http://www.danielwatt.com/page4/page69/page69.html

Also includes some stand Photo's

[This message has been edited by abacus (edited 09-27-2009).]

wow what a difference in size.....but in reality is there a big difference in sound?

Hi DNJ
Apart from the SA2 voices the T3 has a compressed MP3 sound whereas the Wersi doesn’t. (Now if they had added SA2 and the guitar mode to T2 then they would have a cracking CD quality board, however it would still be lacking the live sound of the Wersi, IMO the T3 is 1 step forward and 2 steps back compared to the T2)
And yes I have compared the T2 and T3 live alongside most of the other keyboards/organs on the market. (If I had to make a choice between the T3 and T2, I would have no hesitation in choosing the T2, but then that’s just MO)
BTW All of the OAS 7 Wersi models have exactly the same sound engine, and it is only the Apollo and Pegasus Wing that has something different with its OAS Lite system. (They are also the only 2 models that are set up to work OOTB like other manufactures)
Hope you enjoyed the photos

Bill

Bill thank you for the explaination......I hope some day to see or even play a Wersi of any model & then I can experience for myself many of the things your talking about. I wish there were some dealers around the Philadelphia/NY area.

Any chance of hearing anything on the Wersi that sounds remotely 'live'?

As dated and undynamic as the Wersi drums sound, where on earth do you get the impression that it sounds better than the T2?

You see, from my point of view, what you play a sound THROUGH isn't as important as what the sound sounds like in the first place. And so far, I am still waiting to hear something from the Wersi drums that pops and snaps as well as Roland and Korg. Lording it over the Yamaha's doesn't really count...

They both have the same unrealistic drums, IMO. Put the Yamaha's through a big Wersi sound system, I doubt you would feel there's much in it.

There are thousands of people that enjoy Wersi products worldwide & that's all that matters. They listen, they buy, play and enjoy making music, now they all can't be wrong? ......nothing wrong with that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEs9O9qCock

Listen to the the applause.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-27-2009).]

And hundreds of thousands that buy Yamaha's and Roland's and Korg's...

If numbers are supposed to impress me, why don't these impress YOU?

Only thing that impresses me is the SOUND, not whether anyone buys something in numbers, or whether a player is good enough to get his audience to clap. I've seen people clap for someone on a Casio, for Pete's sake (deservedly, too)...

I don't see you extolling THOSE...

Exactly Wersi definitly doesn't care if it impresses YOU! They have enough of a solid following...
http://www.jazzhooves.com/2009/06/brett-wales-plays-at-the-wersi-2009-festival/

Hi DNJ
Ring up or email Wersimusic www.wersimusic.com and see if there is someone in your area who has one, as most Wersi owners will be perfectly happy to let you try it, (Don’t worry if its an organ, as you can ignore the pedals and treat the lower as the left hand split and the upper as the right hand split) plus the hospitality is usually much better then a dealer offers.

Wersi has never had a large number of dealers, as most are bought to user’s attention by word of mouth or recordings and concerts, however Wersimusic may know of one closer to you.
Regards

Bill

Hi Bill........I'll try to make some contacts around here who might have one......We actually used to have a Wersi dealer in Lancaster, PA about 2 hours away......last year Fran went on vacation and was going to stop in, But....even though the website still showed a dealership all that was there when he arrived was a faded sign and on the site was a Liquor store whose proprietor said Wersi moved years ago.

[img]http://tinyurl.com/47szhr[/img]

You can see "WERSI" faded behind the sign



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-28-2009).]

Presumably, you need to be liquored up before you start to believe that everything you have heard involving the Wersi styles really IS better than a MODERN arranger...

Why are you so down on Wersi units....is it the sound, or the price that makes you feel that way? Have you actually played one of the new Wersi models yet?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-28-2009).]

I've listened to them all. Basically, the only unbiased way to do it...

I truly believe that, if you can't record something on a keyboard that sounds great played back at home (don't forget, I'm using a MOTU 24bit converter to play back computer audio through a pair of Mackie HR824's), chances are. it's not going to magically turn into something great when you get it home. Just a slightly bit better fidelity disappointment the original demos were.

I've heard the factory styles demos. I've heard the factory T2 demos (still waiting for an extensive set of T3 ones to be put up, hint, hint... ), I've heard the PA2Xpro demos, and Ketron too (to be honest, Roland don't have a lot of straight style demos).

Wersi doesn't impress me in the slightest. I am wondering what anyone is listening to that IS impressing them..? Stock Wersi sh*t, give it your best shot...

Wersi make really great organs. No argument (other than, I like the Hammond sound over the Wersi any day ) at all. Trouble is, organists keep reviewing their arrangers. I don't see anyone posting ANY great Wersi music they have done here.... Now, are they all shy, do they all suck, or is it bloody impossible to make something as good as the 'average' player does on a T3/PA2xpro, etc.? Me, I'm inclined to believe the latter...

Until proved otherwise.

I view the current Wersi lineup as being a direct descendant of the Theater (Theatre?) Organ in concept.

Thus, comparing it to auto-accompaniment keyboards that are all about the emulation of other real instruments via wav file samples and the like may not be exactly a fair thing to do. There exists a large base of those who like the Theater Organ sound and concept. Wersi seems to lean in that direction.


--Mac

Surely you jest. The Wersi has a huge assortment (1 Gig+) of sounds called Long Waves that are comprised of many multi samples that are intended to sound like the real instrument and do. Organ sounds are but one facet of the Wersi. You want even more realistic sounds than any embedded arranger has, simply load a VSTi into the Wersi and then you'll have sounds so realistic the only thing stopping you from sounding like the real instrument are the nuances and phrasing you'd need to understand about each instrument to try and fool even the best musician. Easier said than done for sure.

I see once again the Wersi bashers are out and yet I'm certain most have never seen a Wersi in person let alone played one. What a great way to base an opinion on an instrument by never playing it.

Ensnareyou great post and thank you for the info on the Wersi...it seems to be a LOVE or HATE it for some reason...but as you say without actually playing one how would anyone know what it can do?....I myself have many time bought units without playing them first or have listened to someone who thought it was the best thing available and have kicked myself for it too leading to a quick sell off..

I am positive that Ensnareyou is quite capable of deciding whether he likes an arranger by listening to it over the internet. Let us not forget, all of our audiences get THEIR impression of what we play from listening to it, too!

As I have said, ad nauseam in the past, there isn't enough difference between a decent bitrate MP3 and a 44/16 .wav that would turn something that sounds like poo into something that doesn't. Hearing it in person merely gives you better fidelity poo!

Wersi owners, due to the almost impossibility of finding one to listen to, continually hide behind this flimsy 'excuse' to deflect well earned criticism of their arranger/organ. And next they will wax poetic about 'long waves' and VSTi's, yada yada yada...

Trouble is, I'm not saying a darn THING about the lead voices. I've been talking styles... Styles SO bad that the ability to play Yamaha styles is a necessary add-on. Upon which, it promptly drops all the Mega information from the Yamaha styles, the thing that makes them so realistic in the first place.

Then the very next thing the Wersi apologizers will say is that they don't use factory styles. Good gosh! How plebeian! THEN they will make flimsy excuses as to why they are unwilling to post their custom styles, and once again we are in the dark (because they drew the shades )...

How about, JUST ONCE, someone with a Wersi post something they have done BY THEMSELVES, using these mythical user styles that they CLAIM sound better than styles from the Big3....?

And let us judge for ourselves.

Of yeah, that's right... The mere act of recording it and posting it as an MP3 (use 256kbps, even) would completely DESTROY the sound so badly, it would turn into the pile of poo we know and love so well. You know what's weird? Whenever there IS a decent demo by Brett Wales, or any of the other top Wersi professional demonstrators, all of a sudden there's complete silence from the 'don't listen to MP3's, only playing it is good enough for an opinion' faction. A little consistency here would help!

Once again, I gotta repeat it (or the point will be conveniently ignored), this is all about the Wersi styles. Bill keeps posting them, and the rest of us gasp at how bad they are, then this pathetic 'you've got to play one' excuse keeps getting trotted out. You don't have to play a G70 to hear what it really sounds like (the factory and user demos sound basically EXACTLY what it sounds like, with just a hair of MP3 encoding to veil it SLIGHTLY). You don't have to play a T3 to know what it sounds like, you don't have to play a PA2Xpro to know what it sounds like. It sounds EXACTLY like the web demos, only SLIGHTLY better fidelity.

So, I know EXACTLY what a Wersi sounds like. It sounds just like what I heard, only SLIGHTLY better. And, I'm sorry, but that 'slightly' isn't enough to turn those lame styles into something that blows away a T3/PA2X/E80's styles.

RH sounds, sure, they are as good as you need them to be (and if they aren't, you can use VSTi). But the styles are poor, the Yamaha conversions are poor (relatively), the drums are SO eighties, it seems a shame to put a state of the art lead sound over an eighties style sound...

I don't HATE Wersi's. I don't hate anything But, I CAN tell when one thing SOUNDS better than another, and that's what I'm hearing here. And usually, when something sounds worse than something else, one expects it to COST LESS. Not three times as much...

I wasn't meaning to bash the Wersi at all.

Frankly I respect Theater Organists and what they do. But I tend to love most all styles and genres of music, as long as the player has taken the time to prove to the audience that they have a certain quest for the discipline that results in what we generally call good taste.

But I stand by what I tried to convey earlier in this thread, which is that I think the Wersi offerings are geared more towards the Theater Organ set than other auto-accompaniment keyboards out today seem to be. Didn't know there could be something inherently *wrong* about that...


--Mac

Hi Diki
You have heard demos of the new Roland Ateliers online and you find them not much different to your G70, however I can guarantee that if you heard them live you would find that there is a whole magnitude of difference between them. (The same goes for the PA1x and PA2x, which seems like small differences online, but there is a complete magnitude of difference when heard live)

Sorry to say but CD quality recordings don’t cut it with modern instruments, so MP3 has no chance.

Another point is that I record direct to a wav file then convert to MP3, whereas manufactures use multi thousand pound recording equipment with professional recording engineers, so have a much better chance of making it sound like it does live. (Apples & Oranges) This is the reason I say try it for yourself with your type of playing and music. (There are plenty of owners in Florida, just give Wersimusic a call who should be able to put you in touch with an owner within a reasonable distance)

As I have said many times before, coming from an organ background, styles are not my forte. (Also Brett and the like are pro’s, I’m not)

BTW the Megavoice information is not removed, as it is also used in OAA styles.

Regards

Bill

You really don't know what is going on, do you? How can something that uses 16 bit samples have a BETTER than 16 bit sound? You know, I am amazed you can convince yourself of all this hogwash... (Mind you, if I had spent THAT much money on something that poorly styled, I MIGHT be grasping desperately for excuses, too!)

Let's take, for instance, listening to the radio. Does it sound so bad that, when you hear a song that you like and know, you say to yourself 'I have no idea who or what that is'? No, you have NO trouble recognizing it for what it is. Let's take it one further. You listen to a CD of someone playing the piano, do you go "I have no idea what instrument he is playing"? No, you recognize it for exactly what it is.

But a Wersi...? No, that's a whole different kettle of fish, isn't it?

I am sorry, but alongside my work as a session musician, I also do mastering work for local studios and artists. I am probably a LOT more aware than you exactly what the difference between a 24bit 96kHz audio file and its' derivative 192kbps MP3 is. And one thing I can tell you is, nothing that sounded like crap at 192 (or even 128) kbps MP3 DIDN'T sound like crap at 24/96, too Just for the record, I use equipment up to and including Manley Massive Passive's and Manley Slam!'s and hardware L2's along with Apogee converters, then a plethora of software solutions including UAD Mastering software and Waves.

You record the flowers growing at 24/96, it doesn't sound like the toilet flushing at 128 MP3! And vice versa...

Here's the rub. Almost everything you listen to on the radio and on the TV has undergone some data compression. Yet much of it sounds great... But of everything that you listen to, somehow, ONLY a Wersi is incapable of being appreciated in anything short of 24/96?

Tosh, plain and simple. No offense, but I'm fairly sure, at your age, that you would have as much trouble as most people our age (I'm in my mid 50's) telling the difference between a CD rip and a good 256kbps MP3 in a true double blind listening test. Even so called 'golden ear' listeners have been fooled. And that basically lays it to rest. If the difference is SO small it CAN fool golden ear listeners from time to time, how subtle it must be... Nowhere near the gross difference you claim it HAS to be to excuse those awful styles. 24/96 rubbish is STILL rubbish! Only perhaps MORE so, as you can hear every excruciating detail

I've got GB's of recordings of my G70 (and earlier). Some at MP3, and some at 44/16. And you know what? It is EASY to tell it is exactly the same machine. Why does Wersi alone deteriorate into a pile of poo when IT gets encoded..?

Magic, I tell you... sheer magic!

Hi Diki
You have just confirmed most of what I have said in my post, Thank you.

The only point you haven’t answered is why there is a magnitude of difference between the new Atelier and your G70 when heard live, but not when heard online, your professional knowledge should have been able to answer this ages ago, (I have mentioned it many times in many threads) but you never do.
Why is that?

Bill

It's quite simple, Bill. I have never heard the Atelier and G70 back to back live. I have only heard web recordings of both. They sound pretty similar. I can definitely hear the same samples, the same sounds, and often the same kind of styles.

Now, tell me again how YOU managed to hear them back to back...

Did they, for instance, get played through exactly the same sound system, at exactly the same settings? Things that can color your impression in a live setting... I doubt it. You generally hear organs through their own powerful multi-channel multi speaker sound systems, while arrangers will get played through a conventional PA. That is a world of difference, right there...

In fact, the only way to get a true apples to apples comparison of the two IS to have good quality recordings made of both. It takes the sound system out of the equation. And when that has happened (as in Roland's OWN recordings of the Atelier and the G70) it is obvious that there's hardly a lick of difference. Certainly nothing worth paying an extra $15,000 for

I still stand by my assertion that, in person, none of the lame Wersi styles that don't impress many of us in the least wouldn't magically turn into something that DID. As I have said many times, Tiny Tim on a CD doesn't sound as good as Frank Sinatra on an LP When somethings sucks so obviously in the first place, higher fidelity only makes the sucking more excruciating...

Oh and BTW, thank you for ignoring every point I made, as well... I guess I can claim confirmation too, by the same logic?

Hi Diki

One of the many advantages of attending the keyboard festivals is live comparisons between instruments, including with the same sound systems, also I always take my own Grado headphones to use and thus take the speaker system out of the equation.

With the Ateliers there is normally pre-owned instruments available, (The previous generation use the same sound engine as the G70/E80 series) and therefore it is quite easy to compare old with new, (Organ cabinets and speakers are pretty much the same) and I can assure you that there is a magnitude of difference between the 2.

Many professional artists as well as home users play the Atelier organs and have upgraded to the new models, (No point upgrading if there is no improvement) and consequently I have purchased a number of the professionals CDs (Both old and new) which easily show the difference between the 2, (Not as much as live, but way above any online mp3 demos that are out there)

Hope this answers your question.
Regards

Bill

Sorry, Bill, but I think you place far too much value in whatever is hyped as 'new'. As far as I am concerned, playing exactly the same samples through what might allegedly be a new synth engine (which, as of yet, no-one has released any details about what exactly IS new about it... I personally am skeptical, as new engines usually come from new WS's engines, and the FantomG line isn't any kind of serious step up from the previous Fantom) doesn't make it significantly better. It's kind of like playing the exact same CD through a slightly better hi-fi... Yes, it MIGHT be a BIT better, but there's no doubt it is exactly the same CD...

The Atelier's Articulated voices completely failed to gobsmack me, unlike most of the SA/SA2 voices. And those were the ONLY things I have heard in the Atelier that weren't obvious lifts from the G70.

And there isn't a single thing in any of the Atelier's technical specs that indicates an engine any different from the basic Fantom/G70 engine. The thing is, a Bugatti Veyron looks MUCH faster when you are standing next to it... I think it is simply all too easy to be impressed by the sheer majesty of an organ (and it's sound system), and there's a definite tendency to look for reasons why it is SO expensive.

All too often, we attribute things to it that simply don't bear up to hard objective facts. Is there ANYWHERE that this new engine is discussed in any detail? From Roland's own Atelier page http://www.rolandatelier.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=933 the only thing that seems any improvement over the Fantom engine is polyphony, which would tend to support the idea of multiple sound engines. I think a bit of stat padding is going on here, as the VK organ section's polyphony is at least 61 notes simultaneous, the Rodgers organ section most likely has it's own substantial polyphony, and I doubt the G70 derived section probably doesn't exceed 128.

But other than the articulated sounds (whoopee! a whole FOUR of them! T3 must be quaking in it's boots ), most of those voice stats are actually poorer than a G70. Far fewer sounds. 450 or so compared with 1500. 18 drum sets as opposed to 48 in the G70. And this is just stock. Add an SRX card to the G70, you have added hundreds more voices and some more new kits (depending on which SRX card you get).

Let's look at the sequencer. 7 tracks in the Atelier 16 in the G70. No onboard SSHD to store everything.

I'm sorry, but just reading all this, I simply get the impression this is a flute/pipe/theater organ with a stripped down G70 tacked on. Roland certainly have released NO information that indicates any radical new technology. You would think they would, were it so groundbreaking... I have read Roland's entire ad copy for the AT900C, and there isn't word ONE about any new next generation voice technology. Just exactly where did YOU get this? Some salesman tell you?

http://www.rolandatelier.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=933

I enjoyed watching these videos demos.......sounds great.

So do the G70/E80 demos too...

Notice any similarities..?

While the samples used in the Atelier may have come from the same original sound source, you can bet the samples utilized are much longer, have higher resolution, and the AD/DA converters used will be significantly better quality than those in your beloved G70. I'll bet a side by side audition would easily show the Atelier to be the clear winner over a G70 or E80.

I don't give online demos much weight because I know that most often the instrument rarely sounds the same in person, sometimes better, often times much worse. Also, there are so many variables with online demos i.e. the players skill or lack therefore, poor audio gear used to track the demo, and most often use of MP3's which in my opinion truly suck. Perhaps an MP3 file is good enough for DIKI to determine the true audio quality of an instrument but I for one would never pass judgment simply based upon an MP3.

An MP3 is certainly NOT enough to give you the TRUE live sound of any arranger (there, bet you thought I'd never say that!) but it is certainly enough to get you within 95% or more of what the real thing sounds like.

Unfortunately, that 5% or less of improvement isn't enough to turn something altogether unimpressive into something that IS (Wersi, for instance)...

And neither is it enough to justify an additional $15,000 in price (Atelier).

There is such a thing as diminishing returns.

Look, I have a huge MP3 collection. Mostly ripped at either 192 or 256kbps. And there isn't a single tune in there that sounds very different from the original. There isn't a single BAD tune in there that isn't a BAD tune in its' original form. And there isn't a single good tune in CD form that isn't a good tune in its' MP3 version.

I am afraid you are grasping at straws.

Well Diki
If you listen to a previous generation Atelier and the G/E series arrangers you will find they sound almost the same, however if you compare them with the new Atelier, then there is a whole magnitude of difference. (Online demos don’t even come close)

That the Ateliers and the Arrangers have different features and prices have no relevance, as they are aimed at different markets.

Finally the sound engine used in the new Atelier will probably be the one used in the next generation Roland Arranger with all the features that an arranger requires, which means sound wise IMO it will blow all the other manufactures out the water, yet you seem hell bent on proving that it can’t or won’t. (Most folks would be jumping for joy that the next Roland arranger will probably NOT be just a minor upgrade, but you as a Roland owner seem dead set against it. Why?)

Bill

If these Atelier demos are any indication of what the NEXT Roland arranger generation is going to be like, I am not very hopeful. If moving on to a totally new sound generation technology makes so little difference I can't even hear it on a web demo, that's not much of an improvement, IMO

Listen to the difference between the T3 and the T1. Night and day. Listen to the PA50 and the PA2Xpro. Night and day. Listen to the G70 and the Atelier. What difference?

New technology flows from the Workstation line, NOT the home organ line. Arrangers were based on the Sound Canvas, then the Fantom technology. When Roland develop a new WS voice technology, THEN we'll see it incorporated into arrangers (and organs).