After hearing the 50 demos of the T4....
how do you think they compare to your Audya 76/61 in sounds, styles, features so far?... this is really both ends of the spectrum but in a very Good way fro arranger Kb players.... I hope to hear some interesting debates?...

Well for starters I'm not an Audya owner, but I own a ketron. I heard all 50 demos and its a nice board, great sounds but I would get very bored with it just like the other yamaha I owned. The right hand sounds are great but the styles are still to cd like, not like the live band sound that the ketrons have. I'm sure anything that is on the T4 could have might as well been on the T3, so why spend $3500-$4000 all over again. Yamaha makes great boards but not for me and the style of music I play. There great for american ballads, club/dance etc. but Latin is a no-go. I hope their latin section is better, but knowing them they just re-packaged it again.

Well I'll pass on this one, good luck to those who buy one.

What ketron unit are your playing...?
I also wished there were more demos of the Latin styles among the 50 shown?...
it seemed so overpowered by styles with vocal chorus, scat, doo bee doos, etc, etc, ...maybe Yamaha should buy out Ketron and incorporated the best of both..

Ok

Honestly It has great RH sounds
But that's it
Something about the overall sound that turns me off
It lacks the punch
It lacks that in your face sound
It lacks that live band , real band sound
It sounds too fake. Sounds like a grand orchestra Like a 20 piece band.
Come on. Who are you trying to kid?
Ye great skat voices. And strings.
But I need some good Usable styles.
This T4 sounds Like a CD
Sounds thin
It's hard to explain
But play an Audya and you'll know what I'm talking about
Play an Audya and you'll get that
Damn this is one great drummer bass and guitar player
Play the yamaha. And you'll say wow
T
I sound like a wanna be 40 piece orchestrA

Something about the audya that's sounds REAL
Play it and you'll know what I'm talking about ...

I pretty much agree with your observation...and explaining it to folks that love the Yamaha sound is impossible...but most other folks know exactly what you mean..

Ok guys,who care in your audience if you play with live drumer or gutarist?Simple answer is :nobady.
Ketron live sound is just for your feeling and that is right.Nobady complain about Ketron or Yamaha sound but Ketron users complain about haw that Audya behawe and works.
Yamaha haw no problems with OS and customer suport and that is the point!That is more like live drumer...who nobady hear!
And one more thing:what the hell you are listening on yours Radio stations eweryday?I thing,you listening CDs again and again....

[This message has been edited by Dusan (edited 09-18-2010).]

That's what pretty much what I was trying to say. Not every style has to sound like a 20 piece orchestra. What I like so much about a ketron a lot of there styles mimic what a 4-5 piece band would sound like not carnegie hall. I think a t4 for right hand sounds and Audya for styles and you have one hell of a combination. But te T4 alone does not cut it. I would have sold it in a short time to replace it with a Ketron.

So LIVE band sound allegedly..vs..
CD Quality orchestra Sound......but the bottom line no matter how you twist it
IT'S STILL AN ARRANGER KB ...both sound great....both enthrall an audience.....both make people buy them, & enjoy playing them so in essence there is NO Right or Wrong answer .....only separate opinions that will NEVER change!.......then to throw a wrench into the fray you have the Roland G70 affectionatos who love a 10 year old unit that in their eyes blows both out of the water?....weird eh?.....what does it all mean?.....nobody will ever know.....
at lest the TYROS has 61 keys.. For the "everyday" gigging musician Yamaha wins hands down all around.

This song says it all....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoUSrtw6gJs&feature=related



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-18-2010).]

I like the T4 and who knows, I might buy one. But it ain't no Audya. As I listened to the T4 demo's, I thought, geez those drums sound terrible, WHY can't they make them more real? And the Audya's bass lines are just incredibly real. For gigging, Audya wins.

Then again, I have not played a T4. Which matters.

I Like It! I've listened to several of the demo's/styles.

I love my Audya, but what I've heard so far I have to give Yamaha credit.

Here comes another great arranger!

Jim

You can't really compare them unless you have played both for a fair amount of time.
I love the Audya. I haven't even listened to most of the T4 demos, because the only way I would want to buy one would be after I tried it in person. What little I've heard seems to be a little better than previous incarnations.
I fear Yamaha has not yet improved the drums enough. I could be wrong. They SAY they have improved the vocal harmonizer but I haven't heard it, much less tried it. To make a comparison between a board with which I've spent hundreds of hours and one I've only heard on a few demos and that is not even available yet would be fruitless and unfair to both.
Bear in mind that I want to sound like a live small combo, not a full-fledged music production, at least most of the time.
I have found my Audya to be almost flawless and the Operating System to be easy to use and more logical than the Yamaha. Maybe not as logical as Roland, but close. And it is miles ahead of Roland as far as PC connectivity and outboard storage.
The one thing I would welcome most would be the OTS system of either Roland or Yamaha, with all the great lead sound presets they come up with.
DonM

Don can you elaborate more on the PC connection and the OTS structure? athese are definitly things perspective buyers want to hear about including myself.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-18-2010).]

Sorry, but regardless of sound,it doesn't have 76 keys. I want a keyboard that I can play as a piano & do all the arranger stuff too. Yamaha drums are not as live as Audya.
I read a comment that said " nobody can hear the difference" and that simply is not true.

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 09-18-2010).]

Well you just plug in the USB cable and the PC sees it as a drive. Also you can play files directly from one or more of the thumb drives without loading to HD. As you know with the Roland you had to put everything in a special folder without option to use subfolders. The new Ketron system is very similar to the later Yamahas in this regard.
As to OTS, as used by Yamaha and Roland, Ketron has none preset from the factory. It does have numerous Programs for each voice bank and you can build your own or use a voice list in which you can store sounds or programs. It also has a second Registration system (Block as opposed to Single) which allows instant access to most anything you want to put there, on one page.
I much prefer the directory system on Audya.
Too many banks and layers on Yamaha, at least for the way I use it, which is of course what matters to me.
You can't compare the new OS on Audya to any of the older Ketron systems. It is a totally new approach. The Midjay came closest to it.
DonM

This is starting to sound like a broken record but here you go, same old crappy drums from what I heard on the demos. Sorry I don't own an Audya but I still have my sd-1.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 09-18-2010).]

I have to agree, I would take Ketron X1 over a T4 anyday just because of the styles. The right hand voices on the Yamaha are probably some of the best out there but the styles just don't cut it. It's too bad, I owned a T2 and s900, which I sold just to go back to a Ketron SD5 just because of the styles.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 09-18-2010).]

Donny, you are rushing too much again....the Best keyboard (G70) is only 5 years old..

If Yamaha allowed the Tyros to be updated from the start..maybe we would be talking about an 8 year old keyboard...with the same features as the Tyros4....Other manufacturers have it right...

My 2 cents:

1- I don't think that T4 (T3-T2) styles are bad; to the contrary I think that they are the best. The issue with Yamaha styles are no the styles by themselves; If you put the drums of the Audya on those they will be even better.
I think that the Audya styles need more orchestral sounds. Some times they are drums/bass dominated.

2- I found the Audya easier to use than the T4.

3- For giging, no question that the Audya is more adequate because the Audio Drums. They produce a more lively play.

4- For home use and for musicians over 50, no question that the T4 is a bigger atraction. For that reason it dominated that segment of the market. Older audience are usually more sensitive to "loud" music. Add to that OS stability and customer support.

5- Right hand sounds (SA sounds) on the T4 are excellent, better that the ones that we found in the Audya.

6- A big advantage of the T4 is big amount of styles available (factory and 3rd parties). There are a lot more after market tools available for the T4 that for any other arranger, to create styles.

7- If I will purchase a Yamaha keyboard, it will be the PSR-S910 and no the T4. More value for the money and almost same features.

That's bull poo Fran...the G-70 is just the best keyboard for YOU, and maybe two or three others here on SZ.

It ain't the best keyboard for me, Donny, Steve, Genny (the little sweetie) and quite a few more.

The BEST keyboard is the one that meets the needs of the player, and in my case, right now, it is the PSR-S910, which is not even a TOTL arranger, but for MY purposes, absolutely blows away a portly, old and fewer featured G-70.

If the G-70 was the best at everything, we'd all have one...but it ain't.

Neither is Tyros (in all it's iterations), or the PSR, or any of the Korgs, or the Audya.

It's been said here many times, "There is no best, or perfect arranger"....but there can be an arranger that is best at meeting a player's needs"

If the G-70 meets your needs so well, why are you always buying something you can take to certain gigs instead of it?

It meets Diki's needs so well, he bought two of them...much like Gary D with his two PSR-3000...I'm surprised, since you gig so often, you don't have two G-70's, because eventually you're not going to be able to get parts, and you will need to cannibalize one them to keep the other running...and I'm sure, since it is the best for your needs, you probably will want to use it as long as possible.

The G-70 is the best in your eyes...but, be realistic, and consider the many other "bests" out there before you make such blanket statements.

Ian

And, if those that like the T4 weren't so vocal about IT being the 'best' arranger out there, responses like Fran's would be rarer.

This forum is ALL about 'push and shove', as, to be honest, ANY forum is likely to be when it is about hardware, rather than music (and even on forums about that, there is a certain amount of contrary 'opinion' ).

But you can't be selective in your criticism of the use of the word 'best', Ian. Start contradicting Yamaha fans (or at least pointing out THEIR error in using the word 'best') before you start contradicting others, Ian, otherwise it simply becomes just one MORE example of fanboy behavior.

Me, I think they ALL suck! The day I hear an arranger that actually sounds like (and behaves like) REAL musicians will be the first! I am an equal opportunity critic

Poor Diki...playing an arranger that SUCKS must be tough.

Fran probably doesn't agree with your opinion of the G-70...he doesn't think it sucks...he thinks it's "the best."

I love my PSR-S910, and no doubt I will feel the same way about the Tyros4 if I get it.

Arrangers aren't perfect, but they have come a long way since the early days when having eight or sixteen styles and ten or twelve sounds was thought to be pretty advanced.

Nowadays, an arranger is one of the handiest and most innovative musical tools/instruments being made, in my opinion.

Ian

The T4 market and the Audya are two completely different markets.

The T4 are for those home players who just want something that they can focus on the old days and sound like a recording of a song they use to hear on the radio.
Their playing is of little concern to them. They are more concerned with the content of the keyboard and what the keyboard can do for them Out of the box.
That is why the T4 sounds the way it does.
The T4 having a CD sound is not bad and it sounds good to the market it is for.

Now the Audya is for a different market. The Audya is for the player who wants to go on stage and sound like a band. That is why on the style parts for Audya, it is not too busy. The player is trying to impress upon the listener that it is me alone as a keyboard player and I can sound as good as a regular 4/5 member band.
That is why bass and drums are so important to Audya users.
The Audya gives the keyboard player more room to show his skill as a keyboard player and not his skill as a Karaoke DJ.

and, I have to agree with Diki when he says that all arrangers suck.
But I think they all suck OOTB. However, the beauty of an arranger is that it has the tools for the user to make it not suck and for the user to sound good.
The strength of an arranger is the features and what you can do for it not what it can do for you.
Style creation and style modification are the real treasures of the arranger.
The ability to create a style or modify a style to your playing style is what makes or breaks an arranger player.
If you have a really good sounding style with great playing in the style, and you are a low to medium player, the outcome is most likely going to be bad. Likewise, if you are a really good player and the style is not as good as you or just does not have your style, then you will get a bad overall performance.
It is only when you either create your own style of modify a factory style can you make the arranger shine.
I almost never use a factory style. I either create my own style or modify and existing style. And, that is why I could use the Motif XS as an arranger.
JMO



------------------
I have shortened my ID to TTG

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-18-2010).]

Excellent post, Genny, you make some great points.

I never use the factory styles for my own music...I always edit styles in order to put my own stamp on my tunes.

I only use factory styles for my demos, but I show clients how to edit/assemble their own styles at my clinics.

Ian

Finally someone makes sense

I am not a product loyal type person and so if a keyboard has the goods then it would be a worthy contender, but I must say that out of the 50 demo's not a single one did anything for me. In fact if the other styles are anything like these fifty I don't see how anyone could get anything out of this board. If you like oohs and aah's I guess you could like it. From what I heard I would prefer my old psr-9000 to the tyros 4. The Tyros is not in the same league with Audya. Don't get me wrong, it's right hand sounds are darn good but the style demos to me just plain stink IMO of course. I had a Tyros and it just seems like Yamaha is missing the boat of what a one man band is all about. A band is basically, Guitar, Bass, Drums and Piano or organ , your basic rythm section. Sitting behind a tyros the audiance would think you are sitting there playing CD's. Not meant to offend but that board needs to go back to the drawing board.

When I say that arrangers suck, and don't come close to a real band, I am afraid I am referring to thei PLAYING, not the styles they play, or even their sounds, to a large degree.

Completely idiomatic playing on even a pretty naff sound still sounds great, and can fool many people. But an amazing sound, played by a robot, still sounds horrible, IMO. And arrangers still have a VERY long way to go before they play voicings, and, more especially, the changes BETWEEN voicings anything NEAR what real players do.

It drives me crazy to listen to ANY of them, good, bad and ugly, when they start block voicing chord changes, jumping lines around, and completely ignoring voice leading. Then the same six or fewer fills trying to make sixteen possible transitions (only three in Korg's case, often just TWO )...

It's not about whether the style is programmed well in the first place... The best of them still have a complete inability to join together chords and musical passages the way that real players do, most of them sound IDENTICAL whether you are playing your RH hard or soft (or only make the barest change of volume or velocity).

But, rather than talk about things like this, we disappear up our own backsides arguing SOUND, while the manufacturers ignore some pretty obvious things they could do to make these MUSICAL things happen.

Me, I'd rather have sixteen fills per style (what you need for every possible Var to Var combination) than any NUMBER of SA sounds. I'd rather have a style engine that could have a bassline play in root, but look at the chord inversion you are actually PLAYING to guide its' decisions about what inversion to play SOME of the arranger Parts in than any number of mp3 playback features, or karaoke center cancel audio bullsh*t...

I'd rather see a half dozen REALLY detailed drumkits, with a dozen or more velocity cross-switches than thirty drum kits with virtually NO vel X-switches. I'd like to see drum sections that got more or less complex with the 'inside' stuff depending on how fast YOU are playing. I'd like to see simple, easy to use controls for easily dropping a full arrangement down to just bass and drums, then small combo, then full ensemble...

And you know what? SOME of these features USED to be on some older arrangers. But they got dropped, because so much emphasis is placed on features for the One Finger crowd and karaoke wannabes, stuff that is subtle, that only a discerning ear can hear gets lost in the noise...

It's sad. The arranger has a LOT more potential than is currently being shown. But few of us seem to be even SLIGHTLY interested in making it more realistic by behavioral OS improvements, preferring realistic SOUNDS being played unrealistically.

I'm looking forward to your return from that disappearing act...well, not quite, considering where you chose to disappear.

Still, that's quite a trick.

Buy something with SA/SA2 voices, and it will really help with your instrument emulation...of course, you're never going to entirely fool someone who plays that particular instrument, but with a disappearing act like you've got going, instrument emulation wouldn't be nearly as spectacular.

Remember to remove your hat.

Ian

You got anything USEFUL to say, or is it going to be jibe, jab and dig from now on, Ian..? Give it a rest, son...

Think of it this way.... The guitar SOUNDS in most arrangers weren't that bad, but the PLAYING of those sounds (in the style) sucked, until we started to get proper Guitar Modes on Korg's, better guitar NTT's on Yamaha's, Mega Voices with fancy programming in them, and stuff like that. Realism didn't come from the SOUND, but from clever programming to make how they were PLAYED more like a real guitarist.

I believe that there are many other areas in an arranger's OS that could benefit from the same emphasis on correct PLAYING as opposed to just good sounds. SA voices in styles is a perfect example. Even Yamaha see the point of this (as opposed to you, Ian!) and recognize that realism comes from how a voice is PLAYED, rather than just its' sound alone.

When a large part of what the audience hears is the accompaniment, and we just play lead sounds with the one hand while the left is merely inputting chord information, then how those arranger Parts PLAY their parts is pretty critical, IMO. Current arrangers, even the best of them, IMO, have a LONG way to go before they can hold a candle to a good band...

Just spend more time practicing with your arranger Diki, and you'll get a better grip on emulating sounds...and SA/SA2 would really benefit your attempts, but, unfortunately, Roland doesn't offer anything like it...too bad.

DJ's don't sound like a "live band" either, but they've been steadily carving out a market for themselves quite nicely.

You blow hot and cold with your opinions on arrangers...one day they are the greatest thing, the next, "they all SUCK".

Make up your mind.

Ian

They are the greatest thing that sucks...

(well, OK, the SECOND greatest thing! )

Sorta like being the healthiest person in intensive care...

I can't argue with the second half of your post...

So anyword on what Yamaha actually did to upgrade the Tyros 4 VH2 vocalizer....
is it a secret?