When I was at NAMM 2018 in Anaheim at the Yamaha stand they weren't pushing the Genos at all which surprised me. They still seemed to be mainly focused on the Montage.

Hi Nigel,......I have heard that more then once about genos at Namm on the back burner vs their Flagship synths like Montage..Most pro KB players are more interested in synths its always been like that ..

Thats mostly in the US...

The true reason is that Yamaha USA is heavilly involved in the Montage development ( Phil aka Bad Mister ) while Yamaha europe (Martin Herris) is heavilly involved in the Genos. And while they will not openly admit it, there is quite some competition between the two teams.

The true reason why Arrangers are not popular in the US, is Yamaha US not having an interest to sell the Genos and its predecessors at all.

I think it is crazy that any brands separate workstations from arrangers. Supporting styles is simply an addition of a little more ROM space. There is no reason Yamaha couldn't introduce a Montage that is also an arranger. Then they could sell it to all markets. The first manufacturer that does that will win for sure.

Have to disagree there, arranger keyboards are classed as kids toys in the pro market and any manufacture that added these features would see their pro sales (Of this type of instrument) fall through the floor.
Technically it’s easy, but changing people’s perception is not.
Bill

Korg and Yamaha has done a huge step forward with the modern arrangers, and I have to agree with Nigel.
Some years ago I would disagree, but arranger and workstations (just names) is getting very close related, and now Yamaha names both Tyros and Genos as 'Workstation'.

If the tool is buildt to do as you want it to do, it's 'Pro' enough.

.... "but changing people’s perception is not." Bill say.
Agree, but I think this is about to change for every new model coming.
I predict that future models will melt the features even more, but the high end models will be more fitted for the 'Pro' market.

Originally Posted By Nigel

The first manufacturer that does that will win for sure.

all good points Bill spot on ....the fact that Yamaha is now changing the terminology with "GENOS Workstation" will not change or penetrate the " Arranger keyboard kids toy, home keyboard, wooden organ AURA mentality" with Pro Synth KB players. To them anything automatically created styles, sounds etc, etc, VS creating songs from scratch with a real synth workstation will never be seen in their arsenal....I hope that someday changes for both camps.....

A couple of days ago I was watching a travelogue from a guy traveling in Bangkok. He was at a nightclub and the keyboard player in the reggae band was playing a technics KN 1000...

One of the real goodies from Technics, and the first with 'dynamic accomp'.

Very small showing at NAMM

I was very surprised as well

It a nice unit Genos. It will be a great one when the new update is ready

Soon hopefully

I have reported some issues with it fixes coming soon

Yamaha has all the tools to make the perfect instrument.

Yet as long as their are seperate development teams for the seperate instrument types, such will never happen.



From my point of view... the Korg PA4x is allready a powerfull workstation and a top knotch arranger. Much more workstation then the Genos (or the Montage) So if a company will break with this tradition it will be Korg. Altough i wonder if Korg Italy realises this..


from a workstation point of view, i would say that something like the ketron launchpads would be welcomed much much more then the traditional arranger. From an arranger point of view, we are ready to accept all the high end workstation features.

Most arranger players steer clear of Workstations like the plague, and can’t see the point of them, let alone have the features added to arrangers, (Didn’t you get thrown off the PSR Forum for suggesting this very thing) and it will take a long time to change this. (Yamaha has started with the Genos in a way that most arranger players haven’t noticed, but you’re talking at least 2 generations before they will be able to complete the transition to an all in one)
Bill

When it comes to truly understanding keyboards I’m a rookie. Can someone give a simple explanation of what is missing on an arranger like the Genos, that keeps it from being a workstation?

Tx

it does not have as deeply detailed sequencer or a fully featured sampler or detailed sound editing features as a true workstation would have .

you would probably need additional hardware such as a computer to create really personalised tracks from scratch on a Geno or typical Yamaha arranger.

that's the main difference where as for example the Korg PA4x has pretty much all those features covered which make it a true arranger /workstation hybrid.

Using Korg as an example, here is there TOTL Arranger http://www.korg.com/uk/products/synthesizers/pa4x/ and here is there TOTL Workstation http://www.korg.com/uk/products/synthesizers/kronos2/ if you compare them you will find significant differences.
I hope the above and the post by Spalding helps you to understand the differences better, however feel free to ask any questions if you are still confused about something.
Bill

but how many arranger players need or even ever use "in depth" synth workstation features, editing, etc, etc,..? why pay for all that if your never ever going to use those features or easily do it on your DAW programs?

DITTO!

But the reverse is also true. Since the hardware costs are probably comparable, the increased cost of the Arranger keyboard must be attributed to software (ie. style development) development. So why pay for (expensive) auto-accompaniment features that most dedicated workstation users are "never ever" going to use?

Another never-ending debate? I think yes.

chas

The never ending " different strokes for ..."

Yamaha has given up the two distinct departments and formed a single department responsible for synthesizers and arrangers together, so maybe this will lead to future instruments that might combine more of both...

What Abacus says, is mostly true, but I‘ve seen exceptions in synth forums regarding the Tyros: quite a number of band keyboardists were missing some acoustic instruments (SA2 and the like) the Tyros had, but Motif and Montage don‘t. Soundwise, the synths should really incorporate more of the sounds of the top arrangers. Regarding styles, Abacus is totally right, they are often despised by band keyboardists.

I found this interesting

https://youtu.be/UGANVTsDKH4

I’ve just ordered montage 7 to go with my genos can’t wait for it to arrive 😃

Nice and informative find. Tnx.
More than 3 years has gone by since this video, and PA4X and Genos made the 'crossover' even closer.

isnt he demoing casios now?

I think Gary explained this in depth some time ago. To me the term “Workstation” is simply a keyboard which allows tracking of various sounds and voices to create music or whatever. There really isn’t much difference anymore, whether it’s an arranger or a synth workstation. They both allow the musician...at whatever level their at, to create music.

Of course...this is my humble opinion...

jingleman

A synthesizer usually has voices which are composed of 4 to 8 single elements. A brass voice for example can be put together flexibly by combining 2 solo trumpet samples, trombone, section etc. Then, 16 of such voices with 4-8 elements each can be combined to a 16-part performance (or combination, different terminologies). In total adding up to 64-128 elements per performance at least theoretically.
You will never find this architecture in an arranger.

I own the korg pa1x and pa4x . I am probably a good example of the kind of musician that will use both workstation and arranger features to the fullest . I just finished a track for my church choir using my arranger as a true workstation. They will use this next week because the band that was supposed to play has let them down . And I will use the same instrument in rehearsals with my gospel group to flesh out songs that we are learning for a concert in a few weeks . And finally I will use the same instrument in preparation for Easter with my works choir.

Why would I buy two separate instruments when one covers that work effortlessly ???

This all boils down the using of automated styles for so called "home players" vs "pro KB players" that create music from scratch, multitracking a song from the bottom up, or creating custom sounds to play,...the mere thought of using AUTOMATED STYLES or AUTOMATED ANYTHING simply put it in the amateur category for many pro KB players let's face it, same as when you mention using a SMF etc, on an arranger forum most shreek and boast "I NEVER use Midi files" bla bla bla,........just ask them or try talking about an arranger KB on a pro synth workstation forum the silence is deafening......the two camps will always remain.
.....take care

I remember Marco Parisi playing some pretty interesting “Workstation” sounding music on The Korg PA600. As more synth sounds and arpeggiations work there way into “Arranger” market, the lines may continue to blur.

Maybe they should change the name to “Composer” Workstation!

a' you can not eddit nor create new sounds for an your arranger on a DAW. You can only edit midi and audio... and trasfering up and down to the DAW is not really convenient

b' The biggest point of having a deep sound edditing engine is that it allows those users that want and will use it to create new sounds, and share them freely with the community. Making it a better place for everyone. So indirectly everyone bennefits from having those workstation features on an arranger.


On top of that there is those features that don´t have to do anything with edditing. For example having 8 or more sounds layered and split over the keyboard, and the freedom to do so as you wish, combined with the sliders this is a very powerfull feature.. which should which should be benneficial to all arranger players.

And then there is the advanced arp features )and user arps of the workstations, which also would be huge combined with an arranger.

Other features, like Montage´s integration with the prementioned DAW-Cubase would also be a huge thing for many, espescially since we are dependant on the DAW for edditing.


Its best to ask this question to people that own both a traditional workstation and an arranger, and ask them what features from the workstation would be welcome on the arranger.

Can anyone tell me which of the prementioned typical Workstation features would not fit in an Arranger just as well?

Also where he says, if you want high quallity realistic sounding keyboard sounds, you need a workstation, makes me a little sad.

This video is a few years old (2014).
PA4X and Genos make the gap between these 'workstations' far less, does'nt it?
Future models will melt even closer together. Exciting.

Hey you must realize it won't cost them or you anything extra. The separation of arranger and workstation markets is totally fake. There is no reason they can't provide the same features on both. If anyone doesnt't require the features then simply don't press that button. If you do then press it. It costs them nothing to make it available.

Perhaps the separation sells more keyboards?

Also it appeared to me, just looking at keyboard sites, that there are weighted keys(and heavier keyboards) in the synth/workstation group.

Take the styles buttons/names off the panel and Arranger players won’t buy them, leave them on and pro players won’t buy them. (Manufactures are stuck between a rock and a hard place)
Bill

This is the truth and nothing but the truth...



I am quite sure that for many this holds true, but many is not even most...

However, i am also convinced that when you add the arranger features in a different form ( like the ketron launchpad feature). That almost every workstation player would love it... and many arranger players looking for true workstation features would also appreciate it..

I understand that Nigel....its purly a marketing trick to make more profits ...more choices = more $$$$$$ just like salad dressing & "LIGHT" dressing.......Marlboro cigarettes and Marlboro "lights" if you give people choices more will buy from different camps its a great strategy that works....sure they can put it as an all in one KB but MONEY is what they are all after first and foremost.

My take is that very few combined-function/swiss-army-knife devices (of ANY sort) perform as well as a separately developed dedicated device performing the same function. Sure, you can put a hammer head or saw on the end of a screwdriver but nobody would buy it, simply because it is simply not as good as it's single-function counterpart.

Arrangers (and Workstations) will continue to evolve because developers are constantly trying to create the 'perfect' arranger (or workstation). If arranger-functions were merely a 'feature' on some 'Master do-it-all keyboard', it probably wouldn't get the same level of R&D. Let's face it; Arranger players want the ultimate ARRANGER, and Workstation players want the ultimate WORKSTATION, and never the twain shall meet. Also, what Donny said; it's probably way more profitable to keep them seperate. Trust me, the corporations know what they're doing (marketing wise). JMO, though.

chas

I think so, too. Nigel is right that it wouldn't cost much to include everything, but the problem starts with how the instrument "communicates" with the user. How buttons are labelled and arranged etc.
A voice category called "sweet voices" like in the PSR series sounds cheesy to any synth user. Controllers designed for 16-part performances required by synth users would irritate arranger users. And so on.

How about one of you folks providing us with YOUR definition of a Pro Player.

My definition is simple, someone that plays for a fee. Therefore, I guess I was considered a pro player because it's what I did for a living for more than 30 years. It was my sole source of income for more than 20 years and the only thing that changed during the past decade is that I had to take my retirement, something I didn't want to do, but it was required by law when I hit age 70-1/2. When I was a freelance outdoor writer, I was considered a professional writer/journalist. It was what I did for a living, often in conjunction with playing music and being a Pro entertainer.

I know a large number of pro players, all of which own and exclusively use an arranger keyboard. What's wrong with this picture?

Gary

The styles and voice buttons are gone for the most part on the Genos. There’s more sliders and knobs in their place.

I wonder how far the Genos is from being a “workstation” ?

Nothing wrong with that I guess.

I would say a 'Pro Player' is someone who do this the as the work for living, main dayly income. But also have to got good talent and skills for what she/he is doing as well as the talent to satisfy the public.

I guess we can twist this 'Pro' definition a quite lot, but how many of the 'Pro' autocomp arranger players can step into a symphony orchestra and participatie in the same way or level as those who have passed their entrance examination, reading notes and playing what the conductor decides to play?
I have a suspicion that the number 'Pro' drops drastically with such criteria.

When we played gigs, we called ourselves "happy amateurs" who did the best as we could to entertain the guests, whether it was Saturday dance or at weddings.
Names or titles does not matter, if your customers are happy and you are happy with your equipment and what you're doing, I think you're 'Pro' as good as any.

Yamaha names Tyros and Genos 'Workstations', so who is there to tell designers and developers at Yamaha that they is wrong?
I don't think I have the skills to argue, but I still name my Genos an autocomp arranger.

Obviously very far, if you refer to synth workstations:

In the specs I see: "Parts: left / right 1, right 2, right 3"

As I said, in a synth workstation you have 16 parts you can all use live and assign to any range on the keyboard. Having only one part for the left half of the keyboard is a no go for many.

Then I don't know whether you can access several elements within a voice and change them - I guess you can't, at least not onboard.

Gary, with all due respect, that is the weakest definition of a professional I've ever heard. To me, a 'professional' is defined by a combination of TRAINING, COMPETENCE, AND EXPERIENCE. If Quincy Jones (or any top producer) requests you for a session, you are a professional. If you play in a major symphony orchestra or Broadway production, or touring with a MAJOR music act, or teaching music (exclusively) at the high school level or above, or recognized by your peers as such, you are a professional. A back-room abortionist can practice his/her 'craft' for 30 years (and make a good living at it) but that doesn't make them a doctor. There IS such a thing as a semi-professional; 'semi' because they're missing one or more of the key components that signifies a true professional. Most true professionals also belong to multiple professional music organizations and most have certifications of some kind to attest to their level of professionalism. Aviation is a good example. Everyone even remotely associated with aviation knows what a 'professional pilot' is and nobody is going to consider you a 'professional' just because you've got 30 years flying a Piper Cub (at 2000ft in fair weather).

I say all this because I think it's disingenuous to say that just because someone is paid a fee for something, that makes them a professional. He MIGHT be a professional but he is not automatically one. The two guys I play with (jam with, actually) are true professionals while I, on the other hand, am a true amateur. Because we're all retired and do it for fun, they tolerate me, but when they were working 'pro's', they probably wouldn't have given me the time of day. Now, I'm in a position to learn from the best and I'm enjoying it immensely.

Hey, I only responded to this post because;
1. You asked.
2. I don't think the word 'Pro' or 'Professional' should be thrown around lightly.

Glad you asked, though. I like meaningful dialog.

chas

In other words even bad players that get paid are pros!... Something is wrong..

No, not everyone that gets payed qualifies as a professional. a professional gets payed for doing something he is good at.

My dad, music reading mandolin player professionally taught, always called himself a "professional amateur"..he could play with anybody but rarely did for money in his day..I like that name..

As to arranger vs workstation, I think first of left hand usage to differentiate. Being an accordion player first, I use the limited left hand triggering functions an arranger has, not full piano style left hand (most) workstation users are. Then the OMB versus sideman utility. Styles vs no styles..Distinct differences designed toward different end users that keep the two separate and required alternate options. Can you imagine one model vehicle from each car company with same options for all?

Of course there is marketing and re-naming..today's SUV / yesterday's station wagon..

You suppose this definition of professional applies to a professional ‘lady of the night’? Some call themselves professional.

😉

Sorry, couldn’t pass it up.

Look up the definition of professional in the dictionary.

Chas, that's the best you could come up with? How about:

A professional is a member of a profession or any person who earns their living from a specified professional activity. The term also describes the standards of education and training that prepare members of the profession with the particular knowledge and skills necessary to perform their specific role within that profession. In addition, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct, enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations.[1] Professional standards of practice and ethics for a particular field are typically agreed upon and maintained through widely recognized professional associations, such as the IEEE.[2] Some definitions of "professional" limit this term to those professions that serve some important aspect of public interest [3] and the general good of society.[4][5]

In some cultures, the term is used as shorthand to describe a particular social stratum of well-educated workers who enjoy considerable work autonomy and who are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work. (From Wikipedia)

How about this one:


[pruh-fesh-uh-nl]

adjective
1.
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain:
a professional builder.
2.
of, relating to, or connected with a profession :
professional studies.
3.
appropriate to a profession :
professional objectivity.
4.
engaged in one of the learned professions :
A lawyer is a professional person.
5.
following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime:
a professional golfer.
6.
making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”.
7.
undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain:
professional baseball.
noun
10.
a person who belongs to one of the professions, especially one of the learned professions.
11.
a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs:
a golf professional.
12.
an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro.
13.
a person who is expert at his or her work:
You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional.

(From Dictionary.com)

Now, I as I said earlier, I know a lot of pro players, three of which were Peabody trained, two that have big bands and write their own scores, and several that could play with any symphony and play as directed without having second thoughts. I considered Joe Ayala a pro player and while he preferred playing a grand piano, his income was generated playing an arranger keyboard. Helmut Lict can play just about any instrument that has keys, and loves playing the grand piano, but he generates the bulk of his income playing an arranger keyboard. Helmut was trained professionally in Berlin, Germany. Jerry Burns, currently retired, is a Peabody trained pianist. He was in the US Army Band, and leaving the Army went to work for the Zim Zemeral Orchestra for three decades playing an arranger keyboard. Jerry is a pro player. The list is endless.

My entire point about professional players, is that they will and do purchase arranger keyboards - and do not look down their noses at arranger keyboards, or arranger keyboard players. None of the pro players that I know, personally, prefer a synth over an arranger, especially when it comes to making a living on stage.

As for me, I'm just a retired, hack entertainer - not a musician. However, everyone considered me a pro entertainer, and I managed to make a few hundred dollars in the business. I had no formal musical training, learned what I know on my own, school of hard knocks! Not everyone in this business that has been successful was a trained musician. Classic example: Irving Berlin. Was he a pro? You betcha! There are lots of Irving Berlins out there - I'm just not among them.

Sorry for the rant,

Gary

I have been playing since I was 5 years old and my first job was when I was 12. I have made my living playing music ever since and I studied privately and with different tutors. I am a full fledged pro player in every respect and I never ever judged a player by the instrument they played. My pet peeve is It's not very pro when talking about someone's keyboard or instrument they are playing. I like a keyboard with built in speakers because I don't have to use monitors when playing on a theater stage or be at the mercy of some knot head that happens to be running a sound system that night. I know my balances are right when I feed a line to the main foh speakers and can turn my speakers up or down so I can hear myself. I also play some jobs in very small rooms and I don't have to bring speakers in to entertain. Some players who have never played or really ever heard an arranger keyboard think they are not pro have no idea what they are talking about. A motl model sometimes is a better tool for the job at hand. That does not mean that it's not "PRO".
Sorry for the rant. This is just my view.

MEL

Well, I was "nobody-trained". I went once to Berlin. Wisconsin, that is. Also Paris, Texas. Played music in both places actually. Knew just enough to get by. Still getting by.

Don
If I looked up Pro in the dictionary your picture should be there.

MEL

Oh Mel, you just say the sweetest things!
Seriously, thank you. Playing music has kept me from having to do a real job for many years.

To have the hobby as work is a real blessing. Far too few is lucky like that.
If entertainment for the people is not concidered as a real job, what is it then?
It's sure enough quite hard work for those who take it seriously. And when take it seriously, you're a real Pro.

Don: Berlin was a stones throw from my recording studio in Appleton. Nice little town. I played a gig at Berlin High School back in the early 70’s

Wow! Talk about deflection. Everything in my post had to do with what constitutes a PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN. I did not mention once (nor do I care) what kind of instrument they choose to use. In fact, I saw very little in your dictionary references that refuted what I said. YOUR point was very clear...if you got paid, you're a professional. I disagreed with that definition, explaining (or trying to) that that singular criteria was not enough to clearly define a 'professional'. As usual, the 'league of arranger-defenders' hastened to change it to 'OMG, he's trying to say professionals don't use Arrangers'. The truth is, MOST professionals DON'T. There are literally tens of thousands of TRUE music professionals out there; because you know TWO that use Arranger keyboards is hardly conclusive proof of whatever it is you're trying to prove. I reiterate, I never brought up the subject of arrangers or whether their use had any bearing on whether someone is a 'professional' or not. It's HOW you play, not WHAT you play, that's important. 'Entertainer' is too broad a field for me to a say if someone is a 'professional' or not, but then, this is a MUSIC forum so I tend to base my judgments on someone's music skills. A lion tamer, a bull rider, an alligator wrestler; they're all entertainers. I guess you could say, if they don't get themselves killed, they're professionals. My whole point was, just because you get paid a fee doesn't NECESSARILY make you a professional. That was my ONLY point. I stand by it.

chas

My definition is simple, someone that plays for a fee.

Generally, this definition is used to differentiate an 'amateur' from a 'professional' for the purpose of competition, such as in a 'pro-am' sports tournament ... it has little if anything to do with the ability of the individual ...
When I was competing in accordion competitions, if you were being paid as an accordion instructor, or were getting payed to play gigs, you could not compete in the ' amateur' categories ... you had to compete in the 'open' categories ... Believe me, there were 'amateurs' with far more talent and ability than a lot of the 'professionals' ...

Of course there are at least two widely recognized meanings of "professional". If you get paid for doing something it technically makes you a professional.
If you are extremely accomplished at doing something, you are recognized as being a pro, or professional, regardless of whether you make your living at it.
That is my ruling. Now play nice or I'll come back to haunt you. Hope not soon though.

I was mistaken. When I was in Berlin, it was in my capacity as advertising manager for Murphy Oil Corporation. We were marketing at the time under the Spur brand. I would travel around the country helping set up sales promotion programs in every state from Florida to Minnesota.
The place I was thinking about where I played was in West Allis, near Milwaukee, at the state fair. That was in about 1969 or 70. I don't even remember many of the names of the young ladies I encountered along the way back then. However the one in Milwaukee was Jeanine Jueguere. She was special. . . She thought I had a cute southern accent.
DNJ, I have pix of her.

Chas, though I like your definition much better myself, I'd say that Gary is also right about his definition. Years ago, a fellow musician told me, "Now that you played your first paid gig, you are a professional musician." I thought that was a silly statement. I thought he just wanted to make sure that he himself was referred to as a professional musician though he can't really function without an arranger. He said that he played a lot of gigs in Hollywood just because people liked to hear his latest $6,000 electronic instrument(Cordovox) even though he played basically 3 chords on it.
Sounded like he did make a living for a few years playing 3 chords. Well, his full-time "profession" was playing music (whether it involved 3 or 14,000 chords). Full-time profession - professional. You may not like how the word is used but the thing is that language is never static, but always fluid. A case in point; I saw a large painting of a San Francisco bar in a pioneer village. The caption read, "Life in SF back then was gay." The spelling han't changed, but the meanings have changed.

I am all ears when Fran and Gary speak because I've read lots of posts by both and I enjoyed their "amusing" discussions on Bose vs Roland speakers. (I went with the Roland BA330, and read a long article on the internet as to why "professional" musicians don't use Bose speakers) Both Gary and Fran have made a great case and yet I never remember they got personal with each other. My hats off to them. I can't speak for Gary, but I remember Gary saying a few times, "I am not a musician, but an entertainer." Just as Tony gave an example of how the words professional and amateur are used in music competitions or in sports, often meanings can change depending on the context. A text taken out of the context is a pretext. An important concept for me especially when reading the Bible.

Yes, words are important, but I'd say more important are the heart condition. I'd think that a true professional musician doesn't really have to emphasize that he or she/is a professional. The world will say it for him/her. Earlier I called up my friend(the Hollywood 3 chord guy) and told him about this thread. When I told him about Gary, I could feel it; if he was 10 years younger, I bet he would have asked me for Gary's phone number to learn the trade secret.

Don, If you were playing a gig at the Wisconsin State Fair...you are definitely a “Professional”💰

“I
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: September, 29 2005
Posts: 4658
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
My take is that very few combined-function/swiss-army-knife devices (of ANY sort) perform as well as a separately developed dedicated device performing the same function. Sure, you can put a hammer head or saw on the end of a screwdriver but nobody would buy it, simply because it is simply not as good as it's single-function counterpart.

Arrangers (and Workstations) will continue to evolve because developers are constantly trying to create the 'perfect' arranger (or workstation). If arranger-functions were merely a 'feature' on some 'Master do-it-all keyboard', it probably wouldn't get the same level of R&D. Let's face it; Arranger players want the ultimate ARRANGER, and Workstation players want the ultimate WORKSTATION, and never the twain shall meet. Also, what Donny said; it's probably way more profitable to keep them seperate. Trust me, the corporations know what they're doing (marketing wise). JMO, though.

chas “

I respectfully disagree with you Chas. The reality of the situation is that most musicians do not fall at the extreme ends of either group. Most musicians actually fall somewhere in the middle. For example most arranger players use probably 30% -50 percent of the arranger features even though you can do so much more in terms of actual performance related style playing. And most workstation please probably use a similar percentage of their workstation keyboard. Most do not know how to design sounds from scratch and can only tweak or buy professional sounds and import them .

In general all musicians simply want to use the tools available to them to get the job done to a reasonable standard. No one is trying to paint a picaso or craft the most perfect musical production that can be crafted on one keyboard like a record ready production.

. However they do want to be able to make great music relatively easily , authentic in every way when desired, or quick rough and ready when the circumstances demand it

. And most working musicians will take sigle , duo and band or studio work if your skills are up to it.

Why then would they not desire one keyboard that could cover all bases reasonably well?

There is a reason why the Swiss Army knife is a world renowned name in most cultures everywhere but only a handful of people can name a specific type of blade like the Bowie knife or Stanley knife or scalpel let alone how to use them properly .

There is more ignorance amongstkeyboard players about strangers than any other instrument . Just look how hard it has been to define the difference between a “true”” workstation and a “arranger “ workstation.

Spalding, you're more than welcome to disagree, respectfully or not, after all it's just one opinion vs. another. In most of these type 'discussions', the free-thinkers will use logic and observable facts to decide on an issue; the 'herd' will decide based on the popularity of the poster (It's one of those "you can't prove it but you know it's true" kind of things).

I will always call it as I see it and try hard not to be one of those 'check to see who the poster is, read the first three words of the post, immediately start writing a rebuttal ). But hey, that's one of the things that make THIS forum less boring than most of the other forums---it's a cult of personalities, some good (like me ) and some not so good, like ....... uh, you know who you are . For those that don't know me well, that last statement was said in jest....mostly.

BTW, how are things over there? We'll trade you Theresa May for......never mind, don't want to start a riot . BTW, not a big fan of church or religion (as you well know), but I love and admire the work you do with the youth groups in your church. I so much rather see them in a youth choir than hanging out on street corners (I'm ol' school, I guess ).

chas

Hi chas I had actually taken a couple of years hiatus from the children’s choir I work with but I kind of didn’t like to see them falling into disarray so have stepped back in . It’s really hard to find committed people who will sacrifice their time and talents to work with younger children .

But having said that , their isn’t a more rewarding job 😉. I love children and I know in today’s climate (post Kevin spacey ) that’s a dangerous thing in particular for a man to say , but it’s true . And if they don’t have strong positive role models to follow , then this world will show them plenty of negative ones .

Interms of the montage , I get the impression it has not been anywhere near the success as the motif range was . I play with a fair amount of gospel musicians and I have not seen a montage on stage yet but plenty motifs and Roland synths/workstations.

I think Yamaha know they made a mistake with the montage and are trying to recoup their losses ,

AMEN!!!!! As they say in Ireland, "good on you".

chas