Hi all,
I'm very impressed with Peter Bartman's demo and other MP3 demos of Tyros3.The sound is great but when i tried Tyros3 on Tyros speakers at the Yamaha showroom,the sound is just like ordinary keyboard sound not like studio sound what i heard in the Peter Bartman's demo.
Is there any difference between live and studio sound?Is it necessary to use better speaker system to get studio quality sound during live performance?

Thanks,
Sunny

Sunny

Welcome to "HYPED" Advertisement vs Reality

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-28-2008).]

I'll say what I wrote under another topic. In my opinion I think it's just wrong for factory sponsored demos (either video or audio) to be recorded using the demoers personal settings. That's VERY misleading. Potential buyers should be able to hear the factory sounds as they are..., and not the tweeked settings of the guy/gal doing the demo.

If they want to use their own personal settings.. IT SHOULD BE NOTED..., so that the buyer can at least be made aware that the particular vid or audio demo they downloaded is using personal settings.

If the person doing the demo want's to use their own custom tweeks.., they should also include a parameter list of their tweeks (if they don't want to share.., then don't use them for promotional purposes because it's deceptive advertising)



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-28-2008).]

Man, if we aren't complaining that the Media Station demos are too awful, we're opining that the Yamaha demos are too good! Peter can't help it that someone else can't make a Tyros do what he can. What's he gonna do? Make a sucky demo so that it will sound like how you play it? ("you" in a plural, nonspecific sense)

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 11-28-2008).]

It has nothing to do with making a sucky demo. Is it asking too much of a company who is known for producing keyboards with good sounds to at least use the factory patches in a COMPANY DEMO???

People want to hear the Tyros 3..., not the sound of the Tyros 3 the way the demoer thinks it should sound. If you're showing a keyboard..., show the bloody thing.., not your version of it.

If I listen to a demo I want to hear THE KEYBOARD as it's supposed to sound programed by the company. Personally I could give two craps about the demoer's idea of how it should sound..., Peopole may not be buying a keyboard to sound like him... Why should anyone have to hear the demoers version of a patch..??? We may have differing opinions on how it should sound, but because he used his own rather than the facoty patch..., the person interested isn't given the option to hear the REAL patch itself to make a judgement...

Also..., if the keyboard sounds so great.., then why is it tweeked for the demo to begin with????? Are you implying the demoer has to tweek it as the factory sounds would produce a sucky demo...?

Look at it like this..., if the demoer has to tweek the sound of company sponsored demo for a keyboard and use their own settings..., what's that saying about the keyboard? I have a hard time accepting the Tyros 3 sounds terrible out of the box as Yamaha does a very good job at finishing those voices prior to mass productions.

If the demoer can't produce a good demo using the factory sounds..., is the problem the keyboard or the person playing it?

I have no problem with these demo specialists using personal settings, BUT if it's a company demo to showcase the instrument..., then potential buyers need to HEAR THE REAL instrument..., and not the specialists idea of how it should sound. You can't blame intereted customers for getting pissed off who watched a company sponsored demo not knowing that the material was altered to the personal specifications of the product specialists.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-28-2008).]

bait 1 (bt)
n.
1.
a. Food or other lure placed on a hook or in a trap and used in the taking of fish, birds, or other animals.
b. Something, such as a worm, used for this purpose.
2. An enticement; a temptation.
3. Archaic A stop for food or rest during a trip.
v. bait·ed, bait·ing, baits
v.tr.
1. To place a lure in (a trap) or on (a fishing hook).
2. To entice, especially by trickery or strategy.
3. To set dogs upon (a chained animal, for example) for sport.
4. To attack or torment, especially with persistent insults, criticism, or ridicule.
5. To tease.
6. To feed (an animal), especially on a journey.

............................................

#2 says it all


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-28-2008).]

If you were using the matching Yamaha speaker system for the Tyros then that is why it sounded crap, this Yamaha speaker system has always made every Tyros sound crap, and who ever let these speakers get out to market should have got a serious reprimand a long time ago.
Use a quality speaker system and you will hear the Tyros 3 sing.
Hope this helps

Bill

I'll agree with you there Bill....at least with the new Tyros 3 they should have desgned a totaly new better quality home speaker system then previous....but then again Yamaha has the StagePas series which would work great with the Tryos 3 & others.
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/products/pa_systems/stagepas300/index.html

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-28-2008).]

Many people who demo them in the store with the "Tyros" Speakers" hear what they hear. Either they like or they don't. We have a PAS set up and a Bose set up and run the PSRs and the Tyros through all of them if asked. One think I won't do is run the PSR or Tyros through anything but what it has UNLESS I am asked to switch the outputs. I don;t want them thinking what they are going to hear at home ia any different from what they are going to buy.

We can show them how to make the sound punchier or less so if they want. Now that we have the Korg its an easy comparison between the two. Hispanics prefer the Korgs....IM guessing its the Cumbia Style.

If you don't listen to the Yamaha demos on a pair of Tyros speakers, why on earth would you EXPECT them to sound the same...?

Play the T3 through the same system you listened to the demo on... and take the mastering into account. Every single thing you hear on the web, on the radio, on a CD (other than some user produced demos here and there) has been run through an EQ, a compressor and a limiter. And, I'm sorry, but the ones included in your arranger's Master Output section are TERRIBLE compared to even quite inexpensive software tools, yet alone more high-end gear.

These will impart a sheen, especially when used by those that know what they are doing, that you can't necessarily emulate live... Nor should you. There's too much compression on your stuff already, probably. Take it all off, and the darn things might actually sound LIVE for a change!

You will certainly have a better idea of whether the style and keyboard section is balanced to start off, which will ALWAYS make for an easier track to master when you finally DO get around to that (if you are recording yourself).

I'm sorry, but expecting ANYONE to post unmastered audio these days of anything at all is just not realistic. Otherwise you'll be constantly turning your computer's (or home stereo's) volume knob up and down like a madman as you go from mastered to unmastered material.

Mastering is an essential part of the audio chain these days. Neglect it at your peril!

Some of you call for "OOTB" demoing, so everyone knows what they are going to buy, and how will it sound in your hands. I disagree.

I have never ever encountered an advertisement where the product is EXACTLY what I am going to get. All ads show products at their "best", resorting in any manner of TRICKS to manage that. Did you know or even imagined that professional food stylists use HAIRSPRAY on spaghetti (after they use ordinary combs to comb it while in the plate, believe it or not), to make it look more shiny and less boring, less ordinary?

At least with the Tyros or any arranger, there is a possibility to actually make it sound like the demo, because the sounds and the effects and everything are all there... unless they used another instrument's sample, or hairspray, which I doubt. Query Peter Baartmans, or Voncken, and try to find out what they do. I remember Voncken had posted some setting he used on PSR 9000 on his website.

In addition to that, if Baartmans put out an OOTB demo, it would sound like OOTB, like everyone else, and soon his children would have to do without the Yamaha paycheck. Those guys are paid to make an instrument sound good for the customers, and that is what they do.

Now for the real joke...
There are probably some guitar ads out there, with Eric Clapton's signature. Now tell me, have you seen any guitar ads with MY name on them?. No, you haven't and you will never see one, because I can't play the guitar, can't make it sound like Eric does. And of course no buyer will want to associate himself with me, hence Eric Clapton is the preferred choice. So better look around on how to make yourself sound like Clapton, instead of asking Yamaha to pay ME to demo an arranger OOTB.

Now, look at that video and then tell me if it is false advertising or not. I also have a Hyundai, should I sue them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV29FnEBx4o

I would be more concerned about
HOW YOU PLAY....vs... HOW IT SOUNDS.

Dnj,
What is youre problem with Yamaha and the players ?

Thanks for destroing a friendly forum .
I come here since '96 ,now i am sick of al this Bu****it.

Impuls.

I don't agree...I think Donny is a great contributor to this forum.

He always keeps things interesting and entertaining.

Ian

BS is what makes the world go around... everything is not hunky dory all the time...Yammy, korg, roland, gem, ketron whats the difference?....get it out in the open honestly so we can discuss it... if you cant take honest critism on any one of these products maybe a yamaha only forum is where you should be spending your time where everyone has blinders on.

btw.... Have a wonderful Holiday Season I know I will.

Would these Yamaha forums be the same ones on which you were seeking help when you had your Tyros, 3k and S900?

Many of their members read SZ...do you think should try being nicer in case you need help again?

Same goes for Roland forums.

One should be careful not to burn bridges.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-29-2008).]

Hmmmm....
I think we can compare the different taste regarding sound streaming into
our ears as we have different opinion when we smell or taste food.

No matter who or how played, we'll experience this in a very personal way.
Either we like what we hear, or we don't.
Lucky us that we can adjust a lot by use of EQ and effects and choose between
different PA equipment to make it sund just as we like.

I find this topic similiar as when discuss religion. We can carry on discuss
it forever, but we should agree on that we won't nessesary have to come to
any common conclusion about whats the right or wrong.
Guess that's why we witness countless conflicts and wars, never ending story....

All that said, I agree that the factory demos should mirror the keyboards as
it is out of the box, and then maybe make a more in depth demo where some of
the possibilites and settings for personal satisfaction could be displyed.

Happy Playing & Listening
GJ

This in no way is a reply to you Ian because we dont speak anymore remember?...
but in general with the utmost respect for Nigel....when people discuss with an open mind its enjoyable....when people on almost every topic just continually boast how great something is, never post a dam thing anywhere for reference, and glee at others confusion, I would say that is ridiculous also. I post anywhere I like & have many friends worldwide. With the atmosphere on most forums 99% of my dealings & help given or received is via private means only. Try it sometime maybe I'll talk to you also if Im in a good mood. Get off your high horse once in a while you need to touch the ground....I dont know who your trying to impress?....certainly not me by any means.
I know this will be retaliated with one of your snippy replies but thats the norm eh?.

Have a Wonderful Holiday

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-29-2008).]

Nothing snippy, Donny, but you rarely take other people's (including your friend's) advice seriously, so I'm not surprised at your reply.

Ian

Great then we're done here...

Carry on

Sunny,

You got mail.

Hammer

Does anyone know what equalizer and compressor settings used by Yamaha demonstrators including Peter Bartsman on Tyros3?

Sunny

Sunny,
Maybe these can give you some idea, the page contains links to screen caps.


Tyros 1, 2 & 9000 pro EQ and Compressor settings from Mr. Voncken's website: http://www.michelvoncken.com/pages/downloads/eq-settings-sp500.php

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 11-30-2008).]

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 11-30-2008).]

+111111111

Thats why everyones music has a different sound. There is NO GOOD OR BAD in today's boards. One either likes it or they don't.

The better you know your board the more you can coax out of it. But you have to like it from the start regardless of what others think, feel, or hear..

Set your sights on the end user of your product and you will sleep better and save a ton of money. IF they like you music you can give it to them on a cassette tape. IF they don't, a $100,000 recording studio will make do difference.....IT's all about the song.

$2000 outboard gear will be akin to putting lipstick on a pig if they don't like the song.Focus on your target listener.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-30-2008).]

It's interesting how modest the settings that Yamaha (including Michel) use for the Ty1,2,3. EQ's are close to flat or even slightly frown face compared with some users who have chosen to use predominantly smileface and sometimes hugely so - often abetted by the desire to boost overall volume through use of the EQ page's "Total Gain Adj." control.

On Ty3 I've been able to back off to Flat EQ with compressor off- so it's now set to out of the box. (although not using MS02 speakers).
Here's a recording using SA2 voices on Ty3 (and NOT using the SA buttons or pitch wheel!) which was done using those settings.
It sounds OK in my room with my speaker set up, although whether it sounds acceptable to other listeners will depend on theirs.
http://www.box.net/shared/mhala0rn7h

John

I think what you have to realize is when Yamaha and "company" do these elaborate demos of their keyboards, their team of sound engineers and stage men are all professionals of long standing for the most part, and as such, are experts in their field and know what they're doing. They also have some of the best equipment in the known universe at which to make their keyboards sound brilliantly fabulous; including artists like Peter Baartmans with his shear brilliance on the keys themselves. So what?? Well.., if you have a similar Sound System setup as what Yamaha has when they demo a particular keyboard (in this case a Tyros3), then your Tyros3 will also sound similar in its sound output as what you would hear in the demo - in this case Peter Baartmans demo of a T3.

Those makeshift wannabe factory sound system speakers sold for the Tyros/2/3 do NOT do the Tyros3 justice no matter how you slice and dice (adjust) them. You need a "professional" set of PRO Audio speakers (and an excellent subwoofer for extended Bass, in my opinion) to really make the Tyros3 (or any other respectable keyboard) truly shine. It also helps if you, the player of the instrument, can help make it shine too. The actual keyboardist's playing ability is, in my estimation, at least 75% of the equation when it comes to making a keyboard really sparkle and shine. Of course, the sounds emanating from the keyboard itself are a big determining factor as well. You need to have a trumpet sound like a trumpet, a trombone to sound like a trombone, an AC.Piano voice to sound like a real acoustical Grand, etc. A brilliant player will be able to put those "potentially" excellent sounds to their best use though, of course.

Best,
Mike

So IAn are you saying that members will actually & intentionally go out of their way to Not help someone because they weren't nice at some point?

It is not wise to tell the man that is carrying you that he stinks.

Ian

John,
I enjoyed your music, thanks for sharing.

I've done the same, John, and this also works very well with Yamaha Stagepas 300/500 which I use on my clinics/demos.

Also sounds great on my Yamaha MS60S powered monitors that I use at home.

Nice playing, by the way, and don't you just love that Sax...ahhh, pure heaven.

Ian

One of the fastest ways to screw a good sound up is to EQ and compress it incorrectly, and how many of us consider ourselves experts in the field of sound engineering? (well, OK, how many of us actually ARE experts in that field? probably a MUCH smaller number! )

Let us not forget that in all likelihood, the sounds and styles (and DEFINITELY the samples) were developed without the mastering tools on. Switch them off, and the styles don't go all out of balance, do they? If they do, that's generally the sign of a mix done through a fair amount of compression and EQ...

The trick is to make the mix as balanced as you can at FIRST, and then put on the sheen (if you even need it) with the Finalizer tools.

Also, another point of the Finalizer Tools is, if you are playing out, to adjust for room acoustics and crowd level. Playing quietly to a few people needs a completely different set of EQ and compression (if any!) to playing loudly to a noisy room. But if you make the Finalizer tools as part of the basic sound, you have far fewer options to correct your sound.

Premium speakers are, of course, the answer... If you are playing through anything less than a well balanced, adequately powered system, you are going to end up doing some pretty drastic things to the sound to compensate... the trouble is, of course, whatever you do to one sound with a mastering EQ will affect ALL the sounds, probably to great detriment. Don't spend $3500 on a TOTL arranger, and play it through some crappy $300 monitors or a system designed for the compressed sound of either TV sound or computer sound. Neither of those have any dynamic range...

Bottom line is that these things were voiced at the factory to sound pretty good as is.. by guys with exceptional audio chops. Alter their settings at your peril. Learn what you are doing, always make recordings before and after, so you can judge what you did objectively (rather than making your mind up WHILE you are playing), and always remember that if you are comparing to a CD's sound, ask yourself do you WANT to sound like a CD?

Because the guys playing the music and mixing it did NOT hear it that way (the mastering is put on afterwards) and would not play it or mix it that way if they were playing live. If you want to sound like a real band, you have to PLAY like a real band, and mix and master like a real band...

If you want to MAKE CD's, fine, go for it, but if you are playing to people live, even yourself, give your arranger a chance to be dynamic and turn OFF the damn compressors, and flatten out the EQ's

Sorry for my late reply to this post, but I've lost internet connectivity since 27 Nov.

And now I understand my lost was even bigger than expected. I was attending a Tyros 3 demo session by Peter Baartmans in Mons, Belgium, 29 Nov.

The session lasted for about 1 hour and after having demoed the Tyros 3 using the TRS-02 speakers all I can tell you is that, through a decent set of speakers, the sound is, of course, totally different.

The speakers being used were HK Audio Actor DX with Tyros 3 being routed through a Yamaha mixer.

All I can tell you is:

1) Peter Baartmans is an amazing player and demonstrator, even if it is clear that he feels more confortable with a piano than with an arranger.

2) Tyros 3 rocks through real speakers and this includes the fact that I don't think the sound is so distant from a 'live' sound as normally reported. Of course drums and bass are not so natural as Roland, Kork or Solton, but they sound perfectly reasonable in Tyros 3 (I can't compare it now with Tyros 2 as I never heard the latest's sound through a decent pair of speakers).

3) At the end of the session, Peter was asking some questions from the audience in a very friendly atmosphere and I can confirm he is also a very nice person as well.

4) After being so overwhelmed by Tyros 3 sound and Peter's performance and considering that I couldn't have read the initial post as I had no access to the internet, I did not ask him the EQ and compressor setting he was using during the demonstration and I still regret for not asking that question.

I don't think I will have another chance in my live to ask him again, so you are free to shoot me if you wish....

In conclusion, I would recommend people to listen your choice of arrangers through good speakers, as this can make a huge difference.

Seasons Greatings to all SZoners.

Carlos.


[This message has been edited by Swissman (edited 12-09-2008).]

"If I listen to a demo I want to hear THE KEYBOARD as it's supposed to sound programed by the company"

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Who says the way the "factory" programs any keyboard is the way it is supposed to sound. When I play Tyros3 for friends or myself I have the settings set for what I think sounds best. Doesn't any performer make his instrument sound its best for his audience? I've always thought any programmable keyboard is just a blank page that the user fills in. Anything the factory sets as default is just a template or starting point. There are to many individual tastes for the players likes and dislikes, keyboard location, acoustics, sound systems ect for there to be a pre-programmed "best" setting. Maybe where Yamaha set up it's settings, what you hear is what they thought was best. Maybe not even that much thought even went into anything................
I don't think Yamaha's demo players did anything wrong by using the settings they did. They made their product sound its best. I think that's what their job is........It would be nice if they shared those settings though. It might be fun to load theirs and go further!! -charley

When was the last time you saw an advertisement and actually believed you were seeing the unvarnished truth...?

The Sham-WOW!? The Franklin Mint?

Get real, guys... You KNOW those M&M's aren't REALLY frightened to see Santa, don't you..?

I expect you are going to piss and moan when you find out that the current James Bond doesn't do all his own stunts Or maybe some of you think it's a documentary?!

Here's food for thought. If you actually DID hear the naked unvarnished arranger play (by a naked, unvarnished arranger player!) for any modern arranger, you would ALL assume that's the best it can sound. At least here, in the factory demos, you get to hear what it would sound like if you had great programming chops, great playing skills, and a really good set of ears...

Personally, I don't WANT to hear what is the most average the damn thing can sound (that's Dom's marketing strategy ). I want to hear what's the BEST it can sound. Then, it's up to ME to match it. Or even beat it. But I'm not going to buy something that sounds humdrum on the off chance I MIGHT be able to get it to sound MUCH better. I want that PROVED up front.

You want to hear what's the most average it can sound? That's up to us here, and various user demos on the web!

Hi Diki

I agree, manufactures should show off their boards the best they can, I just wish someone could convince Wersi to do the same, (Unfortunately I don’t think anyone has managed to get blood out of a stone yet) so that you didn’t need to go and try one just to see how brilliant sounding and flexible the OAS system actually is.

Regards

Bill

Bill,
YES...If Wesi would promote AND support their products here in the US like they do other places in the world...they wouls sell a lot more of them here.

Lee

OTOH, Bill, to be honest, although Baartman and Volkcen are great players, it's fairly easy to find Yamaha user demos that come close to the factory ones. So it's fairly easy to assume that, in OUR hands, it's going to sound pretty good, and there is not an insurmountable hill to climb to match the demos.

But when most of what you hear is humdrum at best from real users, and there ISN'T a great factory demo (using factory sounds), that's a warning flag IMO...

Wersi and Lionstracs need to do a better job at persuading potential buyers that the things CAN sound great OOTB. Because none of their users have done anything to persuade me, that's for sure... You see, that's the most worrying thing about the whole 'soft' arranger concept. 'Closed' arranger users have no trouble or reticence posting stuff that at least usually comes CLOSE to the factory ROM demos. But mysteriously, nothing of any impact has appeared for MS or Wersi that impresses me in the slightest from it's actual users. Are they ALL terrible musicians? Are they all terminally shy?

Or is it more likely that not one of them can make something at a professional level, either due to the problems with the arranger or it's sounds and styles? If Joe Six-pack has no problem posting a T3 demo (and making it sound good), what is the impediment to the MS or Abacus user?

I'm afraid I'm a sceptic. If you can't make a Wersi demo that impresses me on the web, I guarantee I will be no more impressed to hear it live.

I've had a few Yamahas in my day and from my experiance they never sound good right out of the box. There have been many discussions on how to "make the drums come alive" by applying the proper eq. The Tyros I had needed many adjustments. OTS voices were drowned out by too much arranger, drums too soft and so on. To me it seemed like it needed a lot of balancing and it was rushed to market too fast.

In Yamaha's defence, they give you the tools needed to make it sound good, you just need to use them.

Tom

"I expect you are going to piss and moan when you find out that the current James Bond doesn't do all his own stunts........"

I read something last week about male movie stars that do nude scenes, but have stunt doubles do the actual nudity................good golly! Tell me it ain't so ma...............-charley

If everyone loves the tweeked demo sounds made by rep's from Yamaha, shouldn't Yamaha just use them, rather than the default out of the box sounds?




------------------
Larry
The NEW SynthZone Map

I don't think there is any evidence that Yamaha are using some special magic tweaks capable of turning alleged OOTB banality into something that's "out of this world"
If you look at Michel Voncken's EQ settings they are quite modest, and are seemingly designed as genuine tweaks to give the final sheen to an otherwise "OK" setup as Diki has inferred before.

Similarly the fact that the Ty3 selectable master setups for EQ and Compressor - eg. if you are using MS02 speakers - are also very modest, suggest the same, ie. that Yamaha are not expecting to turn the sound from sow's ear (if that's what it is to some people)to silk purse just through use of their master setting tweaks.
I'm no expert in sound but I am aware of the laws of physics. Isn't it true to say that if speakers are giving inferior performance because they lack resolution you are not going to force them to change their character through modest use of EQ or even bucket loads of EQ offsets?
What you do get is a significant increase in volume - and many Ty3 users have reported back that their keyboard came alive after they turned up the total EQ adjustment, meaning they could now use 50% master volume rather than turning the knob up all the way, but this must still be a quality compromise compared with using better speakers in the first place?
My own feeling is that when Yamaha do public demos they use good quality speakers with all the amplification they need, in rooms/halls where generally the acoustic properties are no big deal, being known from experience and compensated for where necessary by standard tweaks- nothing special or magical IMO but leading to some suspicion perhaps because we don't really KNOW what they are using!
Where Yamaha make top quality recordings from line outs a lot of these potential problems are bypassed anyway.
Contrast that with a home user scenario where things can be complicated by less than adequate speakers/amplification (which can be an issue) and in the extreme, living rooms full of carpets, soft furniture, heavy curtains and so on, all working to create a challenge in getting the "best" sounds out of the keyboard.

What can be frustrating about all this is that Yamaha say Ty3 is all about the sound. Yet once again they leave it to users to occasionally find things wanting and then somehow sort out the problem for themselves.
Which then leads to various speculative debates on forums, but the trouble is such debates don't seem to help set the priorities for Companies' actions.
And yet the issues are so fundamental to getting the best potential and enjoyment from a keyboard that it does seems remiss that Yamaha have not put out their own techical views and guidance on the subject. That would take much of the speculation out of it - including mine

John





[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 12-12-2008).]

The fact is that few, if any, here at SZ are players of the caliber of Yamaha's demonstrators.

And few, if any, of us here are programmers of the caliber that Yamaha use.

And few, if any, of us here are sound engineers of the caliber that Yamaha use.

And few, if any, of us here have PA's and live sound engineers of the caliber that Yamaha use.

But, mysteriously, everybody EXPECTS to sound as good as the Yamaha demos...

What are you guys smoking?

Sometimes I have to agree with you DIKI!!!

Sometimes I have to disagree with you Diki

I'm not sure how you know that most of us don't sound as good as the demo's?

Plus I disagree with the premise that the demo's are actually great. Most of the players I've heard on this forum sound just as good, if not better than the souped up factory demo's.

------------------
Larry
The NEW SynthZone Map

[This message has been edited by lahawk (edited 12-14-2008).]

Because people are commenting that very thing, Larry.

I didn't mean MOST, just those commenting. Whether that is most or not, I don't know. Just that it IS the topic of this thread...

Why not disagree with THEM, Larry? Oh, yeah, I remember... Far more fun to disagree with me, isn't it?

HOw many people buy into advertising that uses the word "virtually"

A word which legally allows advertisers to lie with every word that follows the word "virtually".

Would you get on a plane that is advertised as "Virtually able to arrive at it's destination safely"?

Advertising == Hyperbole...painting lipstick on Pigs, Thats it's purpose.