Eric,

Not certain how many people are playing the Tyros looks like two, do they need to show it all like this or is it me, sounds bloody good, amazing what you can get out of a Tyros that no other KB ARR can deliver, Yamaha have sure got it right on the money, glad I binned the Audya, it don't and never will make sounds like that... thanks Eric for finding the goodies.

Tony

Eric,
thanks for that demo link showcasing that vintage synth
made famous on Sweet Dreams. Always loved this song.
What brand/model synth was that?
I'm thinking of purchasing this vintage synth pack
but at $169, will probably wait till it eventually(?) goes on sale.

Scott

Awfully thin and weak sounding analog sounds. Have a listen to the original Eurythmics song and you'll quickly realize Yamaha's vintage synth pack bores no resemblance to true analog sounds used by Dave Stewart. The attempt was a valiant effort, the Tyros 4 just wasn't the correct instrument to pull it off.

For those interested the song used a Roland SH-09 and CSQ-100, Juno 6, Oberheim, and Movement Drum Computer.

E'aint'sure,

Was it supposed to be an exact copy, wouldn't you need the group or the original DVD to do that, sounded OK to me what the hell do I know, you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time, can you give us your rendition.

I really like these new Vintage Synth sounds...since I already have an MOX6 and a mint condition vintage Roland Jupiter 8 the pack isn't going to be of much interest to me yet, although I may be interested down the road if and when I sell the JP-8.

Personally, I am thoroughly enjoying the already excellent synth patches that are already present in the Tyros4's Pad and Synth categories, and, to my experienced ears, these sounds meet or exceed the quality of voices in Yamaha's own Motif series.

Very impressive fat and warm analog style patches interspersed with incredibly sweet digital voices that work extremely well on their own or in a mix.

The Voice Editor that comes packaged with the Tyros4 is also very powerful and exceedingly easy to use.

Ian

Ian,

You are right a lot of people don't even load it on their PC, it's a hell of a tool for editing voices and so easy to use as you say, the T4 will take some beating, I don't care what anyone says you need to own one before you start shooting blanks off at the hip.

Tony

True enough Tony...there is a lot of power lurking under that panel...I grew up on high end analog synths and had the best of the early digitals, and the Tyros4 doesn't have to take a back seat to any of them.

The T4's included PC Voice editor is brilliant, although I can do most, if not all, of my basic quick editing, using the tools right on the instrument...stuff like Attack, Filter etc..

The Tyros4 will be a tough act to follow, in my opinion.

Ian

It's supposed to be a premium pack of vintage analog synthesizer sounds but those sounds showcased fall seriously short. Yamaha has never had great samples of analog synthesizers and other than the CS-80, Yamaha has no analog synthesizers to speak of worth a damn.

I definitely don't see Ian ditching his Jupiter 8 for the vintage synth pack. The Tyros 4 is a decent keyboard but in no way are its synthesis capabilities on par with the best analog synthesizers of the past. To think otherwise would be foolish.

I don't think I'd ditch my Jupiter 8 for any analog packs, including the VST's available out there.

Still, the Tyros4 shines in areas that my Jupiter 8 (and MOX6) can't touch, especially those big hybrid type digital sounds that also have a lot of analog character in them.

I didn't fancy the CS-80, and the only analogs I really liked were the high end Moog, Oberheim and Roland.

Many of the patches on the Tyros4 are very reminiscent of a high end analog midi'd to a high quality digital...they sound BIG and impressive and have lots of movement and character...I can't get that on a strictly analog synth, although the Oberheim Matrix 12 could get pretty close.

Certainly the appeal and quality of synth sounds and patches are a subjective matter, as I've heard people rave about sounds that did not appeal to me in the slightest, and, then again, some really big hit songs were produced using extremely low-end synths and very thin sounding patches, so I guess it all boils down to personal preferences and, in many cases, stumbling on a sound that seems to do the trick.

One thing for sure, the Tyros4 has come the closest to the "ideal" one instrument only than any other keyboard I have owned in the past.

Ian

PS...being able to stack up to three of the Tyros4's already powerful voices really gives the player quite a varied palette...then with judicious use of panning and the excellent on board effects, you can end up with some very interesting patches indeed.

Well to get an accurate synth sound (Particularly analogue) you either need a software version of it, or a large number of samples of it, (A synth is constantly moving so unless the software does the same or you have a large enough number of samples of it that you can move around) otherwise you are never going to get an accurate sound, and as the T4 has no synthesis on-board and limited sample memory, it will always be at a disadvantage.

On the other hand, if you just want something similar to add to your performance (Which a lot of people do (Hence all the easy play features available on an arranger) then they will most likely be fine. (Remember it what suits you, not somebody else)

For those that have a computer, try FM8, Absynth or Massive to get some real synth sounds. (There are many others, but the above mentioned are reasonably priced)

Details of them can be found here

Bill

True...it is what suits YOU and not someone else.

Easy Edit is also on most pro synthesizers, and, in my experience as a clinician, most players user this feature.

For me, the Tyros4 has come the closest to a complete all-in-one instrument. I'm not much for using the easy play features (one fingered chord for example), although I have heard players that were using them that would put many so called "pros" to shame.

There are many variances in how we play and what gear we need to get our ideas across..it's like speech...some people need a paragraph to say one thing, whereas some can do it in a single sentence.

I like Montunoman's saying, "It's not the keyboard, but the keyboardist."

Ian

Now this tech stuff is way over my head. Sounds like you guys are experts. I'll leave this one alone.

I think you are all missing the point about all of this. The reason the Vintage Synth Pack is valuable is because Yamaha is the ONLY Arranger manufacturer who is publishing extensible voices and Styles for their keyboards; especially those with Flash Ram installed. I love the argument that you cant compare the voices to Software Synths and the Kronos or Jupiter or whatever. We are talking about an ARRANGER keyboard that is being expanded and supported by a conscientious manufacturer. I own the Vintage Keys pack and the sounds rival those on my Motif and Kronos.

You can do this also with it >>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRDS0h0cB0Q&feature=plcp

Impuls

Wersi has been offering sound upgrades for all their instruments since longer than the Tyros line existed. They've also offered hardware and software upgrades so users like myself and Abacus didn't have to ditch our instrument for the next new fangled offering. So Yamaha is NOT the only arranger manufacturer as you've stated.

I seriously doubt the Tyros Vintage Synthesizers Pack Rivals the Kronos sounds. I'd also venture a guess that the Motif has many of the same sounds of vintage synthesizers on board because Yamaha uses their sound libraries on cross platforms. One things for sure, the synthesizer sounds I've heard on the T4 certainly don't compare to any of my vintage synths nor can it. You're trying to make an Apple be an Orange and that's just never going to happen.

Of course your idea of what sounds good (or authentic) is your own personal opinion, as keyboard sounds are very subjective, and what sounds good to one, may sound less than stellar to another.

Can you please provide some demos (played by you if you are up to it) of the vintage synth sounds in YOUR Wersi?

I, and no doubt, several others, would love to hear them and form our own opinions.

Ian

PS...what model Wersi do you have?

Do you gig with the Wersi? Is it portable like any other workstation?

FACT: Yamaha uses samples from the Motif for the Tyros series keyboards.

How much have you paid in total for your Wersi keyboards?? 10K 15K 20K??

Yep Ensnareyou,

I would love to listen to a perfect rendition of the Eurythmics, played on any Wersi, can't wait.(No pressure)!!

Tony

PS I don't think anyone other than Yamaha have the money to throw at good sounding stlyes, Wersi operate on the back of a postage stamp, I think Ketron might be better placed than Wersi to do anything like good sytles.

The original discussion was about synth sounds and I also added some links to show what professionals use for comparison purposes, however other posts appear to have moved this thread towards a mine is better than yours thread, which I had hoped we had got rid of some time ago.

Bill

I merely stated that the sounds from the vintage synth pack are inferior to their original counterparts which they're suppose to mimic and then others went off on a tangent. You didn't see me say my Wersi has better synthesizer sounds than the Tyros 4 although it does. Unlike the Tyros, the Wersi uses FM, Wavetable, Analog Modeling, and Samples to produce its sounds. In addition I can layer any combination of the various types of synthesis to make massive sounds.

Me reproducing a Eurythmics song using my Wersi or any other arranger would be pointless unless I were to use samples from the Juno 6, SH09, OB-X, and Movement Drum Computer. At least I have the capability to do this rather than be stuck with some sub par vintage synth sounds the manufacturer wants me to believe sound authentic.

I'm lucky to own or have owned almost every great analog synth ever made. It saddens me to see companies promote a product saying its giving you an authentic sound of the original when it bares no resemblance to it.






to

I wouldn't say the sound of a true vintage analog and its whimpy poorly sampled counterpart is very subjective. Put a Memorymoog in unison then play one note of a Moog like sound on your Tyros 4. Heck, go ahead and stack the Tyros 4 sound a few times to give it a fighting chance. Now play them side by side and see how poorly the Tyros fares. Do the same with the Jupiter 8 or OB-X versus your Tyros 4. That vintage synth pack isn't going to come close.

There's a reason people use vintage synths, its because nothing else sounds like them. Unless you're willing to do multisamples with a minimum of 5 seconds each, no looping, and sample each or every other key, you're not likely to come close to the original. This would require massive memory which would well exceed the total ROM that the Tyros 4 comprises.

I was looking forward to hearing your Wersi's synth sounds, so it is rather disappointing that you won't provide them.

So, essentially, all we have is your opinion that your Wersi "has better synthesizer sounds than the Tyros 4".

It would have been nice if, like you, we were actually able to compare, but since Wersi instruments are a bit like Yeti on this forum, that obviously isn't going to happen.

No problem. Believe whatever you want.

As I said earlier, sound is very personal and subjective, and what sounds great (or "better") to you, may sound rather ordinary to the rest of us.


Ian

This isn't about my Wersi having better synthesizer sounds, its about the Yamaha vintage synth pack being a so so offering not closely resembling the instrument it's meant to mimic. Granted they'll be some usable sounds in the pack, but don't think for a second you're getting a sound remotely close to the real deal.

If the Tyros 4 was as amazing as Ian touts it to be, I'd sell every instrument I have to buy the panacea. If I had a Tyros 4 I'd never need another instrument again.

It wasn't about your Wersi having "better synthesizer sounds" until you stated it did, and that is still your opinion and certainly not a fact.

I have a Tyros4, and, it is to me, a very complete instrument...the stock on-board synth patches are pretty terrific (especially some of the pads), and all are nicely editable with either the on-board controls (for basic editing) or the provided PC Editor (for more extensive mods) and being able to stack up to three of them, really sounds awesomely cool. I also feel the synth pack will be a nice addition to what's already there.

As Billy said earlier, this wasn't supposed to be a "mine is better than yours" thread, so I'm content to leave things where they are, especially since you are unable to back up your previous "better than" statements with examples from your Wersi and therefore provide a fair comparison.

Ian

EnsnareYou,

I also think you are missing the point of all this. An arranger keyboard needs to normailize styles and sounds for ALL songs. Not just songs for the Eurythmics. There are specialty synths to reproduce those sounds as you pointed out.

You don't like the sounds of the sample pack for the T4 because it did not accurately reflect the sounds specific to a particular song in a particular synthesizer. There is absolutely nothing stopping a T4 owner from sampling the exact sounds from that song and reproducing them. Yamaha publishes the Sample Packs to provide a wide range of usability amongst many songs and genre's. This has nothing to do with mine is better than yours, it has everything to do with comparing apples and donuts.

Not hope in hell Billy

Ensareyou,

Still waiting for your Eurthmics demo, will you be long I am 68 now.

[/quote] It wasn't about your Wersi having "better synthesizer sounds" until you stated it did, and that is still your opinion and certainly not a fact.
[/quote]

Considering the Tyros 4 doesn't have any synthesis capability and my Wersi has several... Wavetable, FM, Modeling, Sampling, and allows me to stack any combination of these sources, I'd safely say the Wersi does have better synthesizer sounds.

Al,

I'm not missing the point. If I were to sample a Memorymoog, Chroma, Jupiter 8, ARP, Oberheim, or Prophets, I'd do so utilizing more samples than Yamaha has in the Tyros 4 combined. Sampling synthesizers that can evolve over time takes long samples that require massive memory to come remotely close to the original. If Yamaha were to provide samples of this nature the synth pack would require more RAM than the Tyros has. Their point isn't to give you authentic sounds, its to sell you a cheap sound pack making you believe you're getting sounds like these vintage synths produce.

The vintage synth pack sounds used in the Eurythmics demo were weak and thin and bore no resemblance to the vintage synths the Eurythmics used for the song. As I said, it was a valiant effort, well played and recorded, the sounds were just sub par.

Ensnoreyou,

We may as well drop this subject, since all we have to go on is opinions (especially in your case), and they are, at the best, very subjective.

Your Wersi can have all the synthesis capability available but since the only way to convince myself and others that it is as impressive as you say it is, would be to let us hear it, and since that will not be forthcoming, let's just leave it at that and move away from this unfair comparison. I know you'll be relieved.

It's like telling us you are an excellent singer, but never letting us hear you sing...it's not that we wouldn't believe you, but sharing a recording of your vocal capabilities would go a long way towards establishing your credibility.

As of now, we only have your opinion on the Wersi, and although you may believe what you are saying, very few of us have heard the instrument and have no idea how well it manages various synth sounds, or arranger duties, for that matter.

By the way, what model Wersi arranger do you have, and if we were to buy a similar instrument today, what would be the approximate list price, including the synth additions?


Ian

Hi Ian

Although the Abacus can be used as an arranger, it is actually part of the organ range.

The Synth sound pack however is also available for the Pegasus Wing Arranger and combined the cost is €2732 including 20% VAT (The tax is ridicules over this side of the pond)

The Synth Pack on its own is €120 including Tax

NOTE: All World of Sound Packs include sounds and pre-sets, however they DO NOT include styles, (The number of sounds in the Synth pack is 256) however the Famous Name Add-on Packs include everything.

Hope this helps

Bill

So its an opinion not a fact that the Tyros 4 doesn't have synthesis capability? Even Yamaha isn't foolish enough to claim that it does.

This isn't about my Wersi, I merely said the Wersi has synthesis capability, several types. Whether you think those synthesis engines are good or not is your opinion. Next to my vintage analogs the Wersi synth sounds very close. Not quite as dirty sounding as I'd like but very fat and warm. The advantage is of course being able to use various synth engines at one time and still having enough polyphony to play big chords

By the way.... I have an Abacus Duo Pro 25. The Abacus can be taken out by itself without the 76 note lower keyboard making it more portable. It weighs about as much as my Oasys did, maybe a few pounds more. If you're use to hauling around a plastic toy then the Abacus isn't for the faint or weak of heart.

As to cost... I have no idea what the current Abacus Pro version costs. I paid less for it than my Oasys, not much more than most people are paying for a Tyros 4.

Thank you kindly, Bill, for the information. Can you tell me what the Abacus would cost in today's dollars, with the available synth pack.

I can only assume that Ensnareyou has an Abacus from your post, so it is basically an organ and probably not easily portable.

I would really love to hear the Wersi's synth sounds regardless of it's place in the Wersi line-up, as I am a bit of a synth enthusiast myself, having had experience owning and/or playing Memorymoog, Polymoog, Mini-Moog, Oberheim Matrix-12 (which is in a friend's studio and owned by him) and still in the possession of a mint condition Jupiter 8 and a little monophonic Yamaha CS-01 (which actually has the same oscillator as the big CS-80!).

That's probably why I took to the Tyros4 so readily, as it has quite a few more synth/pad voices than the previous Tyros, the PC Editor is brilliant, and the sound is very much in the vein of the Motif, but for some reason, sounds (to my ears anyway)_more detailed and warm, although you can get edgy and cool if you wish.

Many are big evolving patches that I've only heard on digital/analog hybrids, and are pretty hard to get on a strictly analog synth like my JP-8, and, of course, listening to Telmo, there are a lot of cool patches available through Yamaha.

Much of my earlier work, back in the day (when dinosaurs ruled the earth ), was in radio, doing segues and ad "donuts" (music before and after a commercial or news show) and I sure wish I had the sounds (and the power) of an instrument like the Tyros4, or it's closest equivalent, a Korg PA3X. Having styles would have been a real boon for some types of recordings, so that's why I touched on the Wersi's arranger capabilities in my earlier post.

Again, thanks for the clarification. I searched YouTube for any Wersi arranger synth demos, but didn't fare so well.

Do you have any links that might be useful?

Ian

Really? The following earlier quote from you clearly indicates that it is about your Wersi.



But, as I said earlier, there's not much point in carrying this any further since you appear to be unwilling to back up your statement above...until then, it is just your opinion, and nothing more, and I'm afraid that doesn't quite cut it for me.

Ian

Ian,

The Wersi synth engines are Sonic Core plugs and utilize the SG12 card to run. If you go to Sonic Cores web site and check out the Minimax, Profit 5. Vectron, Modular 3, Prodyssey, and others, you'll hear what the Wersi synth sounds are like. John Bowen designed many of the plugs for Sonic Core and spent years refining them to be as close to the original as an emulation can be.

The next generation Wersi instruments supposedly no longer use the SG12 card so I'm not sure how they are running the various synth engines. I'm sure they must have a custom DSP to run the programs, I just don't know which one. Producing sounds of this nature takes a lot of horsepower which is why the SG12 card is in the Wersi. The SG12 is a multi DSP FPGA.

Hi Ian

The Abacus is no longer available on its own, only in its organ guise as seen here and with the Synth pack costs about €12800 including Tax.

It is used by a lot of players in Europe as it breaks down into sections however the main unit weighs about 100 lbs. (It’s made out of Wood, Fibre & Steel) so is normally carried around in a wheeled case.

Most European players use synth sounds in combination with normal sounds, which is how you get the European Sound.

Don’t know of any synth demos on their own (I don’t have the synth pack so can’t help) but there is some articles here which explains the pack and includes some demos, although as he says in the write up, he does not know the first thing about synths.

The main thing you will notice is the full richer sound of the Wersi voices demonstrated compared to the more flatter less involving T4 sounds, as to which is the best has little relevance, as some will like one whereas other will prefer the other.

Hope this helps

Bill

I suppose you're right, Bill...some will like one whereas others will prefer the other. Sounds are very personal and highly subjective.

To my ears the Tyros4 has a much more impressive and detailed sound, even without any extra packs and it's instrument emulations (especially SA/SA2) are second to none, in my opinion, of course....I'm aware the Wersi has more appeal to you, and it sounds pretty darn good, however it doesn't seem to be an instrument I'd like to live with, and listen to, every day. Basically, the overall sound is dated...good, but dated.

Of course, that's why I use a Tyros4, and you don't.

Perhaps, if we had a dealer within a reasonable distance, and I could actually spend some quality time with the instruments (I come from an organ background)I may grow to like the Wersi sound more than I do at present.

It's great to have choices and it's nice to see that we've both found what we wanted.

Ian

Whoops I am out of here!!! BOOOOOOOOOM In the name of love!!!

Hi Ian

I have been using computers for music for years and VST since they first came out, and I have yet to find any hardware that comes close (Although the Kurzweil is one hell of an instrument) however you are always isolated away as cables all over the place don’t go down well in the lounge, the Wersi however allows me to use everything in one unit (Yes in the lounge) hence the reason I have one.

If a hardware arranger came out that had what the pro studio and film produces use then that would be something, but until then I will stick with the Wersi.

A lot of the time I am out listening to live music anyway, and while you can see some impressive keyboard demos, in most cases they pale compared to the real deal.

Bill

Hi Ian

If you like the Jupter 8 you might like this for your computer

Bill

I understand, Bill...I guess that's why I'm very pleased with the Tyros4...it all comes down to what we find the best for our needs. I've used VST's before, but they are way too fiddly for my use, either on stage or in the studio.

I like using one instrument, if at all possible, and one that I know very well, inside out, with an interface that is both powerful and intuitive, with a keybed I am comfortable with and that has the response/feel I like. In the studio, time is big money, so I really appreciate having an instrument that does things so well, and, most importantly, so quickly.

The Tyros4 lets me be as creative as I'd like, or it lets me be lazy and pick one of the incredibly life-like styles, kick back and just play for fun.

It's definetly a lot of keyboard for the money, still light and compact enough to be transported by one person, and it will probably be my last arranger.

As I said in my last post, I'm glad we both found what we wanted.

Ian

Arturia make great VST's...I believe they also made a Prophet 5 emulator that was pretty cool.

The thing with the Jupiter 8 is the whole tactile experience playing it...it's like a Hammond B-3, or an acoustic piano...there's just this magical connection between the keybed (not even velocity sensitive, mind you) and the sound, also between the sliders and how the sound responds...it's almost like an "acoustic" instrument in the way it feels and plays, and that's probably why they are in big demand on the second hand market, bringing in some ridiculously high prices, although, some people just have to have the real thing at almost any cost.

I nearly sold it a while ago, but my studio buddy took it, gave me the money I needed at the time, kept it in the studio, and eventually sold it back to me for the same amount.

Arturia certainly have nailed the overall sound pretty close, but, it's not going to have the same feeling as playing the real deal, with it's quirks and limitations...that's half the fun.

Ian