Hello,

Here is a video I just received from one user who recorded the Ketron SD2 and the Korg PA600 playing the Tyros 5 styles right out of the box with vArranger.

They are hard to compare... because you are trying to compare a ballance that isnt there...

Its wellknown that whenever you play a Yamaha style on a Korg, you need to volume up the basses a little ... Thats juts because Korg styles have a different ballance then Yamaha styles..

Dan, .......yes it sounds pretty decent for sure, but we knew that,....but what I would be personally interested in would be to see how vArranger can be operated in a live situation regarding NAVIGATION & what I mean by that is a demo of it being used with styles and sounds that are being changed on the fly etc, etc, and how it is setup ragarding a song list on display, etc, .....
in other words how close can it come to when operating vArranger versus an Arranger KB? After all I don't know if I would ever try it but seeing it being used would at least give me or others a look into using it as an viable option on stage.......navigation ease is a key issue.

There is not much info on the site to know what you can do with it and no mention anywhere about what operating system or how much of a computer you need to use it. ????

Windows or Apple?
Can you save the input as a useable file for direct use on another keyboard - for example - input a Yamaha style saved as a useable and loadable to Korg style!
Probably not the intended use for Varranger, but this is not clear to me from what I see here.

Bill G

I can help out here. I have used Dan's vArranger on live gigs often. I use a Roland A-800Pro controller with various control buttons and sliders setup to do just about anything I need for a live gig without ever having to touch the laptop on which vArranger is running. It works pretty much just like a normal keyboard. I have run vArranger on Windows 7, Windows 8, and also running Windows 7 on my MacBook Pro. It all worked just fine.

Deane

Thats all well and good Deane thanx for your reply,,.......but I need to see it in action somehow video etc, to see if MY needs are met using it?.....may I also ask Why your not still using it?.....& if not why did you change?..

It is very easy to change volumes, pan, sounds, ADSR, expression, tuning, etc........ and SAVE.

I hope to post more real demos for you

It is for Windows only.
Mac users can install windows on Bootcamp.
Some users installed it using Parallels, but I never tried it personally.
Any computer will work (min Windows XP)
You don't need a fast computer if you use an external synth.
If you want to use VST or load big SoundFonts, you need more memory

There is no modifications done to the original styles, nor any style converter. The styles are natively supported.

Dan I would love that thank you so much...cant wait.

Here is a link to a video of me using vArrager live on a gig. The sound is not all that great but you can see how it works with a controller. I am still using a mouse to select a song on vArranger but I now have a button on the controller setup to go to the next song in the list and the mouse is not needed. I use the iPad for my lead sheets.

https://app.box.com/s/njuhub4zbf6nfb6om9ni

Deane

very Nice Deane enjoyed watching .........question: isn't there a pedal you can use for the page scrolling also you dont have to use your hands?...and for sound source?...SD2? or? Thats a nice looking controller..

Donny,
Perhaps Dan can jump in here and provide accurate info but as I understand things vArranger works best with the Ketron SD2 or similar unit which is what I use. I have tried pedals but prefer just scrolling with my finger - works ok for me especially on the iPad. The trick is to spend the time to do the controller button and slider setups which is easily done right in vArranger. Even a midi dummie like me can do it. Yes, the Roland A-800 Pro controller is a first class piece of equipment - key bed feel is very good too.

Deane

Lets be honest here, though. Without the original T5 style's audio, it isn't really a comparison, is it?

Overall, I'd say, if those SD-2 and PA600 kits are the best choice to match the Yamaha ones, the drumkit mapping needs improvement. Plus, panning seems strange. Some of the SD-2 examples felt like the snare was pushed off to the left.

When vArranger plays these styles into the sound source, is it generally asking for GM2 type sounds, or is the mapping going deeper into the best sounds the modules make?

I'm also hearing these styles a lot drier than I think the original might have had. And sorry, but an Intro and an Ending (both of which are essentially SMF's, not style play)... you aren't throwing chord changes at the style. That's where it all becomes easier to hear.

Not to mention that awful vibrato sound at 10:56! Wow! What was THAT on the T5? LOL

Maybe, at least with the PA600, you can create kits and sounds that match the Yamaha's original overall sound a BIT better, but so far, I'm afraid it all reminds me of some cheap 15 year old arranger, and I can get one of those for less than the software alone!

Thing is, play a PA600 style alongside, and you start to see what gets 'lost in translation'... I've said many times, the performance and the SOUND are intrinsically linked. Each sound makes you play a certain way. Each combination of sounds makes you play them differently. Change the sound, and you change how well the performance played into it works. No two sax sounds respond the same way to the same data, and don't even get me STARTED about kits! PA600 sounds great playing its OWN styles, but these translations almost make me think it is a different, cheaper arranger.

I think vArranger is a great IDEA, but, as with using VSTi sources, if you aren't using the sound source that the style creator used to make the style on, you are always going to get mixed results.

I just have noticed that when I played this video on Youtube, the sound was A LOT better than here ! Don't know why...

I don't have any doubts that the Tyros 5 will sound better than this !

T5 is very new, and I didn't worked a lot on the mapping
You are right, I need to remove the vibratos of some sounds

So DIKI, you are right, you will never get the perfect sound with styles without the original sound engine.

But... I will continue anyway to improve things in many directions

GM-Ketron-VST-SoundFonts-Korg/Roland/Ketron/Yamaha/vArranger Styles&sounds...

Hi all,

Please enlighten me also. If I use my Audya, can I load unmodified Tyros 5 styles into it, hook my midi out to a PC and then play these styles using VA as the sound source?

I'm not interested in midis, can I play these styles live as I would play any other Audya style?

Kind regards,

Henni

Henni, If I understand you correctly, you need to play back the Tyros 5 styles using the Audya Engine.. right ?

You copy the Tyros 5 styles to the vArranger style folder. Select Audya as the MIDI OUT in the settings for the vArranger.
Remap the style and RH sounds if required to use the Audya sounds(VCE sounds etc.)

You may need to load the .ins file for Audya to list out and be able to select the Audya sounds.

vArranger works best with the SD-2 /SD1/ SD4/SD5/SD1000 soundset.
Audya has many sounds which are far better than the above SD series. The vArranger has a user friendly interface for Live and detailed use and can be quickly used to assign, save and recall settings.

vArranger is flexible in that it does support SF2, .ins files and even vsti instruments with options of having upto three MIDI OUTs possible per channel.

Perhaps Dan can help you more on this.

Regards,
Jez

Yes Jez is right.

You can't load Yamaha styles on Audya, but you can load the T5 styles in vArranger who will use your Audya as the master keyboard and as the sound module.
You just need to connect the USB cable to the PC

I did not tested this configuration during much time along with my audya to see if it stable enough to use it on live gigs.

You can use some tabs of the Audya like variation ABCD, FILL... to control vArranger, because it can accept sysex

Hi Dan & Jez,

Tx for the info. What is the price of vArranger?

Kind regards,

Henni

Hi Dan,

I've found your forum & off course the price. Will this work with my Audya?

Regards,

Henni

Yes, it will

Hi Dan,

Let me just make sure I understand correct:

1. I load i.e. Tyros 5 styles into vArranger.
2. I set up some midi & Sysex channels via USB to vArranger on my laptop..
3. I play my Audya normally using internal styles.
4. I can also play my Audya using Tyros 5 & other styles from vArranger on my my PC.
5. All my intros, fills, variations etc works direct from my Audya.
6. I can add part of Audya styles to play along with vArranger.
7. I either use voices from my PC soundcard or via USB cable direct from my Audya or mix & match to my liking,.
8. I can set up my registrations so that all I do is select a new registry. That will determine whether vArranger, the Aydya or both will play back. I can always mute all style channels on the Audya for that specific registry.
9. There are no noticeable latency problems.
10. vArranger will reckognize & respond to all normal chords played on the Audya.
11. Can I select the vArranger specific style to be played direct from the Audya using registries?

Do I understand the above correct? If so, how can anyone NOT have your software? It will save me buying any other keyboard, use my single Audya as master and be able to play styles correct from most popular brands without any conversion other than balancing etc. Yes, I know I cannot have the multipads or audio features of the Tyros 5, but with the Audya, who cares! I'll have the ability to add audio loops to already fantastic styles, much more functional than multipads.

If I understand correct, you have yourself a serious customer. That is after I've settled my account with Klaus, that is.

Kind regards,

Henni

Henni

I have the vArranger and Dan is adding to it faster than I can keep up. He can answer the technical questions, but I see one thing regarding using the Audya alone for control.

When you first configure your master kb to control all of your parts and functions, you can use midi learn by going to the control parameter and moving a midi active slider or button. These can be assigned to a master kb or the laptop keyboard.

What I am saying is that the Audya, nor any other arranger has enough midi active buttons to use for control unless you use a touch screen, assign some to the laptop keyboard, or, use a Korg Nano to supplement your control sliders and buttons.

vArranger with Dan is the best investment I have made, but you need to be aware of the hardware requirements also. My old Axiom 61 does it all, but it is an additional piece of gear.

Bernie

Hi Henny,

1. I load i.e. Tyros 5 styles into vArranger. YES
2. I set up some midi & Sysex channels via USB to vArranger on my laptop.. No need to setup anything. Just set USB/MIDI in audya, and sends full keyboard on channel 1
3. I play my Audya normally using internal styles. YES
4. I can also play my Audya using Tyros 5 & other styles from vArranger on my my PC. YES
5. All my intros, fills, variations etc works direct from my Audya. YES and NO. There is not so much problems to assign the VARIATION , INTRO, FILL buttons to vArranger. But, If you assign the START button, it will also start the audya, and sends tons of messages to vArranger
6. I can add part of Audya styles to play along with vArranger. You can't play audya styles in vArranger, you can syncro vArranger, and audya styles playing together, but it seems that audya sync does not work with audio styles. only with midi styles
7. I either use voices from my PC soundcard or via USB cable direct from my Audya or mix & match to my liking,. YES
8. I can set up my registrations so that all I do is select a new registry. That will determine whether vArranger, the Aydya or both will play back. I can always mute all style channels on the Audya for that specific registry. vArranger registrations will only select everything to play styles of vArranger, not in Audya
9. There are no noticeable latency problems. NO
10. vArranger will reckognize & respond to all normal chords played on the Audya. YES
11. Can I select the vArranger specific style to be played direct from the Audya using registries? Not really. Maybe, if your style can be called from a program change message, you can create a VOICE in vArranger, with that number, and when you call this voice in varranger, it will call your style in Audya. I don't know...

Hi Dan & Bernie,

Thank you for your answers. Pity the Audya & VA cannot be synched - just think of the possibilities if they could...

So then, apart from selecting, starting & stopping the style from VA, all the rest could be controlled from the Audya. Can the Audya be the only source for the sounds without using a PC sound card? Thus, I would need ONLY the USB cable between the PC & Audya.

Regards,

Henni

apart from selecting, starting & stopping the style from VA, all the rest could be controlled from the Audya. Every Audya button can control vArranger, but be carreful because this will also select things on the Audya. So for example, if you press VARIATION B button, it will ask to vArranger to change variation B,but will also do it on the Audya. It's not a problem, but imagine for example the DISK button of the audya it can control vArranger, but will also go in the disk page of Audya. So not every button can be used

Can the Audya be the only source for the sounds without using a PC sound card? YES

Thus, I would need ONLY the USB cable between the PC & Audya. YES

Sounds like you need better filters in vArranger, to stop MIDI commands coming FROM the Audya getting looped back into the Audya...

And possibly some better MIDI implementation in the Audya to determine if a switch or slider sends on MIDI only, or whether it should control the Audya only, or both...

I don't often get much support here when I go off on one of my rants about how BAD most arranger's MIDI implementation is, and how much more the manufacturers could do to standardize the MIDI codes for most basic arranger operation, but here is a perfect example of why we NEED this kind of stuff. The minute you want to use your arranger with something else, anything else, you start bumping into this kind of thing.

Keep the pressure up on the manufacturers to NOT turn arrangers into standalone products that are very difficult to integrate into an entire MIDI system...

The problem is not filtering in vArranger or loopback.

It's simply that when you press a button on the arranger, it does what it has to do.

Ketron is better than other, because it sends a SYSEX every time you press a button.

So you can assign the PIANO button of the Audya to the PIANO button of vArranger, but when you press this button, it will select the piano section in vArranger, but also in the Audya.
It's not a problem.

But some buttons, like MENU or DISK, etc... it's better to not assign them, because you think you will control vArranger, but in fact you are removing some files in your Audya together

Is there a feature that disconnects the Audya from it's front panel? Local off, I think many WS's called it...

Strikes me that that, combined with a loop through filter on vArranger might solve the issue.

I have to confess, I'm also not really keen on sys-ex over regular MIDI CC's and MSB/LSB codes for arranger functions. Longer sys-ex strings can interrupt the timing clock functions, and make the MIDI stream a bit jittery...

Both Korg and Roland do most arranger operational codes with CC's and PC's. Yamaha use a combination of CC/PC's and sys-ex. It's this lack of any standardization that makes hooking one thing to another fraught with problems. We really need the major manufacturers to get together and standardize this stuff...

Local OFF doesn't disconnects any synth from it's panel.
It's only disconnects the notes played on the keyboard to the internal synth
Sending a short SYSEX when you press a key will not cause problems.
Sending 30 midi notes on the first downbeat of the style is more problematic

Trouble is, those 30 notes are no problem, it's the tons of CC's and sys-ex that try to get sent out BEFORE the notes get sent that's the issue.

One sys-ex, unless it's a complex string, yes, no problem. But nowadays, a ton of the style editing, offsets, things like that tend to get sent as sys-ex, and can add up to a ton of stuff if a lot of work on many Parts is being sent at each Division boundary.

Interesting thread, but I see no point trying to run Tyros 5 styles through software or any other sound module or keyboard brand.

I bought a Tyros 5 for its realistic voices and styles and an all in one arranger to create my music and take to my gigs. All my style tweaking and saves are done ahead of time, as well as necessary registrations and midi files.

Yamaha programmed even more realistic Mega voices and SA voices into the styles. A lot of the choir and vocal Mega voices were reworked with more complex velocity variations. New DSP effects were assigned to voices, especially many new guitar voices in both the acoustic and electric categories.

These complex voices and high quality DSP effects are what make the styles sound more natural and real. They will only sound good or the best on a Tyros 5. It is also well known that the Audio parts from the Audio Styles cannot be copied or converted to midi.

Marcus

Marcus,

Like you are satisfied with your Tyros 5, I am with my Audya. We use it for all our performances. Both mics play through it. We use the onboard harmonizer & all I have is the two outs to the mixer & then to the amps.

I miss many of my Yamaha styles. These do not convert well to any other format. I would hate to perform with two arrangers, as I would have to set-up another midi switch to select which harmonizer controls the mics etc. Start getting a bit laborious.

So, vArranger might be the answer. If the Audya could be synched with it (although I understand this is rather unlikely because of the host of other sys-ex commands this generates), I could play audio drums and a selection of many other audio & midi loops (standard in the Audya) along with some styles. Can you imagine the results?

So for me, this might be something to seriously consider at a 10th the price of a new Tyros 5.

Henni

Yes, if you have a Tyros 5, there is no need to play Tyros 5 styles with a computer

Juan created another videos with more styles.
If someone is interested, I will put new links talking about vArranger in facebook :

https://www.facebook.com/vArranger

Henni,

Surely its deviating from your current situation but I still feel the best bet would be a light MIDI controller with an Audya 4 Module instead of the Audya keyboard assuming it has all the functionalities of the keyboard version. And you could save on the module over the keyboard and use it to buy a Roland BK-7m and / or Yamaha XS rack[all played through the vArranger since it supports other style formats and has multiple MIDI Outs for each channel]

I do use Oxygen MIDI controller + 4X4 MIDI Interface + vArranger running on my desktop + SD-2 and PSR S-950. But I play only at home so there is no hassle of carrying two keyboards and the related setup etc. But yes an all in one TOTL like the T5 or an Audya gives you a easier learning curve and a faster setup.

Regards,
Jez

Marcus... simply substitute Roland or Korg for Yamaha, and you may see why something like this is so good... You like your T5, but maybe you'd like to play some Roland styles or Korg styles into it?

Sure, you can buy EMC software, do all the converting yourself, deal with drum maps and non-standard sounds and features, or you get vArranger, and have it do all that for you, in realtime!

This thread concentrated on ONE way of using it, using Ketron or Korg sound sources to play Yamaha styles. But there's no reason (if Dan has the maps working) why it can't go in the other direction, depending on the Tyros's capabilities.

Hi DiKi
I still don't quite understand what you are saying and the purpose of the software. So for some reason the vArranger degrades the sounds of the Tyros 5, and I assume Yamaha styles in general, but substituting Roland or Korg make the vArranger sound "so good".
The program will make TOTL Roland or Korg sound better? Don't people buy the TOTL product for its sound quality and all-in-one capabilities?
I do load Roland and Korg styles into my Tyros 5, of course the pre-converted ones, but I am trying to improve the sound, not degrade it, plus wouldn't one what to convert and setup styles before a live situation. One bring more than your one arranger to a gig? Isn't that the point a an arranger?
I have done Custom Voices and Custom Drum kits with my own samples with my Tyros 3 and 4 over the years, and load no problem into the Tyros 5 via my Tyros 4 library saves. Now my Custom Voices and Drum Kits sound even better plus the ability to use the new and latest DSP effects and integrate sound of the Custom Voices into the styles as well.
I am in the process now of converting some of my favorite and usable Roland, Ketron and Korg to the Tyros 5 and voice/drumkit plalets. A lot of them adapt well into the T5 Audio Style conversion and the other Mega, SA, and Custom Voices. I can't see how the vArranger program is going to make these styles sound better or realer than the T5 sounds?
On another Yamaha forum I posted MP3s of one of Hennie's old styles converted into audio in the Tyros 5 Style Creator. Took less than 5 minutes, but once saved it is there for gigging if I want.
Also there was one of my several Tyros 5 Audio Styles converted to midi. Anyone with a T4 or T5 can try it if they want. I am fine with the Tyros 5 capabilities for now.

Regards Marcus

So there are three downloads below. The first is the MP3 of the T5 country audio style, EasyCountry1, just running through Intro III, variation A-B-C-D, Break, variation A again, and ending III. The second MP3 is a recording of the same style with the midi drum part conversion and how it sounds on a T5. My T4 isn't home right now, so I can't test it myself, but anyone else be my guest. The third download is the converted style to try. It has that name because I borrowed the midi drum part from the most suitable style, the EasyCountry2 which isn't audio.

The Audio Styles are not at all limiting, I'll have no problem filling up my User Drive with saves, plus 50 great Audio Styles easily converted to midi with outstanding quality, programing and realism of the new T5 voices and DSPs.

EasyCountry1-audio.mp3

https://app.box.com/s/2ye4l20f0bu735q036p7



EasyCountry1-midi.mp3

https://app.box.com/s/8c8103y07rpcuq3nqw0p



EasyCountry1-midiEasyCty2.STY

https://app.box.com/s/unwliv5sr3znymbw82op

Just to add that the Tyros 5 Audio Styles are not limited to hybrid styles with the Tyros 5 styles only, but thousands of 3rd party styles as well. So basically you can take a basic style and convert it to audio on the Tyros 5 Style Creator. So all your Korg or Ketron Styles for instance.

I am slowing going through my favorite styles and just going through Hennie's conversion styles. For instance in his Fav2B folder, for fun I took his Cocaine_Ty style and made it audio with the SheriffReggae Audio Style. Again, here are two MP3s, first the original midi style converted to audio in the second example.

Cocaine_Ty.mp3

https://app.box.com/s/ewtoy7b4eogbvtdp0urb


SheriffReggae Cocaine.mp3

https://app.box.com/s/jk6fwjfrpnjrgl9vlv8x


So when someone says limitations, I say what limitations. Beyond limitations, you can take style conversions from other brands and make them better with the Tyros 5 sounds. Why limit yourself just to the other brand arrangers?

Marcus, some people need an arranger software, and some not, like you.

Hi Dan

I apologize if I am misunderstanding this thread. My understanding was that the demo had a Tyros 5 hooked up to the software and either the Ketron SD2 or Korg PA600 is playing the styles.

So in a live situation, why would you do this if the better arranger sounds is already there? If the Tyros 5 is not present in the demo, then where are the Tyros 5 styles coming from?

Marcus

No, the demo was of a LAPTOP hooked up to a Korg and a Ketron module. The only thing T5 about it was the original styles (presumably copied from memory and played by the laptop).

And naturally, as the T5 has only been out for a short while, I think Dan's maps for the drumkits and other sounds has room for improvement.

But the basic idea of the product is, no matter WHAT arranger you have (or if you only have a controller and some modules or other keyboards), you can play Roland, Yamaha and Korg styles (Ketron's not quite there, is it Dan, because of the audio loops unless you use a Ketron sound source, right?) without going through the hassle of EMC'ing them and tweaking.

O.k., make more sense now. That is going to be a tall order getting the same sound quality of the original arranger style and arranger keyboard, regardless of brand through software conversion. The TOTL arrangers keep getting better and better.

At least speaking for Yamaha styles, it is going to be very difficult interpreting velocity sensitive midi style data for the Mega voice parts, and the complex programming data from the SA style voices that render realistic performance nuances to the overall style.

Anyway, interesting thread, good luck with software interfaces. I had enough issues in the past with live software interfaces and latency issues, but I guess technology is getting better. Not for everyone.

Regards, Marcus

No, naturally, proprietary techniques from each keyboard type tend to lose a bit in translation, but that door swings both ways... there are things Korg and Roland and Ketron do that don't quite sound right on Tyros, either.

And no, of COURSE it is impossible to sound identical going from one arranger to another... But, especially for more legacy styles (before some of the proprietary stuff became commonplace in styles) you should be able to get close.

I see this product as sort of an 'instant EMC converter' in some ways, but it has the potential to go quite a bit further. For instance, there's no reason why it can't add a Chord Sequencer (may have already, I think Dan was working on that) so if your own arranger doesn't have that feature, now it does! Same goes for the Dynamic Arranger feature from Roland (you looked into this, Dan?), where the velocity you are playing on the keyboard adds or subtracts a bit of velocity from the Style Parts, and makes them follow YOUR dynamics. It's an amazing feature, currently Roland only, I think...

Out of the box, I think it is still a bit raw (I think there's considerable room for improvement in the translation tables) but you can edit all the styles played by it, so if there are better sounds and kits, you can tell it to use them.

My only regret is that it isn't an iPad or Mac app yet, but who knows? An iPad version would be incredible!

BTW, Dan, have you looked into adding the capability to save styles in the destination format to vArranger, maybe for people who don't want the hassle of using a laptop, but would like to use the style in the destination arranger?

Basically, you have all the pieces in place, the correct mapping of style Divisions, mapping of sounds and effects, etc.. All you need to add would be a 'Save as...' command, and you might kill EMC's business (which has been a bit spotty and shaky as of late) and take over as the #1 style translator.

I don't really like style conversion, because you need sometimes to do compromise.
Some style formats does not includes all the features of the other ones so you will lose things.
vArranger is different, because it will try to play every style format with all available features

So, essentially, if it has all the features of the destination arranger, it should do the translation, shouldn't it?

I guess the thing that changes the most between arrangers is the CV's, right? Different patterns for different chord types... If vArranger is already dealing with this, it should be able to do a 'save as', shouldn't it?

I think you might gain a LOT more sales of the software if it not only operated as a standalone style 'player', but also did conversions too. Be great to use it on a laptop to audition a bunch of styles, but for those that would rather use their own arranger to play the styles, it would then be even GREATER if, once you found a style you liked in vArranger, it then did the conversion.

Win/win..!

I understand what you are saying, even if for now it's not the direction I am following.

Yes we can have problems with CVs.

For examples Ketron or Roland styles can have 3 different CV * 8 tracks = 24 phrases for each section
But limited as Maj / Min / 7th

Korg has even more CVS.

Yamaha has only 16 phrases BUT can has more chords. Record one bass line for Maj, one for m9, one for #11Aug.......

So finally, you have to do some compromise when you downmix to a converted style.

Yamaha and Korg has some complex guitar tracks who need a special engine. You can convert them to a simple Cmaj chord.. but you will miss the guitar player style...

And more examples like this...