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#503304 - 07/19/21 10:34 AM BK-9 from one PERF. Sett. to next sound cuts out
Dengizich Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/21
Posts: 50
I've been having this issue when I go from one performance setting to the next (while playing a song), the previous sound totally cuts out when I hit the next performance button.

Or if it doesn't cut out, than you can here a little glitch.

In other words it's not a seeming less transition from one performance setting to another within a song.

I noticed some Tones are easier on transitions and they blend in fine, but others just go dead silent once the next Perf. Set. button is pressed.

To go around this problem I used the same sound for Upper 2 in all the Perf. Settings., and didn't even turn them On. Plus their Volume level had to be the same, in order for the Upper 1 to be a smooth transition going to the Next Perf. Setting.

Any idea what is causing it? , I saw youtube comments complaining about this same issue.

FYI. Updated to 1.06 in my opinion it has a bug, sometimes I save a performance setting with data, and once I restart the keyboard it's like I didn't save anything. Very frustrating, wish I would've never updated, and I can't even go back to 1.05.

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#503305 - 07/19/21 12:51 PM Re: BK-9 from one PERF. Sett. to next sound cuts out [Re: Dengizich]
TedS Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 725
Loc: North Texas, USA
Hm. Diki this sounds like a pretty serious allegation. What version of the OS are you running? I can't say that I've experienced these issues, but then again I don't do a lot of real time stuff with performances, I tend to use the variations and OTS for transitions within a song. Following...

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#503327 - 07/21/21 09:58 PM Re: BK-9 from one PERF. Sett. to next sound cuts out [Re: Dengizich]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13349
Loc: NW Florida
Sounds to me like there are differences in the MFX settings as you change Performances. I get pretty much seamless transitions between Performances (I’m on the latest OS) as long as the sounds have a) identical volumes and b) identical MFX.

The problems tend to happen mostly if the MFX changes from certain types, especially ones with long processing tails or other reasons for data to be churning around in there being processed. Think about if for a minute… you have a long delay with lots of repeats, you change to a sound with say a long reverb MFX, what happens to the sound in the echo’s buffer when the algorithm is changed to the reverb?

Most digital FX gear shuts down the audio output while new algorithms are loaded, usually shutting off the audio output of the processed signal. This avoids some horrible artifacts from blasting out the speakers (just imagine if the long tail of a reverb suddenly got routed into a guitar amp on 11!).

So in all likeliness, this is what’s happening. The only other times you’ll tend to hear an abrupt cut off is going from some of the SN sounds or the HB section to the regular engine. That’s pretty understandable, as they are different tone engines.

But basically, once you understand what’s going on, you can generally plan ahead for your transitions, make sure that, as you change Performances, the new one has the old sound and effects but on a muted Part (the sound will continue to sound if you are still holding the notes or sustaining them) at the identical settings from the previous Perf. and the new sound active.

I will post it up soon (have to check if I’ve got a good live recording somewhere) but I recently dealt with this problem doing a cover of Al Stewart’s ‘Year of the Cat’ tune, which has a big triple solo in the middle of acoustic guitar, rock guitar and sax, and each one overlaps the other. I ended up using four Performances to do the whole lot seamlessly and be able to switch back to the main piano comp for the verses and choruses. And for the very reason Dengizitch points out…

If you go from say the sax to the distorted guitar sound and have them on the same Part, the sax tail gets run through the cranked up guitar amp MFX as you change! Ouch!

Keep an eye out for this soon….

But to return to the OP, no, on the whole, as long as levels are consistent, the only reason you should get a glitch is a change of MFX on the same Part. Or transitioning from HB and SN tones to normal tones.

Trust me, Roland is MUCH better at going seamlessly from one held patch to another than most manufacturers, but you can’t expect miracles. Most keyboards until pretty recently would cut out completely on patch transitions. Roland have been able to hold sustained sounds over patch boundaries since the Sound Canvas… 😎🎹
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#503350 - 07/24/21 06:40 AM Re: BK-9 from one PERF. Sett. to next sound cuts out [Re: Diki]
Dengizich Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/21
Posts: 50
Diki, thank you for your reply.

So as long as the Volume and the MFX are identical things should be OK.

I should program the second performance with the same sound, and same volume, and on the same PART as in the previous, but muted, let’s say for Upper 1.

Upper 2 could have the new sound that I want to transition to, and unmuted.

The third performance would have Upper 2 same sound as the second performance, but Muted, while Upper 1 could have a different sound unmuted.

I SEE! But if I have 8 performance buttons programmed for a song, with the above method I can only go in a sequence, like from 1 to 2, from 2 to 3, from 3 to 4 etc. Otherwise going from 8 to 1 might create a glitch.

Usually I start with a single performance, and I go from there, I mean I save the next one from there, kind of like a template. So the MFX settings should be the same, am I correct?

I think my problem is what you mentioned the SN sounds (I assume this stands for Supernatural Sounds), and HB section (this stands for Harmonic Bar sounds). And the regular engine you mean the 1718 sounds (minus the 22 SN sounds).
Correct me if I’m wrong!

So the problem is that I do go from SN sounds to regular engine sounds, I didn’t think that would be a problem, but now that you pointed that out.

I will have to try these things out, a very good input on your part Diki, Thank you!

It’s funny ‘cause I was about to buy a Korg EK-50 and I was watching a video where the guy didn’t use the performance buttons to go from one performance to the next, he only used the part mute section on the keyboard. I asked him what’s the reason for that, he said if he uses the performance buttons (or Set List like Korg calls them), the rhythm has a glitch for a millisecond. Could this guy have the same issue, like what I have?

Except my problem is not the rhythm, but the sounds

Let me give it a try, see if it solves the problemo...

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#503353 - 07/24/21 09:33 AM Re: BK-9 from one PERF. Sett. to next sound cuts out [Re: Dengizich]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13349
Loc: NW Florida
Only the sound glitches occasionally on the Roland’s, the style, SMF or audio file is completely unaffected.

Don’t forget, one of the 4 SW switches can be tasked to alternating between UPR1 & UPR2… no need for a new Performance at all. If you have an FC7, this can also be one of your switches. In fact, an FC7 can also do Perf up/down (sadly, there’s no MIDI command for this, you have to call each Performance up by actual number), so you can do most of this hands free.

It has only been in a very few of the absolute latest generation keyboards that have so many insert effects that the ability to go seamlessly from one complete patch to another has appeared. As you are beginning to see, it’s quite a complex task when there aren’t as many MFX as there are Parts. As little as they use them (you won’t find many factory styles with any MFX on them at all!) it seems a shame that the two of the three style/SMF MFX couldn’t be used on the LWR & MBS Parts so we didn’t have to jump through these hoops. But I imagine it is a hardware thing rather than a deliberate design restriction.

To be honest, unless doing something incredibly complex, I doubt you’ll need eight seamless sound changes for many tunes! Most of the time, I can get away with a couple of Performances. It’s not too often that lead sounds need to overlap… But back in the days of organists when they finally got programmable ones, it was usual to program a chain of registration changes for the entire piece and simply step through them with a switch on the side of the swell pedal. After all, organists have both hands and a foot pretty busy!

There’s no reason, if you need an incredibly complex patch chain for a particular song, that you can’t just put them in order top to bottom and simply advance through the chain in order, using a Perf Up switch. Remember, you can always use Copy Performance to duplicate sections of the chain, so once your basic chunks are worked out, repeating a section doesn’t mean you have to do all that programming again!

But RANDOM access to the sounds, well yes, that does really complicate things. Best not to worry too much about that. Wouldn’t all possible permutations of just four sounds require sixteen Performaces just so there’s no MFX overlap?! 😱😂
Perhaps not, though. Remember, in Whole Mode, the LWR & MBS Parts can be used with MFX, which might avoid a volume jump on a certain transition.

And you might also find that not ALL MFX transitions have very obvious artifacts. Going from one delay to another, or one chorus to another might not introduce a serious glitch. Only experimentation will find that out, though… you may also be able to change parameters within an MFX across a Perf. Change without the effect clearing its register, again, experiment.

The good news is that Yamaha have started making arrangers with up to 28 insert effects (on the Genos) and even the SX900 has eight, so it looks like this may pressure the industry to move towards making worrying about effects transitions a thing of the past.

It’s just a shame Roland won’t be a part of this brighter future… 😔
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#503398 - 07/28/21 09:59 PM Re: BK-9 from one PERF. Sett. to next sound cuts out [Re: Dengizich]
Dengizich Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/21
Posts: 50
I fired up my BK-9 today, and I did what you suggested for Upper1 I kept the same sound in both performance settings, but muted on the other Perf., it worked like a charm. I programmed the performance settings in a sequence, going forward all the time (I use a second sustain pedal for that), it worked very good.

Thank you so much for sharing that info, if I run into this problem again, I'll have a solution.

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#503403 - 07/30/21 11:56 AM Re: BK-9 from one PERF. Sett. to next sound cuts out [Re: Dengizich]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13349
Loc: NW Florida
If you would like the control input back for a swell pedal, or would like to step through Performances both forward and backwards, if you can’t find an FC7, you can always just wire regular foot pedals into the FC7 input. Several companies make dual tablet type footswitch units, and as long as Roland polarity, you just solder an FC7 type DIN connector to the end and you are good to go.

Just remember, the FC7 assignments are global, not per Performance. I have also heard of people using the Korg EC5 pedal unit (which is still in production) and either using an adaptor or rewiring to put the DIN connector on it. The FC7 input is only for simple switches, so there’s no electronics circuitry needed…

And, don’t forget, if you only need the two lead sounds with no interruption of the sound, the Assign SW’s can easily (per Performance) use Change Up 2/1 so you don’t need a Performance change at all!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#503407 - 07/30/21 07:16 PM Re: BK-9 from one PERF. Sett. to next sound cuts out [Re: Dengizich]
Dengizich Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/21
Posts: 50
I have the FC7 pedal, and I also rigged up some industrial purpose plastic pedals on a peg board, I would include a photo, but I'm not sure why it wouldn't allow me? any idea?

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#503414 - 07/31/21 11:15 AM Re: BK-9 from one PERF. Sett. to next sound cuts out [Re: Dengizich]
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 13349
Loc: NW Florida
Okay. Yeah, an FC7 solves about everything. For me, the placement of the Inc/Dec buttons is pretty poor to use while playing. It’s a shame Perf. Up/Down can’t be tasked to the Assign SW… My LH is hovering around the bend lever a lot of the time!

Check the format of your picture and the size of the file. Or alternately, use a hosting site for the picture and link to it here.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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