http://www.lionstracs.eu/downloads/bilder/virgin200.jpg

Its a picture of a pre production model, price range 11.400 euro for the smallest 13 pedal model up to 15.700 for the top model.

Forgetting technology for a moment and just focusing on design, this is by far one of the best looking organs I've seen. It looks new, modern and happening unlike other organs.

I generally find organ designs very cheesy as the materials used by others are nearly always very old fashioned and gaudy looking. Even the latest offerings by wersi look like something out of the 80's.

This new Lionstracs on the other hand is very slick looking and very modern in both design and technology. The uses of the two tones on the seat and stand, the glass panel in the side, the Lionstracs interface and panel. Looks like a very cool product, and knowing the technology it must now also be the most advanced Organ on the planet.

True Open Technology stuffed inside an organ.

Regards
James

I don't like the look to much,

It does not even come close to some of the Wersi organs..

Espescially the metalic look of the Lionstracs frontplate is very distracting to me.

Next to i really prefer my organs small like the Wersi abacus duo pro setup.

No worries.
We all have different tastes.

James.

I like aspects of both...
In fact...I am waiting to see what Korg announces on the next arranger.

Depending on what it is...I will take a 61 note version of it or a Yamaha T4...build my own cabinet, add the lower manual and pedals and have a modern organ setup.

The Virgin is cool, but too much $$ for me to spend.
I can also add a PC and have some of the open system sounds added in.

PS, it will most likely be the Korg as the MIDI implementation is much better.

Lee S.

I'm not exactly overawed by the design of it either. Maybe I just haven't even looked at organs in a while and am conditioned to single plank arrangers. Soundwise, I bet it's a killer, if one is prepared to work at it.

I think Lionstracs missed an opportunity to put registration buttons BETWEEN the manuals, like many TOTL organs have. That's a LONG way to go to get to the buttons if you are playing busy...

Likewise the pitch bend and modulation strips... This is one case where having a 61 at the top and a 76 underneath makes a lot of sense. It leaves room at the left of the 61 for the pitch bend and mod controls (and other stuff like articulation triggers, etc.. For an organist (straight ahead organist) this layout might work, but for a 'keyboard player' who uses performance controls far more, it's too much distance, IMO.

I agree about the registration buttons being to far away for a really smooth transition, however I like the pitch/bend feature on the the volume pedal.

Here it is.... live organ at youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b4qz_3amus

I'd prefer the bender on the lower manual...easier to get at than if it was on the upper keyboard.

Ian

But it would increase the width, and hence the weight, of the organ quite a bit. Most of the time, solo sounds, you'll be playing on the upper manual anyway. If you are triggering chords at the low end of the 76, you simply have to bring your LH straight up and there the pitch strips are...

Not in my case...the lower manual would be 61 keys as well...works for the B-3 and any other organs I've played, so I wouldn't want 76 keys.

It's another reason why I like 61 keys on a single manual instrument...having 76 means the bender/wheels are further away from where I am chording, and putting the wheels/bender on the panel, above the keys, isn't any better, and generally awkward to use.

It's my personal preference, something different may work better for you.

Ian

Come to think of it, 49 keys on upper, and 61 (splittable) on lower manual would be even better, since, as you say, "Most of the time, solo sounds, you'll be playing on the upper manual anyway."

The instrument could then be made even more compact and lighter in weight, and infinitely more gig-able.

Something similar to the D-Deck Electone.


It also has presets between the keyboards that Diki mentioned.


Ian




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-04-2010).]

Oh look the Yamaha has the shiny buttons.

Ian i am getting tired of your Yamaha opinions... You clearly have a Yamaha agenda and therefor your opinions have no value at all..

Next to that, this instrument (Virgin 1) is clearly build for homeplayers and then comming with arguments to make it more suited for travel and gigs sounds like you really don't understand anything about these types of organs. Why would anyone want to take a huge organ on a gig?

Don't blame me for taking this personal but you are trying to change every topic intoo a praise the Yamaha lord topic and thats realy starting to get on my... you know.

My 30 year old Solina organ had those buttons too.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 10-04-2010).]

Diki is right the instrument needs more width. I would add the wheels next to the upper manuall (and i would even add a pitch shifter and a ribon controller next to the lower manual.

But then this would require a total redesign of the lionstracs frontplate and i highly doubt tastenpoint is up to that, so he should just wayt for the new 88 key upcomming lionstracs that has a wide enough frontplate

It also needs more height. I would put the lionstracs controll surface with the screen almost straight up, this allows for a better view and easier access. And who cares about weight and volume after all its a home organ and you can also make this design look awesome.

NExt to that i would add 8 knobs to the right of the drawbars, but then thats just personal and i really doubt if many organplayers would use such a feauture.

Thanks Jim.

After reading your recent, and not so recent, posts it is quite clear that your agenda is to continually try to kick Yamaha in the butt.

Well, that can only mean one thing...they are in front.

Every knock is a boost.

You sure get upset easily...if you were playing a Yamaha, you'd only feel peace and contentment...like me.

Instead, you are just another unhappy critic.


Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-05-2010).]

Well son, all I can tell you is that if you don't like my opinion, that's your problem, not mine.

Your posts remind me of a baker who makes a wonderful chocolate cake, and then covers it with dog poo icing.

Carry on,

Ian

First You call me Jim, and now i have become your son... Since you are my father, That makes you over 70 years old and having Alzheimer... surely you don't want that...

So please don't make up names for me.

Just stick to the facts... and my only fact is that i do not care for your opinion since it is clearly tainted.

End of discussion......

Back on topic..

Do you think that the wooden chasis, the bench and the pedals combined with drawbars, speakers and amplification are worth the extra 10k this instrument costs over the Groove ?

That's cool...and my facts are:

1.If you don't care for my opinion, that's your problem not mine.

2. Your opinions are clearly tainted as well...all icing (see above) and practically no cake.

End of discussion.

Ian

Not bad ....going south early today eh?......;eek:

Yes Donny, some people just have no couth.

Ian

My Ol Thomas Palace III had those buttons as did my 1987 Yamaha HS8-T (and almost all high end instruments).
Yes..they are important.

They are a simple thing to have on there...wander why they were omitted?

PS..Ian I wish you had the pull to get me a used Stagea for $10,000.:-)

Lee S.

I wish I did too Lee...I know you're anxious to get one.

If I hear of anything, I'll let you know...that's all I can do.

The Stagea is a fine instrument...I had an HS-8 and an HX-1...both had those convenient presets between the manuals.

Ian

Thing is, Ian, if you are content with two 61's, you STILL are basically ruling out playing full piano parts on it. Just exactly WHERE are you going to stick that 88 wood piano of yours to be able to use with this behemoth? Left side or right side? Because you sure as sh*t can't place on top or underneath...

Imagine the layout of the Stagea, but with the width of this thing. This thing is designed for KEYBOARD players, not just organ players (or it WOULD have the tried and tested 61 bottom manual), and as such, it needs to cover all the bases.

I guess I am starting to wonder if you simply don't LIKE playing full piano keyboard parts, because, with your preferences, you HAVE to cart two keyboards around to achieve it. Me, I prefer having the option without lugging an 88 around. Remember, I am not a pianist... I am a KEYBOARD PLAYER. So I am capable of getting a lifelike piano performance out of a 76 plastic keyboard. Is it as good as a wood 88? No... Is it as bad as a plastic 61? HELL NO...!

For a MODERN 'organist' that has moved beyond the limitations of old school organs, I would have thought the 76/61 layout would be just about perfect. Think beyond the arranger, and your world opens out drastically...

I think in many ways you have to look at it as an overall package, what it has to offer, and not just how much more you get over a standard Groove keyboard.

As an organ and with the features it has, how does the competition compare on all fronts including price. Does the competition even compare at all since this is a true open keyboard ?

Personally, I think when you look at Organs and the functions this Virgin 1 has, well it's by far a better investment in every way and it's also far more future proof than any other Organ.

Regards
James

Well, that's your preference, Diki...not mine.

It doesn't make it any more right than my preferences...just different.

I hate playing solo piano on 76 wimpy keys...88 weighted is a must; I'm probably more of a traditional player than you.

I don't mind taking a lightweight piano with me on the few gigs I need it...the P-85 is perfect, and I'm basically a very lazy guy, so it can't be that much of an issue now, can it?

You don't own a car, so transport is far more critical for you.

Ian

Later thoughts...I'd be easier to convince if the lower manual had 76 weighted keys, but, unfortunately, it would also make the instrument much heavier.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-05-2010).]

I've sent out some feelers to my Yamaha buddies in Canada and USA...I'll be in touch if I get anything worth passing on.

Ian

You have to, at some point, admit you are in the minority, Ian. I know it's YOUR preference, but it is definitely a minority viewpoint. Or there wouldn't be ANY 76's, whether arranger or WS.

It seems that many, many players are perfectly fine with playing piano parts on a plastic 76. And, given that they also like to play organ parts on the same keyboard, wouldn't choose a 76 fully weighted wood even if one were offered. Once you decide to use ONE keyboard, and decide you want it to be able to do EVERYTHING, a plastic 76 is almost your ONLY choice.

But if you are willing to be unable to do certain things at all (let alone badly! ), a 61 is the perfect choice, or maybe a wood 88. But the moment you decide to play outside the tiny arranger 'box', having more keys is a necessity, not a burden.

For YOU, it works great. But for everyone that has ever bought a Yamaha 76, let alone another brand, your decision is NOT the right one. Take your argument to a WS forum, and see how logical they think it is...

Minority or not, my preferences are just that...my preferences.

In regards to what I use gigging, or at home, I only have to please me.

That's why I don't bother criticizing your choice...it would be just as much a waste of time.

Ian

Give us a break, Ian... that's all you DO criticize!

I don't use a Yamaha, I don't stick to lightweight 61's, I don't primarily play in arranger mode. And apparently, it bugs the hell out of you. I don't worship Yamaha, I can find fault with my OWN arranger as much as I can with everything else...

I am the 'Anti-you'!

ROTFLMAO

sorry Bachus, that just stitched me up!!!

All good m8

Dennis

No I don't. I'm not interested in what you play, other than it seems to work for you.

As I said, I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to playing piano, and it's much the same way with how I use arrangers.

You'll hear little criticism about Yamaha (and other) arrangers from me....my only criticism of your precious G-70 is it's portliness, and that really has nothing to do with it's arranger features, which are fine.

It appears that I'm far more capable of living with what we so generously get on today's arrangers than you (again, I'm the traditionalist)...it certainly goes a long way in giving me far more playing enjoyment. You are constantly bitching, and wanting more, while I'm usually praising and enjoying the arranger as it is today.

How you use an arranger is really of no concern to me (never has been...honestly!) although it seems more of a concern to you, hence all your explanations and excuses.

Have a nice day,

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-06-2010).]

This entire diatribe only makes any sense whatsoever if you ignore EVERYBODY that plays a 76 arranger Ian...

"It appears that I'm far more capable of living with what we so generously get on today's arrangers than you (again, I'm the traditionalist)...it certainly goes a long way in giving me far more playing enjoyment." is a slap in the face for everybody that plays ANY 76 here (including DGX and NP-80v users), and simply shows your arrogance towards anyone that dares to step outside your self-imposed box.

I am BY NO MEANS alone in my preferences, no matter how much you want to ignore the rest of the world.

You are in a minority according to Yamaha's surveys.

As I said before; you can always buy elsewhere if you need a 76 note TOTL arranger...of course, you already have one that seems to be doing the job quite nicely, so why all the fuss?

Certainly you're not attempting to be the crusader for those few in need of a 76'er....very noble of you, but, as you say, they've probably already moved on.

Problem solved.

Ian

Ian,
Thanks for checking...I bet anyone having the Stagea is keeping it.
Also, I;m wandering if Yamaha will have a newer Stagea sometime as I see the current one is 1994?

I'm looking into the arranger on top..MIDI controller on bottem again and add the 20 pedal unit...so Maybe I have moved on?

I could even build a cabinet for it...my neibor is a cabinet maker by trade.

Lee S.

I'll keep looking, Lee...you never know what may turn up.

There are some really cool double manual setups on YPKO...

An old Electone, or even a Hammond (not a B-3!) cabinet would make a great start...I'm sure there are older Electones that can be bought on the cheap.

I think your idea of using two manuals, one an arranger, is probably the best, considering style availability and such.

Ian

Ian,
I'll do some resarch on YPKO and see what I can learn.
Thank,
Lee S.

Yamaha only survey 61 players... QED.

Yamaha have NEVER polled me. And probably 99% of the 76 players here. You can 'prove' anything by only polling those who are going to give you the answer you want. I can 'prove' you are an idiot, should I decide to ONLY ask people I know think that of you...

Doesn't make it true, does it?

Probably because you aren't using, or have not used, any of their arranger products.

In case you've forgotten, I have passed on your suggestion for a 76'er to Yamaha many times.

I've also mentioned the chord sequencer.

Diki, if I had a lot of influence with the company, I'd have them make a 76 note Tyros or PSR just for you....and it would have a chord sequencer as well.

But, the company obviously feels that a 76 note MOTL or TOTL arranger is not worth making...or, they would have made one by now.

This same topic was discussed at length on SZ after the respective launches of Tyros, Tyros2, and Tyros3...you are aware that Yamaha reps read this forum; you know at least two.

So, there's really not much else that can be done, other than forward information (including the poll taken here some time ago), and wait for the results.

So far, the answer for a 76'er has been "No".

All we can do is wait to see if the next generation S-series, or the next Tyros has what you want.

If we go by previous instances, it doesn't appear too promising, but, who knows, maybe they will make a 76.

Ian

I appreciate the forwarding of my wishes. You MIGHT acknowledge, though, that I am by NO MEANS the sole person here requesting these. I hate to be singled out for what appears to be a quite common request

Likewise the drum sound (fixable with a TVN for the Tyros) and the VH, etc., etc..

Exactly... as long as they continue to poll their existing customers, they are going to think that they have the complete picture. I mean, imagine that they ONLY polled those of us that use 76-ers... You might have a hard time finding a 61 to use! Mind you, if that ever became the case, I would not be 'excusing' Yamaha the omission quite as fervently as you have!

The only factual data they are going to find is if they poll ALL arranger users. Of COURSE, they are going to find 61 users the vast majority. But they would CERTAINLY find a larger percentage of 76 users than they currently do. Perhaps it would be enough to make them change their minds, perhaps not. But the size (or lack thereof) of the segment hasn't so far stopped anyone that DOES make 76's from continuing to make them, and none of these companies are run as charities!

And, once again, their polling data hasn't made them stop production on their existing 76-ers. Seems like at least SOME Yamaha polling data seems to favor making them..!

Basically, I believe the truth of the matter is, should Yamaha ever make a 76 PSR, it would kill their DGX division FLAT. And they don't want to do that, no matter how much the customer would profit. They are making a fortune from these underpowered, under-featured boondoggles...

I can't see them change what is obviously working very well for them.

Can you?

Ian