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#284627 - 04/05/10 08:43 AM
Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/24/08
Posts: 3131
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#284630 - 04/05/10 11:33 AM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Member
Registered: 04/02/10
Posts: 264
Loc: Cape Coral, Florida USA
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Nothing wrong at all with that " Old Funky Stuff "!The Audya really shines with the Funk, and the Rock accompaniments! When performing for a younger crowd, the Audya kicks some major Butt! I agree the Yamaha's have a balanced " Sweet " sound, in fact I think Yamaha ( Tyros 3 ) has earned the Pretty Accompaniments award in my book. However the Audya's use of real audio drums and guitars creates a LIVE BAND on stage sound that has never been accomplished with any of the dozen or so arrangers I have played professionally over the years.
The ease of adjusting the balance between the drums, bass, lower background voice, solo voice etc. is also a big plus for the Audya.
Don't get me wrong, the Yamaha line of arrangers are great machines. However the enjoyment and satisfaction of what the Audya does for the player and the audience, I feel is unsurpassed. I have both the Audya and the Tyros 3 with me on stage so I speak with experience. For a LIVE, Realistic sound on stage, the Audya win's. Especially with the Rock, Funk and R&B accompaniments. I have appropriately nick named the Audya, " THE BEAST"!
I'm having the time of my life six nights a week!
Jim
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#284634 - 04/05/10 02:53 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1264
Loc: United Kingdom
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#284641 - 04/06/10 05:24 AM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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The use of a SMF taints whatever impression I may have had about this or any other arranger keyboard. As soon as you introduce the SMF, you have to conclude that you could do the same with controller and module, controller and laptop, any other SMF-playing non-arranger keyboard, etc. The whole point of demo'ing an arranger keyboard (IMO) is to demonstrate it's ARRANGER capabilities. Of course the quality of the sounds is important, but if that is the primary criterium, the Mediastation or a laptop full of premium sounds and loops could surely best it.
I doubt if a professional photographer wants a 'point and shoot' camera as his primary tool so how can a professional musician admire most the features that demand less of him as a musician? I can understand some of the sentiments here on this board because we have a mix of players that range from strictly amateur home players to full-time pro's. Obviously their needs are not the same and neither would be their desired feature set. But for pro's to drool over a keyboard because of the way a SMF sounds when played through it, is mystifying to me.
I had perked up initially because I thought Ketron had finally introduced some styles that I could warm up to (I'm not a fan of Ketron styles), but that bubble was quickly burst with the disclosure that it was a SMF. BTW, this is not 'anti-arranger' talk, it is merely questioning what it is we're admiring here.
chas
[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 04-06-2010).]
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#284643 - 04/06/10 05:37 AM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
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Originally posted by cgiles: The use of a SMF taints whatever impression I may have had about this or any other arranger keyboard. As soon as you introduce the SMF, you have to conclude that you could do the same with controller and module, controller and laptop, any other SMF-playing non-arranger keyboard, etc. The whole point of demo'ing an arranger keyboard (IMO) is to demonstrate it's ARRANGER capabilities. Of course the quality of the sounds is important, but if that is the primary criterium, the Mediastation or a laptop full of premium sounds and loops could surely best it.
I doubt if a professional photographer wants a 'point and shoot' camera as his primary tool so how can a professional musician admire most the features that demand less of him as a musician? I can understand some of the sentiments here on this board because we have a mix of players that range from strictly amateur home players to full-time pro's. Obviously their needs are not the same and neither would be their desired feature set. But for pro's to drool over a keyboard because of the way a SMF sound when played through it, is mystifying to me.
I had perked up initially because I thought Ketron had finally introduced some styles that I could warm up to (I'm not a fan of Ketron styles), but that bubble was quickly burst with the disclosure that it was a SMF. BTW, this is not 'anti-arranger' talk, it merely questioning what it is we're admiring here.
chas To be honest I also was thinking it was a style he was playing. Now it doesn't sound so good to me anymore.
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#284644 - 04/06/10 06:36 AM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by cgiles: The use of a SMF taints whatever impression I may have had about this or any other arranger keyboard. As soon as you introduce the SMF, you have to conclude that you could do the same with controller and module, controller and laptop, any other SMF-playing non-arranger keyboard, etc. Yes, it taints my impression as well...I'm rather disappointed that a style was not being used. The drums were still very impressive, and the organ sound was rather good, but as for someone saying it's the "best sounding" arranger available, I can't agree with that either, Chas. I've heard much better guitars on the Tyros3 and equally as impressive organ sounds on the Korg, and even the older Roland G-70...but the drums are really a very realistic representation of a "live" drummer. But drums do not a complete arranger make, any more than organ sounds or guitars, or even the styles themselves...they all(arrangers) have something unique to offer and to make them desirable to certain types of players. Drums were never a big issue for my kind of playing, but good styles and realistic voices are very important to my choice of playing all instrumental and, mostly, background music...not dance...hence my choice of Yamaha arrangers. The Audya would be far down on my list of choices, but that's not to say it isn't a great instrument; it no doubt shines for certain purposes...just not mine. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#284661 - 04/06/10 08:59 AM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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Originally posted by Tonewheeldude: The trouble is, some people are using this as a support forum. Posting a question here and expecting an answer is rather silly. they need to go through the correct channels.
..........and.......................
If I wanted support or help with a problem on my new ThinkPad I would never dream of asking for official assistance on a general internet forum with a few dozen active members. I would be on the phone to my reseller like a shot. TWD, I'm usually in lockstep with anyone who has the good taste to recognize the tonewheel organ for the magnificent instrument it is..........HOWEVER, forums such as SZ, with knowledgeable members like Diki, Gary, Ian, Fran, Rikki, DonM, James, MAC, even yourself, and yes, even DNJ , would seem to me to be an ideal place to go for answers, especially when it appears one can go for weeks, months, sometimes forever, and not get a response from what should be the normal support channels. In fact, practically every major piece of musical or recording equipment seems to have a support forum, so why do you think the idea of posting a question here ("and expecting to get an answer") is "silly". It would certainly be INCLUDED in the list of places I'd go for support if I owned an Audya. JMO. chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#284665 - 04/06/10 11:48 AM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Member
Registered: 04/02/10
Posts: 264
Loc: Cape Coral, Florida USA
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Hi Guys, I realize I'm a newcomer to this forum as a member, however I have followed it for years. I can't help but chuckle to my self reading some of your posts.
It seems to me the discussions and what seems like arguments are between the Audya or other Ketron product owners, and the NON Audya or other Ketron product owners! What I read about the Audya from the NON Audya owners the most is about the PRICE. Features and Benefits for the money! I say:
If you can't afford this incredible piece of technology quit slamming it and talking about how you can accomplish the same thing for far less money doing this or doing that! The bottom line here with the Audya is the quality of sound, what your ears hear coming out of this machine.
The authenticity of the instruments is unmatched by any other keyboard I've ever heard or played. Just listen to the Swing Trumpet for example, Ketron should have installed a spit valve on this keyboard! Thats just one example, the list of just as good is quite extensive on this machine. They will even be better, ( I can't imagine )with the upgrades included in OS4.
In the almost 40 years I have been playing professionally, I have NEVER EVER had so many compliments come from my audience's! To me, that alone is worth $4,900 all day long!
Clean the wax out of your ears and appreciate what Ketron has put together for us keyboard musicians.
If you play professionally, it doesn't matter if you do your own sequencing, play midi files, mp3's, styles or whatever. Your audience doesn't know the difference anyways.
However they will recognize the quality of sound. You get what you pay for with the AUDYA, PERIOD!
Jim
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#284668 - 04/06/10 12:29 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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What surprised me is that none of you actually NOTICED it was an SMF. I would have thought here of all places... However, I must disagree with those that say that using an SMF takes LESS skill than style mode. It all depends on what you are actually PLAYING, and whether you are burning up a two fisted piano part, or doing your best Jan Hammer fusion licks, or holding down both the comps AND the lead lines (none of which you can do in style mode), just because they are over an SMF doesn't negate the skill it takes to play them. There are some that think that, just because they are holding down ONE chord, and then playing a single line melody over the top, but the MACHINE is doing all the skilled playing, that it's actually THEM playing it! Sorry to burst your bubble... I agree that Messier COULD have made the SMF from style play (probably did in part because of the live drums), but don't discount what he was playing on the top. Pretty much all of it (the good bits, at least) took two hands to do, and couldn't have been played at all with one hand tied up doing the LH chord input... Style mode takes skill, sure. But don't get high and mighty because someone eschews it to be able to perform better than you can with one hand. The more I hear the Ketron live, the more I'm impressed with it. Sure, other arrangers might have it beat in a few areas, SA2, tonewheel sound, piano sound (a bit), but there isn't ONE of them that comes this close to the drums and bass. Not one... My primary concern with the Audya these days (other than getting Lee and Tony to go bug the hell out of an ACTUAL Ketron forum and leave us the hell alone ) is that I don't do Euro-styled music or Latin, and would want styles specifically for the US market with the wonderful live drums. And let's face it, Ketron's follow-up to the SD-1 and SD-5 hasn't exactly been swimming with new live drum styles of ANY kind, let alone those good for US dancers. Past performance is always an indicator of future performance, and Ketron haven't exactly shone in that department. As I've said many times, Live drum styles are a double edged sword. They are SO good, you are not going to be happy using non-Live drum styles. So this puts the burden on the style MAKERS (those with the skill to make great audio styles) to keep making more of them, and to cover gaps in their musical genres that are popular in the US (if they want our business, that is) and other countries. At least with a MIDI only arranger, third party or even new factory styles are going to sound VERY similar to the ROM ones (at least in tone). But I doubt that anyone is going to be making first rate Live Drum styles that don't simply re-use the existing patterns. And even if they DO, there's going to be a need for extraordinary care in making the drum sound match the ROM styles VERY closely. Unlike a MIDI style, you can't go in there and turn down the kick, or turn up the snare, or make the tom-toms more bright. In my mind at least, there is no doubt that the Audya's live styles are head and shoulders beyond what anyone has currently achieved with a MIDI arranger. That is its' strength, but unfortunately, its' weakness, too... (Sure wouldn't mind Tony's one nice and cheap after he messes it up and start to blame everybody ELSE for whatever problems he's going to find in OS4, though! )
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#284671 - 04/06/10 01:08 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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I think some DEALERS might be a good start... If I've got to drive over a thousand miles just to try one out (and heaven help me if there is a technical problem), at the price these are, getting a second one for backup is completely out of the question. If I revolve my entire show around one piece of gear, it's got to be bomb-proof AND relatively easy to get a backup if it goes down. Ketron's US Dealer locater is a joke. Several states are completely missing (not sure how those in La. and Miss. feel about that!) and many of the states actually listed have no dealer at all. And most of those states are bigger than whole COUNTRIES in the EU Ketron need to make up their mind. Do the WANT to be here or not? The way things are right now, they had better be building the most reliable piece of gear ever made... Until Ketron make a REAL effort to penetrate the US market (and that's probably going to have to include allowing the dealers to have the same markup on Audya's that they have on other arrangers), it seems kind of pointless acting as if making styles for us is going to make any difference. Sure, I'd love a bunch of real Cajun, Zydeco (they AREN'T the same thing!), reggae, country (NOT European country!), alternative rock, emo, southern rock, New Orleans Mardi Gras styles, not to mention hiphop and rap and MODERN R&B. Include them, but keep the dealers a thousand mile drive away, and it's still unlikely you are going to worry Yamaha or Korg in the least...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#284673 - 04/06/10 01:31 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Member
Registered: 04/02/10
Posts: 264
Loc: Cape Coral, Florida USA
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To Leezone: Just prior to the current Audya & Tyros 3, I played a Korg PA80 and a Yamaha PSR 3000. The Korg served me very well for many years. It is still in service, I use it at home once in a while. The PSR 3000, I felt was a GREAT Arranger for the money. I had a lot of fun playing that machine. I sold it to my previous partner. He uses it in his home studio, and enjoys making his own tracks to play and sing with.
Prior keyboards included a Technics KN-5000, a Roland G-1000, a Roland ep-9 with a Kurzweil piano module midi in, a PSR 6700, a Korg I-5 and going way back a Roland E-20. Even further back, a Lowrey Symphonic Theater Organ which I played for 13 years. All 550 pounds of it. Also owned and played a Wurlitzer Theater organ and 2 Hammond's. A B-3 and a L-100 model and a Gulbranson. Still have the Wurlitzer and the Hammond L-100.
I've probably missed a couple other keyboards in there somewhere.
In our local music store, I tried out the Korg PX2Pro, but felt it wasn't that much of a sound improvement over my PA80. The latest Rolands, I haven't played. I was very disappointed in my G-1000 so I didn't keep up with the Roland's except seeing video's on YouTube.
I bought my Audya without ever playing it. My decision to buy was based only on internet research. Both the Audya and Tyros3 are winners in my book.
Jim
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#284677 - 04/06/10 02:02 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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That's the problem with being so far away from one to try for any length of time. POSSIBLY I might be able to use styles already aboard for some songs, etc., but I'll never know from a simple style list. And I'm not brave enough to buy one on spec, even at a reasonable price. Personally, I think that Ketron have missed a great opportunity. By going high price, low volume, they have essentially relegated the Audya to Wersi-like unavailability (and look at what happened to THEM), whereas, if they slashed their margins and dropped the price to something closer to what most of us ARE willing to pay (probably sub-$3500 in the US, street), I can't honestly think of a single person looking at a new arranger NOT wanting one. And 100% of the market, even at a low margin is better than 1% of the market with a high markup. Ask Wersi...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#284681 - 04/06/10 02:08 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/16/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Netherlands
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Originally posted by NiteLife: Hi Guys, I realize I'm a newcomer to this forum as a member, however I have followed it for years. I can't help but chuckle to my self reading some of your posts.
It seems to me the discussions and what seems like arguments are between the Audya or other Ketron product owners, and the NON Audya or other Ketron product owners! What I read about the Audya from the NON Audya owners the most is about the PRICE. Features and Benefits for the money! I say:
If you can't afford this incredible piece of technology quit slamming it and talking about how you can accomplish the same thing for far less money doing this or doing that! The bottom line here with the Audya is the quality of sound, what your ears hear coming out of this machine.
The authenticity of the instruments is unmatched by any other keyboard I've ever heard or played. Just listen to the Swing Trumpet for example, Ketron should have installed a spit valve on this keyboard! Thats just one example, the list of just as good is quite extensive on this machine. They will even be better, ( I can't imagine )with the upgrades included in OS4.
In the almost 40 years I have been playing professionally, I have NEVER EVER had so many compliments come from my audience's! To me, that alone is worth $4,900 all day long!
Clean the wax out of your ears and appreciate what Ketron has put together for us keyboard musicians.
If you play professionally, it doesn't matter if you do your own sequencing, play midi files, mp3's, styles or whatever. Your audience doesn't know the difference anyways.
However they will recognize the quality of sound. You get what you pay for with the AUDYA, PERIOD!
Jim I am not saying I can't afford an Audy. That's not my point. That thing is much to expensive for what it delivers. Even if I had the money I wouldn't buy one. I would spend my money for something much better like a arranger with a workstation. And if you think a Korg PA2XPro doesn't sound much better then a Korg PA80 then you clean the wax out of your ears.
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#284684 - 04/06/10 03:33 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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Originally posted by leezone: Diki,
you are starting to think like me :-)
you are falling in love with the AUDYA sound and are wishing it was a whole lot cheaper :-) I'm just not whining about it incessantly, and posting thread after thread asking stupid questions of people that have no idea what the answer is, that's all... Always DID like the Audya sound, said so from the day Demo #1 was posted. But there's a LOT more to the issue than just the sound. Maybe I don't care whether it has USB1 or USB3, being of a more practical nature than you, but I'm still concerned about the issue of how well the audio and MIDI guitar chords blend together, how well supported the future new Live drum styles are going to be (past performance isn't exactly inspiring), how well supported the US market will be for service and repair (let alone even auditioning one), and things of a practical nature. But I'm NOT going to post ten times a day asking the same and related questions to people that have NO IDEA what the answer is, don't CARE what the answer is, and are getting VERY mad at me for doing so even when asked to stop But don't let that stop YOU...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#284686 - 04/06/10 04:37 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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Anything by Marley. Anything by Tosh. No 'fake' reggae for me, please! But no styles that are clones of ONE tune. Useless for anything else. This is the problem with using players that are good, but unfamiliar with the 'style'. You end up with clones, and they are only good for the one song. Takes real skill to make a style that works across a wide range of songs... Anything by the Neville Bros. Anything by the Meters. REAL New Orleans, not fake Dixieland, and CALL it New Orleans! Second Line. Parade beats. Something that does Springsteen or Tom Petty well. Maybe something along Allman Bros. lines. Lynyard Skinyard, James Bros... MODERN country, not Waylon and Willy and the boys..! Keith Urban. Kenny Chesney. Carrie Underwood. Nickle Creek bluegrass, not 50's style. Zydeco. Anything by Buckwheat Zydeco, Boozoo Chavis, that sort of thing. GOTS to have a washboard, or it ain't Cajun of Zydeco! Modern alt rock bands like the All American Rejects, Killers, etc.. And we haven't even SCRATCHED the surface of modern hiphop, rap, crunk, stuff the kids like... That give you a start?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#284687 - 04/06/10 05:33 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Moderator
Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1537
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Originally posted by Diki: Anything by Marley. Anything by Tosh. No 'fake' reggae for me, please! But no styles that are clones of ONE tune. Useless for anything else. This is the problem with using players that are good, but unfamiliar with the 'style'. You end up with clones, and they are only good for the one song. Takes real skill to make a style that works across a wide range of songs...
Anything by the Neville Bros. Anything by the Meters. REAL New Orleans, not fake Dixieland, and CALL it New Orleans! Second Line. Parade beats.
Something that does Springsteen or Tom Petty well. Maybe something along Allman Bros. lines. Lynyard Skinyard, James Bros...
MODERN country, not Waylon and Willy and the boys..! Keith Urban. Kenny Chesney. Carrie Underwood. Nickle Creek bluegrass, not 50's style.
Zydeco. Anything by Buckwheat Zydeco, Boozoo Chavis, that sort of thing. GOTS to have a washboard, or it ain't Cajun of Zydeco!
Modern alt rock bands like the All American Rejects, Killers, etc..
And we haven't even SCRATCHED the surface of modern hiphop, rap, crunk, stuff the kids like...
That give you a start?
I got distracted...but yep...thanks for that
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#284690 - 04/07/10 12:53 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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Well, as long as Donny's never heard of it, it MUST be rubbish, mustn't it? Thing is, I'm listing music that is VERY American. Most of what Donny plays is likely to be played by Europeans, too, consequently he DOES have good styles for them. But I wonder how he feels about the more obscure Latin styles? I bet I could name a dozen Latin stars he's never heard of either, but THEIR music is well represented by styles. Ketron make quite an effort to court the Latin music players, but seemingly little to address more obscure forms of American music (well, obscure to Donny, perhaps. I bet there's a LOT more people have heard of many of these than he thinks). If what THEY play is important enough to make styles for them, why isn't US music? BTW, Donny, if you've never heard of Keith Urban, Tom Petty, Carrie Underwood, The Neville Bros., Bruce frickin' Springsteen for Pete's sake (how can you live in NJ and not know HIM? ) perhaps you might quit doting on your moldy old doo-wop records and turn the RADIO on now and again? You have to gasp at the monstrous ego of someone that, if it isn't something THEY play, they don't think it matters... Every single band in my area plays something by most of those artists. Don't know of ANYONE that does old Italian American standards, though. I guess by his standards, they don't need styles either. "play what YOU like and enjoy the music. There are NO rules...good luck".... No rules other than what Donny thinks matters, anyway! Enjoy what EVERYBODY plays, not just your own tiny niche...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#284691 - 04/07/10 01:05 PM
Re: Robert Messier ROCKIN...AUDYA
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
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And to lee. No, sadly, there isn't much in the way of styles for MUCH of that. Not just the Audya, but pretty much ALL arrangers are styled by Europeans, for Europeans. But they make an effort for the Latin players, they make an effort for the Middle Eastern players, they make an effort for the Asian players, but somehow, American music (other than dated styles from the seventies and before, which are popular in Europe) is pretty much ignored.
There is much criticism made of many manufacturers' Latin styles. Few other than Ketron seem to get it right in the eyes of those actually PLAYING Latin TO Latin audiences. Why isn't there as much criticism of bland, out of date and stylistically inaccurate AMERICAN styles? Or of whole genres of popular music (popular except in NJ, perhaps!) almost completely missing from the style lists..?
The horse has GOT to come before the cart... You can't say you don't make good American styles because Americans don't buy many arrangers. Americans don't buy arrangers BECAUSE you don't make good styles for them...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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