Excellent responses. I really appreciate it. Part 2:

If you could design your own TOTL Arranger Workstation, what CONTENT(Voices, Styles, Mutipads, Music Finder, etc) would it it have?


Thanks for taking the time to read and respond...

Regards,

Steve Deming

voices : More SA and SA2 voices, also more edit options and finally some topline piano sounds. A new synth engine for really fat synth sounds.

Styles : more lively, if you could add part of the Karma technollogy to the styles they would be so much alive. On top of that i would love to have more styles that give that lively feeling we know from Ketron, so the next style engine could also use some audio parts. I.e. styles need a lot of work and not all sound like typical Yamaha but also have a lot o styles with a less pollished more alive sound.

pads : it should be possible to transpose the pad based on the chords played in real time.

More Modern/Current Styles: Rock, Club/Dance, Pop
Drop the annoying noise effect(squeaky sound)on the electric guitars moving from one fret to the other.
It is way to much and unnatural. Even when I hit the same key a few times, the sound occurs which is physically not possible on a guitar.
Plus you can not hear it in a recording or on stage with a real guitar.
I love how Yamaha makes styles that fit a lot of songs. Please keep that.
Styles and drums could be more live sounding.
Update the older Sounds/Instruments to at least live or cool voices.
A nice SA2 Fender Strat would be great.
Thank you for listening.
Eric

I think you still need a better piano... And why is the likes of the Motif or Roland Fantom have a much deeper sound.. Richer/fuller sound... Is the internal amp better or something like that... No matter what speakers I use the T4 cannot come close to those keyboards..... thanks Ron

as others have said, better representation of modern music styles -- reggaeton, house, etc.,

integrate an arpeggiator with the arranger functions -- for generating multi-pad-type backing sequences on the fly.

finally, and mainly: upgrade the keybed of the middle/upper range (S710, S910): it's almost criminal to offer all this sound-shaping and arranging power and then yoke it to a basic, ie, not terribly musical, keybed. even the Korg PA500 has better feeling keys than the 910.

More orchestral movie/soundtrack styles! Just update the rock/pop/dance/country/etc. sections with some current songstyles.

A better piano is always welcome.

I would like to see a combination of the loop and arpeggiator features from keyboards like the MoXF combined with the normal arranger functions from the Tyros series. They are quite different in sound, and functionality, but I feel that unless we want to lose the younger generation to WS's altogether, at some point or another (the sooner the better, as far as I am concerned) we need to be more inclusive.

On the other hand, perhaps the arranger's directed loop flow paradigm could become better implemented in the WS's, and Yamaha can let arrangers slip further and further into tools for only the elderly to make music on...

You need to find whoever designed the original DJX (not the awful MkII) and have him design something using this century's synth and arranger technology. Then stand back while the orders flow in!

Ditto!

Thanks for listening.. I would want:

1)More of the SA/SA2 voices. I agree with Tostie...more of Orchestral content.

2)Taking a cue from Apple`s Garage Band,a easy loop based software(PC/MAC/IOS/Android) to create Yamaha style accompaniments. Yes the TOTL should incorporate audio into the styles a la Audya. Users can then create their own arrangements very easily and quickly.

3)More styles, voices, multipads, registration etc. available on the musicsoft website for download. Expansion pack was a good move. But offering a wide variety of sounds and styles from different parts of the world means users can choose what they really need rather than buying a pack and using only some of it.

More free play styles suited to orchestral, movie and classical music. More movie orchestral and classical styles. Ability to randomly mix patterns of parts of two (or more) different styles in real time - or for Yamaha to create such styles. More melodic pads built to offer a countermelody to the styles - such as the current String Ballad - but applicable to more styles.

Steve,

I'm actually quite surprised Yamaha has not developed a Drum Voice Pack for the Tyros 4? I would love to see some more Motif drum voices in the Tyros 4.

Styles:
Contemporary Jazz - Think Rippingtons, Pat Metheny, Fourplay
Country - more two step, Cajun, Contemporary Country Rock
Contemporary Pop - keep up with the current hits / beats

MusicFinder:
Hits of the 2000's
Hits of the 90's
Hits of the 80's
Doo Wop
Oldies
Big Band Era
Current Hits

I have a really important recommendation. As a customer of styles at Yamahamusicsoft.com, I feel very strongly that Yamaha should offer at a reduced price upgraded versions of styles.

Let's say that I purchased for a T4 all of the Yamaha Premium styles at your website. Then you come out with a new keyboard, a T5 or something, and you start coming out with newer versions of these styles that take advantage of all of the new voices and dsps. Why should I have to pay $8.95 for each of these styles when I've already shelled out hundreds of dollars? It's not fair. I've been a great customer. Maybe I shouldn't get the upgraded style for free, but $8.95???

You have a record at your website of the customer's purchase history. All you would have to do is offer an option to upgrade for $1, $2, $3. But $8.95?????

Valid point Beaky, I agree. Where are the member or club privileges and Loyalty programs?

A low cost Yamaha micro arranger similar to the popular Korg MicroArranger

A new, perhaps a black, PSR-S9xx arranger lineup with more SA Voices

A chord sequencer on any new arranger would be nice.

Question for Yamaha.
Do you want to build TOTL for home players, or do you want to build an arranger for professional user who would want to do indepth editing????

You would probably want them to be one thing with one keyboard but that is not even close.
For pro players:
No speakers please.
I don't think we need audio loops, but only if you provide great drums(bfd2,superior drummer,addictive drums)
Same thing with bass and the other tracks
More control when we play live.Not every hall or restaurant/bar is the same.

More modern beats,otherwise you are killing arrangers from inside.

In depth synth engine(more than one)

Sliders or knobs,buttons that you can make it to your liking
better midi editing.
Some of these things are not new,every synth has them for 10-29 years.

I could go on and on with these things.

Perhaps the issue of pro editing vs. amateur OOTB friendliness could be addresses by having COMPUTER controlled in-depth editing, while the arranger itself stays fairly simple?

All that is needed is a file format that would allow the computer to read the styles, Performances, Voice data, Sampler data, etc., and then you could get into the nitty gritty without making the arranger itself over-complex.

I am pretty sure that most pro's that wanted all this degree of control would be willing to pony up a couple of hundred dollars or so for it, so there would be no need to raise the base price of the Tyros for features few would use.

And, let's face it... SOMEWHERE there must already be these kind of software tools floating around, because SOMEONE designs the voices, creates the Styles, edits the sounds, and does all the detail work YOU can't currently access. Converting it for public access would not be half the task of creating it from scratch.

I totally agree with this...the Motif has iPad Apps that let you do sound design off of the keyboard. I have PC tools for the Korg Kronos that also let you do sound design on the PC. Yamaha has Voice design for the Tyros 4 with a PC application as well. They just need to bulk it up a bit. Most arranger players would not get this deep into the sound engine, i'm afraid.

Content... Isn't it about time that American music got the love and attention that even schlager gets?!

Country... Zydeco... Second Line... Cajun... Grunge... Classic Rock... New Wave... Ska-punk... Tejano... Americana...

Genre after genre with little to no styles available, and then the arranger companies wonder why arranger sales fall flat in the US? Imagine how few sales in the EU would happen if schlager and sing-along stuff were equally scarce?

And don't even get me started on how even LESS attention is paid to MODERN US based styles. Sure, yes, you are going to need those loop and arp features incorporated to do them REALLY well, but even with today's arrangers, something that players under 30 might want is scarce!

However, I still believe that the primary reason for all this boils down to how easy the arranger manufacturers have made style piracy. I am convinced that, were it possible to actually get PAID for each and every style that gets used, 3rd party style creators would fill ANY stylistic gap the manufacturers leave. But who wants to go through the hassle and time it takes to create a GREAT style when you can make but a small percentage from it compared to how many players are actually PLAYING your style?

Few.... from what I can see.

Hi Diki

Good to see you back posting again.

The problem with style protection is that if you do it then everybody starts’ moaning that it impedes there freedom to do with styles (That they have paid for) what they want.

In addition they moan when manufactures and 3rd parties do not produce many new styles, so whatever the manufacture does will always be wrong, (There dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t) personally I think protection is the best way.

As to American styles, then there are no American style produces, and so all American styles are produced in Europe or Japan, whereas if you look at Europe and Japan they have their own style production houses, so there is no shortage in style development. The only way Americans are going to get the styles they want is to follow Europe & Japan and produce them in their own country.

The fact that Americans are not prepared to produce their own work is the main reason why little notice is taken of them during arranger development, (These are the first threads in years that may actually be noticed) so come on you lot over the pond, get out and start developing. (You do it for Workstations and DAWs so there is no excuse)

Bill

I think that pretty much all that,s required has been covered, for me importantly, as you can see from Ketron users, we want either a professional keyboard for live use, or better a module you ca use with any midi control keyboard. Don't need touch screens iPad's have this hands down. 76 keys, lightweight, no inbuilt speakers, vst inclusion for sounds, styles and editing, but most importantly, bring the arranger into the mainstream. I mean thousands of muso's use arrangers for their living, so let's get those synth guys looking at it and saying "hey this is great" instead of mmm, well you know.a Styles we need a box that gives us the option of what we want, instead of what we get. Make the option of preload or connect and download. A fab live feel, I think sometimes we forget that a great 3 piece can be fabulous, not overdoing styles gives it a better live feel, once again some kind of vst arranger would be great. Allow all sa2,s to be used in duplicated ways, instead of the limitations placed as they are. Sounds like streaming from the Kronos wstation gigs of beautifull samples in real time, could go on for miles, but lastly agree that a sdk for programmers for styles should protect them, thus allowing many more varied and better style making.

Overall ( not just content)
- ribbon controller and breath controller input ( this will be the only KB they need for oMB or band Live/Seq)/maybe a few sonds from VL7 ( addition to onboard sample playback synthesis) wouldn't hurt
- better harmonizer
-76 keys/no apeakers yet smaller foot print and light ( I know that roland does it well)
- 2 XLR /combo inputs with sepatare EFX processing ( one for vocals and the other for guitar) ( True OMB player, plays a Mid file, with realtime harmonies using midi or style track,while s playing guitar putting thru the KB's 2nd channel , clean guitar (during verse) EFX becomes dis/dlk EFX ( like automated efx)when you go to (chorus/solo part ) without worring about steping on pedals. True one man band heaven. ( harmonies and guitar solos without button pushing).

-Non spaceship design ( I still like Dx7 type clean look, Pa 3x did a good job.T4 still looks funny.

-black or gray color
- song book like features and chord sequencer without double button pressing

- still manage to put under 35-7 Ibs

-simple arps/filer sweep knobs on board ($ 200 E403 has it)

-Aduio tracks will be great ( at least drums)

-More Trio or 4 piece styles for Ac pop/rock/El rock/reggae/soft with more contemporary yet simple/not too busy drumming

- better quality hard smooth thin yet strong plastic ( faster going back to zero) wheels (Moog/Dx7 type) than can be sticky rubber wheels
.Joustick/vector would'nt hurt either for style morphoring/remixes

Thanks for asking. i don'r see Roland/Korg is doing it.

OMG, two posts from Diki and I'm agreeing with both of them!!! LOL, just kidding man, I always respect your opinion.

I never understood why Yamaha never came out with a US version arranger? Or at least a US version USB chock full of Styles, multipads, registrations for American Music. They have Oriental units, and UK units?

They should do the same for Latin music. Latin has such international appeal yet good Latin styles (especially contemporary) are hard to come by.

Steve, thanks for asking!

Obviously we won't get everything, but some great suggestions have been made.

Tyros X Module
Style libraries as add-ons: C&W, Latin, Bigband, Pop, Rock, etc. If you don't play it, don't buy it!
Improved Vocalizer:
Audio drums, and guitars,

Most important to me!
It's time for Yamaha, or someone, to move into the 21st century.
We need "talking keyboards" i.e. synthesized speech capabilities to read menus and help navigate the instrument.

I know for a fact that there are many blind and/or visually impaired musicians who would benefit greatly from this.

Sell it as an option, as has been suggested above. If you don't need it, don't buy it.

We've had talking watches, calculators, phones, elevators, scales, thermometers, and so on, for years. How hard can it be?

Thanks again!
Don P

You'll get NO argument from me, Latin is huge right now (always has been).

Abacus... I think it would be possible to have an unaddressed section of memory where edits of 3rd party styles could be stored in. I mean, if you can have an area for putting the style in in the first place (so it can't be connected to a computer and whisked away to be shared) then that same area of the OS could also store the user's edits...

But bottom line, I think that even if you could do NOTHING to the style itself other than the parameters in your Performance, I think the benefit in an explosion of CONTENT would outweigh the disadvantages in not being able to edit it as fully as a ROM style.

Think how few REALLY edit their styles much now... I don't think the few power users would diminish the return from the majority who JUST WANT NEW HIGH CLASS STYLES!

All anyone wants to do, as a style creator, is make enough money at it to make it worth the time. To match the quality of the ROM styles takes a LOT of it. The current trend in file sharing has made it close to impossible for most to achieve ANY reasonable reward for their efforts. And so... the ONLY time we see high quality new styles in any quantity (the meager offerings by Yamaha don't really count, as few and far between and, TBH as bland and generic as they are) is when a brand new arranger comes out, and the cost of the styles is paid for by the price of the arranger. But protected 3rd party styles, I am quite sure, would lead to an explosion of content, including the genres we have all mentioned.

After, the DEMAND is there. Now all we need to do is monetize the SUPPLY. Basic economic theory.

Hi Diki

As I said in my post I am all for protection and your suggestion would work fine with no need to disable the editing functions.

The point I was making is that a lot of people expect something for nothing, and so are perfectly happy to buy 1 style and then give it away free, (With others doing the same) combine this with all of them complaining if a manufacture prevents them from doing it, and manufactures tend to shy away from the idea.

To gauge SZ member’s thoughts I have set up a poll for all of them to vote which they prefer.

It should be interesting to see the results

The pole can be found here

Bill

I personally think there are already more then enough styles on the market for almost any kind of music....plus with an arranger you can edit them all till your hearts content or even make your own from scratch if your a good enough player. Most of "today's music styles" are way beyond using an arranger KB solo....after all most of it is all done on computer to start with. I would stockpile what already out there as in years to come arr Kb's will slowly dissolve as will the generations IMO.

No matter WHAT features the next TOTL arranger has, people are going to complain that it is "too little" or "too much" ... SO how about a menu based arranger, basic in nature, with ALL types of bells and whistles that can be downloaded at the heart's desire and expense of the purchaser ...

Originally Posted By: abacus
Following on from another thread

Question:

Would you be prepared to pay for professionally designed styles knowing that you would only be able to use them on your own keyboard? (Protected)

Or do you believe that once you have bought them, then you should be able to do with them whatever you want, (Unprotected) including giving them away.

It will be interesting to see the results

Bill


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This was a message I just posted in the protected styles thread, very applicable to this one as follows:

I did say protect them, as if they can't be protected then we end up with overpriced styles, and a lot of ordinary ones. The only thing that you must be able to do is alter the style to suit your use, could be a problem re protection.

Although Apple seem to have it beaten with apps. Imagine if you could programme styles with a guarantee of security, prices should fall and quality should improve. As a matter of fact I can't understand why Yamaha , Korg, Roland and Ketron can't come up with a universal style development that conforms to all new hardware, so you could choose what you want, at a price, and wht you don't want with great protection built in for the developers, not to mention the extra bucks that they reap...

Mmmmm food for thought.. Let's face it they did it with midi, it's a great plan, and I can't see why they couldn't see that not only would each manufacter sell styles to their own, but also to other brand owners of different makes. Some may say could be that then all we would see would be bland, I say look at iTunes/ apps, going through the roof and every day better and better, so I think that argument wouln't hold true.

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Edited by Robbo (April, 27 2012 02:09 AM)

Montunoman is right on -- the Latin/Brazil styles are key, and they're one reason Yamaha lost a sale recently. I needed an arranger for a quick turnaround project w/ several bossa nova cues. I tested the current 910 and also S650 and A2000. found them all a bit lacking.

I liked the "idea" of the flash memory expansion options BUT I couldn't believe how poorly supported this feature is: I wanted to make sure the Brazil expansion would work in A2000, and made 4 different inquiries (via web & phone support) and am still waiting for an answer. if these packs are indeed the future for Yamaha, it is essential that questions of compatibility are resolved -- and made clear on web, etc. -- before the products are sold.

just my two centavos

Tom Moon, the T4 has some nice Bossa's. I use them to play The Wave - Joubim

Have you looked at the T4 style list to check if there are some there you can use?

Hi Tom- did you end up getting an arranger for your Bossa Nova project? Actually I think the Yamaha Bossa Novas are pretty good (at least for a smooth type bossa) As much as I love Ketron Latin styles, I kind of like the Yamaha Bossa Novas better. I haven't heard the Yamaha Brazilian Expansions- I hope it good and they make more expansions for other Latin styles too- Modern Bachata,Reggaeton, Merengue,Cumbia, Salsa, Cumbia...

I think the ability to display PDF's, and use them just like TEXTS files can be used. This way, all music and or lyrics can be on the Hard drive. 1 less thing to carry and worry about/

Second that!

YES!!!

Thing is, Donny, take a look at that list of genres I mentioned. Do you do ANY of them? How big is your zydeco repertoire? Do ANY ska-punk? LOL

While what YOU do seems to be very well covered by the available styles, there are MANY of us that find huge gaps in the available pro quality styles, or find what IS available to be less than stellar in authenticity. And, let's face it... how many of us have EVER created a truly ROM quality style all by ourselves? User created styles are, on the whole a pretty rough bunch compared to the quality that you find in the ROM. It is nowhere NEAR as easy as you seem to think (have you ever truly tried?).

But the guys that make the ROM styles for the Majors... well, they are pretty much sitting around on their duff for usually at least a year or more (two or three for TOTL arrangers). Now, if they could make 100% of the money for selling styles, instead of the pittance they get because of file sharing, don't you think they would be churning them out like hotcakes? After all, how many TOTALLY new styles do you usually get in a new arranger? 10%? 15%? Two or three YEARS just to make a handful? These guys got time on their hands!

Protected files would allow them to work 24/7 and actually make a living.

Abacus, sorry, but if you buy a style and give a copy to a friend, you are NOT 'giving what you paid for away'. If you no longer USED the style, and gave or sold it to a friend, then OK... But to KEEP the style AND give it away robs the creator of a sale. The thinking like this is what has made the whole problem in the first place. When a piece of SOFTWARE is sold to you, it is sold for YOU to use. Not you, and your 10,000 closest friends..!

Not sure what you are going on about here Diki? as it seems to be what I said in my origional post, just not in so many words.

Bill

Did anyone mention 'live drums'. Really take a back seat vs the other brands....

I loved the T4 bossa/Latin styles and would have snagged one if they weren't so high priced.
I could make the basic styles from the 910 work just fine too...and would have done that except a friend lent me his Korg microarranger and those worked fine. (they're busier than Yamaha but well programmed, imho). if Yamaha offered a similar product I'd buy immediately.
re the Voice/Style expansion Yamaha has for the 650 and A2000, they did offer a Brazil pack initially. apparently it was only compatible w/ the 650 and not the A2000. it was not listed when I went back to the site the other day. why, Yamaha?

Bill... sorry, yes. Upon a more careful look at the post, I think I DID misconstrue what you were trying to say.

My apologies.

If I designed an arranger with today's standards it would have a 10" Color touchscreen,2-5 gigs sampler and sampling ram,style converter and downward compatible software built-in,ribbon controller and one really big thing that YAMAHA has forgotten THE BREATH CONTROLLER, bring back the input and the BC3, I can't understand it, BC3 was a big hit,still, in big demand and YAMAHA stops producing it? weight is a big issue also, should be light cause we aren't getting any younger, how about LIVE DRUMS? basically all arrangers are just a rehash of previous models nothing that is a real innovation, people are tired, how long can you re-invent the tire? maybe AI in the style playing?

Arranger + KARMA = perfection

There is no perfection....ever !

+1

I would think that yamaha should not spare a dime and put simply the very best piano sound they can make on their new TOTL.
It is the first thing lot of people try, flawless and rich piano sound.
If a brass or guitar is not the top notch that can be excused. But it seems for yamaha the piano sound sampling stopped somewhere in 2000s and all money go to making other sounds.

I agree, the pianos should be a lot better.

Another thing that I hate on my Tyros 2 is that it is almost impossible to read the screen in direct sunlight. Outdoor gigs are almost impossible.