#421333 - 05/16/1606:47 AMDo we really need audio drums?
rosetree
Unregistered
On Saturday I made a multi-track recording, inspired by Klaus Doldinger's 80th birthday, it's the beginning of the Tatort TV theme (German criminal series with a long tradition).
It's still a raw version, I played each track manually on my Roland/Cakewalk A-300pro, connected to the Integra-7. Also the drum track.
Take a listen especially to the drums. As I said, it's still a raw version, but don't the drums sound very lively and real already? It's done with the Integra SuperNatural 'Session' drum set. If all arranger styles came with midi drums recorded manually like this, honestly I don't see the point of audio drums (which you can't edit). I think the problem of many midi styles is just that they were created by a computer and not midi-recorded by a human being on a keyboard or on pads.
#421335 - 05/16/1607:10 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
Bernie9
Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5508
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
I think it sounds like a commercial film score as it is. Very nice work. As far as audio drums are concerned, I think Roland and Korg have great tight sounding drums/bass in their styles. My Audya is also very good with live drums and guitar. Personally, it depends what venue I am playing. For in your face dance music, I would take the Audya, but for others, Roland pa4X and Yamaha S970 good as well. Bernie
#421342 - 05/16/1610:15 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: Bernie9]
Bachus
Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Lovely performance.. Great drums...
I never liked how audio drums take away from arrangers, you cant create them yourself, you cant edit them, and they are static...
The way to create high end drums is 3 fold....
- use a real drummer and a midi drumset... - use round robbin for samples... - each drum sound requires its own effects... Espescially for certain kinds of modern music...
(Using quantize kills the dynamic of drums)
There are some very very nice drum vsts, that offer high quallity.. But also the Roland V-drums are incredible and feel so live...
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.
I think audo drums are just a waste of MB in a keyboard. Especially the way Yamaha does it. So backward. You can't do anything with them. We need bigger and better drum samples and a good drums engine where you can mix elements directly in the style you use. I think Yamaha is the worst when it comes to that. I am glad Korg is moving forward with their unlooped drum samples and a great drum mixer.Even little Roland Ea7 did fantastic job with this feature.
BTW , I to like your drum recording. Integra has some really good tools for natural sounding drums. Here is example of DMX drums for EA7. Watch through the video.
#421347 - 05/16/1610:45 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
travlin'easy
Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15559
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I, and my previous audiences, absolutely love the sound and quality of the audio styles that Yamaha has introduced in its more recent PSR series of arranger keyboards. The only unfortunate thing I discovered is that you cannot record the audio styles (which use live drums) using the onboard USB recorder. The reason being I believe is because the onboard recorder/player is utilized for the audio style playback and both recording and playback cannot not be done simultaneously using the same device, which makes perfectly good sense. As for the editing, well, I'll leave that to Yamaha, whom seems to do an outstanding job in this respect.
Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
#421357 - 05/16/1602:00 PMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
rosetree
Unregistered
Thank you, Bernie, Mike and Bachus. It is an extremely tough tune with lots of complex jazz chords.
As most of you, I think the cost of losing editability is much too high compared to the tiny difference in realism of the drums. If you have a purely consumptive attitude with respect to the sound content and only want to use what the manufacturer has prepared and edit nothing, then audio drums might be a good way to go, but I think many players do want to be able to change things. Audio drums are another step of turning an arranger more into a mere instrumental playback machine for singers.
#421388 - 05/17/1611:02 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
DanO1
Senior Member
Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
I think all manufacturers agree that when it comes to authenticity, audio drums can't be beat. IMO we need audio drums.
When I was demonstrating for Ketron in 2000 - 2001 - 2003 the SD1 was introduced as having "live drums". By far the Ketron SD1 drum were the most impressive to many artist. To this day I have not heard a keyboard with better drums.
Every song I recorded would not be the same if I did not have the authentic drums.
#421390 - 05/17/1612:26 PMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3583
Loc: Middletown, DE
KETRON's approach is pretty unique and high tech... which does allow for Playback and Recording of the entire performance (including AUDIO DRUMS) onto the storage device! This means you can use a style that utilizes Audio drums, Audio bass and Audio Guitars, play along or sing as well and record everything to either a wave or MP3 file!
With the Audio elements being streamed from the hard/SS drive, very little memory is needed on board to process them.
As to the question of if you need Audio Drums or not, the answer lies in what you have and where you want to be with it. If a manufacturer has solid drum kit samples that can be triggered via midi to create a great drum set, then Audio drums are less likely to get them excited (but will still be a great add on of course) as compared to one whose midi drum kits are sub par ... adding Audio drums to such an instrument will really make it shine. Now consider having great midi drum kits PLUS Audio drums (like AUDYA/SD9), and you're in a class of your own.
#421403 - 05/18/1601:22 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
Bachus
Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Ketron_AJ
KETRON's approach is pretty unique and high tech... which does allow for Playback and Recording of the entire performance (including AUDIO DRUMS) onto the storage device! This means you can use a style that utilizes Audio drums, Audio bass and Audio Guitars, play along or sing as well and record everything to either a wave or MP3 file!
With the Audio elements being streamed from the hard/SS drive, very little memory is needed on board to process them.
As to the question of if you need Audio Drums or not, the answer lies in what you have and where you want to be with it. If a manufacturer has solid drum kit samples that can be triggered via midi to create a great drum set, then Audio drums are less likely to get them excited (but will still be a great add on of course) as compared to one whose midi drum kits are sub par ... adding Audio drums to such an instrument will really make it shine. Now consider having great midi drum kits PLUS Audio drums (like AUDYA/SD9), and you're in a class of your own.
AJ is Ketron planning to make the multi channel audio player compatible with the NI stems format?
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.
#421410 - 05/18/1607:01 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
rosetree
Unregistered
Originally Posted By: rosetree
On Saturday I made a multi-track recording, inspired by Klaus Doldinger's 80th birthday, it's the beginning of the Tatort TV theme (German criminal series with a long tradition).
It's still a raw version, I played each track manually on my Roland/Cakewalk A-300pro, connected to the Integra-7. Also the drum track.
Take a listen especially to the drums. As I said, it's still a raw version, but don't the drums sound very lively and real already? It's done with the Integra SuperNatural 'Session' drum set. If all arranger styles came with midi drums recorded manually like this, honestly I don't see the point of audio drums (which you can't edit). I think the problem of many midi styles is just that they were created by a computer and not midi-recorded by a human being on a keyboard or on pads.
Just for those who are interested, I have completed this TV music now (16 tracks!), with an improvisation part following (as Klaus Doldinger is a jazz musician, he had free improvisations in it, too). In the very last part, brass and strings come back in, creating a very dense, thrilling atmosphere:
#421421 - 05/18/1601:16 PMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
montunoman
Senior Member
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3208
Loc: Dallas, Texas
I believe that there many nuances, subtitles, and definitely FEEL/GROOVE that MIDI drums can not fully capture. I guess it is what is more important to the performer; complete control over the drum track or the authenticity of human feel/groove/ nuances. It's nice that some of our keyboards offer us both choices.
_________________________
It not the keyboard, it's the keyboardist.
#421424 - 05/18/1601:55 PMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: montunoman]
rosetree
Unregistered
Originally Posted By: montunoman
I believe that there many nuances, subtitles, and definitely FEEL/GROOVE that MIDI drums can not fully capture. I guess it is what is more important to the performer; complete control over the drum track or the authenticity of human feel/groove/ nuances. It's nice that some of our keyboards offer us both choices.
Are you saying this has no feel and groove? These are midi drums:
#421425 - 05/18/1602:17 PMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
rosetree
Unregistered
Some seem to be mixing up two things and associate the wrong things to "midi drums":
"Midi drums" does NOT necessarily mean that the drum rhythm is generated by a machine instead of a human being. Like you record an audio drum sequence from a real drummer, you can record a whole sequence played by a real drummer the same way via midi when a good midi drum set is used.
The problem with arranger styles is that the manufacturers haven't invested in drum sessions with a human drummer - but it wouldn't be necessary to go as far as to record "audio" drums - midi drums would create the real feeling as presented in the video above - but then you could STILL edit it afterwards.
#421436 - 05/19/1603:43 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: montunoman]
Bachus
Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: montunoman
I believe that there many nuances, subtitles, and definitely FEEL/GROOVE that MIDI drums can not fully capture. I guess it is what is more important to the performer; complete control over the drum track or the authenticity of human feel/groove/ nuances. It's nice that some of our keyboards offer us both choices.
I disagree with you on that... Where it comes to high end drum vst's...
I agree with you where it comes to arrangers...
Drums, is still an area where arrangers can make a huge step forward... Some time ago, i posted a video about the drummer in my logic X, it is so flexible, so controllable in real time.. It blows away any audio drum recordings, if such a thing was utilized in the same way inside an arranger.. You have full controll not only over the groove, but also over the swing and how busy and agrressive the drummer is...
In audio drums, even a 32 measures drum is just a loop that repeats itselves...
Not that audio drums are bad, currently they are still the highest quallity available in arrangers. Tough Korg pa4x comes quite close to audya audio drum quallity.. And Roalnd V-drum also is top knotch, yet not available in arrangers. I have some custom drums with roundrobin on the Kronos, which also make any drum track quite dynamic..
Edited by Bachus (05/19/1603:45 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.
#421447 - 05/19/1608:57 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
montunoman
Senior Member
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3208
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Are you saying this has no feel and groove? These are midi drums:
[/quote]
That drummer absolutely has great feel and groove. But it still sounds electronic- especially the fast single strokes and strange cymbal decay. That electronic sound will work fine for most modern popular music. But I don't think you'll find professional drummer playing in more subtle styles of music, such as acoustic jazz or be-bop favoring an electronic kit over an acoustic kit.
Electronic pads are even poorer at reproducing hand drums. Like I said, the e-drums are fine for most modern pop music. In fact, I love the idea that you talked about in your original post about having live drummers using e-drums used in the productions of styles for arranger keyboards. That would give us arranger keyboardists the best of both worlds: A good live feel with more control of the final output.
_________________________
It not the keyboard, it's the keyboardist.
#421449 - 05/19/1609:39 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
DanO1
Senior Member
Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
Bachus- I totally disagree with your opinions on drums. Please listen to any song on my reverbnation site and listen to the drum tracks. Everything you hear was recorded in 2002. I have not had one person save the drums sound bad. They may say the music I created sucks, but no one said the drums sound bad.
Many people forget General Music had a on board hard drive and the ability to syncopate samples with a arranger keybord, scroll notation & lyrics in 1998.
#421475 - 05/19/1608:32 PMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: DonM]
Bachus
Senior Member
Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: DonM
Something about the good dying young...Technics, General Music, maybe Roland next? Hope not.
I understood Roland isnt doing to bad, they have the aira series being a red hot success, also their pianos sell very very well.. And even the ea7 seems to sell well in asia..
Sad thing is, Technics didnt die, they just changed jobs...
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.
Not only the demonstrator, but also the instrument gem sk series was way ahead of its time.... The SK880 is the only instrument i still regret not having bought...
Its a synth, a stage piano and an arranger workstation in a single instrument... It was a very pro instrument...
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.
#421487 - 05/20/1608:19 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
DanO1
Senior Member
Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 3602
Loc: Maryland
Utilization of a hard drive was Ketron and General Music breakthrough.
When I 1st heard the SD1, it literally blew my mind feature and sound wise. I was the Ketron X1 demonstrator and one of the 1st people to see the SD1 keyboard in the USA.
Since drums do not respond to chord changes, steaming/syncopated audio drum tracks direct from the hard drive, was genius.
When the question was asked, do we need audio drums ? I laugh a little because in my opinion the answer is YES. Dating back to 2001.
#421496 - 05/20/1611:07 AMRe: Do we really need audio drums?
[Re: ]
rosetree
Unregistered
Back in 2001 it made more sense than today as the drum samples were worse. Based on the video of the Roland E-drums I posted, I think it is really far-fetched to say that such drums would still lack realism if they were used in full quality in an arranger style. I think there are still much more significant things and sounds to be further improved than the minimal differences in sound between good e-drums played by a human and acoustic drums recorded by audio. The real bottleneck when performing are the PA systems, which still don't succeed in giving the impression of a real drum set to be played in the room.
Previous Topic
Index