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#374344 - 11/06/13 06:37 AM Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others
Hal2001 Offline
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Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 154
Loc: U.S.
Hi arranger owners. I have been postponing a Tyros or other arranger purchases for over 3 years because I could never find an arranger that had the best of what is available piecemeal across the major brands, but am now closer than ever to ordering (even pre-ordering) the T5 now that 76 keys are available. One other thing that was a concern for me in the past about Tyros was the plasticky key quality. I never played a Tyros but saw a non-working Tyros in a Guitar Center and thought the keys felt toy-like. I had some trials with the Korg Pa3x 76 and really liked the key quality and drum sounds but also admire Yamaha articulated sound quality. Can you players please tell me what are the advantages and disadvantages of the Tyros keys vs other arranger keys that seem more piano-like (what I'm more familiar with), Almost all demos I see of the T show it being used more like a piano than a synth so I wonder how comfortable it feels playing piano-style on these keys. P.S. Does anyone know if the Audya keys construction are more similar to the pa3x and, if they're different, how are they different? Thanks much. Like many of you, probably, I wish I could take the strengths of each manufacturer and put them together in the ultimate arranger. Thanks Hal
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#374347 - 11/06/13 07:35 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
As far as I know, the Tyros5 uses the same great feeling semi-weighted FSX keyboard action, with velocity sensitivity and aftertouch, as Tyros2/3/4,

This FSX action was especially developed and used to provide better control of Yamaha's new SA/SA2 sounds.

The original Tyros did not have this FSX action; it was first introduced on the Tyros2.

The FSX action is also used on Yamaha's 61 and 76 key versions of the Motif XF, and the earlier Motif XS.

I believe you will find the Yamaha action comparable to what is used on the Korg PA3X.

The best action, in my opinion, for playing piano sounds, is an 88-note graded hammer weighted action keyboard, but for arranger playing purposes, the semi-weighted action works fine, and is better suited for playing the instrument's other sounds (strings, organ, brass, guitar etc.) than the weighted version.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374359 - 11/06/13 10:48 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
According to this



The Tyros action has changed several times, with only the T4 and T5 having the newer action. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, though..?

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#374362 - 11/06/13 11:16 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Diki]
Hal2001 Offline
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Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 154
Loc: U.S.
Thank you Ian and Diki for your very helpful information. Now I can rationalize to myself that, even though the key construction quality is not as solid as I'd personally prefer, I will be getting some very special Yamaha sounds and effects via the key action that is part of that design.
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#374364 - 11/06/13 11:57 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
You are reading it right, Diki, as that's what the chart shows, however, that 3rd line appears to be incorrect.

From Yamaha sites:

"Articulation Element Modeling (AEM) is the technology for simulating this characteristic of instruments. During performance, the most appropriate sound samples are selected in sequence in real time, from huge quantities of sampled data. They are smoothly joined and sounded - as would naturally occur on an actual acoustic instrument.

AWM is Yamaha's original system for effectively using sampled waveforms in synthesizers and tone generators. The strength of AWM synthesis lies not only in its extraordinary ability to "shape" and control the sound of the samples with a comprehensive system of envelope generators, filters, key scaling parameters, modulation, and more. AWM voices can have from 1 to 4 AWM elements. Each AWM element can use a preset wave or a sampled waveform. The ability to combine AWM elements means that you can, for example, combine separate samples for the attack and sustain portions of an instrument's sound, with independent control over each."

FSX is the designation given to a type of semi-weighted keyboard action used on Tyros2/3/4 and Motif XF/XS.

All the above arranger models use AWM as a sound source.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374377 - 11/06/13 07:49 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I thought something looked iffy... But I thought the new action only appeared in the T3?

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#374380 - 11/06/13 09:04 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Yep, it started on Tyros2 ...follow link below, and click on Specs.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-i...os2/?mode=model

It was initially designed specifically for the Tyros2's new SA Voices, although the Combo Division, at that time, also wanted (and got) it for their Motif line.

As far as I know, the first Tyros was not made in Japan (it was made in Indo-China, I believe), and the keyboard action, although pretty good (velocity and aftertouch), was not quite in the same league as the FSX design...the latter had a deeper throw, a tad more resistance, and improved aftertouch response.

Tyros2/3/4, were all made in Japan, and I expect that's where Tyros5 will be manufactured.

I asked why the original Tyros's keyboard wasn't kept and used in the higher end of the PSR line, but no one offered any reason, so it must have been a cost issue, probably to keep price competitive with other brands, but that's just a guess.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374404 - 11/07/13 09:22 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Would you care to elaborate on why a better action would be needed for SA voices in the Tyros? Especially given that SA voices are in current TOTL PSR's, with no improvement in the action for them...

Thing is, examine any Yamaha keyboard in the same price range as the PSR S950, why do they get decent actions and ONLY the PSR gets the BOTL action? I'm afraid you can't persuade me that a modern Yamaha WS is any less complicated than an arranger. So how does the Combo manage to afford the decent action and the PSR doesn't?

Other than, maybe, pure profit?

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#374412 - 11/07/13 10:54 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Elaborate? 'Fraid not.

I just play them, I don't need to explain them.

Nowadays, I just read the specs like you and everyone else.

Most importantly, all I need to know is that the Tyros4 has that great FSX action, was made in Japan, is bought and paid for, and is sitting here on my keyboard stand, lights ablinkin'.

Just one of the many perks of being retired.

Do some of your serious investigating and when and if you find out, put it in your little handy dandy Dikipedia folder for future reference.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374419 - 11/07/13 01:24 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: ianmcnll]
Diki Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll

It was initially designed specifically for the Tyros2's new SA Voices, although the Combo Division, at that time, also wanted (and got) it for their Motif line.


That's the line got me curious, Ian... you said it, not me.

What about the SA voices NEEDED a better action?

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#374427 - 11/07/13 02:17 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll

It was initially designed specifically for the Tyros2's new SA Voices, although the Combo Division, at that time, also wanted (and got) it for their Motif line.


That's the line got me curious, Ian... you said it, not me.

What about the SA voices NEEDED a better action?


Nothing wrong with being curious, Diki.

Let's just say both combo and arranger divisions used similar forms of articulation so sharing the same keybed was a natural.

As I said above, I have no idea why it remains exclusive on TOTL (for synths as well) only, other than to say it must have to with cost, but it does makes perfect sense for the top line instruments to have the best action available.

Look at it from your perspective....what prevented Roland from putting the keyboard action from the G-70 into the BK-9?

The action was already fully developed and proved, R&D was probably already covered, but yet, they didn't use the best they had in the BK-9, which is now their top arranger, which features many SuperNatural sounds that would definitely benefit from a higher quality action with aftertouch.

I'm not a product developer, not even of the armchair variety, but I would hazard a guess and say the two situations would be related to cost and profit.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374429 - 11/07/13 02:39 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Nick G Offline
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Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 1042
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
the "cheap" keybed on the PSR line cant be a cost saving exercise because even the cheap MOX has a decent keybed. its not the exact same as the FSX n the Tyros/Motif Line but its still far better than the PSR keybed.

And... the MOX is a CHEAPER keyboard to buy brand new than a PSR S950.. go figure???
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#374433 - 11/07/13 03:22 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
More importantly, I hope the OP has found something in this thread to help him decide what TOTL arranger to get.

As far as trying to analyze how and why these companies do things the way they do, we can only guess, but I suspect "profit" is involved somewhere along the line.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374436 - 11/07/13 03:51 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
travlin'easy Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14575
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
It's not that SA voices need a different action, it's just a different playing technique that is required to make them do those special things they were designed for. You can find this information by merely pressing the information button for those specific voices.

Gary cool
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#374470 - 11/08/13 08:20 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: ianmcnll]
Hal2001 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 154
Loc: U.S.
Thanks Gary and Ian. In answer to your question, I just now pre-ordered the Tyros 5 76 version. I've been putting off an arranger purchase for over 3 years, always putting it off waiting for the next model of Yammy, Korg, Audya, Roland to come out, and then ending up with no arranger cause I couldn't make up my mind for sure. I hope I'll be happy with the new Tyros. By the way, what does OP stand for? I expect to check out this forum more often now. Thanks, Hal
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Korg Kronos 88 and Genos, Logic Pro, Omnisphere

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#374472 - 11/08/13 08:32 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40923
Originally Posted By: Hal2001
By the way, what does OP stand for?


original poster


Edited by Dnj (11/08/13 08:35 AM)

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#374475 - 11/08/13 08:34 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Hal,

"OP" stands for Original Poster..."you" in this case.

It's always a bit of a dilemma when trying to decide just when exactly to take the plunge, always a bit nervous the next model will blow away the one we just bought.

Thankfully, Yamaha's carefully planned steps (some call them baby steps...how cute!) from one model to the next aren't so severe to make the last model suddenly out of date.

I have a Tyros4, and despite the great new features on the Tyros5, I don't feel the need to upgrade...maybe when the Tyros6 or Tyros7 rolls around.

Congrats on your choice...time will pass very slowly from now on...ha ha!

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374476 - 11/08/13 08:36 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: ianmcnll]
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40923
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Hal,

"OP" stands for Original Poster..."you" in this case.

It's always a bit of a dilemma when trying to decide just when exactly to take the plunge, always a bit nervous the next model will blow away the one we just bought.

Thankfully, Yamaha's carefully planned steps (some call them baby steps...how cute!) from one model to the next aren't so severe to make the last model suddenly out of date.

I have a Tyros4, and despite the great new features on the Tyros5, I don't feel the need to upgrade...maybe when the Tyros6 or Tyros7 rolls around.

Congrats on your choice...time will pass very slowly from now on...ha ha!

Ian



Ian I think you should wait till the T5 is released and demoed before you decide,....you might switch wink ........wait and see. cool2


Edited by Dnj (11/08/13 08:37 AM)

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#374478 - 11/08/13 08:42 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Nope, no switching, Donny...the Tyros4 will do me for quite a long time. I'm still in the "honeymoon stage" with it.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374480 - 11/08/13 08:49 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: ianmcnll]
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40923
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Nope, no switching, Donny...the Tyros4 will do me for quite a long time. I'm still in the "honeymoon stage" with it.

Ian


we'll see.......... rotfl

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#374484 - 11/08/13 08:56 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Getting the Tyros4 was a big decision at the time, Donny, considering my finances, and retirement looming ahead, and I am glad I took the plunge and went for the Tyros4 instead of the S910 or something else.

There comes a time to get off the "buying the latest" merry-go-round and spending more time digging in to the keyboard, and, of course, more time with improving my playing.

You can rest assured I won't be buying anything new...at least another arranger, in any case.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374490 - 11/08/13 09:50 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: ianmcnll]
Marcus Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/12
Posts: 210
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
As far as I know, the Tyros5 uses the same great feeling semi-weighted FSX keyboard action, with velocity sensitivity and aftertouch, as Tyros2/3/4,

This FSX action was especially developed and used to provide better control of Yamaha's new SA/SA2 sounds.

The original Tyros did not have this FSX action; it was first introduced on the Tyros2.

The FSX action is also used on Yamaha's 61 and 76 key versions of the Motif XF, and the earlier Motif XS.

I believe you will find the Yamaha action comparable to what is used on the Korg PA3X.

The best action, in my opinion, for playing piano sounds, is an 88-note graded hammer weighted action keyboard, but for arranger playing purposes, the semi-weighted action works fine, and is better suited for playing the instrument's other sounds (strings, organ, brass, guitar etc.) than the weighted version.

Ian


Hi Ian

I always thought that the Tyros FSX keyboard is not semi-weighted keys. I actually tried to find this out for sure, but not much information in internet searches.

My local music store rep was surprised to hear about the 76 note version Tyros 5, but agreed with me that the current Tyros 4 or 3 models are not semi- weighted keys.

My understanding is a keyboard bed and action in- between an actual piano and synth action. It would have weight to the keys like a piano, but somewhere in between. I remember trying out a 76 note midi controller keyboard with semi-weighted keys which I would find perfect for piano, but were a lot closer to an actual piano action.

I might still be incorrect, but maybe someone knows for sure. I do like the FSX action, coming from an organist background, and work very well for after touch control.

For me I would certainly go for the 76 note FSX version for home, and maybe in the future a 61 note version for gigging and backup.

Regards, Marcus
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#374491 - 11/08/13 09:52 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: ianmcnll]
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 40923
Originally Posted By: ianmcnll
Getting the Tyros4 was a big decision at the time, Donny, considering my finances, and retirement looming ahead, and I am glad I took the plunge and went for the Tyros4 instead of the S910 or something else.

There comes a time to get off the "buying the latest" merry-go-round and spending more time digging in to the keyboard, and, of course, more time with improving my playing.

You can rest assured I won't be buying anything new...at least another arranger, in any case.

Ian



I can understand if finances are involved these KBs arent cheap by any means.....but sometimes the Latest & Greatest gets the best of us and wheeling and dealing & juggling makes it happen even if its two years from now....off to a gig now.....keep the fun going!! wink

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#374497 - 11/08/13 10:39 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Marcus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Marcus



Hi Ian

I always thought that the Tyros FSX keyboard is not semi-weighted keys. I actually tried to find this out for sure, but not much information in internet searches.

My local music store rep was surprised to hear about the 76 note version Tyros 5, but agreed with me that the current Tyros 4 or 3 models are not semi- weighted keys.



It's really hard to say, Marcus...I've always regarded Yamaha's FSX keybeds as semi-weighted, although Yamaha just calls it "FSX".

The FSX feels very much like the action in DX-7, DX-7II, DX-5 etc. so I tend to refer to it as such, as the latter were often called semi-weighted by Yamaha.

I really liked the DX-7, and the related synths, style action.

Whatever we call it, I find the FSX works very well for acoustic and electric piano (although I still prefer weighted 88's for solo piano work) and is a nice happy medium for covering all the sounds present on the Tyros.

I come from a piano and organ background, and I'm very pleased with the way the Tyros4 feels under my fingers.

I'm tickled to hear you're going for the new one...it's always a great joy buying a new instrument. Congratulations.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374499 - 11/08/13 10:54 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
124 Offline
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Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2075
Originally Posted By: Hal2001
Thanks Gary and Ian. In answer to your question, I just now pre-ordered the Tyros 5 76 version. I've been putting off an arranger purchase for over 3 years, always putting it off waiting for the next model of Yammy, Korg, Audya, Roland to come out, and then ending up with no arranger cause I couldn't make up my mind for sure. I hope I'll be happy with the new Tyros. By the way, what does OP stand for? I expect to check out this forum more often now. Thanks, Hal

HaHa! You sound a lot like me in waffling over the next big buy. I missed the boat on the Pa3X thinking that I'd hold on as the Pa900 was on the horizon. That didn't quite do it for me, and now it won't be too long before a Pa4X comes along. I must be some sort of masochist. confused2 smile

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#374500 - 11/08/13 10:54 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Dnj]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Dnj



I can understand if finances are involved these KBs arent cheap by any means.....but sometimes the Latest & Greatest gets the best of us and wheeling and dealing & juggling makes it happen even if its two years from now....off to a gig now.....keep the fun going!! wink


At the time, finances were very involved, but I was able to sell my house quickly, and some very kind people helped me through a rough spell until it did (you know who you are...thank you), and then I took the chance and invested in the Tyros4. Now that I'm on a fixed income, and on a self-imposed gigging sabbatical, it appears I made the right decision.
I'm in the process of working on some very interesting projects for next spring, and I'm pretty sure the Tyros4 will handle anything coming up.

At that time, my pension will also change for the better...more loot! Yippee!

If I do get another keyboard, again, depending on what develops, it will quite likely be a programmable synthesizer (I've been very interested in Casio's 88-note PX5S) to use in conjunction with the T4.

But, a Tyros5 is not in my plans, regardless.

You probably will go for the next PSR-S series? They seem to work best for you, and give you the best bang for the buck.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374573 - 11/09/13 09:31 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I think the terms weighted, semi-weighted, synth weighted etc., are VERY loosely thrown around. And quite often engender an argument that bears no basis in fact. I am pretty sure that the 'weight' to press a key down between a PSR and an FSX varies so little, it would be hard to tell with a blindfold...

There are four or five factors in the 'feel' of a key. Yes, the mass of the key itself (highest in real piano keys), the strength of the spring, the tightness of the hinge (how much play there is) and the feel of the key as it comes to the end of its travel. And maybe the speed of return of the key to its resting state.

While some think weight alone is the factor they can perceive when playing, to be honest, for me, I think the spring rate and the 'stop' are very discernible, but the accuracy of the hinge, its tightness (lack of play) is what I tend to feel the most when I'm judging 'quality'.

In this regard, the sort of 'wobbly' feel from the PSR's is what puts me off the most. Play a real piano, a B3, any decent synth, and that 'wobble' is almost entirely absent. There's a LOT more going on than simple weight...

But Ian... I'm pretty sure the action from my G70, which was pretty heavy just by itself, would mean a heavier case to support it, and then the BK's weight balloons. Which given how aging and weak the arranger playing demographic appears to be (strange how the aging WS playing demographic seems much stronger!), would seem to be the kiss of death to sales. Not to mention, the G70's action, being longer, means a bigger case there too.

I think the thing which peeves me most about Yamaha's decision to remain with the sub-par PSR action is the decision to put a MUCH better one in WS's costing MUCH less. Yes, obviously, you don't necessarily get the TOTL action in the MOTL keyboard. But, OTOH, you shouldn't really put the BOTL action in the MOTL either!

It's a question of respect... Do Yamaha consider their PSR customers either incapable of needing as good an action action than their WS playing brothers do, or do they consider them so gullible that tossing them this awful apology of an action won't be noticed? Or do they simply rely on the rabid defensiveness of Yamaha users to refuse to make any honest criticism of their purchase to protect them from any comparison when making this decision?

I am convinced that if Yamaha PSR users actually made a fuss, and demanded an action the equivalent of similar priced Yamaha WS's, it would be on next year's model. But keep telling the world how HAPPY you are being shafted like this, what is Yamaha's incentive..?

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#374580 - 11/09/13 10:19 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki



But Ian... I'm pretty sure the action from my G70, which was pretty heavy just by itself, would mean a heavier case to support it, and then the BK's weight balloons. Which given how aging and weak the arranger playing demographic appears to be (strange how the aging WS playing demographic seems much stronger!), would seem to be the kiss of death to sales. Not to mention, the G70's action, being longer, means a bigger case there too.



Well, since Roland has now relented and finally covered the geriatric set, meaning the over 50, which includes you, perhaps a real G-70 replacement is in order...even if the BK-9 "ballooned" up to 30 lbs with the addition of the G-70's action (and perhaps screen as well), it still probably would only weigh as much as a PA3X 76 or a Tyros5-76 (approx 32 lbs), and we know most of Yamaha and Korg arranger buyers/users are over 50, and how successful these products are for their respective companies.

Personally, I think Roland dropped the high end arranger ball just when a real flagship model might have instilled more buyer confidence in the company.

As you say, it's a question of respect...so, do Roland consider their now top range backing keyboard customers either incapable of needing as good an action action that was highly loved (and constantly boasted about) by their G-70 playing brothers? Or, do they consider them so gullible that tossing them this excuse of a high end action won't be noticed?

Or do they simply rely on the rabid defensiveness of Roland users to refuse to make any honest criticism (top line with no aftertouch? Come on!) of their purchase to protect them from any comparison when making this decision?

Perhaps that is just one of the reasons behind the Italian Division being sacked. Probably not, but it was bound to have some kind of influence.

Another thing to consider...Roland appears to take the initiative and introduces a 76 note very light weight, relatively cheap arranger that has been moaned and cried for by some individuals on SZ, ever since G-70 was dropped, and yet, when the BK-9's release is posted, interest in the instrument barely raises a blip on the interest/buying scale compared to the overwhelming response given to Yamaha's Tyros5-76, which, strangely enough, is far more expensive and weighs considerably more.

Rather curious, eh?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374584 - 11/09/13 10:51 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Other than no aftertouch (which I hardly use on my G70), this 'excuse' of an action is easily as good as the T5's, at nearly $3000 more, Ian.

Still far too few recognize that the BK-9 is the successor to the E60, NOT the G70. Number or Parts is the same, action quality is the same, price is about the same. A bit more to account for the ten faders missing from the E60. And the action on the E60 had no aftertouch either, along with the S950. Oh, and neither the S950 or the BK-9 have a touch screen.

Roland have yet to come out with a TOTL arranger, and given today's iffy market, probably not a bad idea. Personally, I don't need Ford to make a GT car just so they have 'credibility' for a family saloon..! If that family saloon is the best in class, who CARES if they make a supercar? LOL Likewise, if Roland don't yet feel it is the time to make a TOTL arranger, that has ZERO impact on whether the MOTL model is competitive or not.

You can get a BK-9 at only a couple of hundred bucks more than a PSR S950. THAT is its competition, and as such, the BK stacks up VERY well. 76 high quality action vs. a spongy BOTL 61. Audio loops that, well, loop! Punchy, live sounding drums without a proprietary system that covers less than 10% of the total ROM (and that you can easily edit). A Hammond to die for, a chord sequencer, some great new SA type sounds...

Shop around, you can get a BK-9 at LEAST $2000 less than a T5. The ONLY fair comparison to make with Yamaha is the S950. Now tell me how bad it is, Ian! You are going to have to actually include some real facts before you can get a rise out of me, Ian!

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#374586 - 11/09/13 10:57 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I wonder, by the way, if Brooster is reading this... If you want an example of someone using offshoring to bolster an untenable position, here it is. You won't find anyone as HAPPY about this issue when Yamaha moved production to China as you do here...

TBH, if you are looking for petty 'trashing' of something simply due to spite, look no further.

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#374588 - 11/09/13 11:06 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Given today's iffy market? That certainly hasn't seemed to affect Yamaha and Korg...they are quite happy developing and regularly churning out great selling TOTL models, and Korg is allegedly a smaller company than Roland.

And please, no comparison to the Tyros FSX Diki...the BK-9 has no aftertouch, a very serious omission considering Roland calls it "the new flagship instrument in the acclaimed BK series"

Seems to be short of at least one major flag.

Nice try, anyway.

And I really do find it strange, that with all the posted alleged need for a very lightweight, cheap, 76-note arranger, the amount of BK-9 interest was rather lame (despite your promotional efforts)...and yet, the introduction of an instrument with a much higher price and more weight sets off the forum like crazy.

As I said, strange eh?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374616 - 11/09/13 01:56 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
It's the flagship, for sure. But pricewise and featurewise, it is still a MOTL arranger. If you have no TOTL, the MOTL becomes the flagship... BTW, notice that I mentioned the lack of aftertouch (speed reading again?)?

Not strange at all, Ian, BTW about the Yamaha feeding frenzy. Yamaha users always seem to lose their minds when anything new comes out, the rest aren't so desperate to change... LOL

Compare apples to apples, the BK-9 is a very competitive product at its price point. If you want to elevate it to be the T5's competition, well, you MIGHT consider that nearly $3000 less entitles it to missing a few features!

And if you are SO swayed by advertising hyperbole that merely CALLING it a 'flagship' makes it worth comparing to an arranger $3000 more, you might need to consider your susceptibility to ad copy! Or, I have some property joining Brooklyn and Manhattan you might be interested in!

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#374621 - 11/09/13 02:36 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki


And if you are SO swayed by advertising hyperbole that merely CALLING it a 'flagship' makes it worth comparing to an arranger $3000 more, you might need to consider your susceptibility to ad copy! Or, I have some property joining Brooklyn and Manhattan you might be interested in!


Never swayed by ad copy, but always entertained.

Besides, I'm only quoting Roland's hype...they seem to believe it is a flagship. I certainly do not.

It's not that the Roland bunch are, or are not, desperate for change...they actually don't really have much of a choice...it's MOTL or nuttin'!

Plus, I really was surprised by the lack of interest in the BK-9...I honestly thought there would be more posts about it, and, certainly, more SZ member reviews.

But, you seem happy with it, so, I guess it's not a total failure....AND, you can now say you have a paid up membership in the "lighter is better bunch".

If I buy anything, it will be a fully programmable synthesizer with an 88 note weighted hammer action keyboard. The Casio PX5S is a prime candidate...the price is very good and it is very lightweight (you finally understand how important that is), especially for an 88.

Of course, purchasing will depend on my needs next year, so, lots of time.

Meanwhile, it's fun watching from the bleachers this time around.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374624 - 11/09/13 02:56 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9227
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
It is not the keybed that adds to the weight on the G70..It is the metal chasis...

As an example when I updated the MediaStation with the lower metal chasis...empty it weighed about 20 pounds..the same in plastic would be about 3 pounds..tops smile

I would rather have a heavier metal built keyboard that I know will hold up..rather than the cheap plastic construction..

Roland did use Aluminum construction in the D70 days, and it was lighter than the G70 by 15 pounds...

I would think aluminum would be durable and well constructed..

BTW: My favorite all time keybeds are the beds I own..The MediaStation and the G70, are still the best semi weighted keybeds.. wink
I am spoiled, and can never be happy with the PSR, Juno and PA beds..The PA900 is an okay keybed as are the Tyros and PAx..but not as playable as the MS and G70...in my opinion grin
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#374627 - 11/09/13 03:17 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I have pulled a few G70 actions in my time (fixing other people's spills, mostly, or broken keys) and I can assure you that the G70 action ALONE is quite up there in weight. Each key has a metal weight, is built of quite stout plastic, and has a fairly substantial frame supporting the whole thing. In fact, it is so heavy, it really NEEDS the metal casing just to stop it from flexing slightly. Its keys are also longer than most synth type keybeds, so would need a deeper case to leave room for the electronics boards.

The thing is, have a PSR S950, a BK-9 and a G70 next to each other (which I have done) and then start pressing keys slowly, and you realize that the 'weight' feels very similar. However, the inertia is different when you hit the note quickly, and the rebound feel, stop feel and side to side wobble is noticeably better on the Roland actions, and the PSR is simply 'spongy'.

Please, by the way, don't get confused about this being a 'Yamaha vs. Roland' issue. Yamaha make EXCELLENT actions for their MOTL priced WS's, even better ones for their TOTL arrangers and WS's. Nobody is putting Yamaha down. Only the MOTL PSR's, which God only knows why Yamaha feel this doesn't deserve as good a keybed on it as a LESSER priced Yamaha WS.

No-one, to my mind, has yet come up with a good reason for Yamaha to do this...

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#374634 - 11/09/13 04:20 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
As I said, Fran...it's too bad Roland didn't put the G-70's action in the Bk-9...plus add the touchscreen.

They'd be a whole lot closer to making another decent TOTL arranger, and definitely be in league with Tyros5-76 and PA3Xpro76, and with a lot more manageable weight...probably be only 30-35 lbs tops.

You'd then have a very competitive keyboard action, along with the touchscreen you guys love so much...a winner all around!

The BK-9 is a nice little board, but hardly a real successor to the great G-70, and as Diki says, it's only a MOTL not TOTL as the Roland hype implies.

I also believe the OP's question has been answered quite well, according to him...he's already pre-ordered a Tyros5-76.

Let's just be happy for Hal.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374635 - 11/09/13 04:25 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14575
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Diki,

The difference is in the triggering device - it's a totally different mechanism. While I've never had a G70 apart, I did get a glimpse inside the G800, and I suspect that they use the same or similar type of triggering device. Big difference between the two machines in that respect. And, I'm really not sure which is more effective, electronically. While key velocity triggers the volume played, there are other factors such as after touch, and SA voice effect triggers that apply to Yamaha's key system. It's a fairly complex system, and I for one, don't have the answers for why any manufacturer uses the systems they use.

Cheers,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#374638 - 11/09/13 04:53 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: travlin'easy]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: travlin'easy

While key velocity triggers the volume played, there are other factors such as after touch, and SA voice effect triggers that apply to Yamaha's key system. It's a fairly complex system, and I for one, don't have the answers for why any manufacturer uses the systems they use.

Cheers,

Gary cool


Not only that Gary, but you, Joe and Donny seem to be very comfortable with the PSR action, and I suspect if it was as bad as being implied, I doubt very much if you pros would put up with it.

Considering that the PSR has 61 keys, I doubt very much if it's biggest and most persistant critics would even purchase one.

I must say, I found the PSR keys very pleasant to play, and was seriously considering an S910 (or maybe S950) before I got a break and was able to afford the Tyros4.

The PSR has a fine velocity response, and yes, the throw is shallower than some others, but the clincher for me was that you could turn the volume up to 3/4, pick a piano sound, press a key slowly enough, and actually get no sound...the same as an acoustic piano key.

Plus, as you have learned with your 3K's...it's pretty darn reliable as well.

Also, you, Joe and Donny all have different playing styles, yet it works well for all three of you.

Not bad, eh? wink

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374639 - 11/09/13 05:03 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14575
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I never had a problem with any keyboard's keys, but I can't handle fully or semi weighted keys at all, mainly because after a couple hours my fingers and hands begin aching and cramping. The following day I have to soak my hands in hot water to work out the aches and pains.

Joe plays a Yamaha Baby Grand all the time, and he loves those S-950 keys. I've heard Joe playing the piano and he is absolutely great.

Everyone has their preferences, and that's the way it should be. Some like chocolate, some like vanilla. Some like both!;)

Cheers,

Gary cool


Edited by travlin'easy (11/09/13 05:04 PM)
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#374643 - 11/09/13 06:23 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
It's easy to stay devoted to a particular action when one hasn't got any option at all. Also, it's telling that those most 'devoted' to the PSR action admit they come to it from either an accordion background, or simply admit they can't play their way out of a paper bag!

If you look back, and try to count the number of different reviews of the PSR action here, you find that there are many, many people who have rated it very poor.

Gary, there is absolutely NOTHING in the action that has got anything whatsoever to do with triggering SA type voices. You can trigger them via MIDI from any external keyboard with no change whatsoever in how they work (with the obvious and unrelated exception of the SA trigger buttons, which are NOT the action itself). A keyboard sends but a few bits of information... How hard was the key hit, which key was it, when did you let it off, and what (if any) after touch did you apply during the note on.

ALL keyboards send the exact same information. Don't read anything more into Ian's misquoted ad copy.

And Ian... If Roland had put the G70's action in some TOTL $3500+ arranger, it would already be BETTER than the T5, not equivalent..! And, according to you, it doesn't NEED a touch screen. But if it did, again it would be BETTER.

About the only thing 'sad' about Roland not having a high end expensive Roland arranger at the moment is that poor Ian has to make his taunts about an arranger that costs at least $2500 less than what he currently uses, and can't bring himself to talk about comparing it to the only Yamaha arranger in its actual price range.

As you can see, it's driving him crazy!

And, as of yet, still not ONE explanation as to why Yamaha think their MOTL WS's need a decent action, but the arranger division doesn't. Crickets chirping on that one...

Better keep the focus on the BK-9, eh? LOL

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#374647 - 11/09/13 06:39 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14575
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Diki, they are not buttons - take a look at the pictorial diagrams of the system and you'll see what I'm talking about. The triggering device is a series of PC strips that is fired by the velocity of the carbon impregnated rubber as it strikes the PC board beneath the keys. It's a different ballgame. I've had several apart over the years, and spent some time repairing them for friends.

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#374648 - 11/09/13 07:21 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada



Originally Posted By: Diki


And Ian... If Roland had put the G70's action in some TOTL $3500+ arranger, it would already be BETTER than the T5, not equivalent..! And, according to you, it doesn't NEED a touch screen. But if it did, again it would be BETTER.



Nothing mis-quoted...read and laugh like I did..."flagship"???? Talk about hype...too funny!

http://www.roland.com/products/en/BK-9/

Probably, if you keep reading the BK-9 hype enough, you might even convince yourself that it's TOTL.

I'm certainly not comparing Roland's "flagship" BK-9 with the more powerful and better sounding TOTL Tyros models...I'm simply comparing it to the last ROLAND flagship. Duh!

Roland's last flagship, the G-70, had a large touchscreen and a fairly decent 76 note keyboard with aftertouch...now, their so-called "Flagship" (see above ad) has two less than ideal non-touch B&W (160 X 160 Pixels) screens, a lesser quality 76 note non-aftertouch keyboard, and the whole caboodle is a good indication of Roland's slide down the scale to only making MOTL (but calling them TOTL) arrangers.

Fran is far wiser than you...he is being realistic.

You aren't.

Quit while you're behind.

Ian

PS...I take Gary, Donny and Joe at their word regarding the PSR. They are respected professional musicians and entertainers, and in the business as long as, or longer, than you.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374649 - 11/09/13 07:25 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9227
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
"Flagship" means ..current best offering..
_________________________
www.francarango.com



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#374654 - 11/09/13 08:06 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Fran Carango]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Fran Carango
"Flagship" means ..current best offering..


I agree Fran, but I feel Roland's present flagship, or best offering, if you will, isn't in the same category as the G-70, the former flagship and best offering.

I think, although they've added some great little features to the BK-9 that weren't on the G-70, they also took away the very things that put the G-70 in league of it's own, at the time.

Now Korg and Yamaha both have 76-note TOTL arrangers, and Roland has a 76-note MOTL as it's best offering.

I just think it's sad to see Roland drop the ball, and not make any TOTL for quite some time, and then return with a very good instrument, but not a great one like the G-70.

Yamaha and Korg seem to have no problem developing and successfully marketing flagship arrangers.

Maybe Roland's R&D funds weren't substantial enough to develop a true successor to the G-70 at that present time?

That why I referred to it as being "sad". I think it's a loss to anyone wanting a G-70 equivalent in a new model, with all the cool new features like the Chord Sequencer, for instance, but still keeping the features you liked most like the large touch screen and the same high quality aftertouch equipped keyboard.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374660 - 11/10/13 03:39 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4906
Loc: English Riviera, UK
The answer is simple, arrangers have always been designed primarily for the home market (Pro users are miniscule in comparison) who just want to sit down and play, and so are not familiar with pro keyboards and their actions.
Better keybeds dont sell keyboards in the home market only features, sounds, styles, easy play (Press a button and everything is done for you) and price, so there is no point in the manufacture spending extra on them.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#374662 - 11/10/13 04:58 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: abacus]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: abacus
The answer is simple, arrangers have always been designed primarily for the home market (Pro users are miniscule in comparison) who just want to sit down and play, and so are not familiar with pro keyboards and their actions.
Better keybeds dont sell keyboards in the home market only features, sounds, styles, easy play (Press a button and everything is done for you) and price, so there is no point in the manufacture spending extra on them.

Bill


You could be right, Billy...I have always maintained that arrangers (keyboards with auto-accompaniment) were firstmost designed to be "home keyboards", like, for example, my Tyros4, the PA3X, the Audya, the BK-9 (& G-70), and, of course, your little Abacus.

Initially designed, as you say, for home players, who, also as you say, "just want to sit down and play", it turns out that some "pros" (you know, those people who play for profit) are clever enough to find a perfect use for them on stage and/or in the nite-clubs (as well as Nursing Homes and Assisted Living centers).

Nothing wrong with that, as they say (whoever "they" are?).

Since my recent retirement from Yamaha, and my self-imposed gig sabbatical (until early next year), I've become one of dem dere "home players" meself!

And, I am thoroughly enjoying it!

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374805 - 11/11/13 10:40 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Bill... The action that almost everybody first learns on and plays is the piano. And the number of THOSE in the hands of non-pro players FAR outnumbers those in pro hands. And a better built action is hard to find! So, if you think about it, MOST keyboard players started out at least on something better than what they are likely on now...

Thing is, you are hard pressed to find ANY keyboard short of the cheapest 'toy' bracket arrangers and play keyboards with as bad an action as the PSR S950. Yamaha's workstations have a MUCH better one, at a MUCH lower price. In fact, I cannot honestly think of a single keyboard out there within $1000 of the S950's price with even as bad a one. Other than the cheaper PSR's, of course.

Look at it this way... were the S950's action as good as the more dedicated Yamaha apologists would have you believe, how do you explain that Yamaha don't inflict (whoops! I meant 'use') it on any other type of keyboard they make..?

Perhaps on their other lines, they think that there aren't enough cheerleaders to allow them to get away with such an obvious cheapskate move solely in the name of profit?

And Gary... the 'buttons' reference was to the SA trigger buttons, NOT the action at all. Having disassembled many actions in my time, basically most of them use the same contact strip method. Nothing different there.

And Ian... there's only ONE person here making any noise about the BK-9 being a 'flagship'. From it's first announcement, I have repeatedly said the BK-9 is a MOTL offering, and have no more interest in Roland's advertising hype as you do. Less, apparently, given your apparent insistence on bringing it up all the time when you don't want the embarrassment of having it compared to the S950, which IS its Yamaha equivalent.

As you may have gleaned from my posts about it, despite being a good $1500 less than the G70, I have found this arranger so far advanced over the G70 that it is becoming my goto keyboard for solo and duo stuff. So, there you have it. $1500 less, 25 lbs lighter, and BETTER than the old flagship.

If only Yamaha came out with something like that!

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#374807 - 11/11/13 10:56 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki

As you may have gleaned from my posts about it, despite being a good $1500 less than the G70, I have found this arranger so far advanced over the G70 that it is becoming my goto keyboard for solo and duo stuff. So, there you have it. $1500 less, 25 lbs lighter, and BETTER than the old flagship.


This BK-9 line sounds like you are saying it more for your own benefit than mine.

You certainly haven't convinced me, and not Fran either, but maybe if you say it enough, it will help you at least.

Nice try.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374813 - 11/11/13 11:43 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Just to add Diki, as long as you are chuffed with your little BK-9, that's all that really matters.

It is a fine instrument in it's own right, and I am glad it works for your purposes.

I won't tease you about it anymore.

Play and be happy.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374823 - 11/11/13 12:24 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I don't need convincing. It sits in front of me as I write this...

I merely keep repeating this while you continue to try to divert attention away from an S950/BK-9 comparison, and continue to try to force it to be compared to the T5, $2500 more...

How about simply giving up with that absurdity, and stick to the facts? Especially in light of the fact you haven't even SEEN or heard one?

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#374825 - 11/11/13 12:35 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Diki,

I haven't seen a BK-9 in the flesh...local store isn't planning on bringing one in...even up on the mainland there is no such animal as yet at least.

I hope it doesn't become another Yeti in the stores here like the G-70...well, I did have a chance to play the G-70 for a few weeks several years ago.

Very nice...that's why I thought the BK-9 could benefit from it's action...it was pretty darn good...I can see why you and Fran like it.

The G-70's Touchscreen wasn't my cup of tea, but I probably could get used to it...same as the pitch bend/mod paddle (or lever) a bit similar to what was on the Jupiter 8 I owned at the time.

But, thankfully my Tyros4 and the new Tyros5 don't use either.

And, even more thankfully, the OP, Hal was able to make a decision regarding the Tyros5.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374829 - 11/11/13 12:42 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I guess I will have to resign myself to having a second class action, merely as good as the T4's... LOL

For all the fuss made about aftertouch, I find I hardly ever use it. I find that programming a delayed vibrato into the voice itself works well, and then I don't have the accidental triggering of it by generally strong playing (my LH is basically as strong as my RH). Roland's lost the ability to modulate LFO speed by aftertouch with the G1000, and since then, I have made little use of it.

So, other than aftertouch, I ALREADY have an action easily the equal of the T4's, only at $2500 less. Not too shabby.

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#374843 - 11/11/13 01:08 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki

For all the fuss made about aftertouch, I find I hardly ever use it. I find that programming a delayed vibrato into the voice itself works well, and then I don't have the accidental triggering of it by generally strong playing (my LH is basically as strong as my RH).


I'm glad the BK-9's action suits you, but until it gets aftertouch, it's still can ONLY be a reasonably nice MOTL action.

And, please no lame excuses about no aftertouch...you have to say that because you don't have it on the BK-9...if it had aftertouch you'd be hooting about it like an old owl.

You made a HUGE fuss about it being on your G-70, and now, all of a sudden it's not important?

Gimme a break.

Then again, if they did decide to put aftertouch on the BK-9's cheaper action, it probably would get triggered accidentally.

Never have that problem with the luxurious and highly responsive FSX...a real pleasure to play, it is.

Not too shabby at all.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374845 - 11/11/13 01:18 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Find a quote, Ian... I have NEVER made a big deal of aftertouch (than to publicly berate Roland for dropping the advanced aftertouch options they used to have on the G1000).

Wait until you actually get to play a BK-9 before you try to make a comparison, Ian. Short of the aftertouch, it is at LEAST as good and responsive. NO, I haven't played a T5. But I HAVE played the latest Motif's which have the identical action. And there isn't a jot of difference in the FEEL of the action.

Personally, having to pay $2500 more than a Roland owner to get an action only as good (feeling) would tick me off, not have me crowing about it.

But keep it up, Ian. I don't get as easy a laugh from most people, who will at least let reality creep in to their posts eventually.

Enjoy your 'superior' arranger, Ian. You paid a good $2500 extra to feel that way...

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#374853 - 11/11/13 01:55 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Don't be silly, Diki...you know you said it, and so do I.

But, if you can get along without that feature, especially after hooting about so much on the G-70, that's wonderful.

Same goes for the lack of the touchscreen, which was a feature on the G-70 you harped about incessantly at every opportunity.

So, if you're satisfied with an instrument missing those two formerly important features...knock yourself out!

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374856 - 11/11/13 02:05 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 14575
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
I have a question - If you are not contemplating the purchase of a particular arranger keyboard, why continue to try to compare one to another? For some strange reason, this just doesn't seem to make sense to me at all. Who in the Hell cares?

Thanks God it's five O'clock somewhere,

Gary cool
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

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#374858 - 11/11/13 02:19 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: travlin'easy]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: travlin'easy
I have a question - If you are not contemplating the purchase of a particular arranger keyboard, why continue to try to compare one to another? For some strange reason, this just doesn't seem to make sense to me at all. Who in the Hell cares?

Thanks God it's five O'clock somewhere,

Gary cool


That's right, Gary, I feel the same way right now.

Who the Hell cares?

It's 6:15 here...just finished supper.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374886 - 11/11/13 04:52 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Perhaps I'm stupid, but I kind of post about the shortcomings in the forlorn hope that perhaps Yamaha owners MIGHT see the benefit of the missing features, and perhaps join in...

I know, I know, it's a pretty slim hope, given how backwards you chaps bend to avoid any mention of something that could be improved, but what does one do? Capitulate to this absurdity?

And Ian... try harder. MUCH harder. I have never posted about how important aftertouch is. After all, I don't use it. Why would I? I kind of expect it on the TOTL, and don't on the MOTL. So my current situation is nothing remarkable at all. Aging may have affected your memory, it hasn't mine.

I think, if you BOTHERED to look backwards (but then again, why bother when simply making something up helps your argument better? LOL), the only time you'll see me mention it at all is to lament the better options on the G1000 which turned it into something useful. Don't make something up. Find it or remain silent.

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#374890 - 11/11/13 05:52 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki
Perhaps I'm stupid, but I kind of post about the shortcomings in the forlorn hope that perhaps Yamaha owners MIGHT see the benefit of the missing features, and perhaps join in...

I know, I know, it's a pretty slim hope, given how backwards you chaps bend to avoid any mention of something that could be improved, but what does one do? Capitulate to this absurdity?

.


If you are meeting with that much resistance, then isn't it obvious that it isn't working?

So, I'm guessing that you feel that if something isn't working all you need is a bigger hammer?

Yeah, that'll fix it.

Capitulation may be your best option, because the bigger hammer method is failing miserably.

On the positive side, I suppose, your "unique" posting style has probably sold more instruments for Yamaha than it has diverted to your favorite brand.

I don't work for the company anymore, so I really don't care about sales, but I suspect there are some who look in on this forum that would probably owe you some thanks for moving their product, if it hadn't been totally unintentional on your part.

So, it would be unfair to them if I suggested you remain silent.

So, to use a Cape Breton expression, " Givit to 'er by'e!

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#374979 - 11/12/13 11:58 AM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
My hammer isn't really very large... way smaller than the resistance to my using it.

I am still perplexed as to why you would NOT want audio on the multipads to start in sync and be able to loop. Before you get all bent out of shape over someone with perhaps the foresight (or the experience) to see how crippled the feature is, perhaps you might like to explain why the Tyros5 and S950 ought NOT to be able to do this simple task?

And there's only one person here shilling for a manufacturer. TBH, the fewer people join me in what I chose to play, the better! All I am interested in is improving the breed across the board. The more manufacturers implement decent design, the closer the competition becomes, the harder they work to innovate. And that benefits us ALL.

Well, with the exception of YOU, Ian..! I guess it must be confusing how Yamaha mysteriously find things to improve in an instrument you always insist is perfect and needs nothing, and anyone suggesting improvement MUST be trying to promote the brand they use...

How about, if you don't really CARE about whether something gets improved on a Yamaha arranger, you just keep out of the discussion?

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#374984 - 11/12/13 12:20 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Sorry pal, you know I never take you seriously, considering your track record.

Have a nice day.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#375001 - 11/12/13 01:07 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Likewise, my friend... drink

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#375002 - 11/12/13 01:07 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Hal2001]
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I am going to keep a count of how many posts you refuse to actually address the issue on. Double digits so far, lets shoot for triple!

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#375019 - 11/12/13 01:47 PM Re: Tyros keys - Advantages & Disadvantages vs others [Re: Diki]
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10596
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Originally Posted By: Diki
Likewise, my friend... drink


Thank goodness we agree on something.

I'm tickled you got the BK-9, as it was becoming obvious by your posting style you were slowing down, and getting weaker.

Those poor little arms can now rest easy.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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