a home player and I have entertained in pubs and clubs for many years. My first 2 jobs were playing regular weekends on piano although I wouldn't claim to be a pianist but I was asked to do it.
I then moved to organs and have played for many years on those.
Since I parted from my last organ job, I let my organ go and bought an arranger keyboard which was meant for home playing but was asked to take it to a pub and finished up taking it to quite a few pubs after that.
Upon retiring, I started playing free of charge at the nursing home my Mum was in and more or less turned the place into a social club.
After all those years entertaining, why should I be insulted and belittled by you or anyone else by telling me that pro's look down on me because I play an arranger and use auto accompaniment?
What has it to do with you or your so called "pro" friends, what I play or how I play it and I speak now for every arranger player.
Why do you have such big ego's and why delight in going onto an arranger forum to insult the members who are really nice guys and who are just sharing the love of music.
Why not stop being such narcissists and stop trolling, because that's what you are doing.
I can probably give you advice but I won't because I am just a musician and an entertainer and I don't have a big ego.

Hi zuki,
Thanks for the invite. I didn't know about DM's forum so I don't know the web address to go to but will visit when I find it.
Anthony

Here ya go: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2819613151594818

Here's another great forum I frequent that is loaded with some incredibly talented individuals: https://www.keyboardplayers.club/

Gary

I just wonder, if making money ISN’T the focus of one’s life Gary, why you often show such scorn for musicians who eschew the easy money of doing a single so they can still practice the art of music making with others?

Without musicians like that, you would never have learned the art of playing in the first place. It just seems rather petty to laugh at them now for making less than you did because they still wanted to play with each other. And comparing their salary to a waiter’s (while you admit even you made less) to somehow justify your decision to go solo doesn’t seem to make sense. Either money is the object or it isn’t.

Having made the admission that your going home happy is what made it worth while getting out of a better paid medical job, why doesn’t it ever occur to you that those large band musicians feel the exact same way? About playing with just a machine…

Why don't you just put it to rest Diki? You keep this going this forum will die completely. I don't get it! Harold

Read my post again, there is nothing in there that belittles arranger players, anyone that uses one live, or says that they are second class etc. (You need to get out of your woke bubble and realise everybody has opinions and they may not agree with you, but they are not personal attacks on you)
As far as I am concerned this matter is now closed as all the members that replied on here (Except you) answered my question and gave their opinions which I always value (Why would I be on the forum if I didn’t) as they are genuine and like all genuine people they accept all peoples views, (And are happy to post their own knowing that they will be treated as such) and this is what makes a good forum. (Do heated discussions occur, yes, just like they do down the pub, and like discussions down the pub things move on to other topics (Like whose round is it) as discussions continue)

Bill

The very subject line of your original post is an insult to arranger players before you even read the rest.
"Why do arranger players suck to pros"
You think it's perfectly all right and friendly to tell someone that they suck because they play arrangers.
I'm surprised none of your musician friends ever gave you a good slap.

I own three TOTL arrangers and don't feel insulted. What is seriously missing here is understanding what's actually been said. And I'm definitely missing the part where's been said that arranger players suck. Once again a case of miscomprehension.

"Why do arranger players suck to pros?"

That's a question, NOT a statement.

"I'm surprised none of your musician friends ever gave you a good slap."

Assault is how you handle things? Geez!

I love this place – let’s end this post.

John C.

You don't understand because you have not read the post properly -
That which you have not seen, is the headline or subject line of this very thread.
I don't particularly care whether I suck to pros or anyone else but
that's a weird question for a home player to ask me.
Why come on a arranger website just to criticise arranger players?
What is he doing on an arranger website if he doesn't like arrangers or the guys who play them.
You may be happy to let him ask you why, as an arranger player, you suck, but I am not.
The guys a troll - you may not care but I do.

Oh, I'm sure that I read correctly. Again, a question is not a statement. It doesn't say "Arranger players suck to pros" and even if it said that, it's still not a personal opinion.

The question isn't directed at home players either. By the way, I'm a home player but that doesn't make me a worse player than a pro. I have a degree in Classical Music Performance (Organ).

I don't care if I suck at arranger keyboards (the technical aspects) as I see myself as an organist. Always have, always will.😁

Read in the GOLDEN LINE above your red flag or above my name.
It says "Why do arranger players suck to pros"
Correct?
I've already said that I don't care whether or not it offends you because it still offends me.
I also don't care what level of playing skill you are because my post is not directed at you.
I never said it was directed at home players.
I said that it was FROM a home player.
If you don't care whether you suck then , good for you, so why have you joined the debate?

You call this a debate? You're basically here to draw blood.

So your feelings are hurt, so what?

It says: Why do arranger players suck to pros?" What's wrong with that besides you seeing things that aren't there. How often do I have to repeat myself that it's a question and not a statement.

I agree with John c. Aka bruno123

Please no offence to anyone let's move on

Diki, my dad had some great, old sayings, one of which was "There's only one thing that money can't buy - POVERTY!"

It's called the music industry, music business, etc... Maybe you may enjoy living in poverty, but I, for one, do not. I treated this as a business and I was in it to make a profit. I was not a home, hobbyist player, though I enjoyed playing every instrument I laid my hands on. I was the booking agent, bookkeeper, tax accountant, advertising agent, repair guy, and most of all, I was the onstage performer. All this took lots of time, dedication, hard work and discipline. Through it all, though, I still managed to find time to spend with my family, took the wife and children out on the boat to go fishing and sailing, went to my son's little league games, and sat in the audience while my daughter performed gymnastics at a very young age, doing back flips, which was very scary.

I taught myself how to play a 6-string guitar at age 12, then graduated to a 12-string guitar at age 21, a mandolin at age 23, then graduated to an arranger keyboard. I was a self taught piano player at age 5, and while my parents thought I was very talented, I just was not happy with that instrument. While I am self taught and can read music, but not enough to hinder my playing and entertainer skills.;) I guess it would be fair to say that I would be a better player had I attended Peabody Institute in Baltimore for a few years, but despite the lack of formal training, I did manage to get along in the Music Industry. Almost forgot, I did take a college course called "Voice and Articulation" which was taught by one of the mid-Atlantic Region's best jazz singers. I learned a lot from Maryanne P. and she really put an emphasis on diction. I later encountered a lady in Nashville that taught diction to many of the top singers throughout the nation, including Elvis and many other country and rock stars.

So, Diki, is it about the money, or is it the love of playing? Well, from my viewpoint, it's both. I damned well would not be very happy if I could not support my wife and children and I have always been of the opinion that if a person is not happy in their job, they should do something else where they would be more productive and happier. Ironically, many of the full-time entertainers I came across during my years as a musical entertainer, included a lot of great, pro musicians that switched from other instruments to an arranger keyboard. Some of which frequented this forum in past years, and many of them called upon me for my technical expertise when they encountered difficulties with their keyboards. For the most part, I was able to help them overcome the problems. I still do this today, and two days ago, helped an old friend with creating a special, setup registration on his SX-900. I still solve problems for individuals on this, and a couple other arranger keyboard forums.

I sincerely wish you and a few others would stop this incessant squabbling about who is a pro and who is not, and who's keyboard is better, etc... This kind of activity usually leads to the demise of what was a great forum just a few years ago. Just in case you have not noticed, most of the individuals that made this a great forum have left. I have been here for a lot of years, and still believe that I can continue to help others with their technical issues, and assist them in making a livable income in the Music Industry. When I can no longer do this, I will check out, just like my friend Zuki (Jim) did yesterday.

Good luck,

Gary

Taike, I guess you could call this a question, but the title makes an assumption that ALL PROS THINK THAT ARRANGER KEYBOARD PLAYERS SUCK!

In reality, I believe this statement only applies to a few "so called" pros on this particular forum. For the most part, I have found that most of the pro musicians I encountered in my lifetime don't think that way at all. And, many, many of them eventually transitioned from whatever instrument they were schooled on to an arranger keyboard, if for no other reason, the financial aspect. When I did encounter a pro musician, some of which were retired, they often came up to me and said "Wow! I cannot believe how much you are able to get out of that keyboard - it really sounds incredible." Not a single one of them every said "Arranger keyboard players suck." This never happened. And, I seriously doubt that you would ever see this statement other than an internet post. I would not even consider making such a statement to someone, in person, or online, even if I didn't like their instrument of choice.

Good luck,

Gary

I honestly believe Nigel Spencer would have shut down this Topic long ago. I feel bad for Mrs. Spencer seeing how this forum is going south since her husband's passing. Sincerely Harold

How SAD! I actually thought things were getting better around here.

So sorry, Kerry.


Russ

We are victims of what is happening around us. We are doing the best to stay positive – parts of our thinking are troubled. I had to write my thoughts to get to our subject;

I love SZ, Nigel created something beyond the normal forum. It was more like a family that loved music and keyboards – and people. Made some of my best music friends. Some have passed on. Some, I still have contact with.

I am asking for a change in mind that will search to rebuild what Nigel created. If you feel disappointed, look at yourself first – that is where it all starts.

I hope I have not said to much, if I have, I apologies. If I write another post, it will be in the Bar, or PM.

I LOVE SYNTHZONE ZONE, John C.

I joined Synthzone while in Graduate school, studying the differences between face-to-face communication, conventional communication (telephone, conventional writing, etc.) and on-line communication.

I bought my first arranger after I joined. The group was perfect because the main subject involved something (music and musical equipment) that had been a big part of my life and livelihood.

Very soon, what rally mattered were the members...Chas...Gary....Zuki Nigel...Kerry, Rachel and a number of others.

I use my arranger in a different way then most, so the technical information has become less important to me, while the interaction between my now very good friends is life-affirming.

WE are ALL better than what this group has become. For years, I had minimal contact with Gary(Travelin' Easy), because of differences about literally everything musical, medical, social, political and MORE. Think Trump hater and Trump supporter. Think global warming differences.

But one day, I thought of all the good that my friend represents....what he has accomplished. The great family man he is. The unselfish help he has given anytime he is asked. His success an an arranger entertainer.

Now, if I don't talk to him for a few days, I get worried.

And that, is a part of who I now am.


Please, let's all see the good in each other. We need to maintain our ideals, but allow others the latitude to be different. And, if the differences are not harming anybody, SO WHAT?


I think I'll go call my buddy Chas now. Talked to Gary yesterday.


Differences and all, you folks are ALL important to me.


Best PERSONAL wishes,


Russ (sentimental old fool) Lay

I think a group-wide re-evaluation of this group and ourselves is warranted.

Please see my post above:


Russ (old softie) Lay

I think Bill (the OP) has some valid thoughts, and was trying to perhaps start a well meaning discussion, but the title of this post is a bit ill mannered, negative and condescending.

In reality, Captain Russ and I have a lot more in common than you may think. Sure, we disagree on politics (I'm right- he's wrong. ), but we both did a lot of the same things throughout our lifetimes, broadcast TV and Radio, photography, video editing and production, voice overs and many others. However, I sincerely believe the thing both of us enjoyed most was helping others in any way we possibly could. Over the past few years, we have kept in touch on a weekly basis, often discussing the various aspects of music. Now, I only played and owned 4 guitars and a mandolin before transitioning to an arranger keyboard. Russ owns more guitars than most music stores in my part of the world. I think he owns guitars that cost more than my van. ;), but now he's in the process of selling many of them.

Love ya, Russ, keep in touch,

Gary (the old codger.)

So do I believe...
This forum was already under intensive care and I think this topic is killing it...
Condescendance, self-satisfaction, remembering of the past, making divisions, congratulations between happy few friends ...
Arrangers are disappearing and, anyhow, this world and people are changing ...
I don't have the same pleasure coming here and come scarcely since this topic...

I believe I pointed out the fallacy of the title of the original post in my first reply to this thread…

‘Pros’ DO NOT HATE ARRANGERS. The way the thread was titled, it assumes something utterly false.

But conveniently ignores something a lot more difficult to admit. Pros don’t hate arrangers… but they may hate utterly unskilled players using them to make a living and taking jobs away from musicians that can actually play. And this attitude might easily be confused with a disdain for the type of keyboard these kinds of players use.

Perhaps we all need to ask ourselves why we even take a silly question based on something obviously wrong seriously in the first place? If I had a dollar for every time this hoary chestnut was dragged into the light of day, maybe Gary wouldn’t look down on me! It’s a perennial topic, pulled out and discussed with much hand wringing at least a couple of times a year. It’s a toxic weed that seems impossible to eradicate.

Thing is, it seems to reveal more about us than these supposed ‘pros’…. After all, we’re the ones who apparently believe it. Why would we, unless we did harbor some suspicion that they were right a little bit?! Me, I don’t believe it a bit.

But I can see the confusion. I would imagine that pros could quite easily look down on some of the players using them. But don’t worry. They would probably dislike the same player if they were playing a piano, or organ, or synthesizer or workstation. So, stop thinking it’s the type of keyboard.

It’s the player…

Diki, I never looked down on you. You are a very skillful player and,apparently, worked very long and hard to achieve that level. And, you have absolutely no conceivable idea of my playing skills or any of my other abilities, having only met you one time in Florida and you and Randy were the guys playing my arranger keyboard. If you recall, I didn't play anything that evening, and most of the time was sitting around in my motel room talking about things other than playing skills. I remember we talked about the low pay-scale of nite club and bar musicians, and why I switched to performing the senior circuit. That was a long time ago, but my mind has not gone to Hell, yet, so I still can vividly recall events that took place 20 years ago, or more.

Gary

I think this sums it up very well. 👍
(And it probably applies regardless of what kind of musical instrument we try to master).

Same here, Gary. And, FYI, I just sold an old axe for more than I paid for my last house....Think $3000,000 plus. Have sold 13 for more than $10,000 in the last 90 days.

Funds are going to musicians less fortunate that I am.


R.

Well, Gary, I still take gigs more on who I am getting to play with than how much they pay. Guess I still consider it an art, not a business!

Yes, I’m primarily solo these days, but that’s more a function of how few bands there are in my area, and even fewer that play music I like, and even fewer that don’t use tracks! But offer me a band gig with great players, I couldn’t care less what it pays…

Diki, I was never independently wealthy, and the gigs were my sole source of income, to the money came first. My dad always said "If the job is worth doing, it's worth being paid to do it." Dad was pretty damned smart for a person with very little formal education.

Cheers,

Gary