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#274141 - 10/19/09 05:01 PM How do YOU play Green Onions?
cassp Offline
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Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Here's part of an interview with Booker T. Jones, the composer and player of Green Onions. I found it quite interesting. There are more clips at www.keyboardmag.com
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid35146461001?bclid=27960355001&b ctid=29492199001

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 10-19-2009).]
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#274142 - 10/19/09 05:16 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Stephenm52 Offline
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Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 5126
Loc: USA
Good stuff!!

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#274143 - 10/19/09 06:46 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
SemiLiveMusic Offline
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Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 2204
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Awesome!
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#274144 - 10/19/09 07:38 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
GlennT Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 1790
Loc: Medina, OH, USA
I knew I would regret selling my B3.

Glenn

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#274145 - 10/19/09 10:16 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
DonM Offline
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Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Great stuff!
DonM
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#274146 - 10/20/09 07:30 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
He makes it look so easy and natural. How many times have we played that song knowing we were doing something wrong...
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#274147 - 10/20/09 07:47 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
tony mads usa Offline
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Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
.. thnx mch, cass ..
t.
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#274148 - 10/20/09 08:00 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvBXKCFiZnI

Ah the good old days of music!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar-Z_l907DY&feature=related

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-20-2009).]

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#274149 - 10/20/09 11:41 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cassp Offline
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Registered: 03/21/03
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Loc: Motown
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#274150 - 10/21/09 07:01 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
This song really gets boring after while

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#274151 - 10/21/09 07:55 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cgiles Offline
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Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by cassp:
Even better... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-7QSMyz5rg


I have to agree with Donny on this one. Always disliked that tune. All fluff and soooo contrived. And for ME, that video just reminds me of a time in America that I'd just as soon forget. You know what else is amusing (in a perverse kind of way)? Check out the chick at about 1:01 clapping on the upbeat (well, almost on the upbeat ). Without sounding too racial here, I always wondered how the White musicians of that time could hear the beat just fine, but their non-musician counterparts, couldn't. Just looks bizarre (well, to me anyway). You had to wonder, what the hell were they listening to?. I know many Black 'headliner' type musicians of that era who refused to play in circumstances like those reflected in the video, but then again, I guess guys like Booker T and Chubby Checker and Little Richard did, in fact, pave the way for future 'true' crossover artists like Micheal Jackson and others. Interesting.

chas
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#274152 - 10/21/09 08:01 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cassp Offline
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Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Do you actually think that the audio and video on most YouTube vids are sync'd?

Thanks for the downer Donny and Chas....
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#274153 - 10/21/09 08:08 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Mr. Jones didn't use the Leslie much back then, at least in this tune.

I recall Brian Auger wasn't a fan of the Leslie either...I believe he used guitar amps, Marshall I think....they were valve (tube) amps for sure.
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#274154 - 10/21/09 08:16 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
To me the whole Hammond sound thing is a bit overrated...especially when to-days keyboards can simulate close enough to the original to be effective....& plus you have the extra benefits of so many other vintage sounds & many others with EFX and editing capabilities all in one on-board unit. Although I still like to watch a Master at work like Tony Monaco, Joey DeFrancesco & others on a B3........for me it's the player not the instrument...
The Nord Hammond sound is a perfect example.... & let me say that some of the new Yamaha Tyros 3 & S910 organs like the Rock Rotary are VERY authentic & effective.
But to froth at the mouth every time Hammond B3 is mentioned is ridiculous & certainly only a sentimental memory of a bygone era that many of us lived through....but it's time to move on I would say.

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#274155 - 10/21/09 08:51 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
The sound of a Hammond organ is timeless in the way that the sound of an acoustic piano or acoustic guitar is timeless.

Why? Because there is no fossilized, shrink-wrapped Hammond sound. It is not just another preset like Fantasia on a D-50.

The "Hammond sound", if you like, is as much a style, a feeling, a mood, a colour.

The reason for this is simple....the original Hammond organs pumped out their sounds via tone wheels and dusty old switches...all manner of variable mechanics and electronics, which meant that no two instruments really sound quite the same.

Whereas there are no "great" G70s, or Tyros2's, or Korg M1's, (or Nord C-1's) there are certainly great Hammond B-3's....the same is true for Fender Rhodes pianos. They have a "personality".

What would "A Whiter Shade of Pale" sound like on a Lowery, or an Electone, or a PA2X Pro? Nothing like the original.

Hammonds...timeless they were....and still are.
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#274156 - 10/21/09 09:01 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by cassp:
Do you actually think that the audio and video on most YouTube vids are sync'd?

Thanks for the downer Donny and Chas....


Looking at the musicians in the vid, this one appears to be in sync.

Sorry about the 'downer' thing. Truth is, I didn't like any of the 'Rhythm and Roll' or 'Rock and Blues' from that era. It could be that the social climate of the times had something to do with it. Or it could be that I just preferred authentic R&B. In any case, most of what I heard in my house growing up was Billy Holiday, Count Basie (my second cousin with whom I spent a considerable amount of time in his house in St. Albans, NY), Lester Young, Duke Ellington, Sarah Vaughn, Nat 'King' Cole, and others from that genre'. Later, that evolved into more modern jazz performers. I'm sure those early years and early exposures influenced us all. We all see the world through different cultural filters (I think because of my parents, mine was broader than most
Blacks in my age group). An era that exists as a happy memory for you could easily be a time of psychological pain and suffering for someone else with a different set of life experiences. That's life. But back on topic. I don't care for that tune, I've never been a big fan of Booker T, but I thought it was interesting in the way he was able to show us the subtle ways in which we screw it up.

Cass, go back and check that video again. That chick's rhythm is definitely suspect .

chas
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#274157 - 10/21/09 09:26 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
pasadoble Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 218
Loc: Portsmouth, England.UK
Absolutely 100% on the button there Ian...The original Tonewheel's are still revered even after 70+ years and sell for more than their original value whixh says a lot and I rather doubt whether there will be any Tyros 3's in existence in 70 years time...long live the Hammond !!

Noel J


Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
The sound of a Hammond organ is timeless in the way that the sound of an acoustic piano or acoustic guitar is timeless.

Why? Because there is no fossilized, shrink-wrapped Hammond sound. It is not just another preset like Fantasia on a D-50.

The "Hammond sound", if you like, is as much a style, a feeling, a mood, a colour.

The reason for this is simple....the original Hammond organs pumped out their sounds via tone wheels and dusty old switches...all manner of variable mechanics and electronics, which meant that no two instruments really sound quite the same.

Whereas there are no "great" G70s, or Tyros2's, or Korg M1's, (or Nord C-1's) there are certainly great Hammond B-3's....the same is true for Fender Rhodes pianos. They have a "personality".

What would "A Whiter Shade of Pale" sound like on a Lowery, or an Electone, or a PA2X Pro? Nothing like the original.

Hammonds...timeless they were....and still are.


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#274158 - 10/21/09 09:59 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by pasadoble:
Absolutely 100% on the button there Ian...The original Tonewheel's are still revered even after 70+ years and sell for more than their original value whixh says a lot and I rather doubt whether there will be any Tyros 3's in existence in 70 years time...long live the Hammond !!

Noel J




Sitting on the bench in front of a B-3 or C-3...nothing compares.

You "played" a clonewheel, but you "rode" a Hammond.

I had a 1957 Hammond B-3 with two Leslie 147 RV (reverb) cabinets...I wasn't popular with the other guys in the band when it came time to move gear, but they all said it was worth the aggravation for that "sound" that nothing else quite duplicates.

Even the key feel is very hard to replicate on a clonewheel, although Hammond-Suzuki is pretty close, even to the type of contacts under the keys.

I had an M-3 at first, with one Leslie 122, but I lucked into the B-3 (and Leslies) that was only used in a home, and was given a coat of Pledge once a week.

Those were the days, my friend.
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#274159 - 10/21/09 10:43 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
But to froth at the mouth every time Hammond B3 is mentioned is ridiculous & certainly only a sentimental memory of a bygone era that many of us lived through....but it's time to move on I would say.


Is that why you don't perform songs from back then, either? Breathlessly awaiting your Black Eyed Peas medley, in that case...

Anyone notice that it's always those that never played much organ (or piano, or whatever we're reminiscing about) , don't really 'play' so much as 'entertain' and are always the first to admit that they don't even carry the accessories to a gig that would allow one to perform in the same way as the original (bet he doesn't have a swell pedal either ) that are always the first to dismiss the tried and true classics..?

Oh, and it always seems to be 'well, I can't really play that well (but I'll hide it simply saying I'm not really 'into' that type of music) but I'll tell you YOU all ought to 'move on' and leave that music behind (it's boring, really ), while I continue to trot out old Italian chestnuts that predate it by decades'

Might as well 'move on' from real saxophones and trumpets, too, now that cheap arrangers can play them indistinguishable from the original, too (yeah, right! ).

Let's put it this way, Donny... you are a REAL accordion player, yes? So how would you feel about someone telling you that accordions are relics of the past, and modern arrangers are indistinguishable (and more convenient) than the real thing, and you should all just 'move on'?

Thought so...
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#274160 - 10/21/09 12:43 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Dnj Offline
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Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
dicki don't think or assume so much you'll blow a gasket....man that crystal ball is in high gear today eh? ....it's amazing how you know everything, but in reality don't know squat....it's actually humorous to read...impressing YOU in anyway shape or form is the LAST thing on my mind..nor' do I really care what you think to know ...but I will again pull back the reins and stop here.


Now where is my S910 I feel the need to play some Rock Rotary to Green Onions with a nice Cumbia style.

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#274161 - 10/21/09 12:53 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've never cared for Green Onions, it is a tune that goes nowhere. It has a catchy little phrase but after the first several bars, I'm ready for something else. I have played the tune in the past (wrongly I might add) but now cringe when sitting in with a group and someone suggests playing it.

As for the video, did anyone else catch the fact that several times when he says 'Fifths' he is actually playing a 'Fourth' and when he shows the drawbar registration of 808808008 that he also says he uses percussion. The top drawbar drops out when percussion is activated. This can be internally changed to another drawbar if desired, but I don't think that is the case here.

As for a real Hammond versus the many clones, there is nothing like sitting at a real Hammond. Between the mechanical aspects of the tone generator and the key contact system and the old tube circuitry, an original Hammond is a living, breathing instrument with tons of subtleties that has yet to be achieved within todays digital circuitry. And to say that any arranger or workstation keyboard can come close to duplicating that sound, those words could only come from a person who has never known or has forgot what a real Hammond sounds like or how it feels to play one. Even though instruments like the current Hammond-Suzuki instruments, or the Nord, or the many others out there, and even some arrangers/workstations can produce a sound that may sometime even fool a Hammond aficionado, I assure you that the person doing the playing is missing out on a huge part of the Hammond experience.

My first Hammond was an M3 through a Leslie 145 back in 1973. Since then I have owned 3 B3's w/122's, a B2 w/TrekII perc w/147, a BCV w/147, a XB3/122XB (still have) and I also own and use for gigs the XK3 Pro System with a Leslie 3300. I'm no expert on the Hammond organ, but I do know quite a bit about them and certainly enough to realize why the real thing is still a sought after piece of yesteryear.

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

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#274162 - 10/21/09 12:58 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I'm not assuming anything, Donny.... just repeating what YOU write. Now if that is not knowing squat, I'm afraid you have to blame the source
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#274163 - 10/21/09 01:01 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I'm not assuming anything, Donny.... just repeating what YOU write. Now if that is not knowing squat, I'm afraid you have to blame the source



Thank you another informative reply..

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#274164 - 10/21/09 01:22 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
To me the whole Hammond sound thing is a bit overrated... But to froth at the mouth every time Hammond B3 is mentioned is ridiculous & certainly only a sentimental memory of a bygone era that many of us lived through....but it's time to move on I would say.


I don't know what to say, Donny. I'm flabbergasted at your remarks. Would ou say the same for the accordion? I could definitely do a "power solo" gig with just a B3 (and maybe a SR16 drum machine for funs). Hammond-Suzuki never really marketed their Hammond arrangers in the US, but the ones I saw were something that I would have liked to play too. I sold my M-100 for the price of the 145 Leslie that went with it - big mistake. Any of those original Hammond models are still worth whatever they're going for. They are classic instruments.
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#274165 - 10/21/09 01:39 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
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Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Just turning on, or more accurately, "starting" a Hammond tone-wheel organ, is an experience...like starting an old car.

The Hammond sound itself, is definitely timeless...I upgraded to the S910 mainly because the B-3 sound was far more accurate than the S900's...and, no, it doesn't sound "exactly" like a Hammond, but it works for me, and it's only 400 lbs lighter.
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#274166 - 10/21/09 01:47 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cassp Offline
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Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
I'll stop with this - http://audioo.com/t/groovin--booker-t-and-the-mgs/5786f028e6c8132/

It's Utopia for me - a blend of the Rascals and Booker T. It identifies me and as much of my pop style as any one song could do. I sold a lot of organs playing that song and kept my trio playing for many years with it too. Whether you like the B3 or Booker T is irrelevent to me - this is money.
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#274167 - 10/21/09 01:54 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Thanks Cassp...terrific tune, and a favorite of mine, too.

I was trying to think of what describes a Hammond sound, and it's almost like it's "human", as in the human voice...it cries, it moans, it shrieks, it has many facets, all hard to describe.

Earthy, and natural...even though it is electronic.
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#274168 - 10/21/09 02:04 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2195
I drove an M102 for many years and for you folks who haven't had that experience, then you need to get your hands on a real Hammond at least once before you die. Take heed of your Uncle Ian and Uncle Dave.

Well, it seems Green Onions is a love it or hate it item judging by some of the reactions on here. Put me in the 'love it' camp. I'll still play it at the drop of a hat.

I'm sorry that it attaches memories of a troubled time for chas. For me, it attaches memories of a wonderful youth and, as chas says, that's life. For what it's worth, one of my cherished memories is that of a night playing at a USAF base and getting a standing O from a largely black crowd for my rendition of Green Onions. I guess they were feeling the groove as much as I was - and feeling the groove is what it's all about on that tune.

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#274169 - 10/21/09 02:06 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
You know, why anyone is flabbergasted at what someone that even confesses they play little, make no bones that they don't really know how to play many of the instruments they pontificate about (oh yes, there's that word again!), and is primarily a singer who self accompanies as basically as possible says about PLAYING beats me...

I'll hang on every word Donny says about singing, entertaining a crowd, hat choice, etc., (things he has demonstrated great ability for) but let's face it... Shouldn't he be able to PLAY pretty well before we take any of this with more than polite tolerance?

Donny keeps baiting me for an arranger only performance (apparently not happy that the ones I HAVE posted are a little dated )... Maybe before we get worked up about anything else he posts about PLAYING, perhaps we could bait him for some unaccompanied playing, or maybe something in the way of a live band where he is actually playing the keyboard all in realtime, rather than triggering someone ELSE'S playing...?

You know, in the spirit of fairness, and all that...

If I were you, I wouldn't take any of my advice about singing Not my strong point..! (Basically, why I don't even offer the advice or opiion!)

And, listening to Donny's PLAYING (not his singing), I have a feeling the same principle applies..
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#274170 - 10/21/09 03:03 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by 124:

Well, it seems Green Onions is a love it or hate it item judging by some of the reactions on here.


Naw, I think it's mostly the ORGAN PLAYERS (as in guys that identify themselves primarily as organ players) that don't care much for the tune (I'm excluding Donny as I think he just doesn't like this kind of music - FWIW, neither do I).


Quote:
Originally posted by 124:

I'm sorry that it attaches memories of a troubled time for chas. For me, it attaches memories of a wonderful youth...


It WAS a troubled time for a large percentage of America's population - You were lucky enough to live in the 'other' America. BTW, it's not the tune, it's the symbolism of the video presentation.


Quote:
Originally posted by 124:

For what it's worth, one of my cherished memories is that of a night playing at a USAF base and getting a standing O from a largely black crowd for my rendition of Green Onions


I once got a standing O for my rendition of Havah Nagilah at a Bar Mitzvah, too (I didn't book that gig ). I think it's the element of surprise. One, that you knew it, and two, that you had the balls to show up .

Look, music is such a subjective thing. Booker T may get voted into some music hall of fame or other but it won't be by a panel of organists. I know some gospel church organist that could smoke him. You need to re-evaluate whether it's a good tune or whether it just brings back a happy time in your life.

And speaking of symbolism, the 'B', just by it's presence, holds out the promise of some great music about to be made. Can anyone say that about ANY arranger or workstation? It has looked Father Time in the eye and kicked his butt. If I walk into a club and see a 'B3' on stage, I'm probably going to at least check out the first set. I can't think of any other keyboard that would get that same reaction out of me.

chas

I don't know about that 'Northern Hammond' though, I think Ian just made that up .
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#274171 - 10/21/09 03:28 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:

I don't know about that 'Northern Hammond' though, I think Ian just made that up .



It came with a free set of mittens and mukluks.

Actually I learned to play organ on a Northern Hammond CV, back when I used to go to church...around 12 years old, I guess.

The organ had four tone cabinets...they weren't Leslies, and several years ago, we rescued the organ from the church basement, and a buddy of mine, Ray MacKay, restored it, and it now sits in his living room. He has it hooked up to a Leslie 122.

It has the full AGO pedalboard.

It looks a lot like a C-3, but I don't think it has percussion.


There was also a model based on (or at least, looked like) the B-3.

Ray also has my old Hammond M-3, and it's been restored as well.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-21-2009).]
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#274172 - 10/21/09 03:36 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
pasadoble Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 218
Loc: Portsmouth, England.UK
Hi Ian

My Hammond initiation came at age 15 when after playing piano for 6 years I got a chance to play a T202 spinet in a local bar and got offered a job playing 3 nights a week straight away, did that for 2 years then picked up another full timer playing a T500 with 145 leslie, I used to love the valve & oily woody aroma coming from the Leslie and the full spin draft was cooling on hot evenings. Played all manner of Hammonds since then and use NI B4 on gigs nowadays but still have old L100-P in storage...In those days everything was YOU playing...no tricks or gimmicks and sadly real Hammond playing is a dying art

Another great Hammond player was Roy Philips from 60's UK group The Peddlers give this a listen..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyzZV-vpGGI

Rgds
Noel




Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Sitting on the bench in front of a B-3 or C-3...nothing compares.

You "played" a clonewheel, but you "rode" a Hammond.

I had a 1957 Hammond B-3 with two Leslie 147 RV (reverb) cabinets...I wasn't popular with the other guys in the band when it came time to move gear, but they all said it was worth the aggravation for that "sound" that nothing else quite duplicates.

Even the key feel is very hard to replicate on a clonewheel, although Hammond-Suzuki is pretty close, even to the type of contacts under the keys.

I had an M-3 at first, with one Leslie 122, but I lucked into the B-3 (and Leslies) that was only used in a home, and was given a coat of Pledge once a week.

Those were the days, my friend.





[This message has been edited by pasadoble (edited 10-21-2009).]

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#274173 - 10/21/09 03:52 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
That's a cool picture, Noel...I don't have any pics of me at the B-3...might have one with the M...got quite a few with other older gear...I should have a look.

I had a Hammond T-262 Spinet, which was a church model(locking top) for a short while, before I got the M-3...the T was transistorized, and didn't sound nearly as warm as the M-3 with it's tube amp.

The T also had a built in Leslie with a rotating drum made from cork, I think.

The T also had a fluorescent light over the keys, that used to wreak havoc with some places we played(buzzed like a bee).

I think the T-262 is at my friend Ray's place as well....he was the Hammond fixer back then.

The Hammond was the king, especially for R&B...Farfisas didn't quite cut it...screechy little buggers, they were.
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#274174 - 10/21/09 03:53 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Ian, your picture reminds me of the pre-B3 series; this could be a CV or an RT-1. The RT series used the AGO pedalboard while the A,B and C's used the 25-note pedalboard. The 2 (C2) series did not have percussion; that came in with the 3 series

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 10-21-2009).]
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#274175 - 10/21/09 04:01 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
There's a bit about the Northern Hammond here, Cassp.
http://zk3.hammondforum.com/archives/1997.03.march/msg00486.html

I'm pretty sure the one I played, did not have harmonic percussion...I believe my friend Ray, added it, with some kind of kit.
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#274176 - 10/22/09 02:39 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
trevorjohn Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 225
Loc: Cambridge United Kingdom
A bit late to come into this one I know, but I keep well away from onions, green or otherwise. They tend to make me cry and that don't go down too well with the audience. As for Hammonds, UGH. Give me my trusty old BonTempi any time.

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#274177 - 10/22/09 04:40 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
pasadoble Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 218
Loc: Portsmouth, England.UK
Think of a aged Hammond Tonewheel as you would a classic car from back in the days when things were made totally by hand and not the mass produced 'peas in a pod' we have today...there's room for the Bontempi's in the world but don't deride one of the most amazing musical inventions of the 20th century.

Rgds NJ


Quote:
Originally posted by trevorjohn:
A bit late to come into this one I know, but I keep well away from onions, green or otherwise. They tend to make me cry and that don't go down too well with the audience. As for Hammonds, UGH. Give me my trusty old BonTempi any time.

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#274178 - 10/22/09 06:12 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
--Mac Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 307
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia, USA
Here is a bit of a tidbit for you:

Booker T recorded the original Green Onions cut on a Hammond "M" series "schpinette" organ.

No Leslie.

Mic'd from the back of the open backed organ cabinet, which featured a single 12 speaker facing forward into the players legs.

What many think is the sound of a Leslie is actually the Hammond scanner circuitry at work.

Someone in this thread talked of "dusty switch contacts". Do you think those 9 contacts per key were dusty when the organs were brand new? They weren't. But the key click was something that the circuit exhibited, a "problem" that Laurens Hammond worked to eliminate for years, even though it was one of the big selling points of the organ.

One thing I've noticed time and time again -- those who have little to no experience with the real thing, be it Hammond organ or Acoustic Grand Piano or whatever, don't seem to be able to deliver a convincing performance using one of the clones. Those of us who have years of experience on the tonewheel organs almost instinctively know what sounds like one and what doesn't -- and avoid doing the things that don't sound correct. The same sort of thing applies to guitar amplifier simulators, too. A person dialing in a Rectifier amp sim that has never really ever played a true Rectifier amp in the first place won't be able to tell if the simulation is doing what is expected or not. Likely is the case that music will change accordingly as it always has, to meet the technology.


--Mac
_________________________
"Keep listening. Never become so self-important that you can't listen to other players. Live cleanly....Do right....You can improve as a player by improving as a person. It's a duty we owe to ourselves." --John Coltrane

"You don't know what you like, you like what you know. In order to know what you like, you have to know everything." --Branford Marsalis

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#274179 - 10/22/09 06:16 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
--Mac Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 307
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia, USA
Another tidbit:

When Booker T and the MGs recorded Green Onions, they were actually doing a cover tune.

Here is Harry James and his orchestra performing Green Onions back in 1955:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvBXKCFiZnI

Check out the rather tasty tube Wurly piano solo on this cut, someone was kneeling at the alter of Ray Charles for sure...

(Those in the know should notice the use of a famous Art Tatum device at both the beginning and end of that solo, too. A key of G Major Art Tatum device. Many of Art's devices were key signature oriented, Art was the master of letting the kayboard do what it does best in a given key. Real fast. )


--Mac




[This message has been edited by --Mac (edited 10-22-2009).]
_________________________
"Keep listening. Never become so self-important that you can't listen to other players. Live cleanly....Do right....You can improve as a player by improving as a person. It's a duty we owe to ourselves." --John Coltrane

"You don't know what you like, you like what you know. In order to know what you like, you have to know everything." --Branford Marsalis

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#274180 - 10/22/09 06:31 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by --Mac:
Here is a bit of a tidbit for you:

Booker T recorded the original Green Onions cut on a Hammond "M" series "schpinette" organ.

No Leslie.

Mic'd from the back of the open backed organ cabinet, which featured a single 12 speaker facing forward into the players legs.

What many think is the sound of a Leslie is actually the Hammond scanner circuitry at work.



Could it be that Booker T. just didn't have a Leslie at hand when this tune was recorded, so they did the next best thing, and mic'd the speaker?

The scanner vibrato, sometimes called, chorus vibrato, on my M-3 sounded remarkably like a Leslie on "fast"...my Leslie died one night, and I plugged the organ into my Twin Reverb (that was being used for my Polymoog and Wurlitzer piano)...the organ used a pre-amp/switch floor device to get to the Leslie, so I had a 1/4 jack cord coming from the organ, enabling me to go into the Twin.

It didn't sound half bad with the Chorus Vibrato switch in the "on" position, but it was pretty lifeless without it.

The other thing with Hammonds was that you had to oil them every so often, although a lot of them got by for many years without it...pretty tough instrument.

The M-3 was a nice Hammond, except for the shorter keybeds, and, of course, no presets, although the latter didn't matter that much, as I was always "shaping" the bars.

This thread brings back a lot of nice memories...stuff I haven't thought about in years.
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#274181 - 10/22/09 09:12 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3748
Loc: Motown
Ian, you used a Twin Reverb for keyboards? So did I. I different times I ran a Farfisa Combo Compact, a Hohner Painet and a Moog Opus3 through mine. I also used it for a PA for a while once I got a Leslie for the Farfisa. I bought that sucker from a high school classmate for $50 and sold it for $400. Now I could kick myself...
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#274182 - 10/22/09 09:49 AM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by cassp:
Ian, you used a Twin Reverb for keyboards? So did I. I different times I ran a Farfisa Combo Compact, a Hohner Painet and a Moog Opus3 through mine. I also used it for a PA for a while once I got a Leslie for the Farfisa. I bought that sucker from a high school classmate for $50 and sold it for $400. Now I could kick myself...


Yep, the Twin was a great amp...mine is still going strong; sold it to one of my keyboard students quite some time ago, and he's still using it.

I had a pair of Celestion full range speakers installed in mine, by my now Yamaha techie, and guitar playin' buddy, Gerard.

It helped a bit, and still kept that warm sound...back then we had a bass player, and I stayed away from that frequency spectrum for the most part, but I wouldn't put an arranger keyboard through one, as it still doesn't give enough lows...we gotta remember, we are essentially putting a whole band through our speakers.

Sure weighed a lot, didn't it? I don't miss that at all, but the tube sound on my Polymoog, Roland SH-2000, and Wurlitzer (and later my Rhodes)sure helped to warm them up nice.

They are worth a few bucks today.

That's why the Leslie was so nice...tubes.

BTW, I also had a Farfisa...a VIP-233 with dual manuals, and big fat cheap plastic "drawbars", two keyboards, and a "slalom pedal"...sounded pretty good through the Twin, but even better through a Leslie.




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-22-2009).]
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#274183 - 10/22/09 02:06 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Best amp for a keyboard I ever used (note I don't say 'keyboard amp', this only worked on one sound at a time keyboards!) was the Fender Super Twin. Weighed a ton (maybe where I developed my tolerance for hard lifting ) and would give a guitarist with a 100W Marshall stack a heart attack

Put a Rhodes through that, sonic nirvana...

Sadly, the scanner vibrato is the one area few clonewheels TRULY nail. I'd play 'no Leslie' a lot more if they really got it right. FAR better 'cut' and in your face sound without the Leslie (if that's what you are going for).

Hey chas... if you saw a Nord C1 on stage, you telling me you wouldn't stick around for the first set to hear THAT? Or an XK-3c with lower manual? Me, I'd want to hear what someone could do once they restrict themselves to just that one basic sound...
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#274184 - 10/22/09 02:37 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by --Mac:
Here is Harry James and his orchestra performing Green Onions back in 1955:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvBXKCFiZnI


I stand corrected. I guess I do like Green Onions. Thanks --Mac for hipping me to that arrangement. Very cool indeed.

Dave

------------------
Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band
The Modulators

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#274185 - 10/22/09 02:55 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Hey chas... if you saw a Nord C1 on stage, you telling me you wouldn't stick around for the first set to hear THAT? Or an XK-3c with lower manual? Me, I'd want to hear what someone could do once they restrict themselves to just that one basic sound...


Of course. That's the gist of what I'm talking about. I said 'B3' symbolically, but any of those three would tell me that I was about to hear a group that cared enough about the 'Hammond sound' to dedicate a considerable amount of money, floorspace, setup time, and musical content (that portion of the groups arrangements allocated to organ). But especially in the case of a 'real' B3, in that NOOOOBODY is going to haul that sucker around unless authenticity is really important to them. If it happens to be in a jazz club, I'm probably going to hear some 'poor mans' Jimmy Smith.

Listen, I've heard one organist after another claim not to be able to distinguish a B3 from a Nord C1 or XB3c when hooked to a leslie. The two main reasons for no mass migration (IMO) are, the layout (no drawbars and tabs) in the case of the C1 and Price (and to a lesser degree, weight) in the case of a two-manual Hammond XB3c. There's also the looks and aesthetics, in the case of the Nord C1. There's something regal about sitting behind the console of a real B3. It has a lot to do with how it makes YOU feel, as well as the audience. I don't think there is a single source to it's mystique. Some things have it, some don't. The 'B' does.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#274186 - 10/22/09 03:23 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
Some things have it, some don't. The 'B' does.

chas



Yep... I guess that would qualify it as the 'real deal'

Have you got the 'button drawbars' thing down on the C1 yet? I had an Electro at home for a couple of weeks, and after some initial problems, got pretty used to them. Plus, like many B3 players, back in the day I had my favorite registrations soldered in to the preset reverse color notes, so I never used to do much more than 'shade' the settings on the live drawbars, and used the presets for most changes.
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#274187 - 10/22/09 03:23 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
The SA Jazz Rotary on the little PSR-S910 has the vibrato chorus (scanner vibrato) nailed....one of the reasons I bought it.

Love that sound.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#274188 - 10/22/09 03:38 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Can you remove the Leslie, and still have the scanner vibrato still on? Plus, does it do the Hammond Percussion single trigger/polyphonic system that defines the Hammond sound?

I am as big a fan of that sound as you are. Trouble, of course, is it is just the ONE sound (or two, if you count the other one ). Want to shade off the high end drawbars (or add a bit of 1'), or add a bit of more weight to it for a chorus, you are kind of stuck. I'm pretty sure that, back in the days when you did play something with drawbars, you wouldn't play a whole song with them on the same registration. Even just raising the Perc level from soft to hard would help a line pop out. With the B3 sound, God is in the details...
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#274189 - 10/22/09 03:47 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
There's also the looks and aesthetics, in the case of the Nord C1.


Pretty well the only thing I didn't like about the C1 was the color...

Red?

Yes, it's the corporate colour, and it does look cool, in a combo organ sort of way, but it doesn't look, as you say, "regal".

If it was a black ebony cabinet, it would help quite a bit, and even some decent wood grain (some synthetic stuff looks pretty good...no, not Mac Tac...the stuff they use on some Mahogany Clavinovas is nice).

I didn't mind the Nord's pseudo drawbars...they aren't a big deal, as long as you can save your favorite settings, and the Leslie sim on the Nord was easily the equal to the Hammond XK-3c.

I also thought the key action was very nice...very responsive...handled single note repeats very well..felt "expensive", like it was designed by someone who played organ.

Just too bad it's red.
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#274190 - 10/22/09 03:57 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Better red than dead...

I've played Hammond's painted a variety of colors. Strangely, they all sounded OK The day that color matters in the slightest, I'm going back to my mother-of-pearl accordion!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#274191 - 10/22/09 04:11 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Have you got the 'button drawbars' thing down on the C1 yet?


Not really. But then, I was never a drawbar 'player', you know, those guys that are constantly fiddling with the drawbars (like some really annoying guitar players that are constantly re-tuning). A lot of good organ players make it a part of their technique or playing style; changing a registration on the fly, phasing chorus, vibrato and 'leslie' in and out, etc. I tend to be more static, using more presets (programs, on the C1) of all my favorite registrations. One poorly implemented feature on the C1 is the way program change is done. It must be scrolled. There is no way to input program numbers directly. It's up to you to group your favorite programs close together to minimize scrolling. The upside is that for every program, there are three one-touch regs for each of the three (bass, Upper, Lower) manuals. So you've got a LOT of variety with the touch of a single button, usually enough to cover all the bases for a single song. Combined with the Traynor K4 which combines both a 'tube' channel for warmth and stereo for a better leslie 'sim' effect, and sometimes combined with two podium 802's on poles for more volume and spread, it's an awesome sounding combination. I'm sort of laid up for the next month or so. This would be a good time for you to do your humanitarian 'good deed' and come up and help 'poor me' properly set up my studio....no, wait until my DM-10 kit arrives. And maybe my VP-770 (VP-550 replacement). More toys to play with . Don't forget, I also have a practically unused Fatom G7 waiting for you to show me how to get your 'signature' G70 piano sound.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#274192 - 10/22/09 04:12 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Can you remove the Leslie, and still have the scanner vibrato still on? Plus, does it do the Hammond Percussion single trigger/polyphonic system that defines the Hammond sound?

I am as big a fan of that sound as you are. Trouble, of course, is it is just the ONE sound (or two, if you count the other one ). Want to shade off the high end drawbars (or add a bit of 1'), or add a bit of more weight to it for a chorus, you are kind of stuck. I'm pretty sure that, back in the days when you did play something with drawbars, you wouldn't play a whole song with them on the same registration. Even just raising the Perc level from soft to hard would help a line pop out. With the B3 sound, God is in the details...


On the SA organs, the Leslie is on the mod wheel and is not removable, and same goes for SA Rock Rotary, which is a lot the same as Jazz Rotary, except for a tad less perc, and a bit more overdrive/distortion, although you can adjust the latter(and take it off) for both organs.

I rarely played the organ sounds in the S900...they just weren't "Hammondy" enough.

With the S910, I'm more encouraged to use that sound more often.

If I was using it exclusively as an organ, I'd miss the drawbars and the abilty to shade the sound...on an arranger, I don't find that as important.

You know, one of the reasons I was going to get a Roland arranger, is that they have great organ sounds; even the E-60/50 are very, very good, although they don't have the drawbars like on the G70.

With the S910, I don't need to go there...the organ sounds are finally good enough...nope, they aren't as flexible as I'd like, but they have "the sound".

The percussion is polyphonic, so a bit less realism there, but, overall, I'm very pleased Yamaha finally caught up to Roland, at least in the preset organ dept.

The S910's drawbar organ section, is still the same as on the S900, and less inspiring, and the inability to add distortion/overdrive with the Leslie effect is a pain...it's on the Tyros3(and I believe the T2 as well)...they have another effects block the S-series lacks.

Several S910 users have told me they like playing the instrument more than they did the S900...part of it for me, at least, was the enhanced organ sounds....again, I repeat what I've said many times...the S910 is what the S900 should have been.

Realistically, I'm afraid I'll never be gigging with a B-3 again, so the S910 fits my plan just fine... and, it's only 400 lbs lighter.
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#274193 - 10/22/09 04:22 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:

I've played Hammond's painted a variety of colors. Strangely, they all sounded OK The day that color matters in the slightest, I'm going back to my mother-of-pearl accordion!


Well, actually, it seems to matter to many people...but, it seems, the majority are former B-3 owners/players.

I think they could have garnered the jazz organ crowd if they'd gone with drawbars (even optional) and a more conservative look(mainly the colour).

Yes, some people painted their B-3's different colours...and, I thought they looked stupid (the organs, not the people) , but that's just me...I liked the wood look...classy.

There's just something natural and warm about wooden cabinets....the B-3 looks, as Chas aptly put it, "regal".

Some people hear with their eyes, as well as their ears.
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#274194 - 10/22/09 04:51 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
The sound of a Hammond organ is timeless in the way that the sound of an acoustic piano or acoustic guitar is timeless.

Why? Because there is no fossilized, shrink-wrapped Hammond sound. It is not just another preset like Fantasia on a D-50.

The "Hammond sound", if you like, is as much a style, a feeling, a mood, a colour.

The reason for this is simple....the original Hammond organs pumped out their sounds via tone wheels and dusty old switches...all manner of variable mechanics and electronics, which meant that no two instruments really sound quite the same.

Whereas there are no "great" G70s, or Tyros2's, or Korg M1's, (or Nord C-1's) there are certainly great Hammond B-3's....the same is true for Fender Rhodes pianos. They have a "personality".

What would "A Whiter Shade of Pale" sound like on a Lowery, or an Electone, or a PA2X Pro? Nothing like the original.

Hammonds...timeless they were....and still are.



Amen to all of the above

Just wanted teo edit to say..a m8 and I both bought flat top stage 73's in Canberra years ago, both at the same time both with the Dyno My Piano kit, and you know with the same knob setups and through the exact same amp, they both sounded different...Really!!!

Dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 10-22-2009).]

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#274195 - 10/22/09 05:42 PM Re: How do YOU play Green Onions?
--Mac Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/08
Posts: 307
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia, USA
Quote:

Yes, some people painted their B-3's different colours...and, I thought they looked stupid (the organs, not the people) , but that's just me...I liked the wood look...classy. .... Some people hear with their eyes, as well as their ears.




I've had to refurbish some pretty bad cabinets. Too many nightclubs, too many years in a trailer or shed.

The really bad ones can't be refinished, isntead, I fill the torn off veneer areas with auto body putty, then sand, fill again, primer, sand, then have them shot in a base color like black or white. Plenty of churches love a white B or C.

Of course, if the cabinet wood is intact enough, I would refinish to look like original.

Wildest one I ever did, originally had painted it gloss white, it sat in the music store for a few months and then this lady wanted it for a rock act -- and asked if it could be painted pink. We negotiated, money changed hands and the innards came back out of the B and it was off to the auto paint shop yet again where it got shot with the grossest pink auto paint you can imagine. Poor thing.

Bidness is bidness,


--Mac
_________________________
"Keep listening. Never become so self-important that you can't listen to other players. Live cleanly....Do right....You can improve as a player by improving as a person. It's a duty we owe to ourselves." --John Coltrane

"You don't know what you like, you like what you know. In order to know what you like, you have to know everything." --Branford Marsalis

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