I'm sure lots of you do the same...substitute the chords used in writing a tune for something you like better.

For instance, sometimes I'll take a tune like Three Dog Night's "Pieces of April" and play a Bmaj 7 to a C#min 9 instead of a B maj 7 to an Emaj 7. Depending on the tune, I might hold the B bass note thru the changes or use an alternate bass note.

I'm a big fan of major 7ths, so I often use them on ballads instead of the straight chord.

What about you? What recognizable tunes have you customized
with your own structural alterations?

I'd like to experiment with some of your tunes and ideas.


Russ

This would be an INVALUABLE thread on this board ... I'm an 'old dog' who is still willing to try to learn new tricks ... UNfortunately, prior attempts at such a thread never really got off the ground ...
Looking forward to some education from some of the "players" out there ...

Find as many of your favorite tunes as you can in a Bill Evans discography and then spend a day listening to them over and over and over. If you've got a good ear, you'll learn all you need to know.

With jazz chords, it sometimes depends on the instrument. For instance, jazz guitar chords tend to be voiced differently than jazz chords on a piano, and different still on a 'Rhodes'. For Rhodes, it's George Duke all the way for me.

I don't do substitutions as much as revoicings. There are just some jazz chords I tend to play in a certain way in certain keys....not a good thing, just habit and laziness. Like Tony, I'd be interested in learning a few new (easy) tricks, so let's have it, folks.

chas

I expect you to be one of the teachers, chas ...

Chas, you are right about inversions/re-voicing in jazz formats.

I was trying to pick something universal and simple to get my point across and encourage some examples.

Bill Evans was the master of inversions. I drive myself crazy trying to figure out what was going on in that brilliant, troubled head of his.

In pop and simpler formats, a simple substitution of a maj 7th can make all the difference in the world.

A lot of this comes down to personal style, as you point out in some of your chord preferences. I'm the same way.

Suggestions as to a stylistic approach to the assembly/choice of chords is equally valuable here.

For a simple example, our classic R&B C, Am, F and G. is often converted by orchestra and jazz players as a Cmaj 7, Am9, Dmin7th, G7. On guitar, this eliminates open chords and allows control of slides and sustains, classing the act up a little. And, if you learn that structure on guitar, you can easily play in different keys by simply starting the Cmaj7th form in the right position, as indicated by the bass note played on the A string.

As usual, Chas, it must be mental unity. Musically, you and I often think so much alike.

Anyone else....??????


Russ

George Duke is my man, too!


Russ

A Major 7th chord has certain qualities; It is rare when it is used in a song that is driving. A song like Misty or Stormy needs a Major 7th chord to be complete the song.

A major chord in a ballad or bosa nova is dry so adding a Major 7th or a 6th adds to the song. This is not limited to jazz, it fits whenever the Major chord needs help. I cannot picture playing a C major chord for 8 beats.

In a rock or blues progression – I IV V -- C F G7 try using all ninth chords with the ninth as the high leading note. C9 F9 G9

John C.

I feel it would be a good idea to select a song most of us know and then let the ideas flow.

John C.

Dead on observations, john.

r.

I totally agree, in fact I couldn't even play a Major 7th for 8 beats, I would at least alternate between a Major 7th and Major 6th to keep it moving.

George is the master of the Rhodes. There is no-one else like him. Over the years I have seen him play live on 2 occasions, once with the Mothers Of Invention with Frank Zappa and Jean Ponty and then later on with Stanley Clarke. Always a musical treat.

Here he is promoting the Rhodes at NAMM.

Love it, love it, love it. The groove in the first video is exactly what we try to get late into the gig. The difference is that we don't have a Eric Marienthal (Sax) and I'm definitely no George Duke (I am in my head but the fingers don't always cooperate ). Hard to believe that players of that caliber can barely make a decent living while the Taylor Swifts of this world become billionaires. Harder still to believe that (unless you're stuck in C&W hell) anyone would prefer playing solo on an arranger to playing within a group like that. I'm not talking about the economics of it, just the musical side of it. If you're in it as sole-source income (and not an a-lister), I can understand the economics of going the arranger/OMB route.....but man, talk about living in two different worlds......

chas

Whats wrong with Country Western Music? I enjoy it alot.....
Take a listen to a Top artist like Carrie Underwood & Vince Gill perform How Great Thou Art or Jesus take the Wheel,..
simply amazing!!......there is good and bad in all music...
not everyone likes jazz.....for me I take a little from all types of music and try to incorporate what I absorb into my own performances in some way...to have blinders on in music is just wrong IMO..

THIS APPLIES TO ALL MUSIC WHICH INCLUDES COUNTRY

When playing a “G” chord notes like G,B,D, E, A and F# do not create tension; they enhance what happening in a gentle manner. But when playing a rock song and the last thing I want to play is a B, E, or F #, I need to create tension so I play notes like Bb and F and a C; of course there will be bending and sliding.

I PLAY: G - Bb - C - D - F against a G Major chord and there is the tension I want. This applies to Rock, Jazz and Blues; depending on how they are used.

My thought: Creating tension is great as long as you release it by playing G – B – D – E – A and then add the tension again. The amount of tension that is applied decides what type of music is being played. When tension is used tastefully in good balance you create good music. (opinion)

When my audience got to a point when they were wound up (tension) we let up only to bring them up again. Keeping the audience wound up does not give the same effect as bring them down and then up again – they will feel the difference. If one leaves the audience (dancers) up, filled with tension it creates wild – crazy – fatigue – and more; some want that feeling. Wow I said that good. (smile)

John C.

Oh really, Donny. So how do you feel about Rap? Incorporate much of that in your performances?

I don't 'hate' C&W or C&W afficianados, but just used it as probably the group that was least likely to appreciate or even like a performance such as was shown in the first video.

As for Carrie and Vince; I'm sure they are very talented artists and performers, just not my cup of tea. That fact in no way diminishes THEM. And being an avowed Atheist, the songs don't float my boat either. To each his own, RIGHT? Live and let live, RIGHT? Different strokes for different folks, RIGHT? I'm much more tolerant of folks that PRACTICE their religion (by their good deeds) rather than just PREACH it but do the opposite.

chas

Even with intricate tunes like "Darn That Dream" which is as intricate as they come, there's a feature on BIAB that amazes me every time I use it, that suggest chord substitutions on any chord in the song no matter what genius wrote the chords in a fake book or whatever.

If you don't have BIAB and or don't use this feature you are losing out on a valuable tool for improving you musical knowledge. Again if 3 chords rock your boat don't get BIAB.

All you need is the simple version. I'm still amazed with version 2010 or something like that. I haven't upgraded in years. Of course the 20,000 sounds on the newer versions bore me to death. I'm only interested in the musical knowledge it provides.

I don't consider adding a 7th or a 9th to a chord a true substitution. An example of a substitution is more like playing a Fm6 before a G7 or G9 chord and someone says try a Dm7b5 instead of the Fm6 is a real substitution. It has the same notes but the voicing makes for a different sound that resolves to the G7 or G9th chord more harmonically and allows for a smoother transition to a Cm7 where there are many tunes that use this progression when playing in Eb usually in a bridge like in the tune, "Give Me A Kiss To Build A Dream On" and another tune that comes to mind is, "Give Me The Simple Live," also played originally in Eb.

R&R, FUNK does not need chord substitutions. You just need to slam the 7th's b5th's and minor 3rd's as often as possible. They work anywhere in the tune if you know which note to make it resolve to. Especially after a dozen drinks the crowd will flip out, have a good time, and you should make a lot of money and have a good time too. I did this for many years in New Orleans, but decided it was time to graduate to something that would motivate the little brain I had left. Ha ha. Back to lurking. I let you guys hash this over.

Sorry to just to select this section Chas, but that is a GREAT point to make. FWIW, I am in total agreement. (No intent here to derail the thread, just wanted to make comment is all.)

Dennis

Chas so angry so early in the day?....and yes I like many rap songs also.....and yes I have taken things from listening to them also, beats, Melodie lines, etc, I love the accordion also,.....as for all the other stuff you mentioned,...so be it....and God Bless America !!

Back to the original subject:
G9 G7-9 G7+9 G13 (ECT) are all chord extensions; chord substations are chord with different names than the original chord and they do effect the bass note that is to be played.

I feel this should be kept simple so that it can be understood and enjoyed. I am always wide eyed when someone is adding knowledge to my pot; there is always something to learn. This type of thinking makes my performance different/improved then it was some years ago.

John C.

Also I think it should be pointed out that the timing of the tensions needs to be just so to get it grooving, jm2c

D

This is a good topic (chord substitution) and something I'm always trying to brush up on. I have a few "stock" formula type things that work well for intros and endings. Here's one I was working on this morning for the tune "shawdow of your smile".

Instead of ending right on the "I" chord the following chromatic ending sounds really nice:

bV IV III bIII II bII I

All the chords are dominant (sounds nice with altered notes like sharp 9's,13th's, sharp 11's...)

So in the key of G this would be: Db7, C7, B7, A7, Abmaj9, G maj



I learned some real nice blues progression that break away from the I, IV, V chords. If anybody is interested I could try to a copy.

here's a book that I really enjoy and it has given many great ideas:

http://www.amazon.com/Intros-Endings-Tur...ds+john+valerio

Little boy said, "mommy, when I grow up I want to be a musician".

"You can't do both, son", replied the mom.

Enjoyed all your contributions.

I can't imagine a musical world where we stop improving and learning.

The country thing....love Rory and Vince...HATE most of the music. Players of that stature can "out jazz" me with one hand tied behind their back.

Everyone needs to decide what they want to play and ....DO IT!


For me, that means NO COUNTRY MUSIC....at least no modern country.

But, hey, I love to hear Don do country. OK to listen to it done well, just bores me to play it. But again Donny is an entertainer and does what he can sell to his public...nothing wrong with that. Wish I had just a little entertainer in my soul...I DON'T.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it
(Ending with an Eflatmaj7+9-deep bow)

SO THERE!

R.

I just think Donny often confuses us here with his audience...

As MUSICIANS, shouldn't we be more aware of what is fatuous pablum, to divert and entertain the unstudied, and what is great music, with thought and heart and skill behind it..?

Now, don't get me wrong... There is country music I admire and respect. And there is jazz (especially smooth jazz and the worst of the bigband years) that I abhor. But when you play out the averages, let's just say, you have to look a LOT harder down the country charts to find something that has anything but money as its motivating factor!

But that puts it squarely down Donny's favorite motivation, I guess!

Hi,
what do you guys do for transitions??

I find good stuff in almost every type of music. I am talking about how the music effects your emotion. Some country makes me want to get up and dance, I find it exciting. But I also find beauty in a waltz; not so much in a polka. Listen to the music in a movie – it set you in their mood.

Progressions:
Throughout all music you will find a V7 – I progressions. This is so important if you are improvising or trying to memorize the chords of a song. This is one of the first steps in chord substitution. Try finding the V7 – I in a song.

Five foot two is an old song but it’s a good example of a V7 – I progression.
C E7 A7
Five foot two eyes of blue oh what those five could do has
D7 G7 C

anybody seen my gal

E7 to A7 is considered a V7- I A being a #1 chord.

The same for A7 – D7 D being #1

and again D7 – G7 and G7 – C all V7 – I progressions.

This is foundational for chord substations. Great for playing a great improvised lead to.

John C.

lyrics and chords may not be in the correct places.

Huh ... ??? the best musicians in all genres ( Rock, Blues & C&W etc ) all have a solid grounding in jazz fundamentals. You don't have to like jazz as such to understand that jazz requires a complete knowledge and understanding of music structure that applies to any style of music. And in relation to this thread it certainly applies to chord substitution.

But having said that ... how can anyone not like hot jazz playing that is the pinnacle of muscianship

Please don't put down all "smooth jazz". There is music that is included under that "label" I absolutely love. Artists like Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, Steely Dan, The Rippingtons, Spyra Gyra, Al Jarreau, George Benson, Weather Report and Acoustic Alchemy ( plus many others ) I just love and don't deserve to be dismissed because they get labeled as "smooth jazz". They are legitimate and acomplished musicians that produce extraordinary music.

Well since Nigel just listed a good chunk of my favorite players and groups, I guess I must be a 'smooth jazz' lover too (although I do agree with Donny on one point - that there is "good and bad in all music"). In fact, I like most forms of jazz with the possible exception of Dixieland and early Swing (big band or small group). Although I'm not a big fan of Big Band (with the exception of those great Count Basie bands - remember 'Count Basie Swings, Sinatra Sings' or all those memorable tracks with Joe Williams on vocals - also, he's my cousin on my Fathers side - honestly), they are unbelievable fun to play in (I played trumpet and horn in high school and college).

Although not as complex (and therefore more accessible) as traditional jazz (as exemplified by 'trane, Bird, Miles, Chick, et al), it still contains the main ingredients of good jazz, that is, rhythm, sophisticated chord structure, improvisation, and a degree of difficulty that weeds out the 'pretenders'.

Although I love Blues, I sometimes struggle with certain forms of it (like real authentic 'Mississippi Delta' or Zydeco). I think it's because of it's primitive roots that predate conventional musical rules. However, if Bo Didley can squeeze a 50yr career out of playing just ONE chord , I guess there's SOMEthing to it.

Hey, this is so far off script; so far only John C., Montunoman, and Brickboo have been able to stay on topic. Oh well, it IS Synthzone.



chas

Now, no offence here, and I have he fullest respect for most here - including you Chas - but it is lines like this that cause the impression that Jazz folk ARE elitist, and snobby....and I have come across quite a few...sadly.

Just because someone cannot play the licks and chops as fast or as good as someone else should in NO way exclude them from playing and enjoying Jazz, whatever form it takes.

Maybe it was not intended, but it does come across that way imo.

The more playing it the better I reckon...and some of the "hardened pros" should maybe set back a while and at least give credit to the pretenders rather than "put-downs"....

Dennis

Miden I admire the musician who plays a C# between a C note and a D note. You can call that Jazz, rock, or just improvising. And I have heard a line of notes that were so good far better than a line played with many more notes. By not playing the notes exactly as they were written you have room to express yourself -- the song becomes you.

There musicians who cannot read music and those who have studied for years; they may even have degrees but there in law which will point out the best. It is like someone’s opinion, it’s there’s they own it – they feel it and they cannot be told they are incorrect. I am not talking about fact here just opinions.

So Miden great for you if you’re giving it a try. This post is for many like you who would enjoy to having a song that has a flavor of you; even if it’s only two notes that you have added.

John C.

I certainly didn't mean to put anyone down and only meant that as a genre', jazz is, IMO, just flat out harder to master than most other genre's. I think it's partly because of the improvisational nature of it (some folks just can't play ANYTHING unless it's written down - I know some excellent classical players that fit that description), the more complex voicings and phrasing, the more complex and, in some cases, much speedier tempos, and just the fact that it's not as familiar to most folks unless they grew up in a household where it was played.

That said, it doesn't make those who attempt it, despite all of the above, 'pretenders', and I'm sorry I chose that word, as on re-reading, it does smack of 'elitism'. BTW, I definitely consider myself one of the 'pretenders' as I feel extremely challenged every single night we play, even after all these years. But, in my mind, that's the fun and the value of it; 'no pain, no gain'. For me anyway, when playing jazz, I don't feel as though I can relax for a single second, that I must constantly listen to what everyone else is doing (and respond accordingly) and always search for new ways to express what the music is making me feel. I just don't get that from other music forms, except maybe for Blues.

So for all those that I offended with that statement, I apologize, and I certainly would encourage any and all to both listen to and play jazz, as it's the very best way to expand it's acceptance and appreciation for the art form. Glad you called me out on that, Dennis. I wasn't really aware of how it sounded when I posted it.

chas

Gee Chas now you sound almost as humble as me and Cavanaugh. Where in the heck is Cavanaugh?

Try spending a minute on this thought. Make that 2 minutes! The telephone has 10 digits yet there are billions of phone numbers.

Music notes number 12. A tenor sax has approx 2 1/2 octaves. How many variations (phone numbers) can you get out of that. Add accents, bent notes, different rhythms, fake notes (on saxes), personality and on and on and on!!!!!

Call it infinite! And all you want to do is 3 three chords? Go figure. It's like playing tic tac toe all your life and never wanting to graduate to "Suduku." Ha ha!

No worries at all Chas, thanks And I am in 100% agreement with ...."and I certainly would encourage any and all to both listen to and play jazz, as it's the very best way to expand it's acceptance and appreciation for the art form."

Dennis

Niles ... many thanks for posting those RHODES demos ... GREAT stuff ...



John ... thnx for the above examples ... adding a M7th or M6th is a common practice of mine, but I would like to know what chord substitutions people are using in a tune like "MISTY" ... anyone???

Half remembered tunes offer the best opportunity for 'substitutions'! It's amazing what you can come up with when you don't know what you are SUPPOSED to play!

BTW, if you are looking for entire re-versionings... Herbie's 'River: The Joni Letters' where he works over Joni Mitchell tunes is amazing, or an even greater stretch might be the Charlie Hunter Quartet's reversion of the entire Bob Marley 'Natty Dread' album in a jazz mode..!

See, I just KNEW there'd be advantages to aging!

Hi Chas,
came across a good book many years ago, basically for classical players. " Jazz Improvisation for the Classical Pianist" by Martan Mann".
It was way over my head at the time, but, I ended up lending it to my piano teacher , (she was a really good classical pianist). Anyway she was so impressed she ended up buying a copy for herself.

The idea of the book is try and bridge the world of the classical pianist with the world of the jazz improvisor.
After studying the book , a classical player should have the knowledge to create their own stylings and arrangements from a Fake Book and have the ability to start improvising.

With the bit of classical piano I did learn early on, knowing what a chord was, wasn't part of it. I was too old to bother going thru 5 to 6 years of classical piano lessons, plus playing classics didn't really appeal. I was a real Richard Clayderman fan, so I painstakingly learnt the sheet music note for note. I think back on how much easier it would have been if I'd understood chord construction, would have made learning a tune a lot quicker.
Eventually came across " Bill Irwins Magic Study Series for the Popular Pianist". First section was on chord construction. Second section was on rythms.3rd section covered R/H Harmony, Embellishments, Block Chords etc. Fourth section coverd fills, transposition & chord progressions.
Last but not least was complete section on just Diminished chords, which covered intro's modulations fills interludes & repeats.
Never quite worked my way thru the whole book, it got packed up along with all my piano books after I had to sell my little baby grand.
Kids left, downsized to a much smaller home.

Anyway, I've dug the book back out again, and realized that parts of it could be handy for my arranger playing.

Misty

Bb7+5 E7+9 Ebmaj7 Bbm7
Look at me I’m as helpless as a
A7-5 Abmaj7
kitten up a tree
Abm7 Db9
and I feel like I’m clinging to a cloud
Ebmaj7 Cm7 Fm7
I can’t understand I get Misty
Bb13-9 Ebmaj7 -- F#13-F#9-Fm7 Bb7 E7+9
just holding your hand (Turn – around)


These chords are dependent on their voicing to sound good. The right bass note and high lead note.
This is a bit involved – I would like to get back to something more basic and build up.
Note: Guitar people are notorious when it comes to creating chord progressions and using chord extensions and substitutions. What a job posting this music; next time I thing I’ll use a JPG.

John C.

Sorry but the chords did not stay where I put them – in cut and paste something went wrong. I’m hoping that you can place them where they belong.

John C.

The danger in learning chord extensions, chord substitutions and improvising is that we can lose the joy of what we are trying to do because we have made it too complicated. If you are young and have the time to put in then by all means learn it all.

When I studied chord theory I was able to use a different chord on every beat; wow, fantastic – but it sounded terrible. Just add one chord change and listen, no more.

Roman numerals are used because when we Say Chord “I” we are referring to the first step in all keys.

Key of C Major: I = C IIm7 = Dm7 V7 – G7 This is the most used progression in music. Learn it in all keys. If I was talking about Rock and Blues it would be: I = C IV F instead of IIm7 and V7 = G7. Let’s stay with: IIm7 V7 I = Dm7 G7 C.

One change: substitute a bII7 chord for a V7 chord Db7 instead of G7.

Possibilities in the key of C major.
Dm7 Db7 C
Dm7 G7 Db7 C

Whenever you see a V7 going to a I chord = G7 C make the change and listen to how it sounds. How it sounds is the final test.

John C.

Acoustic Alchemy....Joe Williams? From two favorites...Chas and Nigel comes mention of two of my all-time favorites.

I believe that all good players at least have an affinity for structures required to [play jazz.

Rory, arguably one of the best players here, started and now excels at gospel and country, but can "out jazz" me with his eyes closed (sorry, Rory...just had to do it), and I "ain't no slouch".

I started off as a fan of Chet Atkins and Les Paul. You just graduate to ever more complicated structures, substitutions, etc.

Of course, you play yourself out of a job, but that's a subject for another day.

Thanks to all for the sincere, articulate suggestions.

Now Chas. What about that Sister....or Aunt...or neighbor?
How about whomever (like that word?) has the biggest social security check or dead/divorced husband's retirement check?

Just askin?


Russ (former horndog) Lay

Yes! That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
DonM

Now, the real world. I played the annual Roots and Heritage festival last week-end. The city paid really well, but, to do the George Duke thing in a club is a $75.00 gig, and there are 3 area "monsters" fighting for the work.I'm the weakest player, but vocals get me by.

Two weeks ago, at a government function a city official came up to me and said, "you play mostly country, don't you?" When I said "hell no", the guy said, "I figured if you could play country, you could play anything".

I wanted to but his B***'s off, but then realized he didn't have any.

Oh well, off to my fried chicken job tomorrow.


What a sell-out I've become.


Russ (glad I'm not on the "chicken cam") Lay

Russ, here are a couple of 'on the fly' chord substitutions I often employ:

1) add a 'predominant' chord before a dominant 7th chord.
IIm - V7; IV - V7

2) Play a tri-tone (flat 5) chord substituton
Substitute Db7 for G7, F#7 for C7, etc, as these chord pairs share the same 3rd and 7th notes (a tri-tone interval) away notes.

There are many others as well and some of these are outlined here. Using chord substitutions can open the door to making a song more refreshing & uniquely yours. In addition to simply utilizing chord substitutions, it's the 'voicing' used (how you stack (invert) the notes of the chord) and the kind of (smooth) 'voice leading' played which can make or break a song. - Scott

I'd love to hear examples of these chord substitutions played....maybe then we can all learn something. personally I use all kind of chords in what ever way necessary to make the music sound good and let me enjoy performing it the way I like ....I was always a chord "Rebel" all my life never adhering to the charts.....there are no rules just good music I say.

I just listened to the two Carrie Underwood pieces and then went back to George Duke. They're as different as night and day.

For the Carrie/Vince piece, it's all message and the superior guitar work of Vince. Inversions and chord substitutions don't come into play here. Vince does some very tasty variations on the lead line.

The George/Eric/Bloomburg pieces are all improvisation. You can just see that genius mind of Duke planning what he's going to do on the next pass.

Of course, Vince could step right in and trade fours with George. But, they both stick with what they know and love.

Little Carrie seams like a sweet little lady, but, in my opinion, at least, not much in the pure vocal talent department.

We're not talking "apples to apples" here.

It's similar to the entertainer vs. musician issue.

Please note, I'm making no comment about the religious content of the Carrie Underwood pieces, but concentrating on just the structure and possibilities of using the substitution/inversion ideas we are talking about.

Russ

Dennis, glad to hear someone (not surprised it's you) mention Charlie Hunter. When I realize that he's plying simultaneous bass on that monster guitar, I just shake my head. Went to hear him a couple of times. WOW!

R.

LOL!!! Russ you meant Diki, yes?

Dennis

My bad! It is Diki who mentioned Charlie Hunter.

That certainly doesn't surprise me, and I believe Dennis is a prime candidate for knowing who he is, also.

Old eyes!


R.

You can get some good ideas here:
http://www.theguitarguy.com/

DonM