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#311304 - 06/18/10 01:46 PM MSB/LSB = ?
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Guys.

Can someone please help me with this. I've asked Domenico but he's obviously busy doing something else.

All I want to know is how do you calculate the MSB/LSB values for a LSCP file.

Domenico sent me this ....
**************
MSB=121, LSB=2
LS Bank = MSB * 27 + LSB
= 121 * 27 + 2
= 121 * 128 + 2
= 15490
**************
But it means nothing to me. Where are the 27 and 128 values being pulled from, and why even calculate 121 * 27 + 2 when it has no bearing on the end value of 15490

Regards
James


[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#311305 - 06/18/10 03:43 PM Re: MSB/LSB = ?
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
OK... exhaustive research through terrible documentation tells me the following.

Part of the formula Domenico gave me is incorrect. Namely this part (LS Bank = MSB * 27 + LSB).

The formula is LS Bank = MSB X 128 + LSB
The value of 128 is a constant value that is based midi standards.

Also, Linux Sampler has automatic detection of MSB only, LSB only or full MSB+LSB so for the most part it doesn't matter which method you use, be it a straight number or a calculation based on the formula. However to avoid a possible problem in the future with a library that needs to use both MSB and LSB values, I will modify my LSCP Gen program to let people enter in the MSB and LSB values as normal and have LSCP Gen to all the calculations for you. This is something Linux Sampler itself can't do.

Regards
James

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#311306 - 06/18/10 05:00 PM Re: MSB/LSB = ?
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
maybe he means 0 to 127 and he is forgotten to write the 1?!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#311307 - 06/18/10 05:01 PM Re: MSB/LSB = ?
AFG Music Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 513
double post so deleted

[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 06-18-2010).]

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#311308 - 06/18/10 05:49 PM Re: MSB/LSB = ?
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi AFG Music.

Maybe, but that would still be incorrect. The value must be 128 as a bank contains 128 sounds and not 127.

In this case using numbering like 0-127 to reference 128 sounds will not work as sound 1 is 0 and 0 doesn't effect the sum of an equation.

So it's got to be 128 and this value must be a constant.

BTW..... the new YXG-GIGAT2 Library that Tastenpoint released is very likely full of errors. Straight away I can see all the drum sounds are referenced with the wrong values in the LSCP file, program values make no sense as large numbers of them are doubled up, and even the MSB+LSB values don't work out right when reverse calculated.

This is just another example of why making files manually or on the keyboard itself with Linux Sampler is a bad idea and always meet with a large degree of error. Every file currently available that has been manually written or created with Linux Sampler contains errors, including the official Lionstracs GM Bank and even the TXT files for VSTi's.

Attentions needs to be given to the work I'm doing on LSCP Gen. This is the only tool that guarantees the creation of libraries successfully, but I feel very frustrated right now as I'm left to discover how everything works in order to finish the program and get it working flawlessly.

Regards
James

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#311309 - 06/18/10 06:32 PM Re: MSB/LSB = ?
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3351
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
Hi AFG Music.

Maybe, but that would still be incorrect. The value must be 128 as a bank contains 128 sounds and not 127.

In this case using numbering like 0-127 to reference 128 sounds will not work as sound 1 is 0 and 0 doesn't effect the sum of an equation.

So it's got to be 128 and this value must be a constant.

BTW..... the new YXG-GIGAT2 Library that Tastenpoint released is very likely full of errors. Straight away I can see all the drum sounds are referenced with the wrong values in the LSCP file, program values make no sense as large numbers of them are doubled up, and even the MSB+LSB values don't work out right when reverse calculated.

This is just another example of why making files manually or on the keyboard itself with Linux Sampler is a bad idea and always meet with a large degree of error. Every file currently available that has been manually written or created with Linux Sampler contains errors, including the official Lionstracs GM Bank and even the TXT files for VSTi's.

Attentions needs to be given to the work I'm doing on LSCP Gen. This is the only tool that guarantees the creation of libraries successfully, but I feel very frustrated right now as I'm left to discover how everything works in order to finish the program and get it working flawlessly.

Regards
James


Sorry James, I meant to get back to this thread earlier, but this was a PC refresh morning

Only just got back online now.

Yes I was going to say that Domenico got the numbers slightly incorrect, but it DOES make all the difference....

I have not looked at the LSCP for the X-Giga banks yet, but I will now and see if I can help out with the re-writing....

Although perhaps wait until you update the LSCP program???

Cheers
Dennis

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#311310 - 06/18/10 07:27 PM Re: MSB/LSB = ?
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3351
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Irishacts:
OK... exhaustive research through terrible documentation tells me the following.

Part of the formula Domenico gave me is incorrect. Namely this part (LS Bank = MSB * 27 + LSB).

The formula is LS Bank = MSB X 128 + LSB
The value of 128 is a constant value that is based midi standards.

Also, Linux Sampler has automatic detection of MSB only, LSB only or full MSB+LSB so for the most part it doesn't matter which method you use, be it a straight number or a calculation based on the formula.
Regards
James


Actually that is pretty much the same as the Gm spec MSB only (controller 0) LSB only (controller 32) or the "Normal" method which is a combination of the two

I think though that the Linux Sampler (LS) simply looks at three values, well thats as far as I can see from all the LSCP files I have seen.

The neat thing about LS is you can put anything anywhere and as long as you give it the correct sequence of numbers it all works

Example :

DEFAULT BANK - HIGHER BANK - PATCH #

To use banks of Ketron patch banks for example:

Ketron bank 0, patch 1 - on the LS use 0 0 1, and then follow through t0 128.

Ketron bank 1, patch 1 - on LS use 0 1 1, and then follow through to 128.

Ketron bank 4, patch 1 - on LS use 0 4 1, and then follow through to 128.

I know it sounds simple, but then on LS, a lot of the functions ARE simple

I think we have been over-thinking it all, and it seems to me there is no calculations needed. Simply pick what basic bank you want to put the sound in, then what higher variation bank you want to put it in, and the the patch number within that bank itself.

The only BIG issue is making sure everyone follows the same numbering standard for a given GIGA bank/s.

This is where LSCP is a vital tool for everyone to use. It guarantees uniformity, so that all people need to do to run the same bank of Giga sounds, is to have the sounds in a folder and then use the same LSCP file to access them all.

I agree totally James we need, no its VITAL, if we are going to advance the Linux Sampler cause, that everyone is reading from the same page.

To do that, LSCP MUST be the default creation program.

Dennis

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#311311 - 06/19/10 01:07 AM Re: MSB/LSB = ?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 4533
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Hi James
Maybe this will help (MSB/LSB is under Control Change Messages) http://www.midi.org/techspecs/midimessages.php
Regards

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#311312 - 06/19/10 06:21 AM Re: MSB/LSB = ?
Irishacts Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1631
Loc: Ireland
Hi Dennis.

Quote:
Sorry James, I meant to get back to this thread earlier, but this was a PC refresh morning


No worries mate, I'm doing all this to support Lionstracs so it would be nice if Lionstracs put a system in place for developers like me to get access to the information we require quickly. Domencio should not have to answer all emails.

Quote:
I have not looked at the LSCP for the X-Giga banks yet, but I will now and see if I can help out with the re-writing....
Although perhaps wait until you update the LSCP program???

It's best to just wait until the next release of LSCP Gen as it will include many changes as well as support for true MSB + LSB, then again I'm sure Tastenpoint didn't do all that work for nothing so Lionstracs really need to get back onto those guys and get them to correct the LSCP File.

Quote:
Example :
DEFAULT BANK - HIGHER BANK - PATCH #
To use banks of Ketron patch banks for example:


Yes, that's how LSCP Gen does it right now, but according the the documentation on Linux Sampler, they call this method the MSB only method. To guarantee that there would be no problems in the future with some very odd library that needs to use both MSB and LSB, I will have to modify LSCP Gen to allow people to enter in sounds using MSB and LSB.

I've already spent all last night and this morning rewriting things. So I have it already calculating the merged MSB+LSB values now, and I'm just going back over everything now and cleaning up my code. I also need to add compatibility for the new 4.3 OS and multi LSCP files that Liosntracs added.

Again, I'm stuck for information on that. I believe there are 10 file names you can use now, but what are they and where is this written ?

Quote:
To do that, LSCP MUST be the default creation program.


Yep, that's how I feel on this. People are making too many mistakes and this is the only means to create the files correctly and create consistency. For example LinuxSampler does not calculate MSB+LSB values so Tastenpoint did manual calculations for each and every sound they add. This leaves huge room for error where if the time is take to explain the LSCP file format in detail to me, LSCP Gen can automate the process.



Regards
James

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#311313 - 06/19/10 10:39 AM Re: MSB/LSB = ?
tastenpoint.at Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 5
Loc: AUSTRIA
hi james,

the NEW YXGT2-GIG-cmp.lscp file version is ready. i dont know if domenico have it right now on his server....

now are working ALL T2 sounds inkl. SA/MV/drumeffects well..... ;-)

all yamaha-styles on live-arranger or q-ranger are running amazing - also all midifiles, NOT T3, only t2...

if you interested please send me your email adress....

regards
helmut

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