Yes I can't agree more with James. In the past I also didn't look further then Yamaha. Now I own a Korg and can't be more happy. No more Yamaha for me.

The trouble with this analogy is that it fails to explain why the TOTL arrangers have just seen something like a 25-30% increase in price (T2 used to be roughly $3500 street price, now it's supposedly pushing $4500), similar with Ketron, yet the MOTL hasn't seen this jump. The S950 is going to be only $200 or so more than the S900.

Now, given that both of these model jumps only represent a minor upgrade in technology, why the 30% for the TOTL and only 10% for the MOTL? One would have thought, IF having your customers over a barrel explained this, the MOTL could be as severely inflated.

Personally, I think it comes about because Yamaha are perhaps realizing the light at the end of the tunnel is the train coming the other way! As arrangers become less and less relevant to today's musician, at least for the TOTL, they are prepared to trade volume for profit. Sell 30% fewer arrangers at 30% more, you come out about the same. The only problem with this is that it is a death spiral. Anyone that watched the rapid increase in home organs' prices in the seventies and eighties as the market dwindled can't help but recognize the same trend here.

Yamaha's market research quite possibly point out to them that, at the MOTL price point, a 30% price increase will result in a greater than 30% drop in sales, as budget arranger users are on a MUCH tighter budget, but, at the TOTL, the sky's the limit. It appears they have heard of the saying "A fool and his (retirement) money are soon parted"...

The puzzling thing is, haven't Yamaha owners noticed, it only takes a while (six months to a year) before quality conversions of newer styles from the latest model become ported over for the older model..? If new styles truly ARE the reason T2 players upgrade, why don't they just wait? In fact, I believe that many ARE waiting... I certainly haven't seen all that many posts by T2 owners posting that they absolutely HAD to have the T3. At least, those competent enough to already play well and gig steady.

The 'home' user, though... he's ripe for the fleecing. If you can't PLAY any better, there's only one way you can convince yourself you are getting better, isn't there?

Thank God, at least the MOTL players recognize that price SHOULD reflect capability

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-15-2009).]

James I agree with your statement!! Having "Entertained" myself with a T3 for a weekend I quickly realized how much better the PA2x was!!When consider the asking price for the T3 .... Wow!
There is a clothing retailer in the NY area that has used this slogan for as long as I can remember "An Educated Consumer Is Our Best Customer"!! I think Korg may want to "borrow" this slogan. Roland could use it also. For many years if I purchased an arranger or drum machine it had to be Roland. With the introduction of the G70 they decided to market the KB in "Home Style Piano Stores" Wow ... that really worked! Hope someone got fired for that decision.
As I have stated befoe I had a G70, great arranger but no "Break Fill" to me this is a deal breaker .. why because there is a PA2x. If not I would still own the G70.
There has been a G70 sitting in the Sam Ash in LI for alsmost 2 years! When I demo'd the T3 I went over to the G70 and played and said to myself ... Dam if this doesn"t sound "Better" than the T3!!
Well I'm rambling here ...

[This message has been edited by JCkeeys (edited 08-15-2009).]

The 'home' user, though... he's ripe for the fleecing. If you can't PLAY any better, there's only one way you can convince yourself you are getting better, isn't there?

i made a good living with a florida organ retailer for years doin the above, the new organ would
have that style that made you a better player. and you just had to have it. i see the "keyboard business" hasn't changed.

JC, if it came down to the 'Fills' issue, personally, I would be balancing the lack of a Break/Fill with the fact that the Korg has two fills per style (and a break/fill) with the Roland's SIX fills and a Break (but no fill).

Transitions between style divisions has always felt less smooth and musical on the Korg's to me because of this lack. Two USED to be sufficient for a two Variation arranger, but in the land of four Variations, four Fills is an absolute necessity, and six (or more) is preferable. Two are, IMO, completely unacceptable.

The thing is, it's easy to re-task Intro's as Break/Fills (and gain up to four, rather than the one), but you can't easily use Intros as Fills (unless you are the kind of player that ALWAYS cues up your fills a bar in advance).

Now, don't get me wrong, there is MUCH to like about in the PA2Xpro. But, just as you can't do without a B/F, I can't do without smooth fills for ALL transitions. Difference is, on a G70, you CAN make B/F's...

Now I own a Korg for almost a month I don't have any problem with "only" 2 fills.

And yet, strangely, Yamaha, Roland, Ketron, Wersi, even Lionstracs ALL think that you need more than two fills for a four Variation arranger...

Perhaps you don't have a 'problem' with it because you have no choice?

Me, I don't have a 'problem' with no Break/Fills on the Roland. I have worked out a couple of workarounds (hit Break, THEN hit Fill - easy with a footswitch pedal - instant Break/Fill!). But it doesn't mean I wouldn't LIKE one (or four!). There's NO workaround for the lack of four fills on the Korg. And yet, you are happy with it?

Sounds more like defensiveness to me. I don't mind admitting the weaknesses in my G70. And strive to make workarounds for them. But when workarounds don't exist, I'll bitch and moan as good as anyone. Why are you so happy with 66% fewer fills than the competition? I've played a PA2xpro, and the FIRST thing I noticed was how jumpy some of the transitions were, compared to Roland and Yamaha...

I have no opinion either way on the topic of Fills on KORG keyboards but if it helps anyone, don't forget that the you have PAD's on the Pa-Series keyboards that can be used to trigger samples, one shot patterns, or even phrases that follow chord changes.

This applies to both instruments and percussion, so there are options available to function as work-a-rounds if need be.

You can run 4 pads at the same time too.

Regards
James

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 08-15-2009).]

Can you get the Pad to 'Replace' the Variation as well as add to it, James? I don't see how this could really be used to get a proper fill out of a Variation if it can't...

To be honest, I've always been a Roland guy, so I never had Pads on any arranger I have used. They seem like a great thing, if used carefully.

But I still don't see why Korg cling so stubbornly to the 'two fills and a B/F' paradigm for so long (especially as they just went through a major OS revision) while their competition outstrips them on this issue... How hard could it be to add the additional fills to the OS and use AutoFill to address them without even redesigning the panel (so it COULD be an OS refinement rather than a model change)..? Sure, they'd have to reprogram a few styles to demo the feature (and add it to future styles), but simple programming would allow already existing 2Fill styles to play like they do now (Roland's have no problem with older, two fill styles), and 4fill (or six, or sixteen!) styles to use the newer system.

It is, BY FAR, a simpler thing to implement than DNC, yet it remains unaddressed. Were I Korg, this, along with a plethora of new sample sets to make the most out of DNC, would be my main priority to improve the PA2...

No, it's not meant to replace any existing part of a style. They are performance pads that add to your performance and they can be set to sync with the arranger side of the keyboard or not. So all I'm suggesting is that with a little creative usage you could overlay them in a One Shot mode synced with the Styles to simulate a fill. How effective that would be depends on the style I guess.



I'm only guessing here but I would say it's not an issue that needs attention based on the activities I see on KORG Forums. I don't remember anyone ever asking for additional fills, and it's not on the current Pa2X wish list the guys have going over there.

I don't know really, I'm only guessing here based on what I read over on KORG Forums each day.

Regards
James