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#263561 - 05/21/09 04:07 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:


Four parts, an intro and ending in a style is hardly enough to construct a modern dance song.

You cannot slice measures on an arranger,nor can you slice an audio file to create a loop. not even on the tyros Sampler.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-21-2009).]


Four parts intro and ending is MORE than enough for a creative person to work with.

And in response to the "you cannot slice audio files on arrangers" maybe you should have looked deeper into the OS of the PA2xPro you said you had Particularly the sampler and the tools available to the user.

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#263562 - 05/21/09 04:42 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding:
King frog i dont think you understand what can be done on a modern arranger. You are talking as though you cant create beats and loops or sample loops or import grooves from
sample CDs or sequence tracks linearly or import audio into modern arrangers. That can all be done right now. When ever we get into these discussion we act as though the way music is created on an arranger is different to how music is created on a workstation. If you were to open your mind a little you would see that the PA1x/2X for example isnt just like a work station IT IS A WORK STATION. I can sit at my brothers Motif XS and make soulful rnB or hip hop and i can sit at my PA1X and do pretty much the same. The difference is that with the PA1X in addition to working completely from scratch i can also use the styles as a 'suggestion' for what i want to create. The XS tries to do this but it is not as intutive as the PA1X.

The point i was making when i raised this thread was that the similarities between the way arrangers can be used (by people who actually get under the hood of the thing rather than just play and exchange a few months down the road) are very close . But the features that are inherently similar between what is deemed a work station and what is deemed an arranger are deliberately overlooked and confused by the manufacturers to maintain market segmentation.

The arranger market and the workstation market are deliberately kept separate to maximise the profitability from each range .

There is absiolutely no reason why every 'workstation 'produced shouldn't have arranger functions. It simply makes more commercial sense to keep the markets separate


I know you CAN.....But there is such a thing as the RIGHT tool for the right job. Thats why I have BOTH an Arranger and workstation. Sometimes one can use a carpenter's hammer when they should be using a ball peen...No way the PA2x I had was as flexibkle or as intuitive as the Motif..LOL although I bought it becasue i THOUGHT I could have the best of two worlds. It wasn't. It was half of both.

Workstations DO have arranger funtions. The Motif does in spades. But No one on the Motif forums seems top care much about the "arranger" part. They do care about the 6000 arpeggios though they can put where they want in any are of the song or pattern, mapped to velocity and or keys.

As for plug an play arrangements....no one I have heard from or ead buys a Motif for that purpose.

The arranger market = home Organ market
Workstation market = Players in bands and home recordists. (no schlagers in a Motif)

Two markets with SOME overlap. I personlly do not see much overlap in the Tyros 3 and the Motif XS8 at all. They are distinct in purpose and result. If I could use one solidly in place of the other I would not have both. As it stands the Motif allows 1000X more creative ouput and choics than the Tyros and only slightly less than the PA2x I sold.

YES you CAN create beats on a Tyros...but can you RESAMPLE them? Can you slice an Audio file into a loop? Can you edit an audio file's waveform visually and adjust the sliced beat peaks...to change tempo and not affect pitch? Can you cesate a Lo-fi effect arpeggio from scratch? There is a whole list of things one cannot do on any arranger in the modern context...You can on the PA2x to some extent but it's not as intuitive nore does it have near the flexibility and capabilitys of the M3 or Motif. ..Arrangers are like th SB256. Nice and they give you a "hint" of modern music but one needs a whole lot more to truly create something original,

You guys need to wrap yourself around a real modern Workstation for a few months and realize the differences. They are huge. And there is no substititute for the INTUITIVE work flow when in the creative process rathet then have to find "work arounds" and make concessions due to technical limitations.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#263563 - 05/21/09 05:05 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Four parts intro and ending is MORE than enough for a creative person to work with.

And in response to the "you cannot slice audio files on arrangers" maybe you should have looked deeper into the OS of the PA2xPro you said you had Particularly the sampler and the tools available to the user.



The Korg has the best sampling modes and tools. In fact I originally bought the PA2x becasue it was more workstaion like than any Arranger keyboard both on the MIDI side and sampling side..... There shouldn't be a comlaint regarding the crossover from the PA2x to a workstation....until one looks closely at the M3, Fantom or XS...Way different animals.

However the Korg is the Arranger to get if one wants a workstation/Arranger.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#263564 - 05/21/09 05:22 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4643
Loc: West Virginia
KingFrog the SB-246 gives you WAY more than a hint of modern music. The difference between it and an arranger is OUT OF THE BOX it CAN produce modern drum tracks WITHOUT any tweeking. I know this personally KingFrog.., I own a Streetboxx. The preset kits on the SB blow away EVERY arranger keyboard on the market INCLUDING all the top end models.

Just ONE of the good preset hip hop kits from the Streetboxx would make any arranger out there sound more up to date.
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GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.

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#263565 - 05/21/09 05:47 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I simply think that everybody is making a mistake when they talk about the arranger market and the workstation market... To my mind, it is all one big KEYBOARD market. The only reason it is so balkanized is because the manufacturers have deliberately made it that way.

Sure, you've got BASIC chord following in the MoXs's and M3's. But you have no slash chords, no 'on bass' and few performance controls to quickly change the status of the chord following. You've got BASIC pattern triggering on WS's, but you can't drop into fill patterns any time you want, it's all 'one bar at a time', a fraction of the arranger's flexibility. And, for me, the biggest difference is that the OS for arrangers is designed SPECIFICALLY for playing live. WS's are geared more towards creation and assembly of finished product, but they are tough beasts to take in the field, and make them jump through hoops at the drop of a hat. From patch selection to loop (style) control, the arranger is DESIGNED for performance.

And this is where the arranger has a window of opportunity. WS's are still pigs on stage. And don't kid yourself for one minute that younger players that create music on WS's don't wish they were easier to be spontaneous and creative, live, too... They have the money for a decent arranger (they buy Nord Stages and FantomG's and MoXs's, they can afford it!)...

But squeak is right. Until the loop and arp design teams, and drum sample creators of WS patterns are turned loose on arrangers, no young player is even going to get a CHANCE to realize how easy it is to be creative and spontaneous on stage, simply because they can't get past how hokey most of the styles and sounds are...

But don't kid yourself... the only reason there appears to be two markets is because of the CONTENT of each type. In fact, fifteen years ago, WS's were MUCH better at making the kinds of music that most of us do. No 'gap' back then But they moved on, and the arranger remained frozen in time. And you know what happens to things frozen in time, don't you?

They end up in museums

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#263566 - 05/21/09 05:49 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
spalding Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 582
Loc: Birmingham
as usual we are going to get confused with technical specifications and actual musical applications. The XS can layer up to 8 elements in one go and they boast this in their demos all the time. But my brother actually owns the XS. How many sounds in the XS actually use actually use up to 8 elements in one sound ? . You will struggle to find more than 20. The only genuine application yamaha have for this is in their drawbar organs. Any other sound that uses anymore layers than 4 or 5 make very little musical sense unless all you intend to do is make lush pads that oscilate and crossover and fade over time. Put a few of them in a song and what do you have....one hot mess !!! The korg PA2X can layer up to 16 . I have never had the need to layer more than 4 or 5 at a push..so what ?????

And another thing ..how many records do you know where the sole instrument used from start to finish and all production was done entirely on one keyboard King frog? None ! Zero Zip! Whether i use the Korg, XS or Fantom it is only the basis for the scratch pad (a decent one yes) but never the less the scratch pad for my production. An arranger such as the PA series can fit in very well as part of that production.

Listen to a commercial RnB or Hip Hop record King Frog and tell me what you hear. Pick one you think cant be done on an arranger . Send me a link to it on youtube and i will do my best to reproduce it on my PA1X. Just bare in mind i don't have a multi million dollar studio :-)I#

I dont want to keep debating this with theoretical talk , i want to show you with a practical example. WE could even have some fun with it and see who on the forum can get the closest to it on an arranger :-) I am game

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#263567 - 05/21/09 05:58 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding:

The arranger market and the workstation market are deliberately kept separate to maximise the profitability from each range .



That sums it up pretty darn good...and it won't change much in the near future, either.
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#263568 - 05/21/09 06:20 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
That sums it up pretty darn good...and it won't change much in the near future, either.


Casio, Ketron, Wersi and Lionstracs don't actually make WS's (although the MS makes a passable one from a bad arranger ), so you would think that they have no reason to NOT try to break into this market. The MS tried, but couldn't come up with the content (and isn't what I'd call a 'user friendly' OS ).

And if those guys did, and made a profit, you don't think the Japanese wouldn't follow? In a New York minute, they would!

But, be it all as it may, I think we are obviously NOT 'preaching to the choir'... A bunch of old farts happy to the gills with the way things are aren't really those that actually CARE about this stuff. But move on over to the MoXS forum, or M3, or FantomG, and you might get a LOT more receptive crowd for these ideas.

Once someone showed them how easy improvised song performance is, live, with an arranger, compared to the clumsy WS's they now have, with the caveat that 'don't listen to the styles or sounds, just imagine if YOUR WS could do this, this easily!', and you might have a lot more people on your side compared to here, with it's 'it's good enough for me, it was good enough for my father, it ought to be bloody well good enough for my kids ' attitude that exudes around us...

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#263569 - 05/21/09 07:12 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by spalding:
as usual we are going to get confused with technical specifications and actual musical applications. The XS can layer up to 8 elements in one go and they boast this in their demos all the time. But my brother actually owns the XS. How many sounds in the XS actually use actually use up to 8 elements in one sound ? . You will struggle to find more than 20. The only genuine application yamaha have for this is in their drawbar organs. Any other sound that uses anymore layers than 4 or 5 make very little musical sense unless all you intend to do is make lush pads that oscilate and crossover and fade over time. Put a few of them in a song and what do you have....one hot mess !!! The korg PA2X can layer up to 16 . I have never had the need to layer more than 4 or 5 at a push..so what ?????

And another thing ..how many records do you know where the sole instrument used from start to finish and all production was done entirely on one keyboard King frog? None ! Zero Zip! Whether i use the Korg, XS or Fantom it is only the basis for the scratch pad (a decent one yes) but never the less the scratch pad for my production. An arranger such as the PA series can fit in very well as part of that production.

Listen to a commercial RnB or Hip Hop record King Frog and tell me what you hear. Pick one you think cant be done on an arranger . Send me a link to it on youtube and i will do my best to reproduce it on my PA1X. Just bare in mind i don't have a multi million dollar studio :-)I#

I dont want to keep debating this with theoretical talk , i want to show you with a practical example. WE could even have some fun with it and see who on the forum can get the closest to it on an arranger :-) I am game


Eight Elements can be used in a hurry if you use them for things like the sound of the dampers hitting the strings on a key off. Other elements for the guitars such as harmonics, slaps, squeaks. Multi sampled velocity alone on different parts of the keyboard can easily use up 8 voice spots each with their own key assignments,
velocity assignments, Effects, arpeggios, controllers on and on...the possibilities are endless...One may not use 8 elements all the time but certainly it's nice to know one can add a sound(s) to a voice to make it sound more realistic then determine how and when that voice triggers, and being able to get it done without delving into layers of menus using available keys, knobs and buttons. You are right,most of the XS voices use 4 elements and they are good enough.

The idea is EASE and intuitive work flow. Sure you can create anything on a PA2x as someone on a Fantom or Motif. But the guys using the WS will do it in half the time, and with far less "left" brain activity.IMO The Work stations are more intuitive and geared toward the creative process and not manual intensive, few multi depth menus to dig through to change an envelope or filter. Lots of buttons and controllers that can be tweaked then saved. Every part of a voice can be muted or soloed using buttons...Can't do this on the Tyros. I cannot even play the MIDI part selected on the Sequencer on the Tyros!! On the XS just select the track button and go.....easy. Now the PA2x is easier and like I said as close to a workstation as an arranger enthusiast will get.

The idea is what is a particular keyboards PRIMARY purpose? It's "workflow design"

Arrangers are designs to pick a style set into endings parts and go....Any more than that and its dive into the screen menus...
find workarounds...

Workstations are just that. They are designed for those to tweak things quickly no deep menu layers to do simple things like filtering,velocity switching, envelope, voice part soloing, adjusting, transport controls for the DAW,,,,,,on and on...s very intuitive.

Like building the same exact house with a hammer or nail gun.....the result can be the same but the nail gun will be faster and easier which means a lot if someone values their time and would rather spend more time experimenting then chasing through LCD menus to so the simplest of things......



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 05-21-2009).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#263570 - 05/21/09 07:24 PM Re: is there a youthful arranger market
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
KingFrog the SB-246 gives you WAY more than a hint of modern music. The difference between it and an arranger is OUT OF THE BOX it CAN produce modern drum tracks WITHOUT any tweeking. I know this personally KingFrog.., I own a Streetboxx. The preset kits on the SB blow away EVERY arranger keyboard on the market INCLUDING all the top end models.

Just ONE of the good preset hip hop kits from the Streetboxx would make any arranger out there sound more up to date.


There is nothing wrong with the 256 but its no MPC2500. And no the Arrangers cannot do beats like the SB . I'm guessing there are Not many arranger players that even use those "modern" Dance Styles. That simply is not Yamaha's marlet. they have the MM6, they have the MOs, the M50s, Junos...to do that job. Different markets..Even Different DIVISIONS within the company!!!!!!
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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