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#388388 - 04/26/14 11:23 AM
It's been too quiet around here..
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
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My impressions of the Korg PA900, after a couple days...testing it out (uncle Dave loaned me his)..
I am checking out the PA900, to see if it has value to me for senior center type gigs. Namely a small, light keyboard with speakers and a mic input..
I have found some interesting things,,some pro..some con..
The construction is designed to be light...plastic , not unlike the BK series and PSR series (maybe the Tyros too to an extent.)
The keys feel okay, better than the BK5 and PSR s950, maybe better than the Tyros, but close.
No after touch, but okay response from the action..
Most of the following will be comparison to the G70 as a benchmark, and my experiences with BK5, E50/60 and PSR/Tyros that I had..
The BK5 was ideal for me..for Senior centers, but I needed an external mic input (mixer).
The screen showing lyrics was small, but actually about the same as the lyric view on the PA900.
The Korg does not show chords on the screen for SMF ect.. all Rolands do..
The player (MP3 ect) is the same as the PA800..too many button pushes, better off with the BK5, although better than G70 (none)..
The sounds , are subjective, but still noticebly differenty. there are not many acoustic pianos to choose (2), the good thing.. they are decent. The EP 's are a strange mix, I did not like any compared to the BK and G70. An example, I like a tremolo EP, all Roland's have a good one. The tremolo reed EP on the Korg has an annoying sound on release of the key. Maybe the reason Korg uses a phaser instead of tremolo on the more usable EP's.
There are usually one or two good sounds in each category, but also a lot of useless sounds.. DNC and RX are naturally the better sounds on the Korg.
Across the board the better sounds are BK series, pianos , organ, drums ect.
The following points are mostly negative..
The audio inputs are terrible.. I ran the G70 into the ins on the Korg so I could compare the two, via Korg speakers. I could not believe what I heard, the Korg sounded so much better, IT WAS THE INPUTS QUALITY..
I ran the 2 boards through a common sound system, and the truth was heard. .the G70 out shines the Korg, easily in sound.
I think the audio quality via inputs may have to do with Dave's settings (I hope)..
Korg still has a stupid way of routing effects and the use of the mic, losing an input from the external inputs.
The much raved about vocal harmonizer, doesn't compare to the G70. Before anyone gets bent out of shape..try the G70 side by side. The Roland VH, has a smart interface, that analyse the chords for SMF, without the need to selcta track for info. It also automatically detects the right set up, for chord, vocoder, or any other VH detection needed. All the parameters are easily selected with no glitches while playing live. No risk of shutting down the sound (mute).. as the Korg does with an easily accidental touch of a wrong button.
I also did not like the clarity of the mic/vh..it easily distorted..on the Korg..
The sequencer on the Korg was okay, not in the same league as the G70... but way better than the BK5 (none). The quick song capture was okay on the Korg.. the G70 a little better less buttons to select..Routing to the sequencer, easily done on the G70, but a little complicated on the Korg... and having to name a seq before you can sequence a new song will stop the flow of your idea in a hurry.
The styles are good, I thougt the new styles were better with fills than previous styles. The bad...I don't like using a style in all variations and when you select an ending, this trumpet player takes over and he wasn't in the band the whole song.
Song books works okay, but I honestly believe the Roland user programs work better.. Also selecting external styles and playing immediately , are best on Rolands..G70 and BK series.
Getting around the keyboard during a performance..the winner is easily the G70.. The Korg is better than the BK5 because of the touch screen.. both the Korg and the BK5 are dependent of performance setting up, they lack the ease in the G70.
Final thoughts: Is the Korg PA900 a nice board..yes it is..If you need a light board, speakers, mic/vh with touch screen, and 61 keys...it could be for you. Value to dollar...a BK5 is half the price of the PA900, No mic input,no sequencer,no touch screen..the rest are equal..
If I don't need to consider speakers ( and I don't need them), maybe I should visit Bill Lewis and check out his BK9.
Right now, my only sensible solution for senior gigs..use the best board for me..The G70.. saving 20-25 pounds isn't worth the trade offs..
The G70 reminds me of my "old" 1973 Chevy truck I bought new, heavy duty loaded out, 454 engine , automatic... I had this truck for 29 years...Everytime I went shopping for a replacement truck, I would leave the showroom, realising, I had a better truck than what I just looked at..
Dave I won't need the whole week, I had your board for 20 hours time testing it out.. all my questions are answered.. I can return it when ever you want.. maybe Monday night if you go to the Solo meeting.
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#388393 - 04/26/14 11:53 AM
Re: It's been too quiet around here..
[Re: Fran Carango]
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Member
Registered: 03/19/09
Posts: 216
Loc: Southern New Jersey
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#388395 - 04/26/14 12:28 PM
Re: It's been too quiet around here..
[Re: Fran Carango]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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I believe it's been "too quiet around here" because most of us presently have an arranger that meets (or even exceeds) our needs.
I'd be hard pressed to find another arranger that fills all my requirements as well as my Tyros4...plus, it's paid for!
The important thing, to me, is that my arranger will let me update sounds and styles as required, so I have the optional sound expansion card installed in my Tyros4, and a wealth of Yamaha and third party styles from which to make fresh new styles, or improve/enhance existing ones.
Fran, I think you'd have to look long and hard before you'll find anything to replace the arranger that has already been meeting your needs very well these many years.
Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#388407 - 04/26/14 03:39 PM
Re: It's been too quiet around here..
[Re: ianmcnll]
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
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I believe it's been "too quiet around here" because most of us presently have an arranger that meets (or even exceeds) our needs.
I'd be hard pressed to find another arranger that fills all my requirements as well as my Tyros4...plus, it's paid for!
The important thing, to me, is that my arranger will let me update sounds and styles as required, so I have the optional sound expansion card installed in my Tyros4, and a wealth of Yamaha and third party styles from which to make fresh new styles, or improve/enhance existing ones.
Fran, I think you'd have to look long and hard before you'll find anything to replace the arranger that has already been meeting your needs very well these many years.
Ian Well said young man, did I just says that???
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey
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#388620 - 05/05/14 09:43 AM
Re: It's been too quiet around here..
[Re: Fran Carango]
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
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For what it's worth both the Pa-600 and Pa-900 are being built in China whereas the top of the line Pa3X is built in Italy. Chinese production quality has improved quite a bit over the last 10 years I might add. Italy, on the other hand, is well known for producing top quality products with a focus of attention on detail. I have yet to play the Pa-600 or the Pa-900 because Guitar Center still doesn't carry them at any of the local GC's in my area. By the way, I noticed that Guitar Center is in big financial trouble owing approximately $1 billion to their creditors. I suspect that some of the keyboard companies are hesitant to ship their products to GC outlets because of the financial mess they're in. On the other hand Yamaha continues to ship products to the Guitar Centers in my area which is nice to know. I would have kept the PSR-s950 if not for the few minor inconveniences I had with it. Examples being the really cheesy keys, an inferior Vocal Harmony and being unable to navigate the keyboard buttons in low-light venues. Other than that it was a nice arranger. Korg has just released the new Pa-300 arranger and from what I've gathered it's made in Italy although don't quote me on that. But it only has half as much WAV ROM as the Pa-900 but in contrast it has the same amount as the Pa-600. I've heard several people's opinion about the Pa-900 and most of what I've heard has been good. But there is a fly in the ointment where one guy said he actually sold his Pa-900 and bought a PSR-s950 and the reason he gave was the Yammie sounded better to his ears. To each his own I reckon. I see Fran is still bragging about his G70. For what it's worth I played the G70 and wasn't all that impressed. To each his own I reckon. Arrangers being built today are superior in many ways but in other ways not so much. Case in point, the sound quality has improved quite a bit but the overall build quality has taken a hit if you ask me. Plastic, plastic, and more plastic and the internal components have also taken a hit in some ways too. For instance the PSR-s950 Vocal Harmony components are inferior to the Tyros 1 which I owned but sold a few years back. I also think the Pa-900 VH ain't the greatest either although it's somewhat better than the Yammie in my opinion. Hopefully the Pa4x Vocal Harmony will be a step above the Pa3x but only time will tell. 256 note polyphony would also be a game changer but for whatever reason the Big 3 has milked 128 polyphony for all it's worth and therefore we might be stuck with 128 for another decade or longer which is just plain wrong in my opinion. I have harped on doubling the polyphony for a long time now but it keeps falling on deaf years for the most part. Ketron has upped the ante and Roland actually doubled it on the Jupiter-80 but it's a synth, not an arranger. PS: Fran said it's been too quite around here so I thought I'd chime in. Glad to see our good friend Don Mason is back on his feet. Bypass surgery techniques have improved quite a bit over the years and so has the recovery time. My advice to Don is stay healthy and a big part of doing that is eating healthy. All the best, Mike
Edited by keybplayer (05/05/14 09:49 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.
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#388692 - 05/08/14 07:45 AM
Re: It's been too quiet around here..
[Re: Fran Carango]
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
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256 polyphony would be nice Donny but 128 will have to do for now because that's all that's available. Except of course the Audya which has 192 polyphony but it only has USB 1.1 plus the price is sky high. That wouldn't be so bad if it also had USB 2.0, better styles and a larger user memory, etc. Unless something drastically changes during summer NAMM 2014 or winter NAMM 2015 I'm basically stuck between a rock and a hard place. As I stated previously the Big 3 could milk 128 note polyphony for several more years and they might actually be colluding with one another in order to "fix" the polyphony amount at 128 as a way of controlling the market. But as we know that tends to inhibit progress and innovation. We are basically at their mercy and they realize that and therefore they have a tendency to milk certain features and they do it because it's beneficial for them from a business standpoint. Consumers have to put up with it or go without. In my case, if a keyboard doesn't meet certain criteria I will generally look elsewhere. On the other hand, Yammie, Korg and Roland are betting the farm that most people will take the 'bait' hook, line and sinker. The Tyros5 is probably a good example of that in my opinion. Now before people start shooting flaming arrows in my direction the Tyros5 does have some new sounds that are in some cases superb but the B3 organs are still sub-par and of course it still only has 128 note polyphony. Again, people complained that the Tyros4 experienced note drop off but Yammie decided it was business as usual. Furthermore, the Tyros5 still costs around $6,000 out the door. The sad part is Yammie is laughing all the way to the bank because the Tyros line continues to sell like hotcakes. Which means that most people obviously don't care about various shortcomings (or the lack of quality control, especially on the Tyros5) and continue to shell out the big bucks for what are at best incremental improvements on the Tyros5 in my opinion. To each his own I reckon. The Korg Pa-300 has piqued my interest because it looks like a solidly built arranger at a bargain basement price and it also has 128 note polyphony. Once I get the hang of playing an arranger again I will at some point upgrade to perhaps the Pa4x or some other high-end arranger product that will hopefully have 256 note polyphony but obviously I won't hold my breath if you know what I mean. All the best, Mike
Edited by keybplayer (05/08/14 07:50 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.
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#388735 - 05/08/14 07:40 PM
Re: It's been too quiet around here..
[Re: Fran Carango]
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 2417
Loc: CA
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Bill is right Donny. Sustain plus multi-layered voices and also three right hand voices simultaneously on the newer Korg arrangers. Combine that with a left hand voice which in many cases is multi-layered and then on top of that multi-pads, styles and also midi files, all playing simultaneously, will eat up polyphony real fast.
I've exceeded the polyphony on my Fantom G7 on occasion and it's not an arranger. Arrangers are multi-faceted instruments that are polyphony intensive. For instance, just playing in auto-accompaniment mode can drain polyphony rather quickly, especially if you use the sustain pedal. Keyboard manufacturers utilize software algorithms in an attempt to minimize the effects of note drop off. But algorithms only provide minimal relief and in reality when you exceed the polyphony limit notes do get cut off and that can be unnerving in a live performance setting. If notes get cut off you won't hear certain sounds (notes) that you are attempting to play and in which your audience deserves to hear. But they won't if you run out of polyphony and quite frankly it is relatively easy to do on an arranger.
If the Big Three doubled the current polyphony standard to 256 it would create huge excitement within the music community. Keyboard players of all stripes have repeatedly asked the Big Three to double the polyphony to 256 but so far it has gone largely unheeded. There are a few like the Roland Juptier-80 and Casio's PX-5S plus certain Yammie Clavinova's and one or two Kawai's and that's about the extent of it. Only the Clavinova is an arranger and they cost an arm and a leg unfortunately. There are some portable organs that have 'unlimited' polyphony but again they aren't arrangers.
By the way, I noticed the Pa-300 doesn't have stereo outputs and so I wouldn't be able to hook it up to an external sound system which is a deal breaker for me unfortunately. I've been itching to play the Pa-900 and if Guitar Center gets one in I'll be sure to demo it if I can. Sometimes they get something in stock but they won't put it up on display for whatever reason. If things don't pan out here locally I might end up purchasing something online. Stay tuned.
All the best, Mike
Edited by keybplayer (05/08/14 07:43 PM)
_________________________
Yamaha Genos, Mackie HR824 MKII Studio Monitors, Mackie 1202 VLZ Pro Mixer (made in USA), Cakewalk Sonar Platinum, Shure SM58 vocal mic.
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#388761 - 05/09/14 10:50 AM
Re: It's been too quiet around here..
[Re: Fran Carango]
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
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All SC sound engine based Roland keyboards handle polyphonic well..128 polyhony is fine, as most of the early 64 were..
Per arranger the polyphony is handled in this way..Priority goes to drums first (always allowing a mininum of voices), than bass, etc for the most important parts..each with a mininum voice..
The next important way to handle polyphony is last note reserve ..that allows the first note to drop off, making it almost impossible to hear..
I have never heard a drop off on any 128 voice Roland arranger that I have played..
I have had drop offs with Yamaha arrangers (low priced PSR's would mute all sounds till it recovered..what a nightmare).yet a Roland 24 and 28 voice SC board (E-66), would have no noticble drops, thanks to priority voice allocation..
Todays 128 Roland's are more than enough in the arranger line..
I should mention the MediaStation was 256 voice, never dropped out, even though it didn't seem to have the advanced allocation Roland uses...it relied on pure numbers..
G1000 64 voice was fine, as the Korg 62 voice...I recall the 126 voice Yamaha 9000 Pro , did not fare well in layerd pianp/strings...very noticable.(probably poor allocation method)
Another consideration that will save polyphony..Use of sample "parts" (Roland).."elements" (Korg), and whatever Yamaha calls it sound events..
Most of your better sound designers use 1 or 2 sample parts (elements)..keep in mind it will use a polyphony part for each element triggered..The use of velocity switched sounds and velocity filtering save polyphony..Better sound design takes advantage of this..
The key to using less parts/elements are bigger , fuller samples..limiting the need for more partials (elements) needed.. Filtering and changing of the larger samples does not use more polyphony, as added parts and elements do..
Here again is where the Roland G70 or BK series shines, most are 1 or 2 partials (complete samples)..compared to as an example 4 element Korg sounds (use 4 polyphony) for a single sound.. Velocity switching sample tones is a big reason Roland handles polyphony better than it's competition..
Just some things to think about, while you try to understand the polyphony issues..
Edited by Fran Carango (05/09/14 11:19 AM)
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