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#292648 - 09/10/10 10:24 AM Whats up with ROLAND?
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Roland has dicontinued their top model Arrangers some time ago...

Roland allready has dicontinued their topline solosynth the V-synth GT 2.0 in europe and probably soon will in the US. Without having a real replacement for it.

Their Fantom G line hasn't seen an update in a long time and after 3 years there hasn't been a single ARX expansion board released. Seems they have given up on this series to and are only selling them as long as they are in stock.

Roland is only building cheeper units like affordable Juno's and GW arrangers...

Seems Roland will be the next Casio of the hardware keyboard market.
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#292649 - 09/10/10 12:22 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
In these dire economic times, it only makes sense to pull back to just the low end of the market, IMO.

Maybe when we see a REAL recovery (you know, one that affects WORKING people as well as retirees!), it's likely we'll see a spike in TOTL innovation and production, but the high end is pretty much a gamble for any company right now. Some already HAVE robust enough low end sales (in particular, Yamaha) to support what must be a less profitable high end division for at least a while, but Roland have wisely (at least, it SEEMS wise!) decided to have a real go at the BOTL market, and if they can come out with some really competitive products, maybe we'll see a re-emergence in the TOTL.

In the meantime, FantomG is still selling pretty well, is being updated nicely, and is still the go to tool for the hiphop and dance and trance crowd when they aren't using VSTi's. But that's the big dog in the room.... At home and in the studio, at least, more and more work is being done on computers, and a much stronger division is appearing between what recordists want, and what live players want. At the WS end of things, Yamaha's MoXS/F is ruling the roost, but on most stages, you'll see Roland's stage piano line as quite prominent if that is being used.

Don't write Roland completely off so soon...
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#292650 - 09/10/10 12:39 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
In these dire economic times, it only makes sense to pull back to just the low end of the market, IMO.



I hope you're right Diki.

Yamaha Tyros2/3 have sold exceptionally well here in my area, as well as across Canada.

Of course, we heavily promote the high end (and midrange) as these flagships also help to sell the lower end arrangers.

The convertible, or sports-model, in the showroom draws in the crowd, but they wind up with a sedan...however, convertibles (and sports-models) are still sold in enough quantities to warrant building them, and the profit margin pays for research and development, as well as promotion.

Roland arrangers were promoted pitifully here in Eastern Canada, and only two were sold that I know of...a G-70 and an E-60, the latter of the two winding up back in the store where it still sits.

Tyros and mid-range PSR are primarily sold to home users, usually advanced players, and most of them between 45 and 70 years of age.

So, it appears, that if interest remains relatively constant, there's at least another 10-20 years available for home arrangers.

I'm sure the product will gradually adapt, as it already has very well, these past few decades...at that point, the younger buyers will buy the next generation arrangers; instruments that will still be based on what we have now, but with considerably more features in keeping with those present times.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292651 - 09/10/10 02:32 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Is there a sale on Crystal Balls again?


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#292652 - 09/10/10 03:10 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Is there a sale on Crystal Balls again?



What size balls would you like, Sir?
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292653 - 09/10/10 05:35 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Roland is probably realizing that making long lasting products that persons could like for years is not the way to go.
They are seeing the light and probably taking a page out of Yamaha’s book and they are starting to create products that are lacking so that they can make a new product that addressed issues and lacking features in the previous product. Just like what Yamaha is doing with the Motif XS and XF and what they have been doing with the Tyros and PSR lines.
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#292654 - 09/10/10 08:09 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Roland is probably realizing that making long lasting products that persons could like for years is not the way to go.
They are seeing the light and probably taking a page out of Yamaha’s book and they are starting to create products that are lacking so that they can make a new product that addressed issues and lacking features in the previous product.


What is lacking is your understanding of the arranger market.

Roland didn't sell well because of poor marketing, terrible promotion, and incorrect product placement...not because they make poor instruments, which they do not. Their arrangers are (or were) very competitive.

There are many Yamaha arranger players still using PSR-9000/8000/3000/2000/740 that are quite happy with their instrument and it's sound and reliability.

If you want to take a cheap shot at Yamaha, Genny, you better try harder than that...your point has no basis whatsoever.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292655 - 09/10/10 09:19 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
What is lacking is your understanding of the arranger market.

Roland didn't sell well because of poor marketing, terrible promotion, and incorrect product placement...not because they make poor instruments, which they do not. Their arrangers are (or were) very competitive.

There are many Yamaha arranger players still using PSR-9000/8000/3000/2000/740 that are quite happy with their instrument and it's sound and reliability.

If you want to take a cheap shot at Yamaha, Genny, you better try harder than that...your point has no basis whatsoever.

Ian



If you are going to comment on my point, please understand it first and don’t misquote me.
I never said Roland made poor arrangers. In fact I said the opposite. “Roland is probably realizing that making long lasting products that persons could like for years is not the way to go”.

Yes there may be a few Yamaha players that still use PSR 9000 and other older ones but Yamaha still felt the need to continue with incremental upgrades to arrangers despite that fact. So it is not a significant number of persons that have those older arrangers.

No one is taking a cheap shot at Yamaha, you an I both know Yamaha’s business practices. It may be hard to swallow but it is the way they are able to stay in business. Other keyboard manufacturers had better start to follow if they want to do well.

The days of giving free OS upgrades need to be over. The need to creat a new product with those minor changes so that they could keep people buying and so that they could keep their name in the news as producing new products.
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#292656 - 09/10/10 09:41 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
“Roland is probably realizing that making long lasting products that persons could like for years is not the way to go. They are seeing the light and probably taking a page out of Yamaha’s book and they are starting to create products that are lacking so that they can make a new product that addressed issues and lacking features in the previous product."




The only page of "Yamaha's book" that Roland should have been reading, is the one regarding proper promotions, better product placement, and improved marketing research and strategy.

If Yamaha's earlier products were so lacking in features, then why are so many people still happily using them?

Whether you like their tactics or not, there's no denying their success, both in the past, and now, in the present.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292657 - 09/10/10 10:13 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
If there were no lacking features in the PSR 9000 then there should never have been a T1, T2, T3, and T4.

Yamaha thinks different from you in that they do not think a lot of persons are using their older arranger. If they did they would not be making so many new arrangers.


Look Ian you may not agree with Yamaha’s way of business but that is what has been working for them and other manufacturers should follow if they want to stay in the TOTL arranger business.
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#292658 - 09/11/10 01:15 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
If there were no lacking features in the PSR 9000 then there should never have been a T1, T2, T3, and T4.

Yamaha thinks different from you in that they do not think a lot of persons are using their older arranger. If they did they would not be making so many new arrangers.


Look Ian you may not agree with Yamaha’s way of business but that is what has been working for them and other manufacturers should follow if they want to stay in the TOTL arranger business.


Companies must sell new arrangers to stay in business... n'est-ce-pas? Simple basic marketing, wouldn't you agree?

Look Genny, you may not agree, or even understand Yamaha's way of doing business, but if you did, you'd see that it was more like new features were developed rather than there were features that were lacking, else-wise the present owners of 9000/8000/3000 etc, wouldn't still be content with their instruments.

I know it's difficult for you to grasp this simple concept, but please try reading it slowly and carefully, and it will soon become clear to you....go back to your little Genesys arranger and keep those tiny fingers busy and away from your computer keypad until it does.

Have a nice day,

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292659 - 09/11/10 01:39 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
DannyUK Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 1130
Didn't Technics make incremental upgrades to their TOTL range but still went broke?

My own interpretation of why Yamaha make so many models is so that they can attract the customers who don't already have a Yamaha or maybe those who used to own one of their models a while ago (like I did in the past as my last Yammy was a PSR8000 before I got the T3). I don't think Yamaha are specifically aiming their ranges always at owners who already have the latest model, eg, I wouldn't be surprised if many T3 owners don't upgrade this time around but probably attract T1 owners or earlier to take the plunge as well as people who have been attacted by Yamaha but own something else.

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#292660 - 09/11/10 04:27 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Technics did not go broke, the accountants decided that the 1% of the Panasonic empire that the Technics keyboards represented, was not worthwhile continuing. (If it had been an individual manufacture, they would probably still be building keyboards today)

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#292661 - 09/11/10 04:45 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Companies must sell new arrangers to stay in business... n'est-ce-pas? Simple basic marketing, wouldn't you agree?

Look Genny, you may not agree, or even understand Yamaha's way of doing business, but if you did, you'd see that it was more like new features were developed rather than there were features that were lacking, else-wise the present owners of 9000/8000/3000 etc, wouldn't still be content with their instruments.

I know it's difficult for you to grasp this simple concept, but please try reading it slowly and carefully, and it will soon become clear to you....go back to your little Genesys arranger and keep those tiny fingers busy and away from your computer keypad until it does.

Have a nice day,

Ian


You can play semantics all you like but facts are facts.

If you believe that adding features that other arrangers have had for years is development by all means keep on believing.
I am sure Santa claws would be very generous to you this Christmas if you continue to be a good boy.

If a T3 was to attract a PSR 8000 user or a none Yamaha user, why was not the T1 able to do it?

Ian it appears business strategies is not your area and it may be difficult (maybe even heart breaking) for you to understand why looking out for the best interest of the customer is not always good for the company. Yamaha’s way of doing business is whats keeping you in business. So just keep on doing your little Yamaha demos and clinics and continue selling Yamaha products.
I will continue playing my Genesys that I am still satisfied with today.
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#292662 - 09/11/10 05:06 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

Ian it appears business strategies is not your area... Yamaha’s way of doing business is whats keeping you in business. So just keep on doing your little Yamaha demos and clinics and continue selling Yamaha products.
I will continue playing my Genesys that I am still satisfied with today.


Thankfully business strategies is not my area of expertise (and certainly not yours), and yes, Yamaha's way of doing business is keeping me working and wealthy beyond my wildest dreams...at the rate I'm getting paid, I should be able to retire when I'm 127.

It's nice to see you are still promoting your little Genesys, the pinnacle of a once proud, but now extinct company whose bones are now bleaching alongside those of Technics.

If you've finished making your dubious points, I'd like to leave this stimulating converstaion where it stands.

Your participation was interesting, to say the least (and believe me, I am)

It's been almost wonderful.

Thank you very, very little.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292663 - 09/11/10 05:37 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Oh Wow!! Ian has resorted to the old class clown technique. When unable to understand something make fun of the situation. This discussion was not about making points.
The topic was whats up with Roland.
We have not seen a TOTL arranger from them in a long time and if they are out of the arranger game, it could be because they were making well made products.
That was their downfall since if you make a product that your customers can keep for 10 years or more, then it makes it very difficult to sell a new product to them.
They should have done like Yamaha and make a product that is good initially, do not give free OS upgrades that drastically changes the product and then make a new hardware product that covers the areas the prier did not.
Now, obviously aggressive marketing and proper product place will play a major part in this equation.


This is not just for Roland but for other TOTL arranger manufacturers as well.
Korg giving a free upgrade when they added DNC and Ketron giving a OS upgrade that radically changed the product may have been good for the customer but bad for the company.
If it were Yamaha, to get similar types of changes in a keyboard, you have to buy a new hardware board. Just look at the T2 to the T3.

The only saving grace for Roland is if they plan to integrate their TOTL arranger and workstation in to one board and still have a division for the low and mid arrangers.


[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-11-2010).]
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#292664 - 09/11/10 05:54 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

The topic was whats up with Roland.
We have not seen a TOTL arranger from them in a long time and if they are out of the arranger game, it could be because they were making well made products.
That was their downfall since if you make a product that your customers can keep for 10 years or more, then it makes it very difficult to sell a new product to them.


I disagree, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yamaha was already making quality products that customers kept for 10 years or more...witness the many owners of 9000/8000/3000/2000...no different than Roland's tactics.

Where they do differ is that Yamaha also makes new arrangers with incremental upgrades, each arranger very capable of lasting over 10 years in the hands of a happy user, which they are doing as we speak.

Roland is out of the arranger game, not because they produced well made instruments, but these instruments were the victims of poor product placement, poor marketing and dismal promotion.

They also had no low end products to help support the other divisions.

It's not that your opinion is wrong...it's just incomplete.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292665 - 09/11/10 07:02 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Yes we will certainly have to agree to disagree.
I can not argue with inconsistencies.

If you have lots of customers who have the older Yamaha boards, then who are the ones buying the keyboard with incremental upgrades?
Obviously, the number of persons who have older Yamaha arrangers are insignificant to Yamaha because they still find it necessary to make new arrangers.
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#292666 - 09/11/10 08:28 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
I can not argue with inconsistencies.

If you have lots of customers who have the older Yamaha boards, then who are the ones buying the keyboard with incremental upgrades?


Yes, and you are consistently inconsistent, so I can't argue with yours either.

But, I can answer your question, and I can only hope you are open-minded enough to see my point...if not, that's okay, too.

The ones buying the newer Yamaha keyboards are the ones who weren't happy with another manufacturer's product, as well as new clients just getting into arrangers.

Of course, some of the owners of older Yamaha arrangers will eventually upgrade to a new one, sometimes that will depend on how long they've had the instrument, any changes in their needs, and sometimes just for some new sounds and a taste of newer technology...it's the same way for other manufactures as well, including Roland and Korg, the former no longer in the high and mid-range brackets.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292667 - 09/11/10 09:17 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
“Of course, some of the owners of older Yamaha arrangers will eventually upgrade to a new one, sometimes that will depend on how long they've had the instrument, any changes in their needs, and sometimes just for some new sounds and a taste of newer technology...”
Double talk?

Still does not solve the issues of there having to be a T1 T2 T3 T4.

Ian I guess I will have to leave you by your self to talk in circles.
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#292668 - 09/11/10 09:22 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:

Ian I guess I will have to leave you by your self to talk in circles.



Yeah, I guess you will, pal...but the only thing circular is your perception...

Thanks,

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292669 - 09/11/10 09:33 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Yeah, I guess you will, pal...but the only thing circular is your perception...

Thanks,

Ian


Everyone’s perception has to be circular in order to follow your circular reasoning. If we didn't we would not be able to communicate with you.
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#292670 - 09/11/10 09:43 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Everyone’s perception has to be circular in order to follow your circular reasoning. If we didn't we would not be able to communicate with you.


Whatever you say, pal...it's become obvious you really cannot understand the simplest explanations without turning them into something complex that your limited perception can not come to grips with.

Have the last word if you need to...otherwise, please zip it....I've had several private messages from members advising me not to waste my time on you.

I'm going to take their advice.

Thanks for nothing,

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292671 - 09/11/10 10:53 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Actually, it is you who are making something simple very complicated. Where I explained a very simple concept you as usually try to twist the facts and complicate things. But As you like. As you probably are realizing, the more you talk the more you are coming around to understanding Yamaha’s business policy.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-11-2010).]
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#292672 - 09/11/10 12:53 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
What a load of rubbish... almost a whole spat based around something false in the first place..

I have always said I am VERY much the exception when it comes to holding on to keyboards (it ain't just arrangers, folks!), it has NOTHING to do with me being a Roland user. Back when Roland were updating their product line at the same rate everybody else was, there was no overwhelming consensus that their products had a longer shelf life than anything else, and the same kind of people that think now that upgrading to every new model of Yamaha arranger makes sense were upgrading to every new Roland arranger just as much.

Of course, now Roland have left the TOTL and MOTL business completely, no Roland user actually has a choice, so we ALL have to hang on to our G70's and E80's etc.. But, trust me, if Roland WERE bringing out new product, most users of their older arrangers would be updating their gear as fast as any other manufacturers' customers do...

Just not me...

Personally, I am convinced that most of the GAS (gear acquisition syndrome ) going on in arrangers is due to the fatigue factor... When you rely on the arranger to do much of the work, pretty soon you bump up against the fact that it always sounds the same. So you rush out and get ANYTHING new. A few new sounds, a few new styles, you're happy again (for a short while). Then, it's 'rinse and repeat' ad nauseam.

But once you realize that true musical growth really only ever comes from YOU and your PLAYING, the need for something, anything, fresh and new can be satisfied without resorting to buying it...

There is no difference between Roland and Yamaha at all, unless you count that Roland aren't making MOTL and TOTL arrangers AT ALL. But when they WERE, their business model was no different to Yamaha, and their users (on the whole) were also pretty much the same, IMO.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-11-2010).]
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#292673 - 09/11/10 12:58 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Guys ..you are worried about Roland...for nothing..

Roland is an exceptional, solid company..

If you were able to see figures world wide..they are very profitable..yes even compared to Yamaha..and don't be surprised to see Roland's bottom line..stronger than Yamaha...I posted an independent financial bit a few month's ago, that showed exactly that..

Roland has reasons for holding off some production models...I was told this 3 years ago (that it was to be)...

Will there be atop of the line Roland arranger again...you bet your bippy..

If you notice some of the lower priced keyboards from Roland..showing a great media playback, and another with an 8 track recorder....these are the future features I mentioned 3 years ago..(I was told they were in the pipeline)..

BTW: My source is a legitimate "in" person..

Be patient..one of the reasons, production was curtailed..has pretty much been resolved now...(It has to do with facility)..

Roland has been one of the strongest companies in the music business..for a long time..and will remain so...


It sort of reminds me how folks view Casio...you know the company that outsells Yamaha keyboards by a large margin...
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#292674 - 09/11/10 01:23 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
What a load of rubbish... almost a whole spat based around something false in the first place..

]


Hey cutey...I've seen you squabble over less rubbish.

Pull in your little horns before they get caught in something...you're frightening the children, especially Genny.

You said it yourself, Roland had no low end arrangers to support the high and mid if sales (or the economy) fluctuated.

They were caught, like many other companies, without being prepared.

If we are to believe Mr. Fran, and why wouldn't we since he is the Roland guru on SZ (even higher than you, maybe?), then the good ship Roland will nail another TOTL arranger to the mast, and all will be hunky dory.

Let's hope so...what they are producing right now wouldn't be too useful to pro players like you and Fran, unless you're going in the Karaoke business.

I'd love to see another Roland arranger flagship, dripping with new sounds and features, and sporting a lighter chassis and streamlined cabinet...competition is healthy, and all of us benefit, no matter what T-shirt we wear.

Ian

PS...I hope you're gettin' lots of work.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292675 - 09/11/10 01:57 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Fran Carango:
It sort of reminds me how folks view Casio...you know the company that outsells Yamaha keyboards by a large margin...


If they do outsell Yamaha, the more power to them Fran.

Unfortunately, they do not make any arrangers with enough professional features to compete with the high and mid models of Yamaha and Korg, and at one time, Roland.

Their business model is similar to Yamaha's and obviously works alarmingly well, and I'm sure, with their clout, they could easily break into the mid to high end arranger market with ease, and really be competitive.

Again, competition always makes companies sit up and take notice, and we the players/users/consumers always benefit greatly.

Truthfully, I was disappointed that Roland left the market...there's nothing stopping me from buying a Roland if I felt it would benefit my kit...I'm not limited to what brands I buy for personal use...just the brands I demo.

Personally, I'd be surprised if they go back to TOTL arrangers akin to the G-70/G-1000...more than likely, their stage pianos will take on more arranger-like features.

But, if you have an "inside source" that says they'll make one, it must be true. Right?

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292676 - 09/11/10 02:04 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Until Roland bring out some NEW technology in those BOTL arrangers they are making, I don't see the point to a return to the TOTL arena. There isn't really ANYTHING on a Prelude unique in any way, or a GW-8. The sound engine is mature (Sonic Cell, not exactly a barn burning product itself), the overall OS is simply stripped down G70/E60, there's barely one or two new capabilities over even a G1000 (we FINALLY got multiple Drum Parts in a style, whoop-ti-do! ).

But overall, I never got the impression that Roland were even trying that hard. I must confess, being part of the Roland Arranger Division must seem like being relegated to Siberia for any competent keyboard designer...! The Prelude/GW-8 just seems like a recycling job for them. Old arranger technology, cobbled onto a sound chip that never set the world on fire in the first place.

I truly believe that, when all is said and done, the sounds and the styles make any arranger. Everything else is just fluff. And there's just too much that is very raw, unfinished, and unpolished about the Prelude's OOTB sound to attract the majority of the low end market - players that WANT everything pretty much done for them. That's Yamaha's strength, and what helps them overcome their somewhat anemic sound (compared to Roland or Korg or Ketron). It might be anemic, but you don't have to mess with it much to get it to sound polished. You HAVE to work a GW-8 pretty hard before it's ready for prime time.

I get the impression that Roland are WAY under budget when it comes to their sound voicing and style creation teams, these days. Roland styles USED to be the benchmark, but they have stripped that section down to the point where, I sometimes think there are better sound designers and style creators on many amateur forums compared to what Roland hires.

There's altogether too much writing on the wall to make me believe that Roland are doing anything more than coasting on their run at getting BOTL sales to increase. It really IS going to take something quite innovative to kickstart their rise from the ashes, and I haven't seen the slightest evidence of it, yet. Me, I just put this down to corporate inertia, I honestly think that, if there wasn't already an Arranger Division, Roland would never START one now...

Now, don't get me wrong, the GW8 is a pretty good arranger at its' price point. But it's a pretty good arranger for guys like me, more concerned with raw basic SOUND than bells and whistles, and having the skills to re-voice it to sound closer to its' capabilities. But it AIN'T a good arranger for the vast majority of people that buy arrangers at that price...

Thing is, I really don't see anything innovative in the slightest even in Roland's WS Fantom line. Yes, the FantomG is a good combination of features to make trance music, etc., but the raw technology under the hood is all mature. Only the re-voicing capabilities of the Brass ARX board got me even slightly awake, and it's demo's were not all that impressive. The rest of what's good is mostly to do with it being a virtual studio in a box, which AIN'T what most people buy arrangers for!

Until Roland bring out something innovative in the WS line, what on earth makes us think they even HAVE anything innovative to stick in a TOTL arranger..?

Personally, I'd rather see Roland get COMPLETELY out of the arranger market, and concentrate ALL their efforts on new technology for the WS and Stage line of things, than do it as halfheartedly as I see them trying now. Maybe if they DO come out with something that rocks, they can revisit the arranger field and recapture their glory days, but it's kind of sad to see how far they have slid into apathy.
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#292677 - 09/11/10 02:37 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Great post, Diki.

Most of the technology that Yamaha sells in the Tyros line is a few years old as well, but it gets polished, improved, and added to, with each subsequent model.

I think where we'll see more arranger features, is on Roland's stage pianos, although what's on them presently is not really sophisticated. I'm not sure if they can play inversions, for instance.

I'm not sure that Korg is any healthier than Roland, so it may be that they aren't going to replace TOTL arrangers either.

That would be a shame, because then Yamaha would have no reason to strive harder to be competitive...and we Yammie guys will actually lose because of it.

Did you get to play an Audya yet?

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292678 - 09/11/10 08:13 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Ian I see you found a friend to talk in circles with you.


The thing is the longer Roland stays out of the TOTL arranger market, the more difficult it would be for them to get back in and be successful. Especially with Roland’s marketing and product placement.

So are MOTL and TOTL arrangers for professionals or for home players?

OK everyone go back in the circle.
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#292679 - 09/11/10 08:24 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Oh Boy the crystal balls are out again/......why cant everyone just wait and see?

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#292680 - 09/12/10 12:26 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Oh Boy the crystal balls are out again/......why cant everyone just wait and see?


Because its fun....

Any way... So i guess its up to Korg to be innovative... I think they might replace the M3 somewhere next year and maybe also the PA line
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#292681 - 09/12/10 01:20 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5345
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Quote:
Originally posted by to the genesys:
Ian I see you found a friend to talk in circles with you.


The thing is the longer Roland stays out of the TOTL arranger market, the more difficult it would be for them to get back in and be successful. Especially with Roland’s marketing and product placement.

So are MOTL and TOTL arrangers for professionals or for home players?

OK everyone go back in the circle.



All arrangers are designed specifically for the home hobby player, always have been, and probably always will be.

Bill
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English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#292682 - 09/12/10 03:18 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
All arrangers are designed specifically for the home hobby player, always have been, and probably always will be.

Bill


You and I know that. But Ian’s comments on that point are going around in circles.
Ian’s response to Fran talking about Casio.
“Unfortunately, they do not make any arrangers with enough professional features to compete with the high and mid models of Yamaha and Korg, and at one time, Roland”
If arrangers are for home users why would Casio or any other manufacturer make arrangers with professional features?
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#292683 - 09/12/10 05:51 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
All arrangers are designed specifically for the home hobby player, always have been, and probably always will be.

Bill


Well said Bill...a lot of my clients are advanced home players who would appreciate professional grade features.

Quite a few of them also played as pros in bands and orchestras when they were younger, and due to jobs, marriages and kids, had to put playing aside temporarily.

Now, in retirement, they have the money and the time to enjoy an advanced mid or high end arranger keyboard, and some also find the time to go out and perform as a one man band or duo, entering the pro world once again.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#292684 - 09/12/10 07:17 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
to the genesys Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 1155
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Well said Bill...a lot of my clients are advanced home players who would appreciate professional grade features.

Quite a few of them also played as pros in bands and orchestras when they were younger, and due to jobs, marriages and kids, had to put playing aside temporarily.

Now, in retirement, they have the money and the time to enjoy an advanced mid or high end arranger keyboard, and some also find the time to go out and perform as a one man band or duo, entering the pro world once again.

Ian


Round and Round Ian’s contradictions goes. Where he stops no one knows.
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#292685 - 09/12/10 08:47 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Quote:
Originally posted by abacus:
All arrangers are designed specifically for the home hobby player, always have been, and probably always will be.

Bill


Thats not entirely true.

Korg has allways been aiming at musicians in general and not so much at homeplayers with their arranger lines...

Thats why Korg adds a professionall 76 keys version and a class A harmonizer and more things.
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Yamaha Genos, Roland Jupiter 80, Ipad pro.

http://keyszone.boards.net

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#292686 - 09/12/10 11:34 AM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Bachus:
Thats not entirely true.

Korg has allways been aiming at musicians in general and not so much at homeplayers with their arranger lines...

Thats why Korg adds a professionall 76 keys version and a class A harmonizer and more things.


I agree with you..and I count the G70 in the same class..
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#292687 - 09/12/10 12:32 PM Re: Whats up with ROLAND?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I wish we would all stop making such a big deal about the difference between 'home' and 'pro' arrangers. There is NO SUCH THING. There are merely 'basic' and 'advanced' arrangers. Just as there are 'basic' pro players, and 'advanced' home players. What a player needs has got VERY little to do with whether they are gigging or not. Especially when it comes to features like keyboard size (bet you there are FAR more home pianists than pro ones!) or the desire for a good vocalizer.

There's only one reason anyone would call an arranger 'home' or 'pro', and it's all about how that person perceives themselves. But the needed capabilities are exactly the same. Personally, I can't think of a single 'pro' feature that an advanced home player wouldn't use.

But once you get past the hot button words of 'home' and 'pro', what we end up arguing about, usually in the most asinine way, is whether 'advanced' features should be on an arranger. And who, in their right minds, thinks that THAT is a bad idea? Bring them on! The more, the merrier You are deluding yourself if you think that only gigging pros appreciate them.

I know of totally amateur players that could play circles around some of the 'real deal' so-called pros that post here. How come what THEY want is considered 'pro'?
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