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#272891 - 10/05/09 06:20 PM Re: Are Bose that good?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by DonM:
I think my views are well known already, but I will echo what Ian and Gary said.
I'm using two Compacts, and love it. Diners can (and do) sit four feet from one of my speakers and don't complain. I can also be heard just about as clearly in the back of the room. Waiters can take orders. I even have people take cell phone calls sometimes without getting up and leaving the room.
When I want to rev it up later in the evening, no problem. They will rock pretty good when you crank them.
I've only used by conventional L1's one time since I got the Compacts, and it turned out that time the big units were unnecessary.
In fact I have sold them.
DonM


Having 'guest appeared' on Don's stage, I can attest that what he is saying is true ... beautiful crisp sound, and I was singing into the mic directly in front of the speakers and there was ZERO sign of feedback ...
t.
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#272892 - 10/05/09 06:54 PM Re: Are Bose that good?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by zuki:
So Don, I'm assuming that I should go from my L/R outputs into the RCA stereo Bose ins? Interesting. I thought that regardless of running stereo in, only one speaker will still produce mono? I'm confused. How should I hook this thing up on Friday? The Korg L or R outputs BOTH produce a mono output (according to the manual, it doesn't matter which one to use - btw, the Korg tech desk didn't know) Thanks all.


Oh, it will still be Mono, but it just seems to be a fuller signal when I do it that way.
The Compact has "stereo" inputs for a reason, so maybe it routes it a little better.
DonM
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#272893 - 10/05/09 07:29 PM Re: Are Bose that good?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
zuki ... my kn6000 has left and right line outs with the R showing R+L ... but even if I am not running stereo (which most of the time I have not been), the kb sounds fuller when I have both the L and R line outs plugged in ...
t.
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#272894 - 10/05/09 07:52 PM Re: Are Bose that good?
zuki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 4716
Quote:
Originally posted by DonM:
Oh, it will still be Mono, but it just seems to be a fuller signal when I do it that way.
The Compact has "stereo" inputs for a reason, so maybe it routes it a little better.
DonM


Are you sure the unit won't be overloaded running the L/R into an RCA input? I think I discussed this with Bose and they mentioned that, but I'll check again tomorrow. I have all week.
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Studio: Korg PA4X/Yamaha DGX670/Yamaha PSR SX900/Boss BR900CD/Tascam DP24SD/MTM Iloud/Senn 935/K&M stand/Shure SM57/Sony C80 (2)/Blue Encore 300

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#272895 - 10/06/09 12:56 AM Re: Are Bose that good?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
There are two RCA inputs, l and r. That's what they are designed for.
DonM
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#272896 - 10/06/09 12:59 PM Re: Are Bose that good?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
RCA inputs are generally designed for relatively low level line outputs, such as you get from CD players etc..

The thing is, the only thing that is happening is SOMEWHERE, two stereo signals are being summed to a mono signal. Either in the arranger itself, or in the Bose. But nothing else should be happening.

Trouble is, at some point you are either losing signal or gaining it, it you claim to be able to hear things get 'fuller' (which is usually a perception of a volume increase, as well as POSSIBLY a timbral change as well).

The only way to be SURE that what you are hearing is not simply a result of it simply being a bit louder (you can easily read up anywhere about the ear's tendency to equate small volume differences into perceived EQ changes - look up 'equal loudness contour' if you want more info) is to do the test I outlined earlier.

But you can't equate what happens with a Yamaha with what will also be true for a Korg, or Roland, or anything else. One thing that is obvious from the PSR series is that Yamaha have cut a LOT of corners to produce the thing as inexpensively as possible. Inexpensive case, inexpensive action, inexpensive buttons, etc., etc., (but don't get me wrong, it's still a great arranger, but simply built for the home market, who, to be fair, are unlikely to ever hear it in mono anyway)... It strikes me as likely that they MIGHT have cut corners with the stereo to mono summing, and perhaps chosen to do it passively (basically, simply connecting the two wires together like using a splitter cable) rather than actively (using electronics and circuits to do it electronically). There's a REASON you don't hook gear together by simply touching the wires. I mixer is MUCH more than simply connecting the wires. There's all sorts of electronic buffers, resistors, capacitors, whatever, to ensure that the signal remains the same as it gets mixed.

Now, I'm not doing anything but speculating, but this might be what is making the PSR's so different for their owners in mono externally or internally mixed. But until SOMEONE gets the urge to actually test this out, that's all it's ever going to be.

Speculation.

Personally, I HAVE tested my G70, and hear no difference between internally and externally mixed mono. And, to be honest, for any other non-budget arranger, I would be very surprised if there was a difference. PA800, I wouldn't imagine that there's any difference between using one cord mono out to mono in, and using a stereo cord to a stereo in (upon which the mixer mixes it to mono), other than PERHAPS a change in gain slightly.

Trouble is, that small change in gain MIGHT still lead you to perceive a small timbral change. But it will likely be very small. Nowhere near what PSR users report, anyway.

We've been talking about this issue for YEARS. Surely SOMEONE is willing to take a few minutes to answer the question once and for all?
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#272897 - 10/06/09 01:25 PM Re: Are Bose that good?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Again, both Gary Diamond and I, along with Hank and Semilive, extensively tested the Yamahas' ability to sum to mono. We all easily agreed, it wasn't done correctly inside the keyboard. Gary can even tell you why, I think.
I just know it's better when you use both outputs.
Regarding the "stereo" ins on the Compact. Yes, the volume is greater when you use both. It sounds fuller. Not certain if that is the entire reason, and don't care. It sounds fuller when you use both.
DonM
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#272898 - 10/06/09 01:34 PM Re: Are Bose that good?
124 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 2195
I guess things can be lab-tested ad infinitum, but it's all in the psychoacoustics, the aural perception of the listener that counts in the end.

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#272899 - 10/06/09 01:59 PM Re: Are Bose that good?
zuki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 4716
I spoke with Bose technical gurus today and they said there is no difference in running mono or RCA stereo. They did encourage to experiment for myself and I may hear a difference.
_________________________
Live: Korg PA4X/Zed 6FX/EV Everse 8s/Senn 935/K&M stand

Studio: Korg PA4X/Yamaha DGX670/Yamaha PSR SX900/Boss BR900CD/Tascam DP24SD/MTM Iloud/Senn 935/K&M stand/Shure SM57/Sony C80 (2)/Blue Encore 300

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#272900 - 10/06/09 04:37 PM Re: Are Bose that good?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14194
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by DonM:
Again, both Gary Diamond and I, along with Hank and Semilive, extensively tested the Yamahas' ability to sum to mono. We all easily agreed, it wasn't done correctly inside the keyboard. Gary can even tell you why, I think.
I just know it's better when you use both outputs.
Regarding the "stereo" ins on the Compact. Yes, the volume is greater when you use both. It sounds fuller. Not certain if that is the entire reason, and don't care. It sounds fuller when you use both.
DonM


Thanks, Don. Gary, feel free to enlighten us, if you will...

It's unsurprising you'll get a volume bump when you are feeding two inputs (1+1=2, if I remember rightly ), but I think the 'more fuller' comment, at least in Yamaha's case, is MUCH more to do with the summing engine (and phase issues with the samples and effects themselves) than mere volume. If it were equal across manufacturers, it might simply be the volume issue, but it seems that the Yamaha's have definite issues.

Thing is, if someone REALLY quantified it, made it public and kept the issue on the front burner at the various Yamaha and SZ forums, there's a possibility that it MIGHT get addressed by Yamaha. But (in reference to another thread at SZ about how Yamaha owners rarely admit to ANY fault) if it is hidden, rarely talked about, and dismissed as no 'fault' at all, what is Yamaha's incentive to fix it?

Squeaky wheel gets the grease...
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