....playing an arranger keyboard....especially on a paying gig? I didn't want to drag Bernie's post 'southward' so I started a new thread. Posts constantly pop up by people aggressively defending using an arranger on stage and/or playing over midi files. There is always a great emphasis on the extent to which they will go to make sure the audience knows that they're 'playing' and not just doing a karaoke act. The question is, WHY? The only thing I can think of is that somehow, way down deep in the subconscious, they are concerned about maybe not being respected as legitimate musicians. The reality is, WHO CARES? Usually only the musician themselves. What is important is the skill you bring to the performance, instrument be damned. Nobody gives a crap what Marco Parisi is playing; they're too busy watching him play.

Here's the thing; there's no stigma attached to the guys that can play, just the guys that suck. WHAT they're playing is an afterthought (in both cases). My own feeling is that if you're using an arranger kb on a professional level, you should be able to play at least one regular instrument (piano, organ, guitar, sax....doesn't matter). I'd give a pass to someone who was an exceptionally strong vocalist. But then, why fake it with a keyboard when you'd probably sound much better with backing tracks (midi or audio). Does having the keyboard make it easier to book gigs? Is it all about image. Of the videos I've seen of Nursing Home gigs, with all due respect, most would sound pretty much the same whether it was done with a PA80 or a PA4x, or a PSR3000 or a Genos. When those strings and horns and drums all start playing simultaneously, and the audience thinks it's all coming from you, you aren't playing in a Nursing home, you're playing in a Mental Retardation facility.

I'm not making any judgements here or even trying to make a point, but $5K is a lot of money to pay for something that has pretty much the same functionality (GIG WISE) as a good MP3/MIDI player. Just musing.

chas

I guess some artists are more comfortable singing while playing, and an arranger is more suitable for certain types of music.
Sometimes it's easier to do a thing when you have a proper distraction.

One of the most succesfull arranger players in my area, was a great singer and a top knotch entertainer. But just not a keyboard player. However, he used midi midifiles and mimmicked playing the keys. Don't know if he is still active tough. Despite not knowing how to play, he turned every party into a huge success, isn't that more important then how good one plays an instrument? the end result and the crowds being happy?

Chas

Thank you for the deference to my thread, That shows class.

Your thread may have merit, and I guess I am trying to justify the thousands of dollars and countless hours to set myself apart from ones that have not done so. Perhaps I am the only one who cares, but then, after my audience, I still have to please myself. I am not happy with mediocrity, so I simply do the best I can on a daily basis. I will never be a headliner, but who cares. I am as happy as as a pig doing what I am doing, and that accounts for something.

Being able to extend songs depending on audience reaction is a great reason to use an arranger keyboard versus MIDI or MP3 files that are never gonna change.

I am glad you said that, Nigel, as I have a tendency to go whole hog, one way or the other. I have to be sure and keep a suitable mix of old and new; styles and midi. Of coarse, you can use markers, which DNJ mentioned, but they still are of predetermined length.
Thanks

Bachus
I, of coarse, agree, but one has to use his own particular talents and mine is not that of a non playing entertainer. Furthermore, my joy comes from sharing my music with people who enjoy the same. I do admire entertainers, but "To thy own self be true". However, as it pertains to midifiles, yes.

Thanks

True, but is that capability alone enough to justify the huge difference in equipment costs, especially since that requirement is very infrequent. Plus, the midi/mp3 backing is probably going to sound better and always be error-free. I think it's more than that and I think Bernie comes closer to the real reason people choose an arranger over other cheaper (and possibly better) forms of musical backing.

Fact! Does anyone dispute the fact that a popular DJ will command considerably more money than the average OMB arranger player. Also, DJ'ing provides more opportunities to land the 'big' gig (weddings, etc.) and his gear probably costs way less than a Genos + hi-end PA which could cost as much as $10k.

Now I'm not advocating for either, I'm just asking why it's so important to have a keyboard in front of you, especially one in which the audience knows (or suspects) that it's not you that's playing all that complex music. In fact, the better it sounds, the greater the suspicion. Bachus post is insightful; why does the guy feel a need to drag along a keyboard he doesn't/can't play and mimic playing? Is it necessary for his act? Would his audiences love him less if he left the keyboard at home? Because of the large amount of money involved, I'm just curious, is all.

chas

If you can entertain the public, I’m not sure folks care what you use. Can you juggle? Dance? Tell jokes? As long as it’s entertainment...also juggling etc a lot cheaper than any form of musical backing. 😊

For me, I enjoy arrangers. If I didn’t play in public, I would be playing just for my own enjoyment...just so happens, when I was gigging, I could pay for my toys.

There is one thing I’ve found in favor of arrangers...they sound great at least to the folks I play for. And, folks do seem to enjoy watching me try to look like a keyboard player. 😊

Mp3 and Midi aside, audience members here a trumpet, and know I am not playing a trumpet. They hear Vibes, but no Vibes in sight. They hear a full orchestra or country combo and see only me and my arranger. It's a tool to compliment your talent and people do appreciate the command you have over your instrument.
E

I see the points on both sides, to a degree, but when I see a DJ, I think what advantages he may have.
1. He probably has most any tune and knows how to keep things moving.
2. More than likely, he can talk it up and provide all kinds of scratch noises and effects.
He is good as an entertainer that can provide music for any occasion.

OOH
Maybe it is wishful thinking, but I think people appreciates the talent it takes to play an instrument in a creative sense. I think it takes more talent than putting on a disk and dancing around, at least I would. I know, that is a bit sarcastic.

Most of the time I play guitar lead sounds, or piano. Audiences can relate to my being able to produce those sounds on a keyboard. Most of them are used to seeing guitar players with at least drum and bass tracks.
I will occasionally play a song from youtube if the situation merits, but I make sure to stand up so they know I'm not representing that I'm playing it.
As far as justifying arrangers; I don't feel a need to do that; they have kept me from having to get a "real job" for many years.

"The ground beneath you is shifting, and either you get sucked in by holding on to old ways,
or you take a giant step forward by taking some risks and seeing what happens."

-Bonnie Hammer

If the ground shifts from under me, and they quit asking me to play music, I'll fish more.

For me, I am quite comfortable playing a guitar in front of an audience and singing through a quality mic and sound system, something I did regularly when I was much younger.

However, the arranger keyboard offered me far more versatility than I could have ever dreamed of with a guitar. It allows me to confidently perform country, big band, jazz, rock, and even some classical music and smoothly transition from one song to the next, leaving minimal dead time between songs and keeping the dance floors packed. The styles provided me with high quality, professional sounds that made it easy to provide my audiences with songs they were familiar with, and also those they requested from time to time. If I was familiar with the requested song, it only took a couple seconds to call up a suitable style, complete with a good intro, and a variety of right hand instruments that sounded very realistic. Granted, the audiences were aware I was not playing a guitar, sax, fiddle, etc..., but in reality, they didn't really care - they were just having fun and enjoying the musical entertainment that I, and my arranger keyboard, provided at the time.

Now, would they have enjoyed it just as much if I were doing Karaoke and DJing? I don't think so. But this just my assessment of the audiences at the time. And, as stated above by our illustrious host, the arranger allows me the ability to either cut a song short when I see the audience is not responding the way I wish, or extend it if they are late getting on the dance floor. Can't do that with an midi file or MP3. This is the kind of flexibility that an arranger offers in so many ways and I, for one, have utilized this ability hundreds of time.

OK Chas, we've show you ours, now show us yours. Why do YOU play an arranger keyboard?

All the best,

Gary

But will you fish from a dinghy or an ocean liner? ...and will those eating your catch give a damn?

chas

Exactly,......let's face it we've all been around playing for a long time yes it's hard to let go and pass the torch but eventually it will happen to all of us one way or another,.......remember the good times and be happy to wake up in the morning.

I will fish from my bass boat, 19-foot with 150 hp engine. If it were new, it would cost about $40,000. I bought it used six years ago, for $10,000.; it's a '99 model. Everything works great, so no need to update. Just like arrangers!
New boats might have more sophisticated fish finders, get a little better gas mileage, and be a trifle shinier. They might go a little faster, but 50 mph is fast enough for me and I seldom go that fast. To me a new boat is not worth the money and won't catch more fish! And all those areas can be addressed, much like arrangers.

Well first of all, I don't play an arranger keyboard; I play WITH arranger keyboards. I have had quite a few arrangers starting with the Roland G800, but I have never played one on a gig. I FREELY ADMIT that I have never thought of them in the same way as my other keyboards, be they synths, pianos, organs, clavs, or Rhodes. The seperation/dividing line for me was always the auto-accompaniment feature. The other reason I never used one on a gig is that it would have been heresy in the venues I played in. Not only would I have been the laughing stock of the other musicians but the (mostly jazz) audiences we played to wouldn't have accepted it either. Now the reason I have had so many is that I'm a geek by nature, training, and education, and I always thought Arrangers were great for stimulating fresh ideas about new ways to approach a song. I also knew that they would be a really handy tool for songwriters as a musical scratchpad. I just never saw them as producing an 'END PRODUCT'. Despite all the advances in arranger technology, I STILL feel that way. I don't think any arranger will ever create an arrangement EXACTLY as you would want it, or would have done it 'manually'.

One thing to keep in mind; whatever I think about arrangers has NOTHING to do with the business end of music, as I can understand the potential financial benefits of using one in a OMB situation that is substituting for a real band (or not having to put up with psycho drummers or constantly tuning guitar players - geez, get a damn guitar that stays in tune for more than 1 song). For the record though, I haven't touched any of my arrangers for at least 6 months (and I play every day), the exception being my BK7m which I use as a drum machine (yeah, I know, that's 'auto-accompaniment too), and the reason is BOREDOM. I've played organ for 50 years and I still get the same kick out of it that I did the first time I sat down to a B3. For ME, THAT'S the difference. One is me, the other is someone else. Not defending or justifying; just explaining (and trying to answer Gary's question). I could go on but now I'm starting to bore myself .

chas

Chas, maybe you just own the wrong arranger keyboards

Or you are stuck on the stigma of arranger keyboards

Fact is the arranger keyboard is a tool with different features for different types of players..

My "instrument" choice is the Roland G70 for many reasons... I will try to explain why.

First the quality of the sounds equal the dedicated instruments you mentioned or own..
The piano is as good as they get,,, I have decent Rhodes . . and a decent drawbar organ.. Thus the G70 replacing all those instruments..

I do not rely on "styles", yet the G70 is perfect for my playing interest..

I can split and layer my sounds as I want... and easily saved..

I have what many consider the best key feel.. and 76 notes to play on..

What ever I would need a "workstation" for... I can use the G70 .. primarily the sequencer and effects..

I can mute enough of my styles to give me a better foundation for a project..

The G70 makes a great drum machine..

A very nice mic input with effects and harmonizer .. if and when I want one..

All from one instrument.... this is why I like and use arrangers... not for auto play.. but all my needs..

Yes I do like and use SMF play... when I want... actually prefer SMF over style.. But I don't have to rely on it..


I have a radio in my car, but
I don't have to listen to "rap".... I can listen to oldies instead... You get my point..

Just because they are called arrangers doesn't mean you can't use them as go to instruments..

Very well said Fran.
I am not sure why people feel the need to defend playing an arranger.
I only had once someone come up and say: So, you are only pushing buttons.
Didn't bother me. Some ignorant person. I asked if they would like to sit down and show me how to push just buttons.
That took care of that.
Most of the time people come up to me and say: Wow I did not know that you can do all that with just a KB
Anyways. I enjoy the hell out of playing an arranger and couldn't care less what others think.
My audience and I are having a great time. That's all it matters

Eric

Fran, I agree with most (or all) of your points and admire your dedication to your instrument of choice; AS I AM TO MINE. But with all due respect, you missed the point of my post; in fact, you pretty much proved my point (about the 'defensive' thing and all). With the "very well said, Fran" comment, apparently so did Eric. I respect your choice of instrument; too bad you can't respect mine. My instrument is more suitable to the type of gigs I play(ed) just as I'm sure the G70 and SMF's is more suited to the type of gigs you play. That doesn't mean I 'hate' arrangers; how could I, having owned so many of them (and still do). My question was, why are people so defensive about playing arrangers? Saying "I play arranger but I don't use styles" IS defensive. Praising it's feature set (sequencer/midifile player/Vocal harmonizer, etc.) is fine but does not answer the question of why some (but not all) seem to be almost embarrassed to embrace this type of instrument (such as emphasizing how they NEVER, EVER use it's most prominent feature...auto-accompaniment). The fact is, if you don't need 'style play', then you probably don't need an arranger keyboard, as most of the other features can be had on a much less expensive workstation.

But in any case, this post was not about WHY you use an arranger (as I said before, WHO CARES?), but why you feel the need to defend that choice at every turn.

BTW Fran, HOW 'BOUT THEM EAGLES'.

chas

Very true, BUT, anytime I see a soloist (other than a OMB) or a combo/band with a keyboard player - KORG, YAMAHA, ROLAND, NORD, whatever, I always try to check it out, and I don't EVER remember seeing an arranger kb in a setting like that, whether it be jazz, pop, rock, you name it ... ESPECIALLY if the venue is one where the players are expected to be 'top shelf' ...

PS: I thoroughly enjoy playing my AKB and make no apologies for it ... after all, it really doesn't do anything unless I tell it to ...

Last Saturday playing in a restaurant lounge, I had a full dance floor, going from one 50'S - 60's rock song to another ... someone asked if I had a certain song "IN THERE"... at that point I killed everything but the drums and bass and raised my arms in the air and said "this thing will keep playing the same thing, unless I do something with it" ... my point was made ...

Hi Chas,
I don't think I missed your point, especially if your read the second half of my post. I might not have expressed myself adequately?
You know you think one way and write down another way LOL.
Really don't care what people think.
Even if I played a Kazoo
I love arrangers, love B3's, love Pianos, love Guitars, love Music ....
My personal impression is that some folks project their feelings onto others and the audience, that playing an arranger is not in the same league as playing other instruments and/or that they are not as great of musicians.
That seems to come through reading those defensive arrangers discussions.
Most people really don't care. (except on this forum)
My experience in life is, that people become defensive when they feel threatened: Physically or Psychologically (EGO and image of themselves)
Eric

Eric, yep you got it. That was exactly the kind of EXPLANATION I was looking for from the beginning. Also, I think you hit the nail on the head. Another reason is that criticism by other musicians may have helped cultivate this defensive attitude. I hope I have not contributed to this but many here think I'm an arranger hater. That's hard for me to understand given the number of arrangers I have owned over the years. I just chose not to use them for gigging; or better stated, I prefer the organ trio/quartet format for professional gigs. Joey Defrancesco, Jimmy Smith, Groove Holmes, Jack McDuff.....they're all my heroes, they're all strict organ players (although Joey plays a mean trumpet), and they're all known and respected world wide in the jazz world. I cannot think of a single STRICT arranger player that rises to that level of recognition and respect. In other words, there are world famous trumpet players, violinist, cellist, pianist, even (dare I say) accordionist. I don't know of any arranger players of that stature (the factory demonstrators are known to arranger aficionados but to few others). This HAS to say something about the instrument and it's rank in world of music. I think most musicians think of it more as a musical TOOL than a musical instrument. But in the end, it's always a personal opinion and a matter of what an individual wants. Cheers.

chas

I’m a little late to the party but my 2 cents anyway:

We have been staying this winter in a place called The Villages. There are 3 town squares where dance music is played 7 nights per week with a different band playing Some bands rotate at which town squares they play at. For the most part it’s all bands playing, but once a week you’ll see a DJ at one of the town squares. Then there are restaurants that seem to have singers working with backing tracks. To date I’ve seen one guy using a Korg Pa3x, but while we were at the restaurant I never saw him touch the Pa3x, he was actually working with backing tracks and singing using some type of DJ rig I did not recognize. There’s another restaurant and we hope to get there some Friday night since the one promo photo I saw shows the guy playing a Tyros not sure which model.

Right now the most enjoyment I’m getting with music is playing a 1 hour weekly piano solo gig in the lobby of an upscale medical center that specializes in cancer treatment. It’s great they have a $695 Yamaha Portable Grand all I do is show up and start playing do my hour and leave. When I took the gig I expected it to be low key wallpaper music and on the somber side because of the nature of the facility. It’s not one of those gigs you expect a lot of audience reaction but have to say have had some very positive response. Only problem as we know these type gigs are few and far between at least for me.

Ed made a good point with what he wrote:

and ACCORDION !!!



Another organist on his first musical instrument ...

Curse you, Tony Mads.



chas

We bought a 10 year old Lund fishing boat last summer. There actually are a great number of prime boating lakes close to where we live in western MN.

It's really about reaching the audience. Whatever your axe is, either you connect or not. Maybe I'm a softy, but some of these styles in the arranger just blow me away, emotionally. I try my best to find the ones out there that really are 'moved' like me, and stay connected to them to really enjoy the show. Some leave, that's ok. But the majority sure enjoy it and that tells me the arranger is a successful musical tool.

There are some times (for instance, my last of 13 jobs last week) that it becomes difficult to tell the 'story'. I believe as entertainers, we control the outcome of the room by being an excellent player with excellent arrangements. Whatever the means are to get there, really doesn't matter, imo.

The "defense" is in response to "offense"...the subtle and sometimes not so subtle inference that an arranger user is less of a musician than others. I see this here often, commonly done to feed egos or drive a wedge between those of different skill levels..unnecessary..

As to why it is used, as has been said is simply the right tool for the job.

Yes, what he said!

One of the reason I avoid music forums of my own language is that arrangers are usually bullied there and there’s no really a discussion going on.

I was growing up with arrangers mostly because entry-level keyboards are usually arrangers. Still, when a time to make money came, I started to play pianos at restaurants and didn’t really consider playing an arranger in public. Well, of course I thought about it, but never got around to do so. Well, I actually played Yamaha MM6 in a coffeehouse, which has an arranger feature, but I also played a piano there as well. I had some need to prove to myself that I’m accepted as a player, not a user. But if I could sing as most of SZ members do, that’d be another story and I guess an arranger would be my choice.

Now I’m shifting to guitars, I guess, and tend to play my PSR more as a workstation, not an arranger. I still expect that it’s just a phase, but it has been lasting for a few years by now.
I thought that Genos would be so seducing that I would be back into arrangers’ world again, but so far the more I learn about it the less I expect it to happen.

I do feel a need to have an arranger at home because sometimes I still may want to play with rhythms, besides it’s like a musical encyclopedia; it gives quite a picture about different styles and how to work with them.

I know that arrangers keep getting better; in the same time I feel less need to “have it all”, I mean, all the sounds and backings; I fear that I’m getting tired of all this variety and loosing the focus and thinking a lot about getting a keyboard even simpler than I have now.

I have read through all the posts on this topic I keep coming up with the same feeling: I have played with midi and audio backing and I do not enjoy it – for me it’s no fun.

When I was supporting a home and four children and a wife my band played what people wanted to hear. I did it to the point of hating what I was doing. As I was backing my instruments what came to me is that I just finished playing four hours of music; most of which was noise.

Please, please, no reflection on what others love or play; this is just about me. So the question is not what am useing to make music, but do I love what I am doing when I create music. I got excited when I saw Dave’s set up – small amp, wheels and IPad (Midi); I started putting a midi set up together. I played one midi file and stopped dead.
I have heard some great players who played with background; they were entertaining – they were good. But for me.
How boring if we all thought the same and played the same keyboard.

John C.

I agree with Sparky and DonM.

Gary

Thats an EASY fix Sparky ....IT'S ALL ABOUT PLAYING MUSIC BUT IF YOU DONT "SHOW US WHAT YOU GOT" SO WE CAN LISTEN OR SEE TO WHAT YOUR SAYING it's all that is needed to solve whatever it is,...all that talk, ego, chest pushing, whats better, who's better, purists, how great it is, styles, backing tracks, midi file players, etc, etc, etc, whatever it may be, ....bottom line,....IF SOMEONE DOESN'T SHOW US WHAT SOMEONE IS TALKING ABOUT IN A DEMO OF SOME KIND OF AUDIO OR VIDEO SO IT CAN BE SEEN OR HEARD IT MEANS A HILL OF BEANS...

Thank you I'll duck now..

PS but you know I'm right, just sayin'..

Kabinopus I do understand what you wrote. One can get lost in perfecting.

“I know that arrangers keep getting better; in the same time I feel less need to “have it all”, I mean, all the sounds and backings; I fear that I’m getting tired of all this variety and loosing the focus and thinking a lot about getting a keyboard even simpler than I have now.”

John C.

Hi Guys, isn’t it simply a case of, to each his own.
It’s a case of what you enjoy playing, isn’t that what music is all about?
You guys chose music as a career, because you love it, there are far easier careers around that probably would earn you a heap more money with far easier hours involved.

I mentioned on another thread yesterday , about giving my piano to a neighbor, who hasn’t played in 40 plus years, now she’s practicing everyday and loving it. What I didn’t mention was her husband is just as thrilled as she is that she’s playing. He was a drummer for one of the top Australian bands back in the 60’s, gave up the drums a few years back, and more recently took up the ukulele for something to play. It’s a hoot, he loves it. Just about talked all his friends into buying one and gave them lessons. Haha

Just a thought

Hey that ain't the guitarist's fault. It is the nature of the instrument. Only using a Floyd Rose tremelo system with the tuning actually locked down with Allen keys will ensure that. And I just don't like having to use Allen key devices to have to be able to change broken strings.

Yeah, yeah, you guitar players are all alike, blame the poor guitar. If you guys didn't play so LOUD, it would stay in tune.

No, seriously, that 'going out of tune thing', is that why some Rockers smash them at the end of a set? .....or are they just trying to beat the rest of the band to it .

Just teasing, time to give Tony and Fran and Donny and the rest of those durn Accordionists a break .

chas

When I was a very young man, playing a guitar at the honky tonk bars north of Baltimore, I always used Mapes Heavy guitar strings because once they were tuned, they didn't stretch very much. The only downside was they cut the Hell out of your fingers.

Gary