Perhaps Larry, but you have to wonder if Hillary would have met the same kind of unprecedented partisanship and outright obstructionism that Obama has had to endure for his entire presidency. Maybe. Don't forget, she had even less success trying to get a health care bill passed. I don't think we've ever before seen idealogues wield so much power or the Republican party be SO far right. Obviously, some of it stems from the inability of many in this country to accept Obama as president, no matter what kind of job he does. That's not going to change in the foreseeable future (sad, but true). Because of that (not that he is otherwise perfect), it is possible that Hillary may have been able to get more done. However, it is my belief that the Limbaugh's and Beck's of this world, combined with the residual sexism in this country, would have been just as relentless in their efforts to destroy her as they have been with Obama.

That said, I think she has been a terrific Sec'y of State and probably would have made a good, possibly a great, president. Had Obama not been in the race, I would have been a strong supporter, but as a Black man, I felt obligated to try to strike a blow against racism in this country by helping to elect an EQUALLY QUALIFIED candidate become the country's first Black president. I thought (wrongly) that this might start an attitudinal shift that might finally start us down a road to more racial tolerance; instead it just started the 'Tea Party'. Oh well.

chas

I'm not a loyal party line voter. Gore turned me off. This isn't very fair to say but the best way I can put it is he gave me the same feeling that actor Jon Lovitz does. Gore seemed to have a BS answer for just about everything. Remember, he didn't even carry his own home state.

To this day, I think he's a stuffed shirt/used car salesman.

In a broader view, I felt the Country could use a step back to the Right at that time as well. I do remember standing in the voting booth and saying (I thought to myself but apparently not as the lady next to me laughed when I said it.) "Which pile of [potty mouth] do I want this time?"

Chas-

I agree that Clinton has been an excellent SOS. I think in some ways, her Presidency might've been less demonized. I think her policies would've been similar at the end of the day, but one big difference would been her discipline.

While her campaign badly lacked that quality, I think she's smart as a whip. I've lost track of how many times President Obama has committed an unforced error. The "Cambridge police acted stupidly" without knowing the facts, not putting his hand over his heart at a campaign stop in Iowa in '08, even using the word "redistribution" to Joe the Plumber, inviting Common to the WH for the Poetry thing, Waiting so long to put out his long form birth certificate, etc.

I like Obama, but for how smart this guy is he's done some awfully dumb things.

Hillary would not have made those same gaffs, I think....

Bill, I think most of the 'mistakes' you attribute to Obama are the actions of someone who, at the time, may not have been as politically savvy as some of his more 'seasoned' colleagues. Which of his so-called 'mistakes' do you think, has impacted his ability to govern? BTW, I consider the 'Cambridge' incident a true gaff; inviting Common to the WH (under the circumstances in which he was invited), not so much. Finding out the TRUTH about Joe the Plumber kinda reduced that whole thing to joke status. As far as 'redistribution', why SHOULD 1% of the population control most of the nation's wealth (and STILL get tax breaks). I believe in capitalism, but isn't that kind of ridiculous? I think the Republican party has done a MASTERFUL job of convincing a large segment of poor, undereducated, dimwits that they need to stand up for the rights of the very rich. As Don King would say, "Only in America" (or P.T. Barnum - 'there's a sucker born every day').

chas

Chas-

Other than music, my formal education is in marketing. Those miscues I cited above distorted his message to voters. In several cases, thanks to conservative media, he's surrendered way too many 24 hour news cycles. Its undisciplined and there's a price tag for blurring your message.

Obama's success in '08 came on the backs of, in many ways, independent voters. All this noise, while not substantive, hurts him. I call it death by a thousand paper cuts.

I think all of those errors can be explained away, but every time he does one of those, it costs him X number of votes. His electoral path to re-election I think, will be much harder this time than last, in spite of the traditional advantages a siting POTUS usually enjoys...

A sitting POTUS also has some disadvantages (think 'W', second term), such as the current state of the economy which he may or may not have contributed to, the unemployment rate, the national debt, unpopular legislation that happened on his watch (even if it proves to become popular in the long term - ex. medicare and social security), unpopular military engagements (with only 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' options), and let's not forget the whimsy of the Media. Let's not forget Bush Senior with a 92% approval rating just months before he lost to Billy Bob. America is nothing if not unpredictable. Still, I think a lot depends on who the Republicans choose, and how acceptable that person is to independents (who will end up being the 'deciders'). Despite some low points in it's history, I still don't think America is ready to appoint a Newt Gingrich or a Sarah Palin or a Michelle Bachmann, as President of the United States. They ain't THAT stupid.

BTW, enjoy the exchange of opinions. Waiting for Larry to jump in here .

chas

All too often, Americans vote for personality, rather than smarts. True Brush is the kind of guy one would like to have a beer with, but it sure is not a reason to vote for him to be a leader of the free world. Gore was clearly the smarter most qualified candidate, but unfortunately too many voters did not like Gore's "personality".

BTW...Gore received 600,000 more votes than Bush, and Bush was appointed President by the Supreme Court, and if I have a criticism of Gore, he (like many Democrats) didn't fight for himself or those that voted for him. He did win Florida!

In my lifetime, to me Bush was the worst President EVER. I have quite a few friends and acquaintances who regretted their vote for Bush, including a father of a soldier lost in Iraq. Even more amazing was the Bush re-election in '04. Nobody ever said voters need to be smart, although I do consider Bill a very smart person

Chas and Bill, good points about Obama.

The perfect ticket would have been
2008
President Hillary Clinton
Vice President Barack Obama

2016 we would have had a still young Obama running for Pres.
Maybe by then the Media would have accepted a Black Guy as President...nahh, I'm dreaming

Side bar: I have ieSpell and during the spell check, I'm offered spelling substitutes for "Barack" and for "Obama".

That Spellchecker is clearly Republican .

chas

Poll says I'm a main street Republican. I found most of the questions to be too leading to the extremes of each point of view.
I'm a pro-life free thinker, and I support family values above all other political agendas. Not sure why I'm posting all this - I guess I hear too many Leftist statements in the entertainment industry ... I wanted a conservative to be heard, I guess. Before politics - it's the golden rule for me:
Treat your neighbor as you would yourself, and most of the worlds troubles will go a way!

OMG - Larry - it's a good thing we can still agree on the EAGLES!!!! We'd never be able to talk at dinner! LOL
Dave