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#247780 - 11/09/08 07:27 PM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14270
Loc: NW Florida
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Yamaha prefer to pack a LOT of info on the screen at the same time, especially the MoXS series. You'd have to have very tiny fingers to not end up pressing the wrong thing all the time, IMO! Touch screens got a pretty bad rep from when they first appeared in keyboards... they were slow to respond, unreliable, harder to read. Things have definitely improved since the Triton days! I just wish they were bigger, and could display more, and STILL have room for you fingers. That new FantomG display is lovely! Can't wait to see that on an arranger! Maybe a combination of touch screen for live use, with big enough areas for the fingers to be reliable, and then a mouse input for doing detail work, like sequencing or style edit/creation, where you want to see a LOT of things at the same time... Now THAT would be cool! As to the fanboy comments from Fran... sorry, but I think EVERY arranger has some strong points and some weak. It is up to US to make sure that flaws are not concealed in the name of one-upmanship. Roland have my thumbs up for things like the Makeup Tools and sequencer, but fall behind with things like the lack of multipads and some odd operational things (that damn ACC cutoff on Chord Type change, for one), so there is no one dominant OS, IMO.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#247798 - 11/09/08 08:25 PM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Touch screens have some inherent problems, which is why some electronics manufacturers have recently went back to buttons, menus and sub-menus. Some of this is due to the physical mechanics behind touch screen technology, which has not changed significantly over the past decade.
Similar to buttons, touch screen connections have a certain number of times that the screen button can be accessed. And, like all switches, that number depends upon how hard that area of the screen is pushed.
The biggest problem is replacement. With buttons, in most instances a single button can be replaced at a relatively low cost. Replacement of a touch screen is very costly.
I'll stick with Yamaha's buttons--they've never let me down.
Good Luck,
Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#247803 - 11/09/08 09:12 PM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
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Originally posted by Fran Carango: Seriously on a side note....How many folks still believe that the Roland operating system is NOT better than Yamaha or Korg and even Ketron....for shear ease of doing what you want to do..I believe know one does it better...
Any other views.....from someone that has experience with all.. Well why not..I'll throw my bit in... Firstly..arranger boards I have owned AND used, not just tried in the shop..... RA-50...VA76...PA1xPro...SD1+...Midjay...E-50...PA800...Tyros 1...PA2xPro...Tyros 2...G70 Okay in order of preference for JUST the operational aspects (but also including Midi aspects as well) as specified by Fran.... Korg PA series and G70/E50 dead even (they do things differently, but just as easily when you figure out how) VA76 Tyros 2 Tyros 1 SD1+ Midjay RA-50 Just my view, for what it's worth.. Dennis
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#247806 - 11/10/08 01:30 AM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Senior Member
Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
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Originally posted by chony: I have a Korg pa2x and a T3, and I prefer the T3 non-touch screen. I have to agree: on a touch screen is MUCH easier to press the wrong "button" (or area); I can't remember the times when, while renaming a style or a multipad, I pressed by mistake the "cancel" button (instead of "OK") and had to start to type the name again. And... to me multipads are a Godsend: on my PA2X Pro I have created my own multipads with sampled grooves, but even on the Tyros 2 there are multipads that are very tasty and you can always create your own. The problem is that it takes time to understand how this can be done but this means also really making the keyboard your own.
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Korg Kronos 61 and PA3X-Pro76, Roland G-70, BK7-m and Integra 7, Casio PX-5S, Fender Stratocaster with Fralin pickups, Fender Stratocaster with Kinman pickups, vintage Gibson SG standard.
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#247821 - 11/10/08 09:05 AM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Senior Member
Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4381
Loc: Norway
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Originally posted by Fran Carango: Seriously on a side note....How many folks still believe that the Roland operating system is NOT better than Yamaha or Korg and even Ketron....for shear ease of doing what you want to do..I believe know one does it better... Well, there are more userfriendly, better and "easy to work with" OS, but unfornately not on the brands who carry on develope/build arr. keyboards. I still don't understand why any of the manufacturers of todays brands don't buy, borrow or steal some of the Technics' way of do things. Composer, Panel-memory and not to forget Dynamic Accomp who was a brilliant feature that made the styles very lively by give a kind of human tuch in a different way than by use of the ordinary fills! Cheers GJ
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Cheers 🥂 GJ _______________________________________________ "Success is not counted by how high you have climbed but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)
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#247826 - 11/10/08 01:22 PM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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musicmanht.., cost isn't really the issue in terms of putting the touch screen into an arranger. Proof that cost isn't as serious of a factor is the new Korg M50. This synth/workstation has a touch screen and the unit is selling for less than the PSR-S900.., and about $100 more than the PSR-S700.
I know the M50 isn't an arranger, but if Korg can put something like this in a synth/workstation and keep the price just barely over $1,000 then the issue of cost really isn't a factor.
I don't think Yamaha has any intention of adding a touch screen to any of their arrangers.., and if they did you'd bet (based on Yamaha pricing) they'd majorly jack the price to the consumer.
Also it wasn't until the release of the Motif XS that yamaha finally got into check and added that nice color screen. Korg's been using the touch screen since the Trinity.., and carried it over to their arrangers. Roland's using it on the G-70 and the new V-Synth GT has a killer touch disply.. Roland was also using a color screen on the Fantom X when Yamaha's Motif ES still used the old mean green.
I don't see Yamaha adding touch screens to arrangers anytime soon.., and IF they did you'd find it on a Tyros replacement (which will probably translate to an additional $200-$400) to the consumer.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#247829 - 11/11/08 05:04 AM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by leeboy: The touch screen is not a ral big cost issue..I do think a touch screen is harder for a sight impared artist to use as compared with all buttons???, Maybe that's why Yamaha doesn't use them? Lee I agree that the Touch screen is not really a cost issue...but I'm sure you'll agree, as it has already been mentioned by Gary, that replacing a button or two, would be far cheaper than replacing a defective touch screen. Sure, whilst under warranty, it would not be an issue to the user, but it would certainly be a great benefit to a long term user or a second hand buyer. Yamaha has wisely kept to the buttons, making their already superior OS and user interface (in my opinion) even more enticing. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#247837 - 11/11/08 07:02 AM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Do the math guys. A Yamaha's buttons (considering Yamaha's build quality) would die long before the touch screen.
Yes.., touch screens have their (number of presses), but I can't tell you how many people I know with original Korg Trinity's using the "original touch screen" to date with no problems and have been giggin with them since day one. Same goes for the original Triton!
If I had a Yamaha arranger with a touch screen (based on Yamaha's build history).., I'd be 10 times more worried about the buttons going before the touch screen.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#247846 - 11/11/08 08:55 AM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Uhhhhh.., doesn't the MediaStation have a massive touch display compared to the other arrangers out there? (this isn't an open to bash the MS, but to point out the MS uses a pretty large touch display)
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#247849 - 11/11/08 09:44 AM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
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Originally posted by kbrkr: Whether you like them or not, touch screens are a great implementation for manufacturers because they do not require a physical implementation to trigger a feature. Meaning, the Operating system can be written with any kind of functionality AFTER the board is produced and assembled regardless of the tactile or physical buttons/knobs/sliders physically present on the board.
This is what enables a few manufacturers to deliver new features with Operating system releases.
JMTC Al Touch screen technology is the same as switched except they rely on horizontal vertical capacitance intetersections to switch a functions that can be switched with a physical switch. The N95 Phone has FAR more feature then the IPhone. They simply could not make an Iphone II out of an Iphone because it had a touch screen. ANYTHING that can be written into firmware can be switched by any switch in a particular mode. Would not mind a notebook touch screen But on a small screen its a PIA. nothing can take the place of tactile response.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4 Yamaha Motif XS8 Roland RD700 Casio PX-330 Martin DC Aura Breedlove ATlas Solo Bose MOD II PA
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#247852 - 11/11/08 01:41 PM
Re: When will Yamaha ever catch up & include a touch screen on the Arrangers?....
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14270
Loc: NW Florida
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You all are forgetting the cost to an arranger of adding buttons for every function that can easily be done with a touch screen. Take the Abacus, for instance... Absolutely bristling with buttons and sliders. Absolutely too expensive as well (and a large part of that expense is the physical controllers). Touch screens offer a way for the manufacturer to include FAR more live control than could be afforded to us at the same price if all these functions HAD to have physical buttons. Personally, I find absolutely ZERO problems with operating my Roland with the touch screen. OK, with one exception, I WOULD have preferred a different location for a couple of the screen buttons... But I would be happy for them to merely have the location changed, rather than have them changed to physical buttons. At least, with a touch screen, there exists the POSSIBILITY of the manufacturer changing the layout with an upgrade, but a physical button in the wrong place (and we have ALL bitched about that one!) cannot be corrected without buying another model. And sorry, but reports of bad buttons outnumber bad touch screen reports hundreds (probably tens of thousands, in real figures) to one... I've been stabbing at mine in the heat of playing for over three years. Not a HINT of a problem. My Triton (original one) is STILL working fine, I know guys who have used them six gigs a week for as long as they have been out, in outdoor, seaside venues. No problems. A bad button layout is just as hard to overcome as a bad screen layout and slow response (which has completely gone, nowadays). You can keep sticking to older systems as long as they keep providing them, but operational ease will suffer, or the price will go up, as manufacturers chose between buttons or no control at all. BTW, Roland have a neat system where, if you press and HOLD any physical button, the edit page for that function pops up on the screen. VERY fast, very intuitive. Others should copy...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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