The only new keyboard products shown at NAMM this year are not arranger keyboards. Some new HP pianos ranging from $3,000.00 retail to $5,900 retail, a new VR700 $2,379.00 retail stage keyboard and that's it! Sorry for the bad news for those expecting to see a new high end (or any range) arranger.


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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

so i guess Roland ended their arranger line with the G-70 & E-80

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[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 01-15-2010).]

Can someone translate into English what this Utube video is talking about.
George Kaye

I have to brush up on my italian but it seems to be some labor dispute and layoffs.

They are saying all the arranger musicians of SZ were really expecting a high end replacement for the G70.............but this crazy labor dispute has put production on hold indefinitely

Before you all start speculating about Roland going bankrupt: This news story is about the layoff of 50 of the 210 workers at Roland Europe. Roland is moving part of its production to China, and thus out of Italy.

Just Google a little, find some Italian newspapers, use Google translation and there you have it.

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- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

that's great

we're gonna get some Kick @ss chinese styles

I wasn't speculating that Roland wasn't going out of business. I listened to video and my understanding was were some sort of labor dispute and 40-50 layoffs. Portuguese isn't that far off from italian, you can pick up most of the words.

mc,

achas que o quatro ponto zero vai fazer-te comprar o AUDYA?

I wonder if that may affect quality of Roland? Are there any other Rolands made in china?

.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 01-14-2010).]

In the world economy as it is, was anyone REALLY expecting anything new from a Roland TOTL arranger? I know I wasn't...

Roland's woes with moving production reliably to China have been common (or maybe not so common!) knowledge for a couple of years.

All in all, new products from ANY keyboard division are way down this year, many of the major players don't even USE NAMM any more, the internet being just as effective for information dissemination these days. Most of my friends in the business say privately that NAMM is of little use any more, they just go for the junket, most of them already know about new products before they go... They certainly know about it the day it is announced no matter WHERE they are.

Look, this is Economics 101. World recession, diminishing interest in a product line (for all we want to ignore it, arranger sales other than at the 'toy' end of the spectrum are plummeting), complete domination of WS and software sales, what were we expecting?

It's time to find out for ourselves whether we NEED a new arranger, or simple WANT a new arranger...

maybe the reason Ketron is not @ NAMM this year is because they are using these "funds" to better the AUDYA, like new board/chip with 2GB Ram, and TONS of new modern breakthrough sounds

or they are creating our AUDYA module, or AUDYA2 keyboard

Warning! Warning! Warning!

Gratuitous Audya reference alert!

Take cover!

Hey Lee... You even GOT one, yet?

Diki !!! That was good ....I love your humor. :-)

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createsongstyles.com
fakesheets.com

I was hoping for a new high-end Arranger from Roland even though I thought it probably wouldn't happen at this NAMM show. The global economy is still wrecking havoc and I suppose that has had something to do with not only Roland's meager offerings at winter NAMM '10 but also Yamaha and Korg's too. Actually Roland didn't do too bad as they did release several new products. The new VP-7 vocal processor module looks interesting for keyboardists wanting a vocalizer as well as the new 76 key V-Combo VR-700 B3 Organ Clone (with Piano and other voices included). One thing missing from the VR-700 is possibly still no way to route separate outputs simultaneously for Organ and e.g. Piano sound, leaving it unchanged from its older sibling the VR-760 it looks like.

A real letdown was the fact the RD700GX Stage Piano (released at the same time as the Fantom G) just got an expansion sound upgrade taken from Roland's V-Piano technology from what I understand, whilst the Fantom G received nada, zip, zilch, goose egg i.e. nothing at all.

Disappointing to say the least, and it has given me more incentive and a wake up call to seriously consider dumping my Fantom G7 for a new "76 key" high-end arranger somewhere down the line. Whether that's this year, next year, or the year after, only Yamaha, Korg, and/or Roland know for sure. Oh yeah, maybe an Audya II could be in the mix perhaps too. Although, hopefully at a much more reasonable price point.

All the best,
Mike

Thanks for the report, George.

Beakybird

Hi George,
Really disappointing news regarding Roland.
I had hoped to see a new top of range board from them. In the circumstances, I think it's madness to cease production /sales of the E80 (and G70) when they have nothing in place to offer us. I would still be willing to purchase an E80 new but there are none to be found.

Maybe Casio will be persuaded to have a go - their MZ-2000 was a very respectable offering at that time and should have been updated/developed over time.

Many thanks for keeping us so well informed anyway - we certainly can't rely on the manufacturers to let us know what's happening so your news is always appreciated.
Best wshes,
Tony

Tell us about all the new arrangers from Ketron, Korg and Yamaha, then.

Ketron was not at NAMM
so nothing new from them
was hoping for my AUDYA-M

I'm going to NAMM today, Friday so I will report back Friday Night or Saturday morning.
I already know that there are only two new arrangers coming in July from Yamaha. A replacement for the YDG635 called the 640 and a replacement for the PSRE413. I have already seen pictures and don't expect much change.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

I will sell you an E80 in like-new condition, but I'm afraid I can't charge you full price.
DonM

Yeah, Tony... why the fixation with new? An E80 is not a cheap PSR. Built like a tank (weighs like one too! ), and generally cared for obsessively by their owners, you can find these for under half what a new one would have cost you when it was released (not when they were blowing out the old stock!).

The OS updates are free, so you are still getting the latest production version, no matter WHAT is in the machine when you buy it.

I just bought a backup used G70 that looked like it had come off the showroom floor. I couldn't be happier with it. Give up on new, and get something that LOOKS like new, sounds like new, plays like new, but half price.

Don's sounds perfect...!

What does it cost to ship a half-ton keyboard to the UK?

chas

Sorry... forgot where Tony was from. So Don's is out. Bet you there are a few E80's in Jolly Old England though Mind you, shipping and tax STILL don't add up to what a new one would probably cost.

Just be patient, and pounce when the time is right.

Thanks for the offer Don - a bit too far away though.

Looks as though it's got to be a used model or nothing then. The reason I prefer new, Diki, is if Roland do a Technics and leave me with the last board in the line, it has to last as long as possible - more chance of that with a new one which has had no rough treatment. Yes, Some guys do mistreat keyboards (and kids too) although you'ld think they wouldn't.
In the meantime - WAKE UP ROLAND! - we're waiting! Also waiting for Ketron to replace the steam age Floppy Disk on the SD3 with a USB port so that I can retire my MS40.
Tony

Roland would probably be wide awake and working feverishly on a new TOTL arranger IF the E80/60/50/G70 had sold really well. But it seems that so many are late to the party, or listened to other peoples' negative opinions rather than their own ears when they WERE available, and what is Roland's incentive to make another one?

People seems, in the majority, happy with what Yamaha have done, making bland mostly low end (or mid end) models, but with the Mega voice stuff and SA2 stuff, which is all fairly proprietary and VERY mature. Yamaha been making Mega for what, eight to ten years or so, SA for five or more? - it's going to take any manufacturer close to that long just to catch up. Korg's DNC is a good example - got the basic OS, but REALLY short on samples made especially for it...

Let's face it, were it not for the PSR's, Yamaha would NEVER go out on a limb and have JUST the Tyros line. Although there is feature trickle down, I would imagine the sales of the PSR line is what really keeps the division afloat. Ian might know, but I bet PSR910's outsell Tyros's at least 20-1.

Roland are doing the right thing, IMO. If they can't recapture the low-mid end of the market, if they can't come out with anything that gives an S910 a good run for its' money, what are they going to do with another TOTL model but lose money again..? If they can make something like the Prelude but add in the Mega stuff and some kind of proto-DNC/SA technology, maybe revisit some of the great features they dropped (I swear, in the last decade, Roland have DROPPED more great Roland only features than they added!), and basically make something that has the S910's good features and none of its' bad, THEN it might be time to bring out another G-series or TOTL E-series.

But I KNOW how you all will react if they bring out something like the G70, but with some half-baked SA stuff (like that awful Atelier stuff) and a half-cocked version of Mega voice technology... A great big yawn. Just as you all did for the G70

G70's and E80's are built like tanks, even my five year old daily gigged on the beach one is still close to pristine, my backup one is showroom. These aren't PSR's. I know few people that bang down $3500-4500 for a TOTL arranger then abuse the heck out of it! They buy the kids a PSR, and keep them off the E80

If Roland HAVE pulled a Technics with their TOTL, at least they went out on a note that I can play for a VERY, very long time. A real cyclical breather! Just bite the bullet, Tony, and get good pictures and a return policy on a used E80/G70, and don't worry too much. I'm really not kidding when I say they are built like tanks!

good post DIKI,
I am keeping my E 80. Jann can bury it with me and I will play it instead of a harp
Bebop

Thanks for the advice Diki - I probably will decide to "bite the bullet" as you say.
It is quite a disappointment after that nicely expectant state when one thinks a new board is on it's way but, as I came up with this expectation simply on my guessing Roland's intention when they dropped the E80, it's my own fault.
Such a shame though - some write-ups of range bottom boards such as the Prelude, show what Roland could still achieve but, as you say, they have got to sell. Never thought the industry would finish up in this parlous state when we once took the regular introduction of new boards from so many different manufacturers for granted.
Tony

I've often compared arrangers to 'home organs'. Nobody EVER thought that they would end up as a rare niche product either, back in their heyday. But technology moves on, music tastes move on, players' needs move on, and then the manufacturers move on.

When the capabilities of some of the TOTL arrangers FAR exceed the needs of probably 90% of their users, you get to a saturation point. Other than the die-hard few here at SZ (and we don't represent even a TINY fraction of the entire arranger buying public), few TOTL arranger buyers are EVER going to need another arranger...

So what happens to TOTL sales, now? Same thing that happened to home organs, IMO. Gradually, all the major players left the arena or downsized the division, while they moved on to what WAS selling profitably...

I think we are actually seeing what is 'next' on the horizon, but no company can get it right with current technology. The audio loop stuff from Ketron IS groundbreaking, but it really needs computer horsepower a bit beyond (maybe four-five years on) to be able to do all that it needs. And ditto with VSTi integration. That needs horsepower so overpowering that you never have to even THINK about the CPU's capabilities, along with a front end that is designed to make their use as easy as a closed arranger.

And they all need to be at a price point that is LESS than current TOTL's, not 25%+ MORE!

Home organ users got older, grayer, and tighter with their retirement dollar. And, other than maybe a few vocal segments here at SZ, I think the same thing is happening to arranger players. I'm probably one of the more forward looking arranger users, and even I could live pretty contentedly with what I have, should the need arise!

Cherish those current models, everyone... You never know when the ride will stop (or at least, slow down under our expectations). Technics players, YOU know what I'm talking about, don't you?

I'm pretty sure we'll see new TOTL and MOTL arrangers from Korg, and Yamaha, and quite possibly Casio(mid-range at least), so it is mainly Roland's lack of new technology to put in their high-end arrangers that's keeping them out of that segment.

Another re-iteration of the E-80 or G-70 won't sell any better than the originals...even the Prelude and GW-8 are having a tough time competing with Yamaha and Casio for entry/mid level instruments, a market segment the latter two have dominated for quite some time.

A PSR-S710 has far more features than a Prelude, for very little more money.

Ian

We saw the survivors of the home organ attrition bring out new product, Ian, as the market slowly collapsed, but slower and gradually pricier as the transition to synths and then WS's progressed. Sure, at the beginning, things didn't look THAT bad. First one manufacturer, then another got out of the business, or stopped making TOTL's (I WAS commenting about the TOTL sector, primarily, Ian... the low end will always survive because of the 'toy' end of the scale), but others continued, those with the 'edge', those with the best sales teams, etc..

But gradually, even they withered until the home organ market is where it is now. And NO-ONE, back in say the mid sixties to early seventies ever thought they would be here.

I just see a fair degree of correlation, for almost the same reasons. Once a product is primarily used by the elderly, what is left but attrition? Once a product ignores current musical trends, what is left but attrition? Once the cost of a product rises, rather than falls due to sales volume, what is left other than attrition?

The low and maybe mid end will keep going, and who knows? Roland may find something new that puts them back where they were, but at the high end, I see little but stagnation and attrition. First Technics, now (apparently) Roland and Wersi (who know more about the death of the home organ than any of us!), who's next? Ketron? Then Korg, and maybe finally Yamaha?

There wasn't a Wurlitzer salesman in the sixties and seventies that didn't think like you... How could this POSSIBLY ever end?

Most of Tyros buyers are in their 50's, with a fair amount in their 60's and over...they have the time and the money for higher end arrangers, and they are the ones who tend to be on the forums, and who are the most vocal.

Most of my S910 users tend to be younger, and more than a few also play guitar or another instrument.

I have to keep track of these things, as it helps me gear my clinics a certain way.

The biggest problem we all have, is competition from other kinds of media.

Maybe the arrangers as we know them will die out and be replaced with some other kind of keyboard instrument, just like the organ was replaced by the portable keyboard.

I hope Roland get back into it, as competition benefits us users, and it's nice to see how far these instruments can be developed.

I do know the Prelude and GW-8 are off to a very slow start, according to what I've been hearing in the stores...and, I do know the PSR-S910 is selling very well, at least in my district...the Tyros3 is still doing pretty good too, but a bit slower since the introduction of the S910.

I still think Casio will be the one to watch this year.


Ian

Today's medium priced arrangers blow away the totl arrangers from must a few years ago.
I could get by very nicely with a PSR 900, Midjay, or Roland E50 for the rest of my career (MAYBE 10 years, probably less). But I don't want to. I NEED new STUFF!
I don't know anyone, even musicians (maybe especially musicians) under the age of 50 that even knows what an arranger is, except a few on this forum.
DonM

I think the GW-8 and Preludes both need a style editing update, to be honest. Yes, you can get them sounding VERY punchy, but still even and smooth, if you edit the styles, but OOTB, I just think they sound a little rough. I have felt for quite a while that whoever was responsible for making the soundsets and styles for Roland arrangers has long left the company. And whatever is coming out now just sounds rushed and poorly beta or market tested. It's not that the arrangers themselves are intrinsically bad, but they do need editing to sound their best, and some of the features that help them stand out don't arrive until OS2, by which time, most people have already made their minds up.

If the GW-8 shipped from the start with OS2, and if sufficient attention had been payed to making the ROM style balances better, who knows where they would be now?

But Roland always seem a little too late to the party, these days.

BTW, Ian... "Most of Tyros buyers are in their 50's, with a fair amount in their 60's and over..." means in ten years, most will be over sixty, with a fair number in their seventies, and ten years ago, most were in their forties with a fair number in their fifties. Now, I'm pretty sure you are starting to feel what the difference in needs and attitudes and spending habits forty year olds and sixty year olds have

I'm just saying... How many TOTL organs are sold each year compared to 1970? A tiny fraction. How are arrangers going to fare any differently, if they don't completely change into something younger players (in the majority) want to play? There are still kids in their teens playing home organs too, you know. Just not very many! An industry can't survive on a few diehard fanatics.

Arranger buyers will always be the older bunch...there's lots of new buyers getting older...the companies adjust for that by adding new styles and features.

The organs were phased out because they were seriously outclassed by portable keyboards. I was teaching Electone at the time the new PS series came out....I was right in the middle of the changes.

In only a few years, they took over, and when Roland came out with the E-series, everything went crazy.

My average Tyros buyer is 55...I keep track; it's part of my job.

I agree with DonM in that there is little need to use a TOTL arranger anymore...the mid-line models have everything you need, and this way, it doesn't cost all that much to remain current with the latest technology.

The mid-range is where the profits are, and the Prelude and GW-8 need a few more features to get there, and be competitive...maybe they can add much with the OS...maybe not.


Ian

Youngsters are into downloaded music these days, and arranger manufactures are adapting by providing MP3 players/recorders on their boards.
Another thing is video, which is also all the rage, and some arranger manufactures are also staring to incorporate this.
Roland is probably the most advanced today, as they have developed VIMA which has everything the youngsters want, combined with a musical instrument; all they need to do now is bring out more entry level models that youngsters can afford.
As to a Roland arranger, then when the market improves I am sure we will see one, however it will probably be the last (Or last but one) before they disappear to be replaced by VIMA.
New Roland sound engines will also most likely start to be based around their sound modelling technology.
The above is OMO of course and could be wrong, so we will just have to wait and see what the future brings

Bill

Since when has ANY arranger been "current with the latest technology"? I'm not including Mediastation as I don't consider them to be mass marketed. Most arrangers, BOTL, MOTL, OR TOTL, are at least 4-5 years behind their state-of-the-art computer counterparts. Computer hardware can advance without waiting for the software to catch up, arrangers can't.

chas

I should have re-phrased that Chas...I meant that if you had a mid-priced, mid-line arranger, it would be easier for a person to change, or trade up every three years or so, and therefore get the newest sound and style engines, or improved screens, user interface, and other features that trickle down from the TOTL models.

In fact, many new things for arranger, were introduced on the PSR mid range for the last several years...USB to device was on the PSR-3000 before the tyros got it, and Audio to USB device came out on the PSR-S900,,,the S910 has an MP3 player, that is not on the T3, but will surely be on the Tyros4.

Arrangers don't have to be on the same cutting edge as computers, but they usually aren't far behind.

BTW...I played the new Nord C2....pretty impressive...the Leslie sim is one of the very best...I used it on a little jam session we had at one of the stores after hours....what a hoot it was.

If they could put a PSR-S910 arranger engine in it, it would be my next board for sure.

Ian

I doubt it, Ian. Soon enough the generation that grew up on WS's and synths will be the older bunch, and they sure as hell won't be buying arrangers. Not unless the manufacturers wake up and cross pollinate the lines, anyway.

Something has got to change, it seems all too apparent, anyway. Are you trying to tell me that arranger sales are as good as they were ten years ago?

There came a point in the history of home organs that they got too expensive for most people, due to volume drop (more you make, the cheaper you can sell 'em!), arrangers took over for the 'home organ' crowd, and WS's and synths devastated the pro sales. All that is left is a pittance of what the industry used to be. And yes, the TOTL suffered first, but the rest followed after.

But I believe that arrangers won't last forever. It's becoming obvious that the keyboard manufacturers are falling over themselves trying to NOT bring modern WS technology to arrangers, to NOT bring modern styles and synth capabilities to arrangers, and seem happy to just pander to the diminishing numbers that DO want a quality arranger. All that is left is the low end, and the toy gift ones. They'll probably never go away completely, but as soon as the WS generation gets a bit older, you can bet arranger sales at the high end will plummet (I bet they already are).

Unless someone reinvigorate what playing an arranger is all about (Ketron are trying, bless them, but it seems technology needs to gain a step or two), they will be no relevant than a home organ. You can't play 80's music on a home organ and you can't play 21st c. music on an arranger. Not unless they change drastically, anyway...

The TOTL arranger buyer is generally older (over 40 at least), and has the time and the money to afford a hobby like arranger playing.

It will always be that way for TOTL and to a lesser extent, MOTL.

And, the manufacturers (at least the ones that still make the TOTL/MOTL) are changing...incrementally, but changing just enough to keep up with the new crop of TOTL/MOTL buyers.

You are considering the arranger as a tool...most buyers treat it as a hobby and it's a luxury item for them.

I'm pretty sure I'm selling more arrangers than several years ago, but perhaps all the clinics and demos are helping...people will buy if they know there will be a follow-up, and also, you have to present the arranger properly; most salespeople don't know how to sell an arranger, so it's up to the manufacturer to present their products in the best light...hence the clinician/demonstrator.

By the time the next generation will be in the position to buy a TOTL arranger, the product will have evolved to meet their wants....that's also the value of incremental changes.

You like major changes before you buy...you represent a tiny portion of the arranger buying public...remember, it's a home product first, and a tool for some of us, second...a far second at that.

I think arrangers will continue to be made for some time...the entry level ones are still geared for the target buyer I mentioned above; just the older buyer with less to spend...young people don't buy arrangers, and most likely, never will...they aren't cool. When they get older, cool won't matter as much.

Arrangers don't have to be cool...they just need to change incrementally to suit the target buyer, and so far, they've been doing just fine.

Think of this. You were in your 40's (or older) before you started using an arranger...that's the target market.


Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-19-2010).]

The only thing that is keeping top model "arranger workstations" from being on top of the sale charts....is education..

I know first hand...the vast majority of "pro" players..do not have a clue the value a TOP of the line arranger board..can be for them...Some folks are just snobs (totally their loss)..others have misconceptions about today's arrangers...and the vast majority, don't realize they exist..

We are talking about a retail industry..that sales people in large retail music stores...know nothing about arranger keyboards..so how are the working "pros" going to be educated..

It always amazes me....when I see talented "pros" that struggle to make music with "workstations, or pianos"..and are clueless how benefiting a top model "arranger" could improve the caliber of their performance...I am not even talking about full "Style " play..I am talking about the convenience, and choices that a top arranger allows a player..

I posted an example the other day...saying I was going to set of multiple keyboards on the job...like the "good old days"...and true the result could be obtained ..easily by a single top arranger...

I have seen countless times at our Musicians club here in the Philadelphia area..where some members try to show the great benefits of arrangers, or harmonizers, or new designed PA's.....Most Pros, are just comfortable in their uneducated world...and this problem is the lack of sales we see now...

The reason I keep mentioning top models..I believe the quality of top models, helps lower the concessions that most pros would miss on lessor models..like quality built, better keybeds and key bed range...and less short cuts to get around on the board..

Not very often I agree with you Fran, but you're right. My PSR-S910 takes the place of several "pro" keyboards, drum machine, bass pedals, sequencers, four effects processors...at one time, I was surrounded by gear; now all I need is a Yamaha PSR-S910, a 25 lb arranger, that easily rivals any TOTL made today.

I, for one, do do not miss the maintenance, the need to always own a van or truck, the multiple trips back and forth to the latter, as well as the reliability issues of older gear that I never have to deal with with my arranger.

I still think a TOTL/MOTL arranger is the best kind of instrument for my gigs, and especially so with instruments like the Tyros4 or S910, that easily sound as good or better than any workstation or synth/piano/organ of yesterday or today.

Ian

I've got a 15 year old Alesis drum machine that completely blows away the S910 for punch and impact, live. The trouble is, most of these arrangers are designed for hobbyists, sitting at home in their living room, noodling away with next to no skill or experience (sorry, all of you that DON'T fit that, but it's true, IMO), and most of them don't have a CLUE what is needed to impress a pro.

Pro's come from LIVE MUSIC backgrounds, and want something that approximates that experience for them and their audiences. Although today's MOTL and BOTL arrangers, especially the market leaders, are marvels of integration, most of them have a LONG way to go before they even sound as good as stuff from the eighties and nineties that was DESIGNED for pros... not hobbyists.

BTW, I remember from my home organ sales days, those things were bought and held on to for a VERY long time. Nobody that just took playing the organ as a hobby traded around every couple of years or so. They bought them like they bought pianos. A once in a lifetime purchase. I have a suspicion that many of today's hobbyists that bang down $3500-4500 for a TOTL arranger aren't looking to replace it in a couple of years... especially as how little gets added to it in that period.

Yes, the old Alesis blows away the drums in the G-70 and many other older arrangers as well...but, you wouldn't use one live...the G-70 (and S910) are much easier to use...you yourself said the arranger was far better for live work...and, it's not much of compromise, considering all the other features the arranger brings to the table like bass-lines, fills when we want them, and the ability to play SMF (if you need them)

The sounds in the S910, and to a lesser extant, G-70, are far better than the DX-7's, D-50/70, and M1's from the 80's and 90's....gee, the effects processors alone, are light years ahead.

I've got patches on my Tyros3 that easily rival any Motif.

Arrangers have far better or, at the very least, equally good, sound-sets than many synthesizers, and some, like the Korg PA, have editing every bit as extensive, or more.

Home organs were actually played by the user, using bass pedals, and a simplified drum machine...new rhythms and features weren't that important...you tended to keep the instrument for some time...like a piano.

Arrangers do all the work, and therefore people tend to trade up to get the latest and greatest unit to do the all the work even better than the last one.

A lot of my arranger buyers never played organ...they did play, however; most times it was piano that ceased once they were married and had small kids, and they no longer had the time...some used to play in their local bands, but again their careers and/marriages changed their priorities.

That's why a lot of arranger buyers are older...they have the money and the time...families are grown up, and they can now partake of a hobby they had little time or money for before.

That's been my experience, and I've been doing this stuff(including teaching) for close to 30 years now.

Ian

Not unless you LET them do all the work...

And, as little as most model upgrades offer, why anyone would bother beats me. 'Even better' ought to be 'slightly better', IMO. And why anyone trades around a $4.5k arranger for a few new styles and a couple of new sounds (and probably loses $1000 in the process) is sheer insanity.

But let's take this forum, for example. How many members we got, posting with any regularity (even once a month)? Just a few. How many arrangers sold? Thousands, tens of thousands, yearly (globally). We are the tip of the spear, the fanatical few. I don't think there is nearly as much upgrade fever as this forum would lead one to believe. For every customer you see every new product release, how many more do you NEVER see again?

Sanity is far more common than we would like to admit, I believe...

I have quite a few customers/clients that call me or email me and want to know when the next new one will be out, and these people are players, not amateur hobbyists.

Of course there are some who buy once, and get nothing new for years, but, if someone is using their arranger often, they are more than likely to want "new" after three or four years.

If it is presented well enough, and the perceived value is high enough and shown to be there, people will buy...that's the value of proper in store demos and clinics.

Certainly, there are enough new and repeat buyers to go around and keep Yamaha in business regarding TOTL and MOTL arrangers...I think the latter's idea of incremental changes is working...we may not always agree with it, but we can't deny it's success.

Ian