I'm a bit concerned even though it hasn't directly affected me, my neighbour was burgled two nights ago and now of course feeling a bit anxious especially since I've only just got my T3 the last thing i'd even want was to get it stolen. I am insured but even so i'd rather not lose it in the first place.

I was thinking maybe I should move it into my bedroom instead of having it in the main living room where it's really obvious to see, but then I'd always have to go upstairs a lot of the time. There is no easy way of hiding such a bit unit like this.

Thanks for reading, I guess I was just getting it off my chest.

Thanks,
Danny.

Danny,

Sorry to hear of your neighbor's misfortune. In this part of the world, where guns are still permitted to be owned by ordinary citizens, the burglar has a good chance of being ventilated. If I recall, in the UK only criminals have guns. If that's the case, an alarm system, with an outdoors sign may be of some benefit, and could possibly act as a deterrent. Just some food for thought.

Good luck,

Gary

My 2 cent's.

A Burglar Alarm is a great deterrent. Just seeing that box sitting on the front of your house will put them off when there are other houses around that don't have one.

Wireless systems are dead easy to install too and run for about 2 to 3 years before needing any battery attention.

When I was living in the City our home was broken into as well as a few others on the same night. Not one of the houses that had an alarm were touched.

It's the worst feeling ever, so get an alarm ASAP.

Regards
James

A burglar alarm AND a 9mm Glock is the real ticket. Oh yes, don't forget the big ass German Shepard. You Brits might as well invite the burglar in, give him a spot of tea and help him carry the loot to the car. We would give him a spot of tea here in the States also but it would leak out of the holes in him put there by the 9mm Glock.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 03-26-2010).]

I understand the anger but I'd hate to find out the burgler I just killed was a 16 yr. old kid. Let's see now, human life vs. Tyros 3, hmmmmm, tough choice. On the other hand, if someone came for my Nord C1......

chas

Danny,

The guys in the states are right we should have guns like they do and just shoot, in the UK we appear to end up doing what they do in the USA 10 years on, but never on guns will we follow. They are probably the same in the states, order a pizza and ring for the police, the pizza will come first. James is right if you have an alarm box on the wall usually they will move on to the next one that hasn�t, if you leave KB on display or even start playing loud someone will notice, also don�t ever leave you door or car keys on the bottom stair, they will fish it through the front door. The police say make it difficult for them and they will move on, you average criminal wants something small under the arm so change the plastic T3 for a very heavy metal ****** or a ****** or a ********, if he�s on his own he won�t be able to carry it. Frankly, you don�t want him in your house it must be very very distressing, some people never ever get over it. Do you have a neighborhood watch?

Regards Danny


[This message has been edited by Tony Hughes (edited 03-26-2010).]

Keep in mind that if you get a gun , fear could push you intoo using it even when those burglars are unarmed.

Thats why people are not allowed to have guns in their posession at home in the mopre civilised countries of this world like the Netherlands.

the problem is that you wont know if they are unarmed or not. I know i would prefer not to leave all the options to the burglar.

If you look at crime in the UK, Gun crime (In most crime committed) is negligible and changing the law to allow everyone to have a gun will just cause more criminals to buy one, AND be prepared to use it.
This is the last thing you want, as it just moves crime up to a whole new level where a Tyros 3 becomes more valuable than a human life.
In the States they have always had guns all through their history, whereas in the UK they haven�t, so how crime is tackled in one country, cannot be transferred to another.

Bill

The USA intentional murder rate is 5.4 per 100,000 people. UK is 2.3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate.

Overall, the crime rates in the US are the highest in the 1st world, and the per capita prison population is the highest in the world. Either we have the nastiest people in the world, or we're doing the wrong things to deter crime.

BTW, sorry about your neighbor.

Beakybird

Gun law is a very touchy subject in the US and many a politician has risen or fallen based on his or her stance on it.

During our brief stay in Florida, a law was passed which allowed you to shoot any person (on your property) whom you PERCEIVED to be a threat, with no consequences, no possibility of prosecution, and no questions asked. On the very first day after the law was passed, a Black motorist left his disabled car and walked up to a nearby house in a predominately White neighborhood, to ask if he could use a phone to call AAA (as reported by his passenger/wife). The homeowner came to the door with a shotgun and shot him dead before he could even speak one word. He later claimed he perceived the man as a threat (although the man was well groomed and in a suit and tie) and was never charged.

Here in Georgia, a new extension of the gun law that would allow guns to be carried openly in bars, churches, college campuses, and even up to the boarding areas at airports, has already passed the house and is expected to become law in the next few days. Guns in bars? Gosh, what could go wrong there. Better wrap that Tyros in some Kevlar. You never know when one of those nursing home residents will whip out a muzzle-loader and open up if they don't like what you're playing . A few of you need to be extra careful . JMO.

chas

Danny - sorry about your neighbor, and I understand your fears ...

That FL gun law is ridiculous, and chas your story is so tragic, I could only WISH that it didn't happen that way ... the reverse to that is situations where if a person is on your property for the intent of burglarizing your home, and they get injured stepping into a deep hole or something, they can sue YOU for not taking care of a potentially dangerous condition ...

Our home was burglarized, and based on the circumstances and the condition of the house when we walked in, we think they were still in the house when we arrived home ...
I can tell you it is a very bad feeling when it happens ... the feeling of having been violated and the fear of it happening again ... of course the alarm system was put in the following week ... and put into the current house as it was being built ...
But alarms aren't always the answer either ... our next door neighbor has an alarm ... they were away for a while and apparently what happened was the thieves parked a service van on the street blocking the view of the telephone/electrical power box and disconnected the phone lines to the house which disabled the alarm ...

I don't think guns are the answer either ... there have been too many tragic stories about little children getting hold of the weapon and injuring or even killing themselves ...
I only wish I had the answer ...

t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 03-27-2010).]

The most effective alarm systems I've seen are those that not only dial the telephone, but in addition, they turn on house lights and sound a loud audible alarm, both indoors and outdoors. The only drawback with these is if they go off inadvertently and there's no one at home to shut it down, it will drive the neighbors crazy until you come home and turn it off using the keypad code.

As for the guns, I've lived in towns where everyone had one, and their crime rate was lower than any city that does not allow them. Washington, DC is a good example--no guns allowed, murder rate off the charts, one of the highest crime rates in the nation.

Cheers,

Gary

For what its worth, a gun is not the answer unless you want to be on this following chart.

It is best to deter and not having to resort in guns to resolve a situation like this.

No matter what your target practice scores are, when andrenaline pumps through your veins, your aim will be sh#t. So a gun is not a solution.

That gun law that was mentioned, IMHO reflects the complete absense of grey matter for both the legislator and the people who voted "yes" for him.

Here in Norway there's now a lot of burglary, robbery and stealing
done by people coming into this country from i.e. Romania.
They're everywhere, begging on the streets, stealing in shops, in
private houses, at the local marinas around stealing outboard motors
and so on.
They even stop cars on the road when fake engine trouble or empty fuel
tanks, and when somebody stop to help, they does robbery and steal the
cars.
And if that's not enough, they try tell people they're from Poland,
and that way try to make us think it's our hard working guest workers
that mostly does a great work who are to blame.
Guns is not enough, cut off the heads where the hips begin, and feed
the sharks with the dead meat!
Nope, not a chanche in this country, this is a paradise for criminals
swindlers and thiefs.
If we harm a buglar, we're the ones going to jail and have to pay big
compensation because we scared the poor devil!
Shame on us!


Sorry, not arranger topic, but I had to let it out.....

GJ

I once worked with a man 40 plus years ago, his thoughts on killing were interesting. "We all have the ability to kill another very easily." He went on to say " we have to be angry enough and have a weapon ( he was referring to a gun). Given that situation where the 2 factors come together it could easily happen to any of us despite the fact we here are NOT killers at heart. Guns do not scare me, but I don't want to own one in part because of the above reason.

Not sure Tony Mads remembers the story of local Coventry RI resident who shot to death his estranged wife and then turned the gun on himself. He was a long time friend who was at one time just a regular guy who worked hard, made a lot of money in real estate then cheated on his wife with the wrong woman, then married her. It was the second marriage that was a mistake. Bad went to worse, this guy got leukemia she divorced him and he flipped out. Problem was he owned guns and he decided to use them. In 1974 when I met this guy who became my tennis partner and close friend I would have bet he would be the last person in the world to have committed such a reprehensible act.


Gunar, then you have the scum bags that your country is dealing with. It's unfortunate that the innocent citizens are paying a price.




[This message has been edited by Stephenm52 (edited 03-27-2010).]

Gary ... our alarm doesn't turn on the lights, but otherwise works that way... when it goes off it dials the central office of the alarm company, and they try to contact us ... if they can't get us or one of our family members they dispatch the police ... once the police get to the house the central office can turn off the alarm ... the alarm has gone off on a couple of occasions and the police response time has been great ...

Steve ... if I'm not mistaken that happened around the time I was playing at Barbara's Restaurant in Coventry ...

t.



[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 03-27-2010).]

Take a look at that gun chart again. Forget third world countries. Look at the figures for the USA, and then look at the UK figures. Are the English really THAT nice? I don't remember it being that way!

But the USA has virtually FORTY times the murder rate. And England has exactly the same problems vis a vis drugs, a permanent underclass, high immigration (legal and otherwise), economic collapse and permanent poverty of a portion of the people there.

How come THEY can settle their differences without a gun?

Oh yeah, that's right... we are all stiff upper lips, jolly good show, anyone for tennis types aren't we?

Bollocks we are, mate...

Oh... and that's an interesting comparison between the Wiki figures and the UNODC figures, isn't it?

Either there's a LOT of 'unintentional' murders going on in the States, or those are some pretty half baked assumptions by the Wiki site!

Let's see... if I HATE Tony, because of the Audya fixation and hijacking of SZ, and go there and shoot and kill him, them that's INTENTIONAL. But if I just break into his house randomly, and he gets in the way and I shoot and kill him, that's UNINTENTIONAL?

That's about the only way THOSE figures make any sense whatsoever...

Same thing here Gunnar, except we can be almost sure that it starts with government incompetence and not from government "niceness".

We also have this odd thing: Many Greeks were immigrating in the States or in Germany and Belgium to work, during the 50's and 60's. The same guys, now returned and want to throw out all immigrants out.

In the 10 years we have lived in our current house, we haven't had a break-in. We have a sophisticated alarm, stickers on the windows, a sign in the front yard and a 150 lb Great Pyranese in the back yard.

I have 4 rental houses and have about 4 break-ins a year. The neighborhoods are different and there aren't alarm systems.

At my warehouse, there have been many attempts at break-ins, but the alarm has motion sensors, sirens, etc. The only time there was a successful break-in, I was in the building at 6:30 AM one morning last year and didn't lock the door. I received damaging cuts on my left arm (severed tendons) that that have left we with mobility problems and numbness. I had a 5 shot 45 long colt Taurus in the drawer, loaded with 410 buckshot. I chose not to use it, but hurt the kid with a wooden club to the point where he spent several days in the hospital and, even though he was convicted of the criminal charges of breaking and entering and inflicting bodily harm, sued ME in civil court for injuries.

I'm still so very glad I didn't kill the kid, even though the injuries have permanently changed my life and music career.


R.


Russ

Russ ... I remember that incident ... how did his law suit turn out?
t.

Hi all, thanks for the replies! Gosh some of the stories here certainly give you food for thought and emphasises just how dangerous the situation can be.

I don't have any alarm systems or any extra form of deterrent installed on the house, I was always under the illusion (just as with a car) if someone want's to burgle it they will and nothing will stop them.

I am not sure but I've heard that a lot of burglaries are caused by people who you know or know of. A random burglary where someone just picks a house is probably a little more rare.

Danny

whatever the statistic (which are easily manipulate to reflect what ever you want the fact is when a burglar breaks into your house they have 100% choice as to whether they come in equiped to rob and kill if they feel necessary whether thats a knife , a gun, a hammer whatever and currently the law does not allow the householder in the UK any choice whatsover other than to use reasonable force to protect yourself. And then you have to work out what reasonable force is in a live situation and then still risk being sued or imprisoned yourself if your judgement is deemed wrong by a court.Much of the crime in this country is drug fueled and you have no idea if the burglar is high on drugs when they enter you home and the question of reasonable force gets really blurry. I have intercepted a robber not in my home but on the street and believe me when you hit someopne who is high they dont feel it like they would if they were dry ! My family is all that matters to me and my possesions are no where near as important however i am not willing to just let people walk in and walk out of my home with the things i worked hard for without some resistance .

I Know that i would rather have the same choice when it comes to equiping myself as burglar has.

The vast majority of normal human beings do not want intentionally to kill anyone (IMHO).

Just a thought...what about a weapon which will demobilise rather than kill?....Stun guns? anyone any take on this?

Eddie,

Depending upon where you reside, stun guns and Tasers, which can be quite effective, may not be legal. Some cities in the U.S. have taken steps to outlaw them because the thugs use them as well. When such ineffective laws such as those that outlaw guns go into effect the only people effected are honest, law-abiding citizens. The criminal element could care less--that's why they are criminals. There's an old saying in this part of the world "Never bring a knife to a gun fight1" Makes perfectly good sense to me.

Gary

I remember a 60 year old fellow at a nursing home with diabetes, chastising me about being vegetarian, saying that it was unhealthy.

That's like a gun slinging American who lives in the country with by far the highest crime rate in all the wealthy nations how to fight crime in the UK where there is a fraction of the crime.

From http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/gunviolence/gunsinthehome/

DID YOU KNOW? Where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths.

Gun death rates are 7 times higher in the states with the highest compared with the lowest household gun ownership. (Harvard School of Public Health, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, 2009).
An estimated 41% of gun-related homicides and 94% of gun-related suicides would not occur under the same circumstances had no guns been present (Wiebe, p. 780).
DID YOU KNOW? Keeping a gun in the home raises the risk of homicide.

States with the highest levels of gun ownership have 114 percent higher firearm homicide rates and 60 percent higher homicide rates than states with the lowest gun ownership (Miller, Hemenway, and Azrael, 2007, pp. 659, 660).
The risk of homicide is three times higher in homes with firearms (Kellermann, 1993, p. 1084).
Higher gun ownership puts both men and women at a higher risk for homicide, particularly gun homicide (Harvard School of Public Health, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, 2009).
DID YOU KNOW? Keeping a gun in the home raises the risk of suicide.

Keeping a firearm in the home increases the risk of suicide by a factor of 3 to 5 and increases the risk of suicide with a firearm by a factor of 17 (Kellermann, p. 467, p. Wiebe, p. 771).
The association between firearm ownership and increased risk of suicide cannot be explained by a higher risk of psychiatric disorders in homes with guns (Miller, p. 183).
DID YOU KNOW? A gun in the home is more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide, or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.

Every time a gun injures or kills in self-defense, it is used:

11 times for completed and attempted suicides (Kellermann, 1998, p. 263).
7 times in criminal assaults and homicides, and
4 times in unintentional shooting deaths or injuries.
DID YOU KNOW? Many children and teens live in homes with firearms, including ones that are loaded and unlocked.

One third of all households with children younger than eighteen have a firearm (Johnson, 2004 p.179).
More than 40% of gun-owning households with children store their guns unlocked (Schuster, p. 590).
One fourth of homes with children and guns have a loaded firearm (Johnson, 2004 p.179).
Between 6% and 14% of firearm owning households with a child under 18 have an unlocked and loaded firearm. (Johnson, 2004, p.175)
DID YOU KNOW? Parents may underestimate their children�s access to guns in the home. Women may not know about guns in the home or be unable to assure safe storage, despite wanting it.

Among gun-owning parents who reported that their children had never handled their firearms at home, 22% of the children, questioned separately, said that they had (Baxley and Miller, p. 542).
For unmarried mothers, when an adolescent boy reports a handgun in the home, nearly three-fourths of the mothers say there is no handgun in the home (Sorenson, p. 15).
Of youths who committed suicide with firearms, 82% obtained the firearm from their home, usually a parent�s firearm (The National Violent Injury Statistics System, p. 2).
When storage status was noted, about two-thirds of the firearms had been stored unlocked (The National Violent Injury Statistics System, p. 2).
Among the remaining cases in which the firearms had been locked, the youth knew the combination or where the key was kept or broke into the cabinet (The National Violent Injury Statistics System, p. 2).
Among married women living in gun-owning households, 94 percent believed in safe gun-storage practices but 43% of those households stored their family�s gun unsafely (Johnson, 2007, pp. 5, 8).
Women are less likely than men to own the guns in their homes (Johnson, 2007 p. 4).
Women are less likely than men to report a gun�s presence in the home (Johnson, 2004 p. 180).
SOLUTION: Without stronger, sensible gun laws, thousands upon thousands of people will continue to die and be injured needlessly each year. The Brady Campaign fights for sensible gun laws to protect you, your family, and your community.

Sources

Baxley, Fances, MD, and Matthew Miller, MD, ScD. �Parental Misperceptions About Children and Firearms.� Archives of Pediatric Adolescent Medicine. 160 (2006): 542-47.

Cook, Philip J, and Susan B. Sorenson. ��We�ve Got a Gun?�: Comparing Reports of Adolescents and Their Parents About Household Firearms.� Journal of Community Psychology 36 (2008): 1-19.

Harvard School of Public Health: Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Homicide � Suicide � Accidents � Children and Women. Boston: Harvard School of Public Health, 2009. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html.

Johnson, Renee M., MPH, Tamera Coyne-Beasley, MD, MPH, and Carol W. Runyan, PhD. �Firearm Ownership and Storage Practices, U.S. Households, 1992-2002.� American Journal of Preventive Medicine 27 (2004): 173-82.

Johnson, R.M., et al. �Storage of Household Firearms: An Examination of the Attitudes and Beliefs of Married Women with Children.� Health Education Research Advance Access (2007): 1-11.

Kellermann, Arthur L. MD., MPH, et al. �Gun Ownership As a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home.� New England Journal of Medicine 329 (1993) 1084-1119.

Kellermann, Arthur L.MD, MPH, et al. �Injuries and Deaths Due to Firearms in the Home.� Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care 45 (1998): 263-67.

Kellermann, Arthur L.MD, MPH, et al. �Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership.� New England Journal of Medicine 327 (1992): 467-72.

Miller, M, et al, �Recent Psychopathology, Suicidal Thoughts and Suicide Attempts in Households With and Without Firearms: Findings from the National Comorbidity Study Replication,� Injury Prevention 15(2009): 183-187

Miller, Matthew, David Hemenway, and Deborah Azrael. �State-Level Homicide Victimization Rates in the US in Relation to Survey Measures of Household Firearm Ownership, 2001-2003.� Social Science and Medicine 64 (2007) 656-64.

Miller, Matthew, Deborah Azrael, and David Hemenway. �Household Firearm Ownership and Suicide Rates in the United States.� Epidemiology 13 (2002) 517-524. Originally accessed through Harvard School of Public Health: Means Matters. Source of Firearms in Youth Suicides. Boston: Harvard School of Public Health, 2009. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/youth-access/index.html.|

Schuster, Mark A., Franke, Todd M., Bastian, Amy M., Sor, Sinaroth, Halfon, Neal. "Firearm Storage Patterns in U.S. Homes With Children," American Journal of Public Health 90(4) (April 2000):588-594

Sorenson, Susan B., Cook, Philip J., "'We've Got a Gun?': Comparing Reports of Adolescents and Their Parents About Household Firearms," Journal of Community Psychology 36 (1) (2008):1-19

The National Violent Injury Statistics System. Youth Suicide: Findings from a pilot for the National Violent Death Reporting System. Boston: Harvard Injury Control Research Center: Harvard School of Public Health, 2009. http://www.sprc.org/library/YouthSuicideFactSheet.pdf. Originally accessed through Harvard School of Public Health: Means Matters. Source of Firearms in Youth Suicides. Boston: Harvard School of Public Health, 2009. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/youth-access/index.html.

Wiebe, Douglas J. PhD. �Homicide and Suicide Risks Associated With Firearms in the Home: A National Case-Control Study.� Annals of Emergency Medicine 41 (2003): 771-82.

Guess that's only natural, just as if there are less cars, would'nt it be less
car accidents who cause death or other damage/injury?

Cheers
GJ

see what i mean about statistics ? what link does suicide rates have to do with gun ownership ? nothing at all ! Your state of mind doesnt alter to self destruction just because you might own a gun . come on !!!

Given a choice of being robbed and Tazered and robbed and shot, guess which I would choose?

We ought to have a program where ALL guns are exchanged for Tazers. No questions asked... villains and law abiding citizens alike. Then use the death penalty without appeal for anyone that uses a gun on a human, for any reason whatsoever. Bet you THAT would bring your murder stats in line with the rest of the civilized world...

You know, I see an awful lot of prejudice in the way Americans look at some other cultures... Take Middle Eastern countries, where walking around with a big sword or ceremonial knife is considered a man's right. See a video or newscast of them standing around in their white gowns, waving their scimitars, and 99% of Americans go 'what a stupid, primitive culture they have', all the while ignoring their own culture's fascination with firearms. I see little difference between the two, and I'm afraid my reaction is just the same...

What a stupid, primitive culture they have...

Well said Diki!
You and I are on the same wavelength.....except perhaps on arrangers

Well said Beaky Bird.

I don't know how you live with yourself if you shot or beat someone with a club just because they wanted your property.

Here in the UK gun crimes are still relatively rare although I have no doubt that they are increasing.

One of the biggest rise is the number of young black males from gangs who are killing each other as they emulate what they see already happening in the US and other gun crazy countries.

A good home security sytem appeals more to me than harming others. If you don't have a gun the you can't harm anyone - I know I'm being naieve but I'm thankful that I don't live in a country where you need to own a gun (yet).

KF

Now if every adult without a criminal record had a machine gun and a hand grenade that would make the country much, much safer. It's only logical.

Beakybird

Hmmmmm! Let me think about this. Should I try to break into a home, rape their daughter and steal the possessions of someone
that would hold the door open and help me load the stuff in my car? Or, would I do the same at the home of someone who will blow my freakin' brains and and shove a grenade up my a$$? Jeez, I just don't know which door to open. Give me a break!

But nobody buys a car SPECIFICALLY to be able to kill someone. Car accidents and deaths are an unintended result of their use for another completely different purpose. Let's face up to reality. The large percentage of handguns in America are bought for the sole purpose of killing someone (should the owner decide that is necessary for whatever reason). They honestly have no other purpose. Don't bring up the 'sporting use' issue, either. That's like saying that cars are bought to race... Sure, you CAN do that with a car (although it's dangerous), but it's not the overwhelming PRIMARY reason people buy cars.

And people don't buy handguns because they are determined to get a perfect '10' in the bullseye at a target shoot If that was the case, they could leave them at the range...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 03-29-2010).]

Actually, the vast majority of handguns that are used to kill someone in the U.S. are STOLEN--not purchased. And, I think this would be a safe bet in most parts of the world. Most people that purchase handguns in the U.S. are law abiding and do so for two reasons, self/home protection, and sporting purposes. CRIMINALS DON'T BUY GUNS--THEY STEAL THEM. And, if you have been convicted of a felony in this nation, by law you cannot purchase any form of firearm.

In many instances, where handguns are used competitively, the guns are either transported to the range in locked cases that are placed in the car's trunk, and the ammunition is in a separate, locked case. In most states, this is required by law. The only folks that ignore that law are usually criminals who stole the guns to begin with. At some of the larger ranges, they have special lockers just for the purpose of storing the gun at the range.

Good point Diki. I think travlin'easy is right, if anyone planning to use a car
or weapon to kill they will steal instead of buy just to try hide any traces.

Cheers
GJ

Then why are the states with the most crime the ones with the most lax gun laws?

Maybe if every one had a nuclear war head in their home, there would be no crime whatsoever. Who would break into a home knowing that the owner might be crazy enough to blow up the whole city? Give everyone a dirty bomb, because to paraphrase the NRA, "Dirty bombs don't kill people, people do."

Beakybird

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Given a choice of being robbed and Tazered and robbed and shot, guess which I would choose?


thats the entire problem with your false scenario. You have zero choice. A burglar gives you no choice and takes all the choice. If he wants to steal a gun or buy one on the black market, no law can stop him because he is already behaving outside the law. The worst that can happen to him is that he could be shot and killed by a citizen trying to protect themselves and their possesions. The worst thing that could happen to a perfectly law abiding citizen is that their loved ones could be killed or mentally scarred for life.

Those are real choices. Now role your eyes and take your pic ......

Here is a genuine statistical answer.

The country with the most Crimminals and with the wealthiest individuals have the highest crime rates. I gaurantee you there will be a correlation !

If you really believe Gun Control works, maybe you should read THIS

And, look carefully at the crime statistics of cities that outlawed guns, Washington DC, Baltimore, New York, London, etc... I've been to all of them, most residents have bars on the doors and windows, cannot go outdoors at night without fear of becoming a crime victim, cannot park their cars in front of their homes because they will be vandalized or stolen.

When I was a youngster and in the U.S. Navy I had the opportunity to visit many nations. I got to see, first hand, homes surrounded by high, stone walls, the tops of which were covered with shards of broken glass embedded in concrete. I saw mansions surrounded by high, chain-link fences topped with razor wire. Essentially, these individuals were imprisoned in their own homes by that nation's criminal element. Guess what. The United States is headed in the same direction. Don't think this is true? Then it's about time you visited one of the downtown areas of a major city nearest you.

Good Luck,

Gary

I don't believe that the solution to crime and violence lies in gun laws, pro or con. What is needed is an attack on the root causes of these problems; poverty, poor education, lack of economic opportunities, weak family structures and lack of suitable role models. It also doesn't help when society (we/us) put such a high premium on having (to have) a cell phone, an Ipod, and Nike sneakers. What's a poor boy from the inner city to do? And while we're speaking in code ("to view some good crime first hand, visit a big city near you") why don't we just burn down all the ghettos and barrios and poof, problem solved. But wait, if we're willing to "ventilate" someone for trying to take our INSURED Tyros, what should be the punishment for the guy that robbed thousands of people, many of whom were elderly, of their entire life savings, sometimes totaling in the millions. But then again, I guess wearing an Armani suit while committing the crime gets you a pass (sort of). Apparently greed and criminal behavior doesn't know it's only supposed to reside in the inner city.

All I'm saying is, shooting one criminal is not going to deter another; never has, never will. I say, let's try to change the conditions that cause people to resort to criminal behavior in the first place. Plus, you won't have a string of dead bodies on your conscience; well thats assuming you have one (let's not forget those good Christian values . BTW, whatever happend to 'Thou shall not kill', did that get ammended? Repealed? Just curious.). JMO.

chas

Spalding, a robber doesn't WANT to kill you. He just wants your stuff. But in America, he HAS to use a gun... (old joke in America, not sure it's funny if you think about the ramifications, though: 'Never take a knife to a gunfight' ) because, just like you, he has to assume you MIGHT have a gun (and the right to use it).

Take all that away, make use of a handgun against a human a death sentence with no appeal, and watch all the criminals start stealing Tazers instead. And, like I said, let the Govt/ GIVE Tazers away in exchange for the guns. It won't change crime rates EXCEPT for murder. Now, if that isn't a sufficient goal to shoot for, pretty unimportant compared to your wallet being stolen or your car, then keep the guns by all means...

Where's the satisfaction in just Tazering a robber, anyway?

Dikki I love debating with you but you are completely nuts ��

1. If I bought a gun it would be for my protection, not necessarily to kill someone, if I wanted to do that I would simply join the army. (Of course I am being flippant , I have great respect for anyone that has the courage to defend their country)

2. A gun is a lethal weapon but it does not have to be used to kill, it can be used as a show of force. You have no idea what the intentions are or what the state of mind of a burglar (or burglars as they rarely work alone) is when they accidentally disturb a resident.

3. If by your logic, a burglar might already assume I have a gun or that if they disturbed me I might put up some resistance why the hell can��t I actually have one as that surely would just level the playing field. That��s the reasoning behind the saying ��never bring a knife to a gunfight��. To level the playing filed. Burglars don��t like level playing fields or they would simply knock on your door and tell you they want your things!! No burglar has anything to fear from me just because I may have a gun. I am not actively seeking out burglars to shoot them! However the burglar IS actively seeking houses to rob which puts me directly at risk as I own a house!! The burglar chooses which house to rob (I don��t choose for a burglar to come to my house ), he chooses whether to be armed or not (I cant ask specifically for the unarmed , wont hurt me kind ) and he has his choice of weapon (I cant ask to be robbed by only the tazer or knife wielding, or the guy that comes unarmed type burglar), and he has the choice as to how or whether he will use the weapon (I cant ask for the drug free just threatening type burglar). It��s only fair that the householder also has a little choice too surely?????

4. In America in certain states and other countries right now, the death penalty already exists. Why is there NO gun or violent crime in those jurisdictions by your logic? The greatest proportion of violent crime is linked to substance abuse whether that is under the influence or the desire to fund the substance abuse. And it is committed by habitually violent people who have a propensity to violence. Let me suggest that criminals generally have little regard for any legal sanctions generally and are not thinking about being caught when they commit their crimes.


This will be my favourite quote from you of all time.

��Spalding, a robber doest WANT to kill you, he just wants your stuff, But in America he HAS to use a gun �K.��

So why do robbers use guns in the UK Dikki ? I mean by your logic they brought a gun to not even a knife fight right? 6 Months ago my friend was robbed in the church car park in Handsworth Birmingham at gun point by a hooded youth and his accomplice. His car was stolen with his lap top and his keyboards and his house keys, wallet, phone and passes to the studios he works with. Did this youth HAVE to use a gun????? Did he get the gun purely to kill �K..?Or did he figure that a gun might come in useful as a show of force to prevent resistance? I reckon some thieves have got onto this genius idea that a gun might actually prevent resistance and potentially violence in most cases.

I think that they are right and I would use the same logic in my home if I owned a gun. If I am wrong then at least I would also have the means to try and protect myself and my family.

You see Dikki a robber may or may not want to kill me (like I said you don��t know their state of mind when they accidentally disturb you ) but I assume he may be prepared to kill me to take my stuff (which is a genuine fear) just as I may be prepared to kill him to protect myself.

A robber does not HAVE to choose to be a robber. He could choose to be a law abiding citizen just like the rest of folk. He has more choice than the choice to rob, steal and potentially kill or be killed.

All I am debating (in a friendly way) is the right for house holders to have some choices too.

Oh and Chas. The correct quote is you should not murder. The translation for the word ��kill�� is actually the word meant for unlawful killing. The Bible does permit lawful killing in certain circumstances like self defence or war.

While daddy is building an arsenal large enough to start WWIII little Johnny/Mary gets abducted by a sexual predator. Daddy just never had the foresight that a cheap whistle could've saved his little one.

------------------
Bo pen nyang.

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 03-30-2010).]

nothing wrong with Daddy having a whistle too but they are really tough to shoot with....!!

i am kidding Taike and i take your point :-)however it does not negate mine nor those of the other posters.

That's why it's my book of choice whenever I need to justify some bulls--t. Ask ten people what any given phrase in the Bible means and you'll get at least eleven different interpretations. That's why it's never wrong. Just pick a cause or point of view and then find a nice biblical passage to cover your a$$. So what if you have to 'tweak' the interpretation a bit. Works for me.

But listen, you've made your point. I will NEVER attempt to burgle YOUR house. I don't want to get beaten to death with a giant Crusifix .



chas

Play fair Chas. You qouted the good book to prove YOUR point. I didnt.

still, you see how much of a deterent a threat of force is.....(i am just playing with you Chas.)

Play fair Chas. You qouted the good book to prove YOUR point. I didnt.

still, you see how much of a deterent a threat of force is.....(i am just playing with you Chas.)

And I with you, Spalding. Actually, although I don't agree with you on this particular point, I am a big admirer or yours re. your work with your youth choir....a little jealous, too, as it seems like a lot of fun. Plus, you can't be all bad, you play the PA1X (my favorite arranger).



chas

Hi Danny
To get back on subject, the consensus is that a good alarm system will be the most cost effective, however before you do, contact your local Police station who will put you in touch with the local crime prevention officer, (It�s a free service) who will have a look round and point out any security issues and how to remedy them. He will also be able to give you advice on the type of alarm to fit if required. (If you go to an Alarm company they will try and sell you the most expensive they can, even if it would be a total overkill for your requirements)
Hope this helps

Bill

I still vote for the big ass German Shepard.

Tom

fine but can you train them to shoot a gun :-) sorry i will leave this discussion now

My alarm system weighs close to 110lbs and is called Rottweiler! That was the best $550 ever spent.

Kinda' reminds me of an old Tom Hanks move "Turner and Hooch." That was a big Rot!

Loved that movie,

Gary

And one bullet will silence that alarm for sure.....

I used to own two block head Rottweilers 170lbs each, $1800.00 pedigrees, "Hercules" & "Rocky" I miss them, it's a fine smart powerful breed but no match for hot lead.

A loud alarm & signal to your precinct is your best bet.

Gary sorry to correct you buddy but Hooch was a "Dogue de Bordeaux", ...and yes a kool looking pup.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogue_de_Bordeaux




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 03-30-2010).]

They do play it AMC occasionally and I still enjoy it too, except that dog in the movie is a French Mastiff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogue_de_Bordeaux

It is reactionaries like Spalding that assure that America will NEVER return to sanity vis a vis gun murders. Simple question, spald... If thieves are using guns in Britain, why is their murder rate FORTY times less than ours?

The reason that the death penalty does not work in America is that it is so painfully obvious that it is simply used as a race penalty. Look at the rates of application of it for identical crimes based on skin color, and you will see why it has no effect over here. Until ALL gun offenders are penalized identically regardless of race or economic status, it remains a bad joke, and no-one is laughing. Except rich white murderers, I suppose!

And OK, I admit that the death penalty is barbaric. But so are the US's murder figures, FAR in excess of any other 'civilized' country (you DO call America a civilized country, don't you? ). To be honest, if use of a handgun was penalized simply by life without parole, and it was applied without any mercy or regard for race or economic status, watch how fast those thieves would start carrying Tazers...!

Make the penalty draconian enough, and 'Never take a gun to a knife fight' might start to be the NEW joke...

yeah! You're right Donny. Either way, he was a big-a$$ed dog.

Gary

Some thoughts:

1) A weapon (any weapon, whatever it is, from a sock full of sand to an M60, is considered a "force multiplier". Then, if you have the proper amount of training for any particular weapon, and the "force" factor is 1,(bare handed human), then the more big ass weapon wins the round. My sock full of sand wins your bare hands, your HK11 wins my 9mm pistol. So the phrase "don't bring a knife to a gunfight" really means "assess the situation correctly, react appropriately, use suitable force, walk away in one piece".

2) There are countries that use the death penalty regularly and also use harsh punishments. Crime continues to exist there. Guys were executed in China after the melamine milk scandal, yet a new case was uncovered after some months. Thieves and murderers continue to exist in the Persian Gulf states, no matter the whipping and severed arms, beheadings, stoning etc. It clearly does not work like that. And no matter if everyone has a taser and the other choice has death as a consequence, many many guys would opt for the bigger "force multiplier" because criminals run an enterpise and want faster results and faster ROI and are not usually found to excel in common sense.

3) The bible has it all. You think of something, chances are it is in there. That is why people love it. The best tale ever told. Having faith is good though.

4) If you look closely, you will find that the Secret Service does not look forward to win a fight when confronted with enemies of POTUS. Ok, they have that kind of training, but their main aim is to make sure nobody is even thinking of doing something. That is why when your president wants to hop to California to see the Terminator in person, an advance party goes there a week before, coordinates everything, keeps tabs on local nutheads, takes them to the movies to keep them close at all times (actually read that in a newspaper article) and only then the Air force One touches down in LAX or wherever. In summary, they do whatever they can to DETER bad guys, not to kill them. They put alarms, and make sure EVERYONE knows it.

5) Dogs are fine deterrents, but to quote a line I read... "No one runs faster than Mr Heckler & Koch" or "Mr Nine millimeter". And they also can be defeated by a plateful of brake fluid. Some ancient civilization used ducks I think. They are food to everything that moves, so naturally the make a terrible fuss when they hear something.

6) As long as you own a weapon, you have to be prepared to use it. They are not for show. If you don't use it, the assailant will use your weapon or his against you, never mind his original intentions. A gun may act as a detterent, but remember it may also "up the ante". I want easy money, I am already past lawfulness... Instead of money you show me a 9mm, you get the full treatment of my AK-47. Case closed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Diki:
[B]It is reactionaries like Spalding that assure that America will NEVER return to sanity vis a vis gun murders. Simple question, spald... If thieves are using guns in Britain, why is their murder rate FORTY times less than ours?'

This is a foolish question dikki , almost child like. You really ought to think more about the factors that influence gun crime and murder rates generally more seriously.

You are actually asking a complex question to do with the mentality , culture , life styles, life expectancies, and disparities of wealth and opportunity from country to country. You cant be seriously suggesting the ONLY reason America has a higher murder rate higher than the UK is because some US home owners might actually own and potentially use a gun in self defense ?????

Why then does switzerland or israel have lower murder rates than the UK and yet more liberal gun laws ?

I am honest enough not to pretend to know. Do you know dikki ?

What you might want to consider is the following :

1. Are all murders carried out by theives in the US ?
2. are all murders carried out through gun use ?
3. Who are the most common victims of murder by a gun ? (you will find it is people who already have a crimminal record)
4. What proportion of murders were carried out by legally owned licensed guns ?

There is tons of research on this subject.
I could go on but i will not. But let me give an honest answer to your question , i dont know why america's murder rate is higher than the UK and i am in good company with a host of academics trying to understand this very same problem. Are you suggesting that you do ???

I'm not pretending that there is NO solution to it other than to continue down the same descending scale of violence, if that's what you mean.

Technology continually upgrades these 'force multipliers' until they basically have no meaning. Keep an Uzi at the house, and so the thief HAS to bring an AK-47? Keep an AK-47 at the house, and the thief has to bring a rocket propelled grenade? Keep a rocket propelled grenade at the house, and the thief has to bring a tank?

Where does it stop..?

Unfortunately, spalding, in the eyes of pretty much the rest of the civilized world, it is YOUR viewpoint that is the childish one, not mine. American media is obsessed with violence, with skewing news coverage to emphasize the crime that, in all honesty, doesn't represent anywhere NEAR the need for the response it gets. I know Michael Moore shoots himself in the foot a lot (figuratively... I'm sure the NRA would prefer it to be for real ) basically playing the same 'hype the message' game the American public is so used to these days, but Bowling for Columbine ought to be required watching, simply to demonstrate some of the nastier, dirtier, more shameful reasons Americans have allowed themselves to gaily trip down this path to Armageddon. Race hatred lies at the root of MANY of America's supposedly unsolvable problems. Gun violence, drug enforcement, urban sprawl and 'White flight', inequalities in education and opportunity... At least Obama's election has drug our dirty laundry out in the open again for a little while. Not that anyone's calling for the bleach

But you're right. Things are SO good, why should anyone try to make them better? I mean, it's not like we even CARE that gun murders are forty times less likely in the nation we cast off as oppressive all those years ago, is it?

That's an oppression I could live with... literally!

I never said your view was childish Dikki. I respect your view and anyone elses . I said that your question was child like because the question completely ignores all the other factors that affect gun murder rates and crime generally and your subsequent post barely touches them in the context of murder by guns. I also never said that there was no solution to the problem what ever you percieve that problem to be. You seem to think that there is only one solution. There are many potential solutions.

I gave examples of countries that have a much more relaxed attitude to guns , Sweden and Israel just as an example and there are a host of other 'civilised' (however you define that ) countries who have more relaxed gun laws.
Do they all have exactly the same problem as america ? Finland has a 30% gun ownership of its population and although they have a higher proportion (about double) of gun related homicide rates than the UK (including self defence killings and crimminals shot by the police) ) they have only a slightly higher rate of homicides ( about 1% difference ) in total when all deaths by homicide are taken into account .

Clearly licensed and lawful gun ownership is not the significant factor that you are trying to make it out to be.

Your example of escalating weapons just because home owners also might arm themselves is again child like and is not even worthy of debate.

And the country that was cast off becuase of their oppressive regime was repelled with guess what .....firearms. Had they not done so they would still no doubt be servants of the British empire. As an ex pat i understand why that may not be an issue for you but i think your american neighbours might have a different point of view.



[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 03-30-2010).]

I think that the above, is very weak as an example.... It is just a mentality

French people revelled, guns were used, but their descendants are not walking around packing heat. Same here, the Greeks revelled against the Ottoman empire in 1821, lots and lots of guns and swords were used, yet we are not permitted to own guns.

When you finish watching, you turn off the TV. You finished eating, you pick up the plates. you finished with the enemy, time to hang up your arms. And don't tell me you are keeping them in case Brits want coming west again.... Diki is one of their agents, came here to prepare the invasion.

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 03-31-2010).]

They should have sent Tony. We would've surrendered already .

chas

I was advised to buy this paint.. http://www.insight-security.com/per-paint.htm
But then to be told by the Police, that if a burglar climbs over my wall and the paint marks his/her clothes they can sue me.

Not yet chas, but THEY are working on it ... THEY got it out of the public schools didn't they?!?!? ...

And I am in total agreement that we need to change the environment ... Sometimes a kid will get 'lucky' and get through a bad environment in good shape, but far to often that is not going to happen ...
My daughter began her Social Work career working in an outreach program ... she would come home some nights absolutely LIVID because a judge felt a child was better left with his/her 'parents' - even if the parents were strung out druggies who were abusing the kids in ways we would not begin to comprehend ...
I just pray that SOMEHOW we find the answers and people accept them ...
t.
PS chas, I also agree with what you were saying about 'society' putting the burden of "need" on kids when it comes to cell phones, iPODS and the rest ... and IMO it starts with the clothes, and some public schools here in RI are requiring school uniforms which I believe is a step in the right direction ... the kids have certain options on what to wear, but generally it's khaki or blue pants or skirts with a white or blue shirt or blouse ... eliminates all the peer pressure about looking as 'cool' as the next kid ...
And I firmly believe that after a while, as soon as those kids put on their 'school clothes', they will get into a learning mindset ...
t.

If the 'Greatest Generation' truly WAS the greatest, then we should make an effort to go back to those values, especially in education and TV licensing and censorship.

Strict dress codes at school. Strict discipline. No more mollycoddling young hooligans. Give the teacher back the authority and disciplinary powers they used to have over the youngsters that grew up to be the 'Greatest Generation'...

And no more emphasis on TV that glorifies gutter values and nothing but materialism. You want to point a finger at the ONE thing that has probably more influence on kids today, look at TV from today, and from the 50's and 60's. Kids are like sponges. They ape what they see. Show them ill mannered, unruly, hyper-sexed materialistic kids (and adults!) on TV, and that's what you'll get in real life. Show them violence, show them 'reality' TV where every gutter value is glorified, let them play violent video games (that the Armed Forces use to desensitize their troops to violence and elicit instant fighting reflexes) and up the content to ad ratio to something over three times as much as the sixties, cut back Public TV funding, and is it any wonder we are where we are today?

Deregulation... let the market find its' own level... Yeah right!

The market sure HAS found its' level, hasn't it..?

'We the People' OWN the airwaves in this country. It is time to take them back from the greedy corporations willing to sell this generation of kids into materialistic slavery.

Diki, I don't know if I've ever agreed with you more ...
t.

He's right once in awhile .

chas

I also agree completely. Nobody of my generation got hurt by one or two slaps from their teacher, everyone my age now laughs when remembering school slappings with "oh yes I got slapped a lot but I was a right bastard to boot", yet they shiver at the mere thought of a teacher bollocking their kid, let alone slapping.

Are you guys kidding me???
The criminals ALL have any gun they want...they don'e get them at the local gun store!

The constitution of the United States gives us the right to have guns for hunting and protection.

There are some here (polititions) that would like to put our constitution in the shredder! Obama and his gang! It gets in the way of there socialist agenda. The people of this country will not allow him and his thugs from Illinois (and elsewhere)to do that!

If I am home, a criminal breaks into my house, he poses a treat to me and my family...he gets one warning to get on the floor and wait for the police...if he does not he will be shot and killed by me. 12 year olds in this country can be hard criminals and kill people (not uncommon). So age does not matter...he better get on the floor immediately and drop any weapon he has. If he comes at me with any weapon or just personally, he will be shot dead.

Are you guys telling me if he (the one we are talking about here) in your country comes into your house you can do nothing legally?

By the way, any cop I have talked to says be sure and kill him, so they or me does not have to deal with him in court.

If any of you live in a country where there is not 'any' of those guys...great, if I moved there I would not need any guns in my house.

Lee S.

Lee, you forgot the "quotation" marks. I'm sure Rush, Glenn, and Sarah, would like credit for their rhetoric. And oh yeah, that Socialist Obama, the guy responsible for all the gun violence, the one who advocates showing up at presidential town hall meetings with an AK47, yeah, you're right, the man must be stopped, before he turns us into a lawless, gun-toting society.....oh wait, we already are. Ahhh, must've been ol' George W.



chas

BTW, you don't appoint yourself president. Apparently, a majority of the American people put him there. Guess they didn't realize he was a hard line Socialist when they were in the voting booth. Ehhh, mistakes happen.

When I was 5 years old, in preschool, my dad was on alert at Ladd AFB in Fairbanks, Alaska. I was home in our little isolated house in the country with my mom, who was 8 months pregnant and confined to the bed, and my little three year old brother.

I was trying to cook something for my brother, when I saw something at the window. It was a crazy looking Eskimo. I was scared to death, but determined to protect my family. I got out the little Savage 22/.410 over and under my dad gave me a year or so later (still have it). I loaded both barrels; top with a 22 cal. and the bottom with # 8 shot (was aware the I wanted to use bird shot, instead of #6 (rabbit) to minimize the injury).

The guy kept looking through the window and hiding from about 7:00 PM (it was winter-deep snow, probably below zero outside and already dark) until about 2:00 AM. He then broke the glass and started crawling in the window. There had been multiple break-ins in the area, with injuries over the last several months, including several rapes. We later found out this was the guy!

I shot him in the left kneecap with the shotgun. When he got up, I shot him in the right kneecap with the shotgun. If he had gotten up, I was going to shoot him with both barrels. I kept the gun on him until daylight, and then waved down a truck from the door, asking them to get Gus, our neighbor.

Fast forward to last year. I had a Taurus Judge (five .410 rounds of buckshot) in the drawer. A guy broke in, rushed me, and I chose a small wooden club instead of the gun. I hurt the guy, but also sustained what very well may be permanent damage to my left arm and hand.

Almost 60 years later: What I learned:

* I regret shooting the guy in Alaska, but think I had no choice. I was protecting my mom and brother.

* Don't regret not shooting the guy at my warehouse (there was no-one else in danger, I was the only one there), but got sued in the process.

* The good: the guy's in jail (repeat offender). Do regret hurting the guy with the club as badly as I did. Frankly, I was scared and on an adrenalin rush. If I hadn't defended myself, there may have been more damage from the cuts. Could have been killed. Or, more realistically, he would have gotten what he wanted and left me alone. I'll never know...

* Regret getting hurt....may be a career ender.

* If you choose to have a gun or other weapon, be prepared to use it.

Be careful, everybody!


Russ



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 04-01-2010).]

Russ, you know how I felt about what happened to you and the resultant (possibly permanent) injury that you suffered. Heck, even I wanted to shoot the guy. You showed remarkable restraint given the options you had and I applaud your decision (though it would be hard to condemn you had you chosen the other option). In the end, given the type of person you are and your long history of helping those needing help, I think you would still choose to endure your injury rather than having this kid's death on your conscience. That's what seperates us from the animals that try to harm us. Those who advocate shooting first and asking questions later, obviously don't have the same regard for human life as you do. One more reason I feel proud to be your friend.

chas

1) Can you operate a weapon under extreme stress? (supposedly extreme stress happens when someone is heard in the house at night)

2) Yes, in most of Europe, if you manage to break the intruder's bones, you will be charged. There is one case that I know, here in Greece, where someone used a hunting rifle to shoot a burglar inside their home and got away free, after a lengthy trial. But this was in a rural area, where burglaries were very common, the guy was an old man, and all his villages' people were everyday outside the court, demonstrating. It doesn't happen. No "castle doctrine" here.

My TV is on in the other room and the newscaster just said "No robberies were commited today" in a triumphant voice.

Shooting to kill was not the only option you had if you chose to use the gun....

I am really sorry about your injury and the messed up legal system that allows crimminals in the act of committing their crime to be offered the right to sue you for reacting to their illegal activities.

Trident,
YES, I can operate a 12 gauge shotgun under extreme stress...and the acuracy really does not have to be that good.

At close range a shotgun works very nicely.
Lee S.

'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

Somebody tell me what a shotgun in your house has got to do with a 'Well regulated Militia'..?

This is happening right now in my local area.
There is an investigation into to the facts of an out of town school teacher being shot over the weekend while "mistakenly" entering the wrong house while visiting friend's baby shower party.
http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/04/01/1005747/ny-teacher-goes-into-strangers.html

Did the person shooying him ask him to stop, get on the floor and show identification? You don't just shoot someone for being in the house!

There is and will always be crazy people that should not have a gun, or even a screwdriver for that matter.

Because of a few. Do not take my gun away.

Lee S.

yes he did tell the teacher repeatedly to leave and warned him that he had a gun . It was 1.00am in the morning when it happened. There isnt much more info than that. The autopsy will be able to tell if the teacher was high on drugs or alcohol or if there was something wrong with him. No one knows why he was trying to get into apparently a strangers house.

From the article:
"David Park was killed around 1 a.m. Sunday in the suburb of Amherst, near where he was attending a party for a pregnant friend.

Thomas Burton, the homeowner's attorney, says his client repeatedly told Park to leave and told him he had a gun. When Park didn't leave, the homeowner shot him."

I am not judging right or wrong here, nor will I feed the 'gun /no gun' debate, but there are lots of unanswered questions to this situation ... like "How does someone just 'walk into' someone else's home"???

t.

The attorney stated that his client warned the victim repeatedly. Like he would claim otherwise.

As I said "I am not judging..."
t.