Yo Diki (and anybody else who thinks they have an ear for good authentic brass). This is the new ARX03 Brass board (for my FG7). Could you share your honest assessment. http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=987&page=video

BTW, are failed musicians elgible for TARP money? If so, then it's goodbye Casio, hello Audya . Me and you, Fran. All the way. It's bonus time, baby.



chas

One of these days, Fran is gonna kick my butt .

chas

He HAS been working out lifting that G70...

The board... Thanks for posting this, I went there when the board was first announced, but there was no video demo (just an audio one). I still shake my head and wonder why these companies think a rushed live NAMM video is sufficient to sell a product like this. Are things SO bad they can't put a studio demo together?

Another thing that worries me enormously about this demo is, listen to the full played demo (about 2/3 of the way through. Then go and listen to the audio demo (done by a different person). They are identical. Was this guy just miming?

But, anyway, let's leave all that aside. This thing is revolutionary! The ability to spread the voices over different parts (although I couldn't tell if it was a dynamic split, or just fixed points) is the key to brass realism.

The sounds themselves seemed OK, brass was pretty good, t'bones awesome, that flugel he played sounded a bit too trumpet-y at times, but that might just be the player. The saxes seemed good for what they were doing (section work), but at times I would have liked to hear a softer, airier sound. But the ability to have the board revoice your playing to match the area and density of chord is something quite new... Or actually, it isn't! My old Oberheim XPander had a mode where you could stack three patches on one note, and then if you played a chord, one would go high, one would go low, one in the middle. Or the 'Unison' mode an old Jupiters and several other synths, where all available voices would play if you played one note, then it would divisi as you played more notes... I have long held that these modes would work incredibly well on a ROMpler. Seems like finally someone agrees!

There was SO much about this board that this little demo fails to go into, and some pretty important questions. First, for me would be, does it do tutti/divisi in realtime? In other words, a trumpet, a sax and a t'bone. Play one note, they all play it tutti (with appropriate transposition), play two or three, they split up. It's one of the hallmarks that distinguish real players from sampled patches. It will be GREAT if this does this.

Another would be, can you use a breath controller...?

But overall, I'm pretty impressed with this technology. It takes a different tack to SA, but addresses some important issues about voicing brass correctly live. If you only have one hand for the part, getting the correct voicing on a sax/tbn/trp voicing is next to impossible over anything but the tiniest of ranges. The spread is too far to play, and octave tutti is only realistic for a small range (then the tpt or sax would jump octaves).

$450? Well, if you do a lot of jazz, R&B, soul and the like, yes, I can see it being worthwhile. But it DOES bring up an important shortcoming in the FantomG series. Only TWO slots. Already three boards available, more to come (pray for a VK-8 ARX board!). Didn't the FantomX have FOUR SRX slots, and the rack have SIX? It would be tough deciding between Drums, Rhodes and Brass as to which you need the LEAST!

For you, chas... if it is in your budget, I'd say go for it. Between the SA stuff on the Tyros (still got that?) and this, I think you could do some pretty amazing stuff. Let us know if you do go for it...

Chas, that is absolutely the best Brass sounds I ever heard on a keyboard....That includes Yamaha..

I think we are seeing the future in sound design...that Roland is obtaining....Earlier this week we heard the V-piano...that everyone that demoed ..says it is the best piano ever....both software and hardware..(Ernie Rideout's comments..

Chas, you have empty slots on your Fantom...start filling them up....start with the Brass board....If you don't..I am coming down there and kick your butt..

PS: why did you need Diki's view...you heard and know that was the best brass you've heard...ever..

lets not forget it all means noithing if you can't play them correctly

I guess Ernie Rideout doesn't know that Ian is the last word on whether a piano is any good or not!

And chas asked my opinion because he knew I'd be giving it, anyway (and I am a brass player)

Couple more things I'd like to know... Can you use the D-Beam as a 'virtual plunger' on muted patches (that would be AWESOME!)?

And do the saxes and brass have the 'SuperNATURAL' legato/staccato ability similar to SA? All the product page says about it is the auto voicing thing, which could just mean the splits, etc.. We know that Roland HAVE been working on an SA equivalent, and have heard some early efforts in the new Atelier organs...

But this thing at least has the 'potential' to help those not schooled in brass voicings to do a better job, Donny. Just like SA helps those with poor legato technique do a better job with sax emulation. It isn't JUST whether you can play it well. It's whether you can get a bit of help there, too!

I am anxious to try it (my local store stocks FantomG. Can't wait to hear it!).

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-09-2009).]

Correctomundo, Donny.

Also, these brass sounds aren't nearly as user friendly as Yamaha SA1 and SA2 voices.

But, when you're second best...you have to try harder.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-09-2009).]

Fran, I agree with you completely and that will definitely be the first add-on board for the FantomG. Why Diki's opinion? He's a brass player, he has a strong recording background, and lastly, we exchange rough tracks for critiquing and I have found his comments and observations to be spot on. I love doing old R&B/Soul stuff with Ray Charles/Quincy Jones-style horn voicings. Also, jazz funk organ with horn stabs. I love good 'in-the-pocket' rhythm and nothing punctuates that like a good brass section.

I also agree with Diki about that Flugelhorn being too 'trumpety'. I had chucked it off to my having listened to too much 'Miles' flugelhorn, and that maybe this was the way it was supposed to sound. Glad someone else picked it up as well. Still sounds great, though.

I also agree with Donny that you'd need to play it correctly to get the most out of the 'section' effect. But that's not a limitation of the instrument, just the skill of the player. But even in my klutzy hands, it'll sound better than what I'm using now (I tend to favor the 'horn' patch on the PA1x Pro although I have lots of other options).

I'll pick one up when they become available. My wife doesn't get alarmed as long as the package is small .

chas

So tell us about when you actually played this, Ian... because that's one hell of an assumption (no capitalization necessary!) from someone that probably only heard this today.

Remember, all of Yamaha's SA stuff (or most of it) is concentrated on getting good SOLO performances. Most of them are monophonic. You CAN'T play them in a section. Not live, anyway. This is the first thing I've seen in a realtime keyboard that does anything about SECTION work.

As an arranger player, this technology is very promising. Few of us have two hands to spare for big wide (correct) brass voicing. Something like this, in an arranger, would be at LEAST as useful as any SA stuff.

Keep gazing into your crystal balls, Ian... But pack in trying to pass it off as FACT Once again, you show your zealotry. If Yamaha had introduced this (or the V-Piano ) you would be crowing about it's achievement...

Thanks Diki...I do have a zealous appreciation for things Yamaha....why shouldn't I...you have the same fanaticism for things Roland?

You've got to stop pointing that finger, son, or at least try and conceal the three pointing back.

Yamaha is where it's @ as far as brass goes...especially in the solo voices.

The saxes on the ARXO3 sound very weak....but at ONLY $450 it's not nearly as ridiculous as a $6000 stage piano with one sound.

I needed a good chuckle...thank you.

Ian

Au contraire, mon frére...!

You know me to be one of the most relentless critics of Roland. Where criticism is due, I give it with no regard to manufacturer. Same with Yamaha. Where it is due, I give it. Where praise is due, I give that also...

Just lately, this seems to have eluded you, though. Nothing has any value without three tuning forks on it. Sad, really, when I know that you know better. Your opinions could have some real value, were they tempered with some objectivity. But as long as you keep up this relentless 'Four legs good, two legs bad' slavish devotion, how can ANYTHING you say be taken seriously?

My opinion's about the Mega guitars and SA technology are good and well known. This, I think, makes my opinions about some of the BAD things in a Yamaha more credible, rather than if I followed your lead and simply went 'everything Yamaha sucks!'.

But feel free to destroy what credibility you have left by continuing this tirade against anything non-Yamaha. I guess it makes my job easier..

No-one has said that this is in any way a competing feature to SA2. It does something SA2 can't... Does that make Yamaha suck? Only if we follow YOUR logic...

Very cool - awesome stuff. Loved the organ better than anything.

Au contraire, son.


I have always credited Roland when they make a great product...I can't help it if they don't make them very often.

It skews things terribly, doesn't it?

Your posts always make me smile.

Ian

A great feature can be in a flawed product. Like SA voices in a toy (whoops, sorry... 'home') keyboard...

Or killer drums and piano in a very heavy keyboard!

I can't say I've EVER played the 'perfect' keyboard. You have, apparently.

The easily pleased will always be... well, easily pleased!

"Smile, though your heart is aching
Smile, even though it’s breaking
When there are clouds in the sky
you’ll get by
If you smile through your fear and sorrow
Smile and maybe tomorrow
You’ll see the sun come shining through
for you

Light up your face with gladness
Hide every trace of sadness
Although a tear may be ever so near
That’s the time you must keep on trying
Smile what’s the use of crying
You’ll find that life is still worthwhile
If you’ll just
Smile"

Can't argue with the Great Dictator, now can you?!

Just the one perfect for my needs, for the present....but, one must always be able to adapt to new situations if they arise.


I am easily pleased...and easily amused...and that's why your posts make me smile.

I love that song...I play it often...a lovely piano piece.

Do you play it as well?


Smile...mmmmmm.

Smile, though your back is aching
Smile, even though it’s breaking.

Perfect for the V-Piano...don't you think?

Thanks again.

Ian

Never smiled more than when I had my Rhodes...

This thing is 50 lbs. lighter. Should that make me smile more, or less? Hey, if I put my G70 on top of the V-Piano, it'll weigh about the same as the Rhodes did!

Ain't progress grand...

My beef is that the V-Piano doesn't have a Rhodes patch, and perhaps even a Wurli.

It makes sense not to have an organ patch as the keyboard is weighted hammer, but to leave out these important sounds, especially at that price, just doesn't make any sense.

To have to do the laptop thing just to access the other internal sounds is also not acceptable.

Maybe they'll make a Mark II model with these corrections, or if you like, additions.

Otherwise, as it is, all that adjustability will be just overkill for most piano players...and I mean the ones who also play Rhodes and Wurly as well as acoustic.

Perhaps I'm missing it's concept, but I really feel they should have provided at least these other piano types....just think how cool it would be to be able to change the tines on the Rhodes or the hammer material...

If you're going to drag that big box around, may as well make it worth it.

That's my rant....now I'll stop bugging you about it...we're off topic anyway...sorry Chas.

Ian

Well, it DOES have a 128 voice module inside (and an mp3/wave player). Perhaps we don't yet know ALL the details about how that hooks in, yet, but I imagine, if they HAVE orphaned it now, a simple OS update would solve that...

In the meantime, check out the RD700G... ARX Rhodes and Wurli, plus some high quality sampled pianos at a weight and price more to your liking... (of course it's not to your liking! No tuning forks )

Maybe you can compare the V-Piano to the TOTL Clavinovas... Heavy, expensive, and arranger sections a pale shadow of a T3

Perhaps Roland is not unique in leaving us somewhat unsatisfied at times, eh, Ian?

No I wouldn't compare the V-Piano with TOTL Clavinovas...they have more sounds, for one thing, and at least you don't need a workaround (or laptop) to access sounds.

The T3 is new...the arranger sections in the latest CVP are like the T2's...the new CVPs will be out soon enough...then you can compare if you wish.

You might want to compare the V-Piano with the Roland KR-series...you know...heavy, expensive and a pale shadow of the G-70.

They should have at least put ARX expansion slots on the V-Piano...especially since they are on the much cheaper instruments....what were they thinking?

Sometimes your points are valid, but these are not...I think we both know that the V-Piano could have been much better realized than it is at present...so close, yet so far away.

The tuning fork people would have done a much better job.


The V-Piano, a one trick pony, or more appropriately, draft horse, that could have been contender with a bit more breeding.

Bottom line... I think it could have been done better.

Think you'll change my mind?

Not a chance.

Keep your stick on the ice.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-09-2009).]

Guys Guys Guys,

I love that someone who didn't go off site at the NAMM show to the Hilton Demo Room and ACTUALLY SEE and/or TRY the V-Piano in the correct environment can say ANYTHING about this instrument with any degree of autority at all! Basing your opinion on Brand preference and or web demos in this case is a silly silly mistake....reserve your opinion until you actually sit down and PLAY the V....Then and only then come give your honest review....

I did it...TWICE... on the second journey over I actually played the V-Piano for a while...messed with the editor and the front panel.....Tried making a few differnt pianos both possible (Steinway type w/jazz voicing and Bosey type for soft concertos)and Impossible....a 9 ft Grand with 3 strings for EVERY NOTE wrapped in Silver instead of copper....now that was COOL!

It Blows away ANYTHING I have ever heard or played...plays like a dream as the new PHAIII action is "like butta"....

Who cares that it doesn't have a Clav, Wurly or Any other sound accesible from the front panel....the piano kick ass on everything out there...(digital that is) I will always have a place in my heart for a NWS Schimmel 213 (7 foot) I LOVE THAT ACOUSTIC....but I swear I came within an eyelash of making it on the V....

Nice Brass sounds Chas. I dont know if its value for money though. Thats my only reservation. Wait and see what other expansion boards come out before you imnvet amny more in the Fantom G.

From Memory you were not overly enthusiastic about the fantom keyboard and until you get excited about it , then spending more money on it just to get a few sounds that should have ben on the instrument in the first place might leave a bitter taste in your mouth.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-10-2009).]

Spalding, in my heart I know you're right.....but man-o-man, is that brass sweet. To be honest (and fair), I think that my main problem with the FantomG is that I'm not particularly WORKSTATION oriented. I'm more SYNTH oriented. Most of the features that make a WS a WS (like on-board sequencers and samplers) are wasted on me, making them overpriced synths for me. I tend to judge them based solely on their on-board sounds (unfair to the designers) and in that regard they don't fare much better than your garden-variety sound module, especially if you've got fairly sophisticated recording capabilities.

The FantomG in particular, being strong in the 'loop', 'arp', 'rhythm pattern', 'synth sound', etc. dept., is an excellent tool for certain types of modern music (but not for what I do). Although intuitive, I don't think it's very good as a 'performance' KB (as in 'live'). Some functions can only be gotten to quickly with a mouse and most 'live' functions require a heavy dose of pre-programming to function smoothly on a gig.

Does the 'Brass' board make sense? Maybe, if you've already shelled out for the board and intend to keep it (I believe it really does have some strong future potential for those willing to spend a little more money and invest lots of time learning the board in-depth). You know, in for a penny, in for a pound. Truth is, I can't justify any of it financially, working just 1 gig a week, so it's mostly a case of how much musical pleasure will I get out of it. Oh well, it's that or leave it to the grandkids. Sorry kids .

chas

I just suspect Chas that in a few months time that board will be gathering dust like the tyros was. Have you heard the Synth and brass sounds on the Korg M3 since DNc was introduced ? although you already have the PA1X , if you sold the Fantom G and bought the M3 instead you would have access to all the great new DNC sounds with the latest expansion updates (which all come free by the way ) , you would be familiar with the Korg Operating system so the learning curve (which i believe is whats putting you off the Fantom G) would be much less steep . You would still get amazing synths and very realistic brass sounds and i bet the whole transaction would cost you less than paying the extra $450 for the ARX brass sound board.

listen to this http://www.korg.co.uk/downloads/m3/audio/S010_Saxo-5-ophones_EX2.mp3

Especially this one
http://www.korg.co.uk/downloads/m3/audio/S000_Mighty_Edelweiss_EX3.mp3

and this one
http://www.korg.co.uk/downloads/m3/audio/S010_Saxo-5-ophones_EX2.mp3




[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-10-2009).]

Well, LUVINMYG70, if we are to go by your user name, you are a Roland fanboy, at least as far as the G70...

Most of us have brand preferences, in fact some people don't "buy" brands...as much as "join" them....and no doubt I'm as guilty as some, but having a "stage piano" (the V-Piano is advertised as such) with the only sound easily accessible being an "acoustic piano" (yes, I know it is variable) would be a limitation to most people, regardless of what brand's name is on their T-shirt...

Perhaps your needs preclude an easily accessible Rhodes or Wurly patch, but most stage piano players who require/use other sounds on a gig besides acoustic piano wouldn't agree with you.

I don't have a place in my heart for a NWS Schimmel 213 (7 foot) but I do have a genuine fondness for a digital stage piano with Rhodes and Wurly patches as well as a choice of several Acoustic piano sounds.

A one trick pony may work for you, but it's neigh good for me.



Ian

For boards that can’t use VSTs, or uses that don’t want to add a computer for VSTs then it probably is good value.

However a good quality laptop with VSTs will leave the G and its expansion boards in the dust, and you won’t be limited so much on the number you can use.

Interestingly most of the features showcased in the demo could quite easily be added to most arrangers without requiring much additional ROM space.

Regards

Bill

Scott Tibbs of Roland U.S. wrote and produced that song for the ARX-03 Brass demo. That is the audio version of the demo on the website. The video demo, on the other hand, sounds like the guy used a couple midi phrase tracks from the original song by Scott Tibbs. The guy at NAMM apparently had imported the midi phrase tracks into the Fantom G and played them back using the song player while playing most of the parts live along with those one or two midi phrase tracks.

All I can say is it sounded really, really, really GOOD! REALLY good..

And no offense to spalding but those korg brass demos, in my opinion, are in a league "below" the Fantom G ARX-03 brass demo.

What I'm thinking (and I could be wrong) is that Roland is using some of the same technology they used in the V-Piano for the ARX-03 brass card. Instead of "Piano" they are simply incorporating it into "Brass" type of sounds. Furthermore, if this is any indication of "crossover" functionality within the V-Piano technology i.e. *Physical Modeling* used in other instrument sound types - the floodgates could shortly fling open for Roland where Roland trumps (strong arms) the competition, along with SAV, RX, DNC, SuperSolo, and everything else with it. By that I mean, if the sound realism that has been achieved in the V-Piano by Roland could then eventually be used for any and every other type of instrument sound found on a keyboard such as Brass , Strings, Organ, Guitar, etc., etc., then it could, theoretically, leave every other sound realism platitude reached so far by other manufacturers i.e. Yammie, Korg, Kurzweil, or whoever - in the dust and frantically trying to catch back up with Roland.

Yamaha and Korg or even Ketron or Kurzweil could, in the meantime, theoretically find the elusive holy grail of sound realism technology (although Roland seemingly may already possess it, eh? ) and they could eventually surpass Roland's marvel - but may prove unattainable or an unrealistic undertaking. Although not impossible mind you, because there is ALWAYS room for improvement. And Yamaha in particular seems to be very pronounced and aggresive in the area of R&D technology advancement and involvement.

Roland seems to have just upped the bar considerably though in my opinion.

And so far, all the others can only look on in amazement from the sidelines, with their jaws, no doubt, dropping in the process. That's how I feel about it anyway.

All the best,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 02-10-2009).]

IMO to compare the Roland V piano and brass board to a Kurzweil is like comparing a Ford to a Rolls Royce, the Roland’s not even close.

As far as hardware goes Kurzweil is IMO as good as it gets, with the rest squabbling over what’s left.

As an addition to my last post, here is a VST that costs the same as the Roland card, can be set up to do what the Roland does, and then do a massive amount more.

One thing is for sure though, whatever you want is probably already out there somewhere.

Regards

Bill

Where to start... well, for one thing, I have a K2500 fully expanded, and a Triton (and several older things like DX7, Ensoniq, XPander, etc.) so I don't think ANYONE (except Ian, who is only doing it because it's COLD up there, too cold for any other sport! ) could call me a Roland 'fanboy'.

I have NO affiliation with any company (unlike Ian), and use whatever my ears hear is the best (if I can afford it). My admiration for the V-Piano, or ARX-03 brass board would be equally great if they came from Yamaha (unlike Ian).

Several people are still not QUITE getting the strength of the ARX board. For one thing, unlike SRX boards, it is an entire synth on a board. In other words, it has it's own polyphony, effects an OS. This means, unlike just adding SAMPLES to an existing board, they can also add capabilities not in the parent board's OS.

And this is where the main difference lies between SA and this thing. SA concentrates on SOLO sounds. Most of them are monophonic. You CAN'T PLAY CHORDS... And for those few sounds you can play chords in SA, it doesn't revoice them. Merely fudges with the attack samples. The ARX board does some revoicing tricks that SA has nothing like, all designed to make playing a SECTION in realtime possible. No matter your corporate allegiance, you might at least acknowledge that this technology is unique...

As to the issue of sounds... abacus, I'm afraid, coming from the perspective of someone with a Kurzweil, that even my G70 has some brass and woodwind stuff that beats the K. And the K has some stuff that beats the G70. It's more of a push than your description of overwhelming superiority. But again, that's only the opinion of someone that actually OWNS both pieces!

And the M3 demo? From listening to this, I still get the impression that Korg haven't yet fully developed the sound library to utilize the DNC capabilities they only just came out with. Even the expansion library is mostly ported over from the Oasys, which didn't have DNC either. There is a weird disconnection between some of the samples, where bends and scoops sound amazing, but don't always seem to be part of the same performance as the normal notes.

Yamaha have approached this differently, by releasing very few (comparatively) SA and SA2 sounds, but developing entire sample sets for them first, that are very consistent between the different types of nuances and inflections. It's less open (you can't edit them) and so far, no expansion library at all (we still haven't been told whether Yamaha intend to sell extra SA2 voice packs for the T3, or even if is CAPABLE of addressing the SA engine from the sample section), which, unless it is copy protected, I can't see how Yamaha could possibly profit from this VERY expensive sampling and programming project with piracy of styles and samples as rampant as it is... Time will tell, I guess.

Oh, and Mike... no there isn't ANY modeling going on here. Nothing to do with V-Piano at all. It is all still just samples. But, just like SA, it is HOW those samples are triggered that makes all the difference. But at least our palette has been improved. I think I still give the nod to Yamaha's SA2 sounds for solo realism, as scant as they are (watch out, Yamaha, Korg's system is open and up and coming, quickly!), but for section stuff in realtime (as opposed to using GIGA or a sampler and doing it part by part), as a brass player, big band enthusiast, and regular small section player, I have to say, I've never heard anything do THAT trick before...

Kudos... (tuning forks or not... )

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-10-2009).]

It does. I think it's close to criminal to release a new board and then, within a few months, release an expensive 'must have' kind of sonic enhancement for it. Although I like the idea of having an upgradeable architecture, the fact that it was available so soon after the release tells me that the technology had to have been available for inclusion within the basic instrument. It's like Yamaha putting the SA voices on an expansion board and selling it to Tyros users (although, come to think of it, that might have been cheaper than a new T2 or T3 : --ummmm, I'll have to think about that one). I guess it's the timing that makes it feel sleazy. It doesn't help that over on the Roland Clan forum you've got 'fanboys' bowing and singing Roland's praises for what some might consider a questionable marketing tactic.

Oh lordy, I'm so conflicted. Where's my checkbook .

chas

Sorry, chas, but I have to repeat... This board (just like the drum board and Rhodes board) has capabilities that the FantomG just DOES NOT HAVE. It's not just a question of they should have included these sounds (samples) in the original (even that argument is a bit weak, because more sounds=more cost - did you want to PAY more for the G?), but it is that the boards have entirely different synthesis capabilities on them to the G.

And that costs money. Lots of it. So you either have a FantomG with the ARX Drum capabilities (taken from the $2k+ TD-series modules) and the ARX Brass (with an entire synth on it) added to the basic cost of the G, probably pushing it a grand higher than it already is, or you have a more stripped down basic G, and can decide for yourself if you need the drums or brass. If you don't, you haven't payed for them!

This has IMO always been an area where Roland shows their dirty greedy side. Just enough to wet your lips with the internal presets, but if you want the good sounds you gotta buy the expansion boards. Roland has been doing this for years now. I think these new boards are nice.., but for the love of Pete.., the G costs WAY more than an M3 and several hundered more than an XS6.., and Roland b--tch slaps its Fantom suppporters with $450 sound expansion boards! At least the new G has some of the SRX patches as part of the presets though.

Diki, don't you get it? I don't WANT to hear the truth (complaining is way more fun).

chas

I think the G70 would be perfect for Chas seriously

The G has quite a large percentage of the 'best of the SRX' boards at no extra cost, and little more than a FantomX. Maybe that should be considered a 'slap in the face' of FantomX users, instead...

I can't believe the whining here. Put it this way. If Roland DIDN'T come out with any ARX boards, you would all be falling over yourselves praising them for including the SRX sounds it does... at no cost.

And if Roland had NOT included any slots for expansion, you would all be bitching about the lack of expandability!

The FantomG is what it is. Just like the MotifXS. Which, by the way, dropped IT'S expansion slot to the howls of protest by Yamaha users... no more virtual analog, no more modeling... Maybe they LISTENED to their whiners and took them to heart? And look where it got them...

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't, I guess...

But I would MUCH rather have a slot expandable synth, and pay happily for additional sounds and especially OS capabilities, than have to trade up to the NEXT model with these capabilities built-in...

No doubt there are PLENTY of Fantom users who are MORE than happy they could add newer sounds to their older WS's without buying a whole new one. Just as there will be LOADS of FantomG users in a few years happy that whatever new Roland come out with might possibly be a few hundred dollar addition to what they have, rather than a few thousand dollar trade-up...

You guys amaze me...

Next you'll be going 'why don't they just give me a free Atelier organ with my Sonic Cell? What a ripoff!'

Ever take a pre-schooler to a toy store? Same blank understanding of the value of things... 'I want it NOW...! More, more more, Mommy...!'

I can barely lift the Sonicell.

chas

yamaha have just given free updates for the XS witha tonne of new sounds , Korg have done the same for the M3. Roland are the odd ones out by charging for their expansion boards. Yes its new functionality but Korg did that with a free new OS. Whats more roland are forcing its customers to limit the sounds it can have on the keyboard by only making them available via expansion slots. It has designed obsolescents into its keyboard which is just not keeping up with the general direction that keyboards are going in terms of their expandability.

Chas if you must have the board then purchase it but you know you will regret it sooner or later .

so diki is stronger then you? :eek;

I'm just a bad person

chas

Ian,

You are assuming by my sign in name that I STILL have my G-70....nope...and that I am a Roland Fanboy....again nope....had this sign in name for a long time on this forum but mostly just lurk...FYI...I am a proud owner of boards from Nord (Nord Wave and C1 Combo Organ) Roland (RD-300SX, Juno-106, JXP-8 W/PG-1000, D-50, XP-80 VK-8, V-Synth GT, Fantom XR fully expanded w/6 SRX BOARDS and soon AX Synth) Yamaha (PSR-9000Pro and P-120, mint DX-7) as well as a Korg (Radias Rack and M1) as well as many sample libraries and softsynths, so I feel that I can appreciate the relative strengths and weaknessess of each manufacturer/instrument.

I gig 3-5 nights a week and hold down a very successful full time job and enjoy every one of my instruments for everything they bring to the table. IF they don't fit the bill for the situation I need them for...they don't get used...plain and simple.

My entire point is that you seem to be (by your several posts) state that the V-Piano is a "one trick pony" that "only appeals to a narrow segment of the market"...I can't deny that the V-Piano only does one thing...but man, you need to understand that the V does it better than anything else out there...software and hardware included.... the price is a non issue for someone that wants the BEST OF THE BEST.

One MIDI out and I have access to ANY sounds available....but my benefit will be that I am able to have the BEST of everything.... The Best Piano Action to control other sound sources and the BEST hardware piano tone EVER...and as an owner of PianoTEQ I venture to say that the V Kicks IT'S @SS too! I am in line for a V-Piano and I am selling a few instruments to get it...you know why? Because it is the best at what it does and I think I need it! I cannot deny that the V isn't for everybody, but can guarantee you that anyone who tries it in person, won't be able to deny that it takes the (both digital AND acoustic) piano sound to a whole new level.

This comes from someone who has ACTUALLY spent time playing the V...you know in front of it....touching keys....playing all the different edited piano sounds that I could make...messing with the editor...which I know I am fortunate to have done...but it drives me nuts to hear opinions from people who haven't even waited for the opportunity to try something in person and base their opinions on their fanboy stance and a few web demos....

Ian, please just take the Yamaha "Shirt" off and admit that although you can play a mean PSR-S900 but don't know the true capabilities of this revolutionary....yes I said it...Instrument. I know it's not what fills your needs best at the moment...and peace on that...I'm sure whatever Yamaha comes up with next to slightly evolve the 61 key arranger keyboard will be your sweetheart. To your hearts content I hope you enjoy it...may it make you $10 or whatever you are charging these days....

Anyways, that said, back to the topic at hand...

Diki...and all...the ARX-03 just kills anything I have ever heard and played from my old G-70 to any software emulation....why....because the ARX-03 is immediate....it is simply put, the best hardware Brass/Wind option available...yes I played the ARX-03 at great length on the NAMM booth thru great headphones...The SA engine is real...no other way to put it.

The GUI on the Fantom Board makes editing the ARX a breeze and all can say is wow....it can make an average keyboardist sound just frickin fantastic! I can only imagine what it would do in the hands of someone who actually knew what they were trying to create....I haven't ever delved deeply into the world of recreating Brass on a keyboard, for two reasons, one when the need has arisen, the players are usually there with real horns...and two, I never really felt that a keyboard brass sound could really do the Brass instruments voicings and articulations justice...and would just usually use my VK-8 to play Hammond lines instead. The ARX-03 seems to have changed the playing field...It's that good....again JMHO but I actually PLAYED it at NAMM for a while thru quality headphones and man again...no fanboy here but, way to go Roland....anyone want a fully expanded FANTOM XR?

1. One sound. Piano. No expansion slots.

2. Not realistically transportable for one person.

3. No controller facilities...no wheels, no assignable sliders etc.


Certainly serious issues for a pro player looking for a stage piano, but, obviously not enough to discourage you.

That's cool....I didn't miss those things when I first turned pro either...

There will be people like you, who might be made very happy by the V-Piano, and I wouldn't laugh at them, even though in it's present form, it is resoundingly not my sort of keyboard.

I excuse you for implying I charge around $10 a gig, Sunshine...perhaps you seem to think everyone charges by your standards?.

You might want to consult your union...I think you are being ripped off, although probably not by much.

Now, I'm sure you'll buy what ever suits you...we're all pulling for you in that respect, and perhaps Roland will fix the deficiencies and it will a much broader appeal, other than to the niche market for which it appears designed.

Ian

by its very nature it must be aimed at a very niche market. Its got one sound although it can be altered a lot but its still just a piano, weighs a tonne and cost a bomb. Even people who love the piano sound would have to think hard about this purchase ....

LuvinmyG70 had me until the '$10' remark... I still don't get why people can't distinguish between reasoned discussion and outright rudeness.

What happened..? I guess not getting whupped upside the head by teachers and parents when they were kids, perhaps they just never LEARNED the difference...

If you wouldn't say it to their face, you don't post it. It's that simple...

People routinely drop ten times the V-Piano's price on a real grand. Which, unless you spend a fortune on piano technicians, only sounds ONE way. A 'true' one trick pony.

The V-Piano, even from the demos, and especially now we have had what seems like a pretty objective review from someone that DID play it, seems capable of many VERY authentic different piano sounds. So not a one trick pony by any means... Unless, of course, you are the kind of player that doesn't distinguish between piano sounds

A piano is a piano, is a piano... Is that it, Ian? For someone to not cringe every time they play the S900's tack piano (even if they don't call it that, that's what it sounds like, IMO), I would imagine that to be the case...

Diki, you know me...I don't mind clever remarks...they always make me smile, even when they get the better of me....and, it's nice that my post may provoke enough thought to earn a response...but pure rude doesn't cut it...especially purely snotty rude.

I guess this person's estimate of their importance relative to mine ended up going to their head...all I can say is...there must have been room for it.

Too bad...he was nearly making some good points.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-11-2009).]

Correct, my friend...exactly my point.

And yes, I know the S900's piano doesn't appeal to you, but it works perfect for me...sits real nice in the mix...a great "arranger" piano, because the S900 is an arranger....not a digital piano...it makes no pretense at being something that it isn't, and it does what it was designed to do very well...it is a very popular arranger, one of Yamaha's most successful.

I love playing the S900, actually more than the T3, but less than playing a piano...and I have an 88 key weighted hammer instrument for those times when I want the real deal.

Calling the piano in the Yamaha S900 by less than complimentary terms still does nothing to change the one trick pony nature of the V-Piano...it just tells everyone how you feel about the former...and that's been common knowledge for some time.

It means nothing to those of us who are very happy with the S900, and even less to those interested in the Roland V-Piano.

Ian

I would imagine that few who use an S900, either philosophically or budgetary, have got the slightest interest in a V-Piano no matter WHAT it did!

They don't even do the same job. No OMB is going to use one of these. A top line pianist, yes. A studio pro, yes. A home pianist with the money but not enough room for a concert grand, yes. But an OMB or 'home' player (read amateur 'plonker' ) doesn't have the slightest need for this.

That doesn't mean there is NO need for it at all, just no need for an OMB...

It isn't ALWAYS just about you, Ian!

Yes it is Diki...it has to be always about me...just as you feel it is always about you.

You wouldn't recognize something in me so easily...unless you had it yourself.

How else would you know how to identify it so well?

Don't be glum, chum...being selfish, especially "healthy selfish" is a good thing.

It's also a good thing you and I aren't young enough to know everything.

T'would be boring...

People would enjoy life more if, once they got what they wanted, they could remember how much they wanted it.


Ian

Actually it's not hard to believe an arranger player could want a V-Piano...you do.

It is advertised as a "stage piano"...it makes a very poor stage piano without being versatile enough to at least include more than one sound...it isn't the dark ages where we all lugged around CP-70B's and Rhodes and Hammonds...

Why do the other stage pianos possess alternate sounds and controller abilities...and this one does not?

It's not cheaper, so why leave out these features?

If you must revisit the old days, and they make you comfortable, by all means indulge yourself in such a product.

Meanwhile, this old plonker will stick to playing a 25 lb relatively inexpensive piano that does more than one sound and does more than one trick.

Ian

'People routinely drop ten times the V-Piano's price on a real grand. Which, unless you spend a fortune on piano technicians, only sounds ONE way. A 'true' one trick pony.'

This is true dikki but most Pianos that are bought at 60 to 100 grand dont actually get played !! They are investments or displays of ostentatiousness bought for and by the very wealthy as expensive furniture. When they buy one of these pianos they do not expect it to fall invalue by 50% 3 years after buying it. The V piano most certainly will !

There are probably no more than 20 pianos that musicians actually want emulated. Very few musicians want to create a piano that has never been heard before. And the piano purists certainly dont want to create piano strings coated in silver gold or platinum !!

Surely it is obvious that this instrument has a very limited market just like the Korg Oasys has. Thats not to say it wont be bought at all , just that its appeal is very very limited.

I respect the gentleman that actually played the V piano and i wish him well with it if he in fact does purchase one . I am sure it wil satisfy whatever need he has for the V piano. But just like the Korg Oasys, there will be some purchasers getting the instrument purely on the basis that they will want to show off that they were the first to buy the latest and best roland offering only to be selling it a few months later at a hugely reduced price. Maybe you should wait a few months and pick up a bargin v piano second hand....

Sorry about your mouse, BBBB.

What we have here is two very stubborn individuals...one who is right(me) and one who is trying desperately to be more right(Diki)

The more one posts here...diverse it gets.

Ian

Well, you can say that about the large majority of arrangers, too.. especially Clavinovas and KR-series, or Wersi, etc.!

And s/h pianos will depreciate rapidly in value if the demand goes down drastically, as in a recession or depression.. It's only demand that keeps it up!

An upright is more likely to depreciate(unless it was John Lennon's)...most quality grands hold their value, or appreciate, especially the hand made ones.

The V-Piano will depreciate much like any other electronic piano.

Ian

Some day...(dreaming again!) it would be great to see the Mfg's put the high end voices in the arrangers, from the PRO workstations ( Yes, I know 'some' sounds are bettteron the arragers, but that's rare).

This board is a great exaple of what I mean.

Lee

Apologies all around for that remark....Insensitive and uncalled for...I'm passionate about everything it is that I do...especially my gear....and my soon to be gear! I gotta admit though, this disenchanting discourse...is pretty darn fun!

As they say opinions are like ars3h0les...we all have em....some just stink worse than others! Again uncalled for but totally in fun!

Seriously folks, whatever works best for you is fine by me...

I guess there's just so much speculation out there on an instrument that many haven't tried or heard in person (This includes ARX-03)...I guess I just wish that opinions could be reserved until such time as we had the chance to try these things out in person...as I have had the good fortune of doing...I'm no Roland fanboy, or Nord (although my C1 kick ass!) or Yamaha or Korg...but, I know what I like....and I like to think with the 17 years I have had as a gigging musician and the 31 years with music in general, I can spot something that rocks and share my experience with the world! And won't attack someone online again...will take some DEEEEP breaths before I post next time....

Just curious, LUVINMYG70, what do you play your Nord C1 through. I play mine through the 'tube' channel on my Traynor K4 with good results. Was just wondering what other C1 users were using. BTW, there are at least two others (me and Capt. Russ) that own and play the C1. Glad you're happy with yours (currently my favorite board since I don't own a real 'B'- I'm still looking for a 'premo' one locally at a reasonable price - for the home).

chas

BTW, what type of organ do you play? If jazz, let's exchange some tunes, if theater, nevermind .

Hey chas,

I'm a jazzer (of sorts) right now everything goes into a Mackie CFX-12 mixer that I got 2nd hand last year for a SONG!

Then into in ears...Shure E5's....

For "LESLIE" FX I use the BOSS RT-20 (they were on a blowout prices in some stores in Western Canada so I got mine cheeeap...

Pretty darn nice stereo pedal...pretty underrated too for a Leslie Sim...

I got enough stuff to haul, so an Amp right now is simply out of the question...I loved the look and sound of the KC-880 until I heard the WEIGHT......uggggh!