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#377054 - 12/03/13 01:03 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: Diki
Something I've never seen a discussion of, when it comes to VSTi use with an arranger is, how well do they implement the codes that arrangers use to 'bend' or 'snap' old notes to new ones when you play a chord a tiny fraction late...

Let me explain...

If you've ever looked at the MIDI event code of an arranger 'capture', you'll often see a lot of codes that turn on portamento to time=0, then make the original note a tiny, short one and replace it with the correct note, which the original gets bent, or 'snapped' to. In other words, if you are playing a G chord, then ask for a C chord just a TINY fraction of a beat late, on the 'one' of the beat or bar, the notes for that G chord will play, then a few ticks later the notes for the C chord will appear, BUT, there's no re-triggering of the note, so you don't really hear anything much, because it has been portamento'd with a time of zero to the new note, so the envelopes don't retrigger.

Now, those of you using VSTi's with arrangers... how well does it deal with this, or does it ignore all that kind of stuff and stutter around a bit?

There's a lot going on under the hood with arrangers to help it mitigate our less than perfect playing. But when you use VSTi's, do they do the same thing?


I think the code for doing that is build intoo the arranger, and not into the soundsource, playing a style and use a style track to trigger an external vst and you will see it still works as if the vst sound was a native sound.

Tough i know from experience that in for example the media station or live-styler this is a severe problem, which you can blame on the arranger code and not the vsts..

Just wondering how Varranger is handling the problem you described?
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#377067 - 12/03/13 02:27 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Diki]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By: Diki
Something I've never seen a discussion of, when it comes to VSTi use with an arranger is, how well do they implement the codes that arrangers use to 'bend' or 'snap' old notes to new ones when you play a chord a tiny fraction late...

Let me explain...

If you've ever looked at the MIDI event code of an arranger 'capture', you'll often see a lot of codes that turn on portamento to time=0, then make the original note a tiny, short one and replace it with the correct note, which the original gets bent, or 'snapped' to. In other words, if you are playing a G chord, then ask for a C chord just a TINY fraction of a beat late, on the 'one' of the beat or bar, the notes for that G chord will play, then a few ticks later the notes for the C chord will appear, BUT, there's no re-triggering of the note, so you don't really hear anything much, because it has been portamento'd with a time of zero to the new note, so the envelopes don't retrigger.

Now, those of you using VSTi's with arrangers... how well does it deal with this, or does it ignore all that kind of stuff and stutter around a bit?

There's a lot going on under the hood with arrangers to help it mitigate our less than perfect playing. But when you use VSTi's, do they do the same thing?


HI Diki

Wersi (And I believe Bohm as well) are just Midi Controller keyboards that are setup as an Organ/Arranger, thus all the work is done by the controller and it does not differentiate whether it is controlling an internal voice, (Which in the case of OAS 7 is actually a VST anyway) VSTi or External Midi Sound, consequentially the issues you mention are not relevant.

Hope this helps

Bill
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#377071 - 12/03/13 03:01 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
The re-triggering depends on the Arranger AND on the sound module capabilities.

Some VST instruments implements this, but some not...
As hardware sound modules


Edited by DAN.2000 (12/03/13 03:02 PM)
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#377072 - 12/03/13 03:08 PM Re: The open arrangers [Re: DAN.2000]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: DAN.2000
The re-triggering depends on the Arranger AND on the sound module capabilities.

Some VST instruments implements this, but some not...
As hardware sound modules


Thank you Dan, i knew you where the expert on this....

Which makes me beleive that you Varranger sends the retriggers..

Since you are working hard on implementing vsts in varranger, maybe its a wise idea to have a list with vsts that do and dont support this, as well as list for modules and synths.
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#377095 - 12/04/13 01:11 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
vArranger doesn't support this yet, but I will do it soon.

The Ketron SD2 does not support this.

I for now have included an intelligent algorithm to do the re-triggering smooth as possible...

Let me know witch VST do you want me to test.

The biggest problem with VST is the midi implementation yes....

Tons of VSTi are working on simply ONE midi channel, so it's not possible to use them on 2 tracks, or you need to load the VSTi 2 times...
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#377098 - 12/04/13 03:50 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5375
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi Dan

You must only use the Standard Midi codes, (Forget adding any special codes) with all other manipulation being done by the controller itself, (In this instance the arranger section) this is the way both Bohm & Wersi have operated since the 90s and it works without glitches. (Even the SD2 you mention works as sweet as a nut with them)

Hope this helps

Bill
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English Riviera:
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#377099 - 12/04/13 04:03 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
As you know, every GM device has an implementation chart at the end, and not all features/controllers are available for every synth

Of course, vArranger try to adapt, and is working almost great with all the GM synth and VST
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Dan
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#377104 - 12/04/13 07:37 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
adimatis Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1160
Loc: Oradea, RO
I am sure these are all different between them in more than one way, but definitely the most interesting will be the multitimbral VSTs.
That's why, I believe the sorts of Kontakt, HalionSonic or Sampletank will be most interesting.
IK's Sampletank 3 is going to be announced in January at NAMM, and it seems there are a lot of improvements and the interest builds up nicely.
Maybe vArranger could be a best match for such a virtual sound module! That will be killer.
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#377105 - 12/04/13 07:56 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: adimatis]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By: adimatis
I am sure these are all different between them in more than one way, but definitely the most interesting will be the multitimbral VSTs.
That's why, I believe the sorts of Kontakt, HalionSonic or Sampletank will be most interesting.
IK's Sampletank 3 is going to be announced in January at NAMM, and it seems there are a lot of improvements and the interest builds up nicely.
Maybe vArranger could be a best match for such a virtual sound module! That will be killer.


Those would work great to build a base library for a software Arranger... I am a big fan of Kontakt myself, which works good when i trigger VST sounds from my keyboard. But these are merely advanced sample players

However, to get the true depth of VST´s you should also use some of the more specialised VSt´s that operate like true virtual instument simulations

But then i never realy use VST´s with my audia styles, i only use them as solo voices to play on top of those styles..


Edited by Bachus (12/04/13 07:57 AM)
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#377655 - 12/10/13 02:47 AM Re: The open arrangers [Re: Bachus]
DAN.2000 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 1134
Loc: FRANCE
WAAAAWWWWW I have added the VST support in vArranger. It is amazing. Like openning the door to the world smile
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Dan
https://www.varranger.com

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