When I play in the fingered cord mode I discovered that per example the cord Asmaj 79
is interpreted as Cmin7 on the KN 6000

I counted the cords which the KN 6000 can recognize in the fingered mode and that is 22

When I count the cords in the Yamaha 1000/2000 in the fingered mode I count 35

I tried the Asmaj 79 on the Yamaha 2000 or
any other cheap Yamaha model and he could read it perfect!!

My question is:
Why can't Technics compete with Yamaha?!!

I'm thinking of buying the new coming TYROS
instead of the new KN 7000 who has probably the same cord recognizing.

Gerrit Bosman.

does the chord Asmaj 79 contain the notes c/eb/g/Bb in any particular order? because these are the notes of cmin7 .
I have never seen asmaj7 come up on any yamaha or technics machine I have ever used,
I am puzzled
jan

hi Jan:

play as/bes/c/es/g

Gerrit

Those notes give me Amin79 on the KN6500
jan

[This message has been edited by kozykeys (edited 06-21-2002).]

Thanks Jan for the info
bye Gerrit

Hey Gerrit,

Old Grampa Doug has been around a long time. I thought I have seen everything. Every time I say that somebody comes up with something I never saw. My rich uncle gave me a free two and a half year cruise to most of the islands of the pacific in the fourties. The only area I did not see was Europe. Played my sax and licorice stick over many waters. Ruthie made the remark one time I should have drowned them while I had a chance. She was elated for a while after I lost my teeth and had to quit the band. She was not her old self. Too happy and too content . The quiet was more than I could endure. To remedy this I invested in my first KN. Very good I thought but still too soft, not like the old band. Good speakers, big speakers, some for each channel. Now we're cooking. Ruthie was her old self. Great. She got her gripes back and I lost a little more of my hearing. Just like old times.

All this american music. Learning all the chords and jazz chords. Now in my old age there is somebody rocking my boat. Gerrit why are you doing this to me. Why do they do things in the Netherlands to through me off here in the US of A. I know an A chord. I know an Amaj chord. I know an A sixth chord, an A ninth, an Am, an AM, A -5, A +5, A sus4 and a Amaj69 and a few more, but what in the heck is it when you throw a (s) into the mix? Asmaj69?

I asked Ruthie, when I play my beautiful music for you and those beautiful chords float through the air into those cute little ears of yours and I ad a (s) to the chord, what do I do to the chord. Easy she retorted. You do that many times without even trying. I do? I said. Well how does it sound I said, expecting I did something wonderful for a change. Maybe it sounds sort of continental I mused. She brought me back to reality when she gave her opinion of what the (s) meant. It means you sound like S_ _ _! Ruth I should have had more sense than to ask you. Your
just ticked because you think I play too loud. All my fans like it. The only kind of fans you need is to blow the stink away she quipped as she walked into the kitchen.

Guess I'll just have to ask Gerrit. What kind of a chord does adding an s make it?

Grampa Doug

That's got me baffled too, Grandpa.!!Jean.

this is continental chord notation.

B = H

Bb = Ais or A# = B

# = is so that C# = Cis, D# = Dis, F# = Fis, G# = Gis

b = s or es so that Db = Des, Eb = Es, Gb = Ges, Ab is As

I think that's the lot! now go figure the chords!

On Technics if it's not in fingered, it's in pianist. On Yamaha they have a mode that combines both fingered and single finger chords so you can swap between either.

I knew Australia was the best place to live!! Now I know why!! Jean.

I have a KN1400 but am new to this and aspiring for the KN7K :-) Played accordion for 20 years from age 10, then the demands of working in the computer industry cut severely into practice time for 20 years, now am picking it back up.

I tried this out in Pianist mode and the display is AsM79 which is correct. If you take out the Bflat key you have an AflatMajorSeventh displayed as AsMaj7 so when the 9th is added in I guess the display folds up the Maj to just M.

In fingered mode I get As add 9 and in one finger mode which would be bogus regardless it shows es min 7

The notes Ab- Bb- C- Eb- G which make up the Ab Maj 7,9 register as C min 7 on the 6500,However on my Roland G 800, which is about 6 years old now, it registers correctly as Ab maj 7 9 and it will also give me an Ab maj 7 9 #11 in fact it gives any chord asked for.Cheers Jean.

it only registers Cmin7 in fingered, in pianist it registers AbM79 (and #11s).

It's all pretty academic anyway since with 8 tracks of backing playing and 2 tracks of a pad on top you won't hear the difference.

If you want to play jazz like this play bass and piano only with on-bass in pianist mode and use all the inversions properly. Then you'll get all the subtleties. Otherwise it's a waste of time with all the automatics going.

Let's face it, once your past 9ths there's usually 2 or 3 ways of naming the same chord anyway depending on root and other stuff...

This is interesting stuff.!!! I meant to add that I had both keyboards in "split" mode.I have given up trying to play jazz chords in "split" mode- I save that for the organ. since I am not a pianist, and I can play the root in the base, and as you say Alec, there is so much going on there isn't much point in it. Sometimes a 9th works O.K. However I have found that if I dont get the right chord registering on the screen the base will not play the correct notes.For example, If I play the Ab major 7 9 as above and it registers as C min 7 I get the bass playing a C instead of an Ab. My teacher is very pedantic about this and listens to the baseline very carefully, If I put the "on bass" on it means I have to play every chord with the required note at the bottom and that may not be in the most familiar inversion -Just for the sake of a couple of chords. I have at times muted the bassline and sequenced in my own which means I can vary the bass to my own liking. What do you think of this? No good for playing "live" I know but I am mostly concerned with sequencing for "backings" for my choir.
Although I have compared the Roland and the 6500 in this feature the 6500 is far more versatile in what you can do with it. I am utterly astounded at its performance. No one keyboard can have everything- I think you just have to work out what is important to you personally. Reguards. Jean.

Gotta agree with Alec on this one. If you want your keyboard to sound like a piano, why didn't you just buy an EP or a PR series? If you only play for yourself, then you can be as demanding as you like, but if most of your playing is for the enjoyment of others, mostly non-players, then who cares what the chord notation is? Ninty-nine percent of your listening audience can tell if you move to a minor chord or up to a seventh, but if you whistled in their ear when you went farther, they still wouldn't notice the difference! Give them a good sounding, toe-tapping song each time, and they will applaud your efforts. Go classical on them, and they will go to the bar for another drink and your splendid effort will fall on deaf ears. Sorry, but I subscribe to the George Martin "Keep it simple" school of thought.

[This message has been edited by Bud Whipple (edited 06-24-2002).]

Jean, the fact that your are Wanting to create Baselines of your own show that you are very musically aware and that it can be "bettered" by using "your" own basses (bettered to suit you Jean) and that is very good and shows you have a good imagination and aptitude for music as a whole. I tried this on My KN1000 when I had this model (great in it's day, and still good, despite it's limited "note capacity” of around 6500/7500 notes, and the inability to copy notes without using up more memory. I played the Song "Nikita" (by Elton John), on the KN1000/Korg M1 and to get that professional sound to my bass, I had to sequence these lines. One could always stick to the default bass patterns provided by the keyboard…but I also felt that I had to add my own figurations to give it a more "professional" edge. Same with the drums too. The Fill-ins were ok, but not EXACTLY what I wanted!. I love creativity -

Yes Bud, keep it simple, but let not one be afraid to get the sound THEY want...even if it only pleases the player(s)

Good luck Jean


J5



[This message has been edited by Jupitar5 (edited 06-24-2002).]

I agree with Jean that some songs don't sound right with automatic bass, and the alternative is to use on-bass and learn the proper inversions and roots. Sequencing the bass is perfectly viable, easier than practising the inversions etc required, why not? Only a purist would object, and why is a purist playing an auto general arranger?

But I also agree with Bud that a clever and interesting backing can fool the unwary listener, where perhaps it can mask the auto bass and still provide a perfectly acceptable performance for the majority of listeners. Again, a purist may object, but the same argument.

It's all down to personal taste - let's drink to personal taste!

.

It's all down to personal taste - let's drink to personal taste! [/B][/QUOTE]

Have I missed something?. who's buying?. Walter.

What I have read by all sounds interesting, but I stand by a fact that if you LEARN how to lay down a bass track in COMPOSER, you will never again be pleased with 99 percent of bass responses in pre-set rhythms. They sound fine when you play a "C" chord and listen to the complete rhythm - using it in a song in a PROFESSIONAL sounding way, is another matter. Sorry folks, in uneducated English, "It don't work!" Once you fully understand the limitations BUT proper placement of composing a bass line, you will understand that you won't have a problem with inversions. For a bass to work well in a song, these limitations become the old adage, "less, is more." What I have said in NO WAY is taking away from some very interesting ideas set forth in some of the pre-set rhythms, it is more the VARIATIONS that suffer badly. I have heard some very impressive INTROS and ENDINGS and on occasion, FILL-INS on pre-sets and then everything else falls flat. In reality, how could anyone think these pre-sets, based on 4 measures, could ever sound professional? They are purely done for the novice musician to "have fun" with. "Fun" is fine, but wouldn't you rather be a better musician? The KN6000/KN6500 has the ability to create music that is totally professional. LISTEN! And above all, listen to yourself and learn - you will be surprised what you will be able to come forth with, if you will just start using COMPOSER and create your own styles. One of the first things to learn laying down a track is to BE that musician - whether it be a bass player - understand, the way a bassist plays. He or she doesn't just "play" a note, they more often than not, "reach" for a note. You do this by "bending" the note with your PITCH BEND wheel. Keep in mind, when a bass player plays, he is more often than not, fingering up to a note. The same thing applies to a sax or guitar player - They just don't "play" notes, they bend (guitar) or cup (sax) a note. This is done, of course, in the RIGHT places. This gives you realism - life, to a performance. LOSE THE MECHANICAL SOUND. This applies especially to DRUM tracks. If a drum track doesn't sound well, the other tracks more than likely won't either. Again, listen and ask yourself, "Is this the way a drummer would play?" If it isn't, then experiment further with new ideas. Try different drum sounds and syncopated rhythms. YOU CAN DO IT!!!

I think we have 2 threads of discussion here. The first is one of style - playing a groove in the composer, using bend etc to mimic the slurs and fractional off the beat playing that gives a distinctive flavour rather than a mechanical repetition.

The second was one of note progression where the standard root progression is not enough, for whatever reason. Here you can practise your inversions and learn to use on-bass for those C on G type effects. Or simply sequence a different bass afterwards.

Or a third possibility that might work in a variety of situations is to use the chord modify change on the entire bass track, or on individual bass notes in the composer. Here you could define how the bass reacts to various chord changes beforehand, and still play normally with left hand live.

Alec. I will investigate that third possibility. Thank you for the suggestion. I have only just aquired the 6500 and am not a "pro',only a learner, but am very determined to find out everything it does.
I agree with Bud--If I play live, I play the most comfortable chords and being used to the organ, that means as little finger changing as possible. as Bud says you can get away with a few off notes, although when i play an Em7 on G and get a G6 with a base on G and D instead of E and B,I think I have to do better than this.
If I am putting down a backing for my choir the base is very important. Sometimes the men even vocalise the base line, so it has to be right. Apsrt from that every one has a taped copy to practice to so the "evidence" is floating around for months. At the stage I am at I think it is safer for me to sequence the bass in, after all I sequence in the other "voices"
Now, when I am learning a new song just to play "live" , I mute everything but the rythmn and the base-- this is in "split" mode as I am not a pianist,and I play the chords to see what I can get without too much jumping around. Sometimes a tritone substitution on the dominant gives a nice descending base line and is well worth it, so I understand what N.S.R is getting at although I still have to master the COMPOSER.Thank goodness I'm only 72 and have plenty of time left for all this. Thank you all. I love this forum. Cheers Jean.

[This message has been edited by Jean Olivia (edited 06-25-2002).]

Your third possibility, Alec would be better suited for the beginning player. It takes some familiarizing of CHORD MODIFY, with a lot of trial and errors to come up with what a player wants. CHORD MODIFY does well for people who use pre-sets. It is very good to use when a pre-set has the chord composed as a Major 7th, which can be a real pain in trying to use when playing deep harmonies. You will run into a problem of chord recognition every time. Getting around this is easy by going into GROUP and changing to Chord and CHORD MODIFY TYPE to CEG and click OK. One who is experienced in laying down tracks in COMPOSER will seldom use this or at least, I don't.

Getting back to bass sound - You can go into PART SETTING and change your Bass PITCH POINT. I generally set it to "E" because of the way the keyboard is designed. It will always play the higher F note and it sounds weak. By "E" being the cutoff, when you play an F, it will jump down an octave to the lower F and sound more resonant and fuller. On occasion, (but seldom) in composing a style, I will set it to respond to the higher F. It all depends on the style of music. An electric bass comes through well enough on the higher F. Using acoustic bass is another matter. It gets lost in your chord, with little resonance.

What I have discussed here is for what I have found to work best for a live performance. If you are doing recording work, there will no doubt be times you will want to change your bass pattern or chord to suit your song perfectly.

NSR, your reply about the bass pitch point clears up an annoying problem with the disappearing bass notes. I will give that a try rather than crank up the volume of the bass part. Another tweak to utilize! It is a fact - something can be learned from this forum every day. What a great site!! Thanks for the tip.

[This message has been edited by Bud Whipple (edited 06-25-2002).]

you need to change the pitch point in the composer depending on the key the pattern will be played in. It is also necessary to get the right sound out of many style conversions.

Not being a piano player I use the composer for everything, and use all the tweaks until it sounds right.

Alec,

I disagree. Other than playing in the key of "F", the keyboard is designed well for the bass to fall in the proper place, other than my personal preference of preferring it hit the lower F instead of the octave above. As I have said, using electric bass is resonant enough for the higher bass F to come through. I stand by this statement PROVIDING a bass pattern hasn't been composed in a wild and all over the keyboard way and extending beyond a reasonable reach for a bass. Also, I am assuming one composes in the key of "C". If you want to play in another key, do so or use the transpose button. Once I compose a pattern, I have yet to have to change the pitch point later, depending on the key I play in. I can play in any key and the bass will respond in the proper place. I suppose if someone composed a bass track higher than the normal bass range, you can run into a problem that would definitely require going in and changing the pitch point. Otherwise, I have not had a reason to do this.

you've just proved it by saying it needs changing in F!

also depends on which voice you want to use.

Alec,

You're fun! I wondered how long it would take for you to respond. (Laughing, as I write) Quick, I might add. You're reaching, my friend! It is purely a choice on ONE instance of whether the "F" is played an octave up or down. This has no baring on playing in any key other than the key of "F". If it helps, I promise not to change the pitch point in the future - just for you. You mention "voice" - Do you mean vocally? :-) Sorry, I couldn't resist. (LOL) I would use the symbols listed on the forum, if I knew how.

NSR, if you want to use symbols like this
...or (very apt!) then click HERE , and follow the "What to type" commands. Or click on the Smiles Legend at the bottom were you make your reply...



J5

Hi J5,

I have tried this - It doesn't work. What is the problem? I don't have "Disable Smilies in This Post" checked. ? I have done exactly what was said and it doesn't work. A new symbol ~.~

well, you do things your way, and I'll continue doing them mine

I'm working on a song where I had to adjust the pitch point in every track of every variation of the (multiple) composers to get the backing where I wanted it. This was a vocal arrangement, so it was critical the voice samples did not go too far out of range when changing to all of the various chords in the song. Pitch point was the perfect solution to the problem.

I have officially named you, Pitch Point Alec. What do they say, "Different strokes for different folks" - something like that. Anyway, our posts are all in fun and we all play differently. Speaking of, I think you are too modest, Alec in regards to your playing ability. You do such advanced things on the keyboard, I think you are holding out on us. Why won't these damn smilies work?

I see that the smilies work now. Gee, ain't I having fun!

like I said I'm not a piano player, so create the specific backing for each song in the composer. Object is to play left hand with a result that sounds like a good quality midi file, ie a backing constantly changing in subtle ways complementing each part of the melody (and even each part of a phrase) so that the mechanical repetition of backing is not so easily recognisable during the course of a song.

different strokes for different folks

Exactly - That is why I spend a lot of time in COMPOSER - getting those special little nuances in 16 measures that make an arrangement believable.