I think I have lots of friends here...some like me better than others.

What if I posted music that just didn't get the job done...BAD
work that just showed marginal talent/ability?

What would be the proper response from someone who liked me but hated the music I posted? Say I missed a really important passing chord. Or, I couldn't carry a tune in a large bucket.

What would the proper response be?

Russ

Interesting subject

PS ... Steve ... FYI ... apparently I was writing this as you were posting your response ...

I always try to acknowledge 'live' musicians with a tip ... especially if they play well ...

I guess what I'm trying to say is I would use diplomacy.

Gary

[

Hi All,

Frank Callahan in Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood)says "a man need to know his limitaions"
Tony

How about this for constructive criticism - Clint's Dirty Harry name is "Harry," thus the movie title "Dirty Harry."

Just havin' fun with you, Tony,

Gary

Frank Callahan
http://www.onemanband.com.au/index-2.html

When I came off the bandstand I searched my friends for their opinions -- I really did not want to hear how great I was my pride was doing a good job with that one.(grin) I wanted to hear where I could improve, how could we do it better.

John C.

I've thought of posting a really marginal piece as a joke/test to see what happens.

I sincerely appreciate your honest response.


Russ

Donny, my point EXACTLY, said in a lot fewer words.

R.

90% of the time people listen & are just trying to be nice or don't say anything at all avoiding banning

Actually Russ IS a great musician, and you're not bad either Boo.
The reason I listen to posts here is NOT to see how good someone is, or if they are missing chords. I listen to hear what the various arrangers sound like when used as I use them.
I'm afraid these kinds of posts will prevent too many people from showing me what their keyboards sound like.
I don't post songs here to show you guys how many chords I know. If I post one it's generally because someone asks how that PA3X, or whatever board I currently have, sounds. I get plenty of (usually positive) feedback from my live audiences, five nights a week, year after year.
Now, come on down Boo, and I'll show you how to dumb yourself down enough to play old Hank songs.
DonM

The hosts on the show marveled about the entertainer, the song etc. and the damn guitar wasn't even in tune with itself. How disgusting and embrassing. I couldn't believe it.

Nigel, I think one of the benefits of sticking around here is the chance to learn MUSIC...any and all things pertaining to music. That would certainly include changes, passing chords, inversions...anything to make player/performers better. Info shared could be about keyboards, software, music theory, performance tips...it's all been posted here and appreciated.

Learning from each other...isn't that a big part of what being a musician is all about?

Russ

My two cents (for what it's worth) . . .

When I first joined Synthzone over 12 years ago, I too had hoped the discussions included more about music theory (scales, chords, chord progressions, chord substitutions, chord extensions, on bass/pedal, arranger orchestration, etc), as well as arranger keyboard specific "playing" technique. When I initially brought up rootless jazz chord voicings, I was poo-poo'ed and even accused by a few members of coming off like an elitist snob, so gave up any idea of this place being anything else other than an informative, and often combative 'gear debate' forum. I suspect the reason could be the membership's extreme variance of music background, experience, and education. I also discovered early on that being a 'Pro' musician here doesn't necessarily reflect one's musicianship skill level.

I for one want to continually improve as a musician, so it will be interesting to find out how many others here are really seriously interested in becoming better arranger keyboard players, or simply content maintaining the status quo, whatever level it may currently be (from beginner to advanced).

OK, Let’s start here:
Use Roman numbers for the step of the scales so that when we refer to Roman # I we will be referring to the first step of a scale. Use the same method for all scales.

EX. Key of C Major
C=I D=II E=III F=IV G=V A=VI B=VII
Key of F major
F=I G=II A=III B=IV C=V D=VI E=VII

I can now state that the most used progression is
V to I G to C in the key of C. C to F in the key of F.

Look through your lead sheets for V to I progressions. The V7 chord is normally used instead of a V chord. In the key of C Major it would be G7 to C instead of G to C. The seventh gives a strong feeling of movement.

Like I said in my post, just one thought, and then slowly build on it. This will give people a chance to absorb and research.

John C.

One more comment to 124. Do yourself a big big favor if you're serious about learning, and buy the "Real Fake Book" the "jazz version. Google for it. Start with the simple tunes and as you progress work with the more complicated songs.

Purchase the plain simple version of BIAB. Type the chords in and play along after you get a bit familiar with a few songs in the fake book.

It would take Russ 150 years to teach you on this forum what you will learn in a month with the fake book if you know how a chord is structured. If you don't know how to build a chord, you’ll need to learn to play the scale and go up a second octave and find the 9th note the 11th note the 13th note so on and so forth. Then you’ll understand how a chord is structured and it will be easier to figure out the b9, #9, b5, #5 etc.

For example, for C9 play C, E, G and D. . . for C79 add the Bb for the dominate 7th or B natural for a CM7,9. Incidentally usually when you see C9 most of the time it will call for the dominant or the flatted 7th if that’s what you want to call it.

Forget about inversions, rootless chords etc. until you learn how to form a straight up chord. You can learn the inversions, rootless and such after you began to understand chord structure. You have to learn how to form the chords first. You can’t run until you learn to walk right?

I don't know any other simpler way to explain this. I taught a friend this theory almost 40 years ago in 8 hours in one day. The next day he is not a pianist, but he’s singing and playing the chords to “I Left My Heart In SF.” He figured it out on his own just after he understood basic chord structure. He wasn't a rocket scientist and only had a little knowledge playing a trumpet and he didn't do that very well.

I always claimed that if you can count to 13 and you’re really interested, I can teach you this at a piano in a very short time.

In western style music, ( I’m not talking country music), there are only 13 notes. So, in reality then you just start talking another octave. This is really pretty simple if you figure it out mathematically.

This system will not work if you want to be a concert pianist. If that’s the case forget what I said here and hire a great concert pianist to teach you. Warning if you do the concert pianist thing, hire a teacher and learn to read music, there’s a more than 90% chance you won’t be able to jam. Usually at a jam session there isn’t any sheet music available.

If you can't count to 13 then you're hopeless. Ha ha! (Pun intended.) I hadn't met any one lately who couldn't count to 13.

If anyone wants to, please email me. I don’t know everything neither does anyone else. I’m willing to share what I am able to share. Thanks for putting up with me again.

124, I just put the info for building chord structure for ones who may not know the basics.

You know there were many mistakes in the old fake books that we had to buy on the black market years ago. Not so, with the new legal ones printed today. There may be a mistake here or there but nothing like the old books

You'd be surprised how much you will progress if you work with one. As you start to use the more complex tunes, you’ll get exactly what many musicians are looking for. That's a feel for and a knowledge of how everything comes together. You'll see how one tune relates to another tune with similar chord structure.

For example: One day you may be working on a tune in the key of C and figure out that where there is an E7 chord coming up you may want to try a Bm7 or a Bm7b5 right before the E7 chord. Why? Because a month back you actually ran across this E7 chord in another tune where the Bm7 or Bm7b5 was written into the chord structure just before the E7 in the same key of C.. This happens all over the place in all the different keys. The Bm7 or Bm7b5 in this instance would be the "Passing chord. The E7 is the primary chord.

"Maybe the person who wrote this song that you're working on now, really didn't understand chord structure and was just copying the chords from a another song that he was familiar with that some "country song writer wrote. Ha ha! (This will get DonM commenting again. Incidentally, it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to copy DonM's attitude. Man he has thick skin. I think that's why he is more popular here than the rest of us!!))

I hope that I’m explaining all of this right. I know when my high school teacher sat down and showed me at the piano for maybe 10 minutes this number system for figuring out how to build a chord, it was like someone opened a huge barn door in my head. And guess what? I’m not a pimple on a rocket scientist’s A$$.

Man I hope one serious minded learning musician on this forum gets something out of all of this posting. I'd consider the time that we spent well worth it and a success.

I guess I look at this a bit differently than some. In my case, I'm a performer/entertainer/singer that uses a keyboard. I'm NOT a musician, I never claimed to be a musician, I didn't come to an Arranger Keyboard Forum to learn the basics of music - I came here a decade ago to learn about Arranger Keyboards and what makes them tick.

When I arrived I was greeted by Uncle Dave, DNJ, Fran, Boo, and a few others. I learned a lot from them - no doubt about it. Within the same year I had the opportunity to visit with all of the above members, with the exception of Boo, who invited me to go fishing with him in Colorado. I went to New Jersey and Philadelphia to see all of them perform, look at their sound systems, and learned a lot more about improving myself as an entertainer. It was a wonderful experience that was repeated on several occasions.

A few years later I traveled to the sunny south, drove more than 5,000 miles, and met up with Joe Waters from PSR-Tutorial and his beautiful wife. From their home in Virginia, my wife and I traveled to North Carolina to meet up with The Pro, (Jim), then to northern Florida, where we watched several other OMB performers ply their trade.

South Florida is where Eddie (btweengigs) entertains at various animal clubs and does an outstanding job at keeping the dance-floor packed to capacity. We keep in touch on the telephone and internet every week. The southwest coast of Florida is where Charlie Ohram applies his magic to creating and modifying style files that he shares with the entire world. Charlie also has a huge collection of vintage organs and arranger keyboards that in some cases he completely restored.

I traveled northwest and met up with Scott Langholff and his wife, had an enjoyable dinner at a nearby restaurant, and talked about entertainment opportunities on the Florida Panhandle. We also met up with Diki and Randy (saxman), had a few margarettas, and had lots of laughs that evening.

The next stop was Bossier City, LA, where I witnessed a true master performing - Don Mason. Like most of the audience at Ernest's Restaurant that night, we were enjoying the wonderful music and songs Don performed, most of which was country, but there were other song styles as well. His wife Susan joined us a bit later on and we feasted on some traditional southern cuisine. I learned a lot from Don, and still keep learning from him. He IS the master of arranger keyboards.

I also got to meet HankB (Lurker), a great entertainer in his own wright, and we talked almost daily for years after I returned home. I also met a number of other wonderful musicians and entertainers including Bill Pittman (semilivemusic), Deane (hammer), and some of the regions best guitar players.

On the way home we stopped in Mississippi, met with Bill Gross and his wife, and Bill is a fantastic technician and keyboard player that knows Yamaha's operating systems inside and out. I learned a lot from Bill, and he says he learned a lot from me.

A few weeks after returning home we had a wonderful visit from TonyM and his beautiful wife Lydia. I fired up the gas grill, burned some fillet mignon, they got to meet my daughter and grandson and we had a fantastic evening. Later that month, TomG and his lovely wife came to town, they went with me to a nursing home job, I applied my culinary skills on the grill again, and after dinner they headed off for another visit in New Jersey.

Over the years I've talked several times with Scott Yee and Bill from Dayton on the telephone, and a couple of times Captain Russ has called. I've learned a lot from both of them.

This forum has always been one that I considered as informational and educational when it comes to arranger keyboards, sound systems, mics, and a host of other equipment utilized by both home and pro players. It's a place where a person can come and learn the ins and outs of arranger keyboards from individuals who play for a living, as well as those who just play for their own, personal enjoyment.

Now, there are some folks here that are highly skilled and trained musicians. Some attended world renown musical institutions, some spent years learning every aspect of music on their own, and these individuals can play every chord known to mankind. In the world of music, at least from my perspective, these are indeed rare individuals, especially when they have the ability and knowledge to utilize this knowledge to make a living. For this, they should be applauded.

Then, there are others here, a much larger category, of which I and many others fit into - entertainers. We're not great musicians, we can play a couple dozen chords, our right hand abilities vary, and a significant number of us cannot read a note. However, when we step up to the keyboard, we immediately gain the attention and adoration of our audiences, we get their toes tapping, they sing along with us, they pack the dance-floors. We get accolades from everyone, including other musicians who happen to be in the audiences, some come up ask about the equipment and rave about the music we produce with these wonderful tools. In more than 50 years of playing guitar and arranger keyboard, no one, not even some of the best musicians in the audiences, has ever come up to me and said "Hey, you missed those passing chords on the bridge of Unchained Melody and the song really sounded lousy because of it." (Forgot about the one time Bill From Dayton said something about playing a song in a chord that it was not originally written. That was several years ago.)

As an entertainer, I guess I've been somewhat successful. When I have a day off, which is rare, if the weather cooperates, I go sailing on the waters of Chesapeake Bay. I get to take my grandson hiking, fishing, boating, and spend some time shooting wildlife photos. When the weather's really nasty, such as today, 101-degres, 100-percent humidity, I'll spend time learning a new song, one that I like but have never performed. I'll usually record the song, listen to myself, then spend time refining the song until I feel it can be used on stage.

I'll check in on the Synthzone, PSR-Tutorial, Sailnet, look at some of the posts, then go to work on something. This has been a daily routine for a decade and it probably won't change anytime soon. Tonight, I'll be performing at an upscale retirement community for about 120 people, I'll probably miss lots of passing chords, I'll have a ball, my audiences will have a ball, the dance-floor will be filled and with luck I'll have a Conga-Line snaking through the room and out into the corridors while playing and singing Hot Hot Hot.

I'm not really sure if this addresses the OP, but in some respects I get the feeling it was directed at me, and others, that have recently posted excerpts from musical performances. I sincerely hope not, but it sure seems that way to me. If that was the case, I'm glad you took time to watch the videos, and hope those that did watch them learned something from intent of the post, which was to show how a $29 video camera can be a beneficial tool at improving performances.

Gotta' go to work,

Gary

No time to defend myself Boo. I'm working every night and playing golf or fishing every day, just as a musician should!
I think I played a flatted 12th note tonight, but not certain. It was what is known as an accidental. Sure hope somebody noticed it.
DonM

I guess that comment is supposed to be dry, satirical, British humor, Tony.

Gary