Yeah, I guess you will, pal...but the only thing circular is your perception...

Thanks,

Ian

Everyone’s perception has to be circular in order to follow your circular reasoning. If we didn't we would not be able to communicate with you.

Whatever you say, pal...it's become obvious you really cannot understand the simplest explanations without turning them into something complex that your limited perception can not come to grips with.

Have the last word if you need to...otherwise, please zip it....I've had several private messages from members advising me not to waste my time on you.

I'm going to take their advice.

Thanks for nothing,

Ian

Actually, it is you who are making something simple very complicated. Where I explained a very simple concept you as usually try to twist the facts and complicate things. But As you like. As you probably are realizing, the more you talk the more you are coming around to understanding Yamaha’s business policy.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-11-2010).]

What a load of rubbish... almost a whole spat based around something false in the first place..

I have always said I am VERY much the exception when it comes to holding on to keyboards (it ain't just arrangers, folks!), it has NOTHING to do with me being a Roland user. Back when Roland were updating their product line at the same rate everybody else was, there was no overwhelming consensus that their products had a longer shelf life than anything else, and the same kind of people that think now that upgrading to every new model of Yamaha arranger makes sense were upgrading to every new Roland arranger just as much.

Of course, now Roland have left the TOTL and MOTL business completely, no Roland user actually has a choice, so we ALL have to hang on to our G70's and E80's etc.. But, trust me, if Roland WERE bringing out new product, most users of their older arrangers would be updating their gear as fast as any other manufacturers' customers do...

Just not me...

Personally, I am convinced that most of the GAS (gear acquisition syndrome ) going on in arrangers is due to the fatigue factor... When you rely on the arranger to do much of the work, pretty soon you bump up against the fact that it always sounds the same. So you rush out and get ANYTHING new. A few new sounds, a few new styles, you're happy again (for a short while). Then, it's 'rinse and repeat' ad nauseam.

But once you realize that true musical growth really only ever comes from YOU and your PLAYING, the need for something, anything, fresh and new can be satisfied without resorting to buying it...

There is no difference between Roland and Yamaha at all, unless you count that Roland aren't making MOTL and TOTL arrangers AT ALL. But when they WERE, their business model was no different to Yamaha, and their users (on the whole) were also pretty much the same, IMO.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-11-2010).]

Guys ..you are worried about Roland...for nothing..

Roland is an exceptional, solid company..

If you were able to see figures world wide..they are very profitable..yes even compared to Yamaha..and don't be surprised to see Roland's bottom line..stronger than Yamaha...I posted an independent financial bit a few month's ago, that showed exactly that..

Roland has reasons for holding off some production models...I was told this 3 years ago (that it was to be)...

Will there be atop of the line Roland arranger again...you bet your bippy..

If you notice some of the lower priced keyboards from Roland..showing a great media playback, and another with an 8 track recorder....these are the future features I mentioned 3 years ago..(I was told they were in the pipeline)..

BTW: My source is a legitimate "in" person..

Be patient..one of the reasons, production was curtailed..has pretty much been resolved now...(It has to do with facility)..

Roland has been one of the strongest companies in the music business..for a long time..and will remain so...


It sort of reminds me how folks view Casio...you know the company that outsells Yamaha keyboards by a large margin...

Hey cutey...I've seen you squabble over less rubbish.

Pull in your little horns before they get caught in something...you're frightening the children, especially Genny.

You said it yourself, Roland had no low end arrangers to support the high and mid if sales (or the economy) fluctuated.

They were caught, like many other companies, without being prepared.

If we are to believe Mr. Fran, and why wouldn't we since he is the Roland guru on SZ (even higher than you, maybe?), then the good ship Roland will nail another TOTL arranger to the mast, and all will be hunky dory.

Let's hope so...what they are producing right now wouldn't be too useful to pro players like you and Fran, unless you're going in the Karaoke business.

I'd love to see another Roland arranger flagship, dripping with new sounds and features, and sporting a lighter chassis and streamlined cabinet...competition is healthy, and all of us benefit, no matter what T-shirt we wear.

Ian

PS...I hope you're gettin' lots of work.

If they do outsell Yamaha, the more power to them Fran.

Unfortunately, they do not make any arrangers with enough professional features to compete with the high and mid models of Yamaha and Korg, and at one time, Roland.

Their business model is similar to Yamaha's and obviously works alarmingly well, and I'm sure, with their clout, they could easily break into the mid to high end arranger market with ease, and really be competitive.

Again, competition always makes companies sit up and take notice, and we the players/users/consumers always benefit greatly.

Truthfully, I was disappointed that Roland left the market...there's nothing stopping me from buying a Roland if I felt it would benefit my kit...I'm not limited to what brands I buy for personal use...just the brands I demo.

Personally, I'd be surprised if they go back to TOTL arrangers akin to the G-70/G-1000...more than likely, their stage pianos will take on more arranger-like features.

But, if you have an "inside source" that says they'll make one, it must be true. Right?

Ian

Until Roland bring out some NEW technology in those BOTL arrangers they are making, I don't see the point to a return to the TOTL arena. There isn't really ANYTHING on a Prelude unique in any way, or a GW-8. The sound engine is mature (Sonic Cell, not exactly a barn burning product itself), the overall OS is simply stripped down G70/E60, there's barely one or two new capabilities over even a G1000 (we FINALLY got multiple Drum Parts in a style, whoop-ti-do! ).

But overall, I never got the impression that Roland were even trying that hard. I must confess, being part of the Roland Arranger Division must seem like being relegated to Siberia for any competent keyboard designer...! The Prelude/GW-8 just seems like a recycling job for them. Old arranger technology, cobbled onto a sound chip that never set the world on fire in the first place.

I truly believe that, when all is said and done, the sounds and the styles make any arranger. Everything else is just fluff. And there's just too much that is very raw, unfinished, and unpolished about the Prelude's OOTB sound to attract the majority of the low end market - players that WANT everything pretty much done for them. That's Yamaha's strength, and what helps them overcome their somewhat anemic sound (compared to Roland or Korg or Ketron). It might be anemic, but you don't have to mess with it much to get it to sound polished. You HAVE to work a GW-8 pretty hard before it's ready for prime time.

I get the impression that Roland are WAY under budget when it comes to their sound voicing and style creation teams, these days. Roland styles USED to be the benchmark, but they have stripped that section down to the point where, I sometimes think there are better sound designers and style creators on many amateur forums compared to what Roland hires.

There's altogether too much writing on the wall to make me believe that Roland are doing anything more than coasting on their run at getting BOTL sales to increase. It really IS going to take something quite innovative to kickstart their rise from the ashes, and I haven't seen the slightest evidence of it, yet. Me, I just put this down to corporate inertia, I honestly think that, if there wasn't already an Arranger Division, Roland would never START one now...

Now, don't get me wrong, the GW8 is a pretty good arranger at its' price point. But it's a pretty good arranger for guys like me, more concerned with raw basic SOUND than bells and whistles, and having the skills to re-voice it to sound closer to its' capabilities. But it AIN'T a good arranger for the vast majority of people that buy arrangers at that price...

Thing is, I really don't see anything innovative in the slightest even in Roland's WS Fantom line. Yes, the FantomG is a good combination of features to make trance music, etc., but the raw technology under the hood is all mature. Only the re-voicing capabilities of the Brass ARX board got me even slightly awake, and it's demo's were not all that impressive. The rest of what's good is mostly to do with it being a virtual studio in a box, which AIN'T what most people buy arrangers for!

Until Roland bring out something innovative in the WS line, what on earth makes us think they even HAVE anything innovative to stick in a TOTL arranger..?

Personally, I'd rather see Roland get COMPLETELY out of the arranger market, and concentrate ALL their efforts on new technology for the WS and Stage line of things, than do it as halfheartedly as I see them trying now. Maybe if they DO come out with something that rocks, they can revisit the arranger field and recapture their glory days, but it's kind of sad to see how far they have slid into apathy.

Great post, Diki.

Most of the technology that Yamaha sells in the Tyros line is a few years old as well, but it gets polished, improved, and added to, with each subsequent model.

I think where we'll see more arranger features, is on Roland's stage pianos, although what's on them presently is not really sophisticated. I'm not sure if they can play inversions, for instance.

I'm not sure that Korg is any healthier than Roland, so it may be that they aren't going to replace TOTL arrangers either.

That would be a shame, because then Yamaha would have no reason to strive harder to be competitive...and we Yammie guys will actually lose because of it.

Did you get to play an Audya yet?

Ian