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#245207 - 10/17/08 02:30 PM Arrangers vs. SMF
mc Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 870
Loc: New York
I want to start a new thread so I don't hijack the roland gw8 thread. These are MY views of this topic.

I’m a live arranger player who also used at one time many SMF, but has now turned to mostly live play 90% with the exception of some Latin SMF 10% (merengue, salsa & Bachata) only because I wish that the Yamaha s900 had more variety in bachata, merengue and salsa.

Playing over SMF’s
I find playing over midi files tends to sound a bit confusing. If you’re going to overload a midi that has already good amount of tracks, it becomes confusing. If you have to play over a midi because is almost empty, then you’re better off playing it live to get a full rich sound. If the midi is exactly the way that the song is that you changing it from the original to make it your own and might as well play it live. Two weeks ago we saw a duo playing SMF with a guitarist playing live over SMF and you lost the individual sound of the SMF and heard nothing but drums, bass and the guy’s guitar.

SMF’s same styles
I don't think that styles are exactly the same as SMF. It is very easy to download or purchase a SMF and hit that play button, then to actually learning the song and playing it live, unless you’re the creator of the SMF.

I do find that a person, not a musician that uses SMF simply because he never took the time to learn how to play an instrument is nothing more than a cheap karaoke singer. I have come across people that never learn a simple key of C. They are out playing gigs because they spent a couple of bucks on a keyboard and speakers. I find those people just in it for the money and NOT the love of making music.

My duo has moved away from SMF for the most part because all of the other duo’s trio’s out there are all playing the same SMF from one particular SMF company (Portuguese Music) and we all sound the same, there is no longer individuality.

ONCE AGAIN THESE ARE MY VIEWS


[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-17-2008).]
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#245208 - 10/17/08 04:34 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Try creating your own SMF's NOT Commercially bought ones on your arranger so you can then customize the song & leave out parts you would play with it & your Vocals, you can also use markers to make your arrangements interesting....this will alleviate what your saying above...but you have to know how to be a musician & have very good chops to do this.IMO most Styles get very very boring and "repetitive" after all they are just smf loops to a point, although I use them 50/50 in my shows but I try to mix up all types of playing as much as I can. Then again as I always say "lets Hear What You Got"
That settles all discussions.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2008).]

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#245209 - 10/17/08 09:00 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
mc Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 870
Loc: New York
I agree styles do tend to get boring quickly, especially if the keyboard company does not provide a style library after the keyboard is released.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-17-2008).]
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#245210 - 10/18/08 01:58 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I'm afraid the first post simply shows just how BAD things can get...

IF you are trying to play over SMF's that already have a lot of parts on it, it only shows that either you are too lazy, or too unknowledgeable to edit the damn things in the first place.

They are NOT karaoke audio files, that you have NO control of whatsoever. They are building blocks to whatever you WANT them to be! If there are too many tracks, you mute some! If there aren't enough, you record some more. If they address the wrong sound, you change it. If they don't go on long enough, or go on too long, you edit them...

It is only laziness that makes anyone play over an SMF that is less than perfect FOR YOU. You have simply not bothered to customize it to your requirements.

All of this refers to commercial or third party SMF's....

But now it gets interesting. What about making the SMF entirely by yourself. The ULTIMATE in originality and customization... Too much work, you say? Shame on you. But OK, let's move on...

The point I have been trying to make is that it is a piece of cake to make an SMF of the output of your arranger. Play the tune, but don't solo. Job done. But NOW, it gets interesting. For starters, your LH is now FREE (at last, thank God I'm free at last!) of the mundane chore of inputting the chords, which, unless you are either a genius at re-harmonization, or just plain bad , is going to be the same every time you play the song (at least on a section by section basis). Redundancy of 50% of your playing skills strikes me as a waste. If you have ANY skill as a REAL keyboard player, or piano chops, organ chops, etc. (all two handed skills), you should WANT to use those, shouldn't you?

So, now you just doubled what YOU can play (not the machine). What are you going to do with all that extra power...? Well, first things first. You could turn OFF some of those auto parts, and play them yourself! What, you say? You can't play them as well as the machine does? Well, I'd start practicing, if I wanted to call myself a PLAYER, not a 'faker'. Trust me, letting the style play almost everything for you is no different from karaoke, even if you ARE playing a chord. Let's face it, how hard is THAT?

But let's assume you CAN play as well as the machine (or better... no repetition, more dynamics, better voice leading, more variety). So now you can turn off several arranger parts and simply PLAY keyboards. You know, just like REAL keyboard players...! In fact, I usually try to treat my SMF's like a live band... drummer, bassist, guitarist, and little else. I have to play the piano parts, string parts, brass parts, organ parts, etc., just like I would in a real band. So, for one thing, no-one is listening to 'karaoke', that's for sure!

But now that some of the better arrangers have adopted the Marker system, the one thing that gave arrangers the edge, the ability to adjust the arrangement as you go along has largely disappeared. And the regaining of the ability to actually PLAY normally (if you learned to play normally in the first place) is MORE than worth the few other things left, IMO.

So, before you jump all over someone that primarily plays over SMF's, you first have to ask 'Do they play SMF's the way I do, download them off the net and play a wanky solo over them with no work done to the file at all?', or do they either make custom SMF's, or re-work the arranger output to be a file you can actually PLAY fully over without clashing with the accompaniment?

Because there is a HUGE difference between the two, and sadly, the fact you even can post that first post just goes to show how little you have tried to do, so far. If other's get it wrong, that's not the fault of the process, that's the fault of the PLAYERS. If you are doing a solo or a duo, and just use bass and drums and little else, how could playing it 'live' make you sound full? All you would then have is NO drums at all (if you play with a guitarist, like your example). That's a totally different act, just piano and guitar...

Sorry, but a 'live arranger player' in MY book simply means a 'one handed keyboard player, playing over repetitive short SMF's'...

Not that that is any WORSE than playing over SMF's (if you use them to their potential), but it certainly isn't any BETTER...
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#245211 - 10/18/08 04:45 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
mc Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 870
Loc: New York
Well for starters, I should have been clearer in my previous post. I have never played over SMF before. What I meant to say was is that I have heard other musicians play over SMF and they sound terrible. For me, I don't have any interest in playing over SMF, since I play 85% ethnic music. It's easier to play the arranger then SMF because not everything is available. For what I have seen and heard by others playing over SMF, they do what you have described. No editing, nothing, just playing a solo over a complete song.

The point I was trying to make that SMF’s has also introduced people that they have no business being on a stage.

Also If you feel that only real musicians play over SMF to mimic like they were in a band. That's your opinion. But us left handed SMF players know how to jam also.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-18-2008).]
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#245212 - 10/18/08 08:58 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Sorry, but a 'live arranger player' in MY book simply means a 'one handed keyboard player, playing over repetitive short SMF's'...


I hope Ian is reading this above

Diki we can do it any way we want because thats what makes it fun & unique, there is NO Right or wrong way IMO.....BUT there IS Good or Bad sounding music in the end result & thats the bottom line.

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#245213 - 10/19/08 04:14 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
I hope Ian is reading this above



Of course, Donny, I always read Diki's posts.

Everyone has their own opinion, and Diki's is as valid as the next guy's.

Personally, the "phony" starts for me when I see someone singing, and then walking away from the keyboard as it is still playing.

That's Karaoke, baby, plain and simple, and all the so called showmanship, ducky hats, top hats and smarmy charmy singing on this green earth can't hide how utterly amateurish and phony it appears, and one of the major reasons why arranger players get a bad rap.

I've also known "one-handed keyboard players" who play more with one hand than the two handed players, so I guess it's all relative.

I don't use SMF at all...if styles are SMF snippets, then maybe I do, but I still prefer to play my arrangements the way I do...with style.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245214 - 10/19/08 04:49 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
pasadoble Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 218
Loc: Portsmouth, England.UK
Well said Ian...I too see a lot of people miming to SMF's, Diki's observation that Styles are just short SMF's is one way of looking at it BUT performing with stlyes does mean you have to know the structure, keys and chords of every song you perform which means you have to be a fairly competant musician, using SMF'S means you dont have to be.

A SMF is a pre-orchestrated digtal playback of MIDI data, a Style is a basic loop of a drum, bass and additional instruments that have little meaning until the player manipulates them into a whatever he / she needs to play.

I personlly would never use SMF's as esentially its not me playing, me manipulating Styles into a well known song or instrumental is an art in itself and requires a certain amount of musicianship to do it...I like you am sticking to styles.

Rgds
Noel

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Of course, Donny, I always read Diki's posts.

Everyone has their own opinion, and Diki's is as valid as the next guy's.

Personally, the "phony" starts for me when I see someone singing, and then walking away from the keyboard as it is still playing.

That's Karaoke, baby, plain and simple, and all the so called showmanship, ducky hats, top hats and smarmy charmy singing on this green earth can't hide how utterly amateurish and phony it appears, and one of the major reasons why arranger players get a bad rap.

I've also known "one-handed keyboard players" who play more with one hand than the two handed players, so I guess it's all relative.

I don't use SMF at all...if styles are SMF snippets, then maybe I do, but I still prefer to play my arrangements the way I do...with style.

Ian


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#245215 - 10/19/08 04:49 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
pasadoble Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 218
Loc: Portsmouth, England.UK
Well said Ian...I too see a lot of people miming to SMF's, Diki's observation that Styles are just short SMF's is one way of looking at it BUT performing with stlyes does mean you have to know the structure, keys and chords of every song you perform which means you have to be a fairly competant musician, using SMF'S means you dont have to be.

A SMF is a pre-orchestrated digtal playback of MIDI data, a Style is a basic loop of a drum, bass and additional instruments that have little meaning until the player manipulates them into a whatever he / she needs to play.

I personlly would never use SMF's as esentially its not me playing, me manipulating Styles into a well known song or instrumental is an art in itself and requires a certain amount of musicianship to do it...I like you am sticking to styles.

Rgds
Noel

Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Of course, Donny, I always read Diki's posts.

Everyone has their own opinion, and Diki's is as valid as the next guy's.

Personally, the "phony" starts for me when I see someone singing, and then walking away from the keyboard as it is still playing.

That's Karaoke, baby, plain and simple, and all the so called showmanship, ducky hats, top hats and smarmy charmy singing on this green earth can't hide how utterly amateurish and phony it appears, and one of the major reasons why arranger players get a bad rap.

I've also known "one-handed keyboard players" who play more with one hand than the two handed players, so I guess it's all relative.

I don't use SMF at all...if styles are SMF snippets, then maybe I do, but I still prefer to play my arrangements the way I do...with style.

Ian


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#245216 - 10/19/08 06:57 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
My opinion

1-Do whatever makes you happy.

2-Do what it takes to make your dollars.

3-I like playing with styles --- my left hand has an instrument assigned so that I am not just triggering chords but adding another dimension to what I am playing. And I do use chord substitutions and some single leading notes with my left hand. Now there’s two hands at work.

4-Having said that I find that there are many songs that sound better with a SMF. They have become popular not just because of the melody and lyric but they also have lines that are very much a part of the song. Impossible for me to do that unless I have the music and then it would never come off right.

5-My big complaint about SMF is that you are playing with a recording, and that’s a fact, it never changes today or tomorrow. That has to effect how I sing or solo – To believe they do not have an effect on your singing or solos would be to deny the fact that a different band or musician or keyboard makes you feel different, that means I perform differently. With a live band we never played the same song in the same way. We are not without feelings and feelings are what music is about.

Enough of perfection and who is right, they all have a place, and that place is decided by the player’s needs, what they are paid to do, their insight, and their talent. As for me, I love it all, and that took me a while to admit.

Wow, that was good – So every ones is right, as it should be.

John C.

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#245217 - 10/19/08 07:19 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by bruno123:
Enough of perfection and who is right, they all have a place, and that place is decided by the player’s needs, what they are paid to do, their insight, and their talent.


Well said John...we all to do what is right for our own needs when we play.

To me the operative word is "play".

Whether we "play" over styles or SMF it is should be important that we actually "play" our keyboards, either one handed, two handed, one finger chords, fingered chords, over our own SMF or something commercial.

But we must be "playing" something, at least.

Anything else is Karaoke.

Ian
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Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245218 - 10/19/08 07:48 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Of course, Donny, I always read Diki's posts.

Everyone has their own opinion, and Diki's is as valid as the next guy's.

Personally, the "phony" starts for me when I see someone singing, and then walking away from the keyboard as it is still playing.

That's Karaoke, baby, plain and simple, and all the so called showmanship, ducky hats, top hats and smarmy charmy singing on this green earth can't hide how utterly amateurish and phony it appears, and one of the major reasons why arranger players get a bad rap.

I've also known "one-handed keyboard players" who play more with one hand than the two handed players, so I guess it's all relative.

I don't use SMF at all...if styles are SMF snippets, then maybe I do, but I still prefer to play my arrangements the way I do...with style.

Ian


I guess being just an instrumentalist you dont sing either? Let's not forget or belittle one of the greatest art forms of all our voice.I'm a Singer first, & use what ever means I need to back up my vocals. Im happy that I also have the talent to play keyboard & many instruments which helps in the backing process.
Again plain and simple ......get in the trenches, let's hear what ya got, &
I'll let my ears decide, all this talk is cheap.....

Thank you very much

Carry on

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#245219 - 10/19/08 08:06 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
I guess being just an instrumentalist you dont sing either? Let's not forget or belittle one of the greatest art forms of all our voice.I'm a Singer first, & use what ever means I need to back up my vocals. Im happy that I also have the talent to play keyboard & many instruments which helps in the backing process.



True, Donny, your voice is your main instrument, and I must say, you are a terrific singer and entertainer.

As long as you're playing your keyboard whilst you're singing, then it's not Karaoke.

Singing and walking away from the keyboard whilst it's playing a SMF, is no longer "playing". It's Karaoke

Now, you can play over SMF, MP3, WAV or naked(like you do)but once you stop actually playing, you are a Karaoke singer.

Karaoke is defined as: "Singing popular songs accompanied by a recording of an orchestra (usually in bars or nightclubs)"

If you do the above, even at only a few times throughout the performance/show, then you are, at those times, a Karaoke performer, albeit, a very good one.

Just my opinions...if you don't like them....I have others.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245220 - 10/19/08 08:33 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
So Ian you give NO credit to the musician who creates from scratch through his own talent as a player backing tracks for their vocals....either going into an audience which in itself is a pure talent, playing on top of them sometimes, or playing repetitive smf based styles. Call it what you will.....Clayderman I'm not, I cant sleep that long ...but Talent in ANY form I'm a big fan of.

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#245221 - 10/19/08 08:43 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Claiming arrangers as not being Karaoke devices is a stretch by the very definition of the word. An Arranger is a Karaoke machine by definition.
Quote:

WEBSTERS--------------------------------------
Pronunciation:
\ˌker-ē-ˈō-kē, ˌka-rē- also kə-ˈrō-kē, ˌkä-rä-ˈō-(ˌ kā\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Japanese, from kara empty + ōke, short for ōkesutora orchestra
Date:
1979

: a device that plays instrumental accompaniments for a selection of songs to which the user sings along and that records the user's singing with the music
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
kar·a·o·ke (kâr'ē-ō'kē Pronunciation Key
n.


Quote:
American Heritage Dictionary

1. A music entertainment system providing prerecorded accompaniment to popular songs that a performer sings live, usually by following the words on


People who PERFORM with keyboard arrangers do so for one reason ....... to sing with musical accompaniment. Playing is of no consequence nor does it eliminate the definition of Karaoke as I have read it.

If one did not want or need accompaniment by a "device" one would be playing a CP 300 or RD700 or Casio Previa! Many do in Piano bars.

I don;t care whether you are sitting down or standing 10 miles from the source you are singing to an arrangement......

Studio vocalists are singing to pre recorded arrangements for Gods Sake!!!

I think the problem is not so much with the word Karaoke as the culture.

The think that REALLY makes Karaoke "Karaoke" in a commercial and negative to many musicians is the voluntary and necessary handing off of the mike to any audience member without regard to their abilities,Therein IS the "entertainment" whether good or funny.

IF you play to a Drum bass part, that can be considered an "arrangement"

Quote:

the state of being arranged : order b: the act of arranging

2: something arranged: as a: a preliminary measure : preparation b: an adaptation of a musical composition by rescording c: an informal agreement or settlement especially on personal, social, or political matters

3: something made by arranging parts or things together


MY wife despises Karaoke to the point where she had to be cajoled into using a Harmonizer. (but takes no issue using tracks in many cases, because without the human voice it's no Karaoke) But I think what she really despises is a total non professional becoming the unpaid "primary entertainment" while the KDJ just spins tracks for $50+ an hour. The same issue bands have with DJs,

Evey song played live on an arranger that would require more than two hands and one player that is sung to can be considered Karaoke by definition. whether sitting down (hiding the arrangement I suppose). Or standing up away from the keyboard to interact. Live concert performers use tracks ie "a device that plays instrumental arrangements. Just because you add a live instrument does not change the game. A voice is a live instrument...........

I wonder how many gigs people here would gwt if they showed up with just a 76 key "piano" and dispensed with the "device that plays accompaniments"

Karaoke is a lot closer in definition to arrangers to a Tyros than Motif a PA2x than an M3 a G70 than a Fantom.......in fact any of the former in every case plays musical accompaniment to a singer....I suppose if you don't sing it would not be Karaoke by definition,

Karaoke is not the bad part......Joe the Plumber singing NY NY is, and what gives KAraoke a "bad name" But make no mistake I sell PA gear to one guy who has no less than 6 KAraoke gigs going at the same time. He hires K DJs for $60a night and pockets $140.

This is the real reason "musicians" don;t like Karaoke. It puts them out of business and the UNTRAINED UN TALENTED audience Karoke DJ in the game. Some are not so bad......others are laughable but that's the idea...Entertainment whether comedy or serious business, is entertainment or Karaoke would have died a long time ago.....like live cover bands today who's places are being taken up by OMBs with Arrangers.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-19-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#245222 - 10/19/08 08:53 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
So Ian you give NO credit to the musician who creates from scratch through his own talent as a player backing tracks for their vocals....either going into an audience which in itself is a pure talent, playing on top of them sometimes, or playing repetitive smf based styles


I give credit where it is due, Donny...you are a very talented performer.

I'm also going by the definition of Karaoke...it doesn't mention if the orchestral backing tracks were made by the singer or not.

If you make your own SMF, more power to you, although you have admitted to me and several others, that you use mostly edited commercial backgrounds.

It's still singing over a pre-recorded backing isn't it?

BTW, styles don't have to be repetitive, especially if you know how how to edit and assemble, and each style (at least the ones I put together) has 7 variations and each one is usually programmed over at least 8 bars to give it variety.

I rarely use unedited factory styles, except when I'm doing a demo....gotta use them then.

That being said, I see nothing wrong with someone using SMF to "play" over, lots use them, but they are usually playing the keyboard whilst they are singing...walking out into the audience with a mic and singing whilst the SMF is happily going bingity bangity behind you is not playing....not by my definition, anyway.


Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245223 - 10/19/08 09:15 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I give credit where it is due, Donny...you are a very talented performer.

I'm also going by the definition of Karaoke...it doesn't mention if the orchestral backing tracks were made by the singer or not.


That being said, I see nothing wrong with someone using SMF to "play" over, lots use them, but they are usually playing the keyboard whilst they are singing...walking out into the audience with a mic and singing whilst the SMF is happily going bingity bangity behind you is not playing....not by my definition, anyway.


Ian

What the definition does not mention does not make it any less valid. A definition is what it is, Of course one can make up your own independent definitions for any word to suit one's bias. But that's the reason for Dictionary's in the first place

All accepted and universal definitions point to Karaoke simply as rerecorded music played on a device and performed to vocally.

In that regard a Tyros, PA,G70 and any Arranger Keyboard are all Karaoke device that play back prerecorded style arrangements or SMFs to which one sings to. The addition of keys does not change the definitions as I read them.

There is nothing wrong with Karaoke. Many make a great living selling that ntertainment form. Whether musicians like it or not. Singers who's only instrument IS their voice DEPEND on devices that play pre recorded tracks if they cannot afford live players or accompany themselves,


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-19-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#245224 - 10/19/08 09:19 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
No but all accepted and universal definitions point to rerecorded music play on a device and performed to vocally.



Kinda makes me glad I'm an instrumentalist.

Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

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#245225 - 10/19/08 09:30 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
Kinda makes me glad I'm an instrumentalist.

Ian



Only because you have a distaste for the word or idea of "Karaoke"?

It is a well accepted and profitable form of entertainment just as much as comedy, and in fact can be considered comedy at times.

What I enjoy about it, it the Avg Joe Plumber who never had a chance to share what perhaps may be a great talent gets him time in to bask in the warmth of the spotlight,

Thats a GOOD thing! The bad thing is it does put OMBS and DUOS out of work. But OMBS put four piece bands out of work and they put 14 piece bands out of work,

Keyboards and computers put whole string sections and orchestras out of work in Hollywood scoring facilities. Lets not even talk about the lack of live musicians in Las Vegas Mega shows.

Arranger players who use more than the instrument they can play at one time put musicians out of work as well ya
know.........even if they don't sing.

It's all relative and based on personal definitions and bias which mean nothing to many in the long run.


The extent to which people "define" is governed exclusively by their own self-interest. I have seen precious little evidence to dispute that


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-19-2008).]
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#245226 - 10/19/08 09:45 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
ONly because you have a distaste for the word or idea of "Karaoke"?


I don't think you're that perceptive to know what I'm thinking, or that incredibly keen to glean from my words my likes and dislikes.

Distaste for Karaoke?

Not at all...everything has it's place.

Ian
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#245227 - 10/19/08 10:23 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
This morning I saw a container of chocolate pudding in my Ice Box (grin), it was sealed and nicely packaged. My thoughts traveled from packaged pudding-- to instant pudding-- to stirring that great stuff on a burner in a saucepan. You had to keep stirring and made sure it didn’t overcook. Then you got to like the pot. Ahhhhhhhh.

Tell me we have not lost something --- Yes, instant made things easier and packaged pudding made it ever so convent, but we did lose something. What that something is may be different for each one of us.

Live acoustic music – to bands with amplifiers – to lip sinking – editing film and sound tracks – to editing the qualities of a voice – to back tracks – to karaoke, and the much more. What we see and hear may not be what is.

No condemnation here, this is progress and we have been given so much, I’m thankful – but if all you can see is what we have gained and not what we have lost, I then would have to consider the mind to be closed and limited.

No all this stuff is not bad, it’s great, embrace it, but please leave room for the whole picture. The word Karoake has so many meanings to so many and those opinions are all are valid in their circle.

Me, I like it SMF – but I love to play live, it’s mostly me. I have downloaded midi files and spent a lot of time reworking them. Not bad, at least they are more of me. BUT – It took so much time away from my playing, I was beginning to forget why I bought the keyboard.

In My Humble Opinion, John C.

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#245228 - 10/19/08 10:59 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I don't think you're that perceptive to know what I'm thinking, or that incredibly keen to glean from my words my likes and dislikes.

Distaste for Karaoke?

Not at all...everything has it's place.

Ian


Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:


Personally, the "phony" starts for me when I see someone singing, and then walking away from the keyboard as it is still playing.

That's Karaoke, baby, plain and simple, and all the so called showmanship, ducky hats, top hats and smarmy charmy singing on this green earth can't hide how utterly amateurish and phony it appears, and one of the major reasons why arranger players get a bad rap.

Ian




IAN One does not need to be Kreskin or a mind reader to take from that quoted statement of your distaste being compared to Karaoke when the very definition of "Karaoke" is made clear by the very use of an Arranger as the "device" on sings to!!

IF you don;t sing you are safe I suppose from the humiliation you fear. I would conclude from your won statements without a doubt you are "Karaphobic"......

Arrangers are not getting the bad rap you fear is true....being compared to Karaoke which DOES get a bad rap is your worst nightmare. Therefore you don't get up while playing suggesting the audience is "fooled" into believing you have ten arms and 100 fingers going......

ITs a device that plays arrangements one sings to...(or plays to) Its a device that has a bad name because it replaces real musicians for the financial benefit of the OMB. and the owner of the establishment hiring them. JUST LIKE KARAOKE.

It is going to have a bad rap if you think so no matter, so get up and really be an entertainer. Involve your audience. Encourage them to sing along! Clap. BE a complete entertainer rather than a sophisticated live jukebox!!

Its about entertainment. Thats what people hire. Otherwise create a playlist on CDs or hire a DJ....

Anything else would suffice s a pianist playing on a babygrand at a cocktail party.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-19-2008).]
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#245229 - 10/19/08 11:13 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:

IAN One does not need to be Kreskin or a mind reader to take from that quoted statement of your distaste being compared to Karaoke when the very definition of "Karaoke" is made clear by the very use of an Arranger as the "device" on sings to!!

.


Sorry Kreskin...er...I mean...Kingfrog, but you still are not cluing in.

I don't dislike Kareoke...neither do I like it...it merely "exists".

The "phony" I'm referring to was plainly stated...read carefully.

And no, I don't get up while the instrument is playing...I'm too busy playing it.

Perhaps it's easier for you, Kingfrog...so hop to it.

Ian
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#245230 - 10/19/08 02:34 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Ian the purist listen to me ....
I am a singer first....& a damn good musician also......unlike you I do it all & utilize all that is available in today's world of musical technology, I can play live KB, I can compose music, I can sing to back up tracks commercial edited or originals....dont make a bit of difference to me .. I also DJ when needed to get the job done....its called Entertaining.
I call it brilliant! & proud of it.
& BTW with no offense, none of yours or anyone else's purist BS phases me in the least, I seen them all come & go, because I know what I have & it works for me ..
Now can we stop the IM better then you, I play better then you, My Kb is better then yours, I do it better then you, I know it all & you dont, pissing contest sheeeeeesh when does it end?!

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#245231 - 10/19/08 03:10 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Ian the purist listen to me ....
I am a singer first....& a damn good musician also......unlike you I do it all & utilize all that is available in today's world of musical technology, I can play live KB, I can compose music, I can sing to back up tracks commercial edited or originals....dont make a bit of difference to me .. I also DJ when needed to get the job done....its called Entertaining.
I call it brilliant! & proud of it.
& BTW with no offense, none of yours or anyone else's purist BS phases me in the least, I seen them all come & go, because I know what I have & it works for me ..
Now can we stop the IM better then you, I play better then you, My Kb is better then yours, I do it better then you, I know it all & you dont, pissing contest sheeeeeesh when does it end?!


Don't flatter yourself, Donny...no one was talking about you.

Ian
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#245232 - 10/19/08 03:16 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Ian at least your consistent

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#245233 - 10/19/08 03:21 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Ian at least your consistent


I owe it all to my parents, especially my mother and father.
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#245234 - 10/19/08 06:13 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by ianmcnll:
I owe it all to my parents, especially my mother and father.



Are you really really afraid to be deemed "phony" if you leave the keyboard and let it play on for the benefit of the audience? Look mom no hands!!! DO you think the audience is that stupid to believe you are playing all those parts? Surely not.
you would be considered a "phony" because you clearly see others in that manner. That's too bad because being glued behind a keyboard that's playing most of the parts by itself would make me as an audience member wonder if you were handicapped and could not get up and use the room to your act's benefit.
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#245235 - 10/19/08 06:21 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Besides playing the keyboard....
Taking a wireless Mic out into the audience once in a while during your act while the music is playing while your singing along with a SMF, Mp3, CD, or what ever who cares when your singing in a beautiful young lady's eyes, or making a happy senior singalong, it shows your versatility & showmanship to the audience & they love it.

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#245236 - 10/19/08 06:25 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
Are you really really afraid to be deemed "phony" if you leave the keyboard and let it play on for the benefit of the audience?


Nope. But I wouldn't do it.

It wouldn't sound very good as I don't use pre-recorded backing or SMF....somebody has to stay and direct the "band".

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-19-2008).]
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#245237 - 10/19/08 06:31 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Besides playing the keyboard....
Taking a wireless Mic out into the audience once in a while during your act while the music is playing while your singing along with a SMF, Mp3, CD, or what ever who cares when your singing in a beautiful young lady's eyes, or making a happy senior singalong, it shows your versatility & showmanship to the audience & they love it.


As long as you're not naked....
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#245238 - 10/19/08 08:29 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Jeez, guys... how about adjusting the dosage on those meds you are taking?

Look a little bloodletting about this is maybe OK from time to time, but essentially, you guys are arguing over the exact same thing! Whether the automatic accompaniment comes from tiny SMF snippets that you have to direct (but you are NOT actually playing) or from a longer SMF (that you are NOT playing) it's all basically the same thing.

I don't for one minute think that arranger mode is any more or less 'honest' than SMF mode. For me, the choice comes down to how much of what the audience hears is YOU, and how much is canned, in whatever form it IS canned.

Now, many of us grew up musically in the days where you DID have to play everything the audience heard... so you had a drummer, a bass player (or you kicked pedals) and maybe a guitarist, and then you. The luckier of you had maybe a sax player, the luckiest had a whole horn section... Placed in the role of the guy that had to play EVERYTHING other than the rhythm section (except for that lucky few), you developed technique to play as much as possible. Of course, not being octopi, you had to make compromises. But the more skilled amongst us could make enough variety that you gave the impression maybe three or four parts were going on. Multiple keyboards helped, but basically, on most pop songs, you did a piano part, maybe an organ layer with a pedal to bring it in and out, a string part (on your string machine) some brass parts, maybe a synth line or two.

You were busier than a cat on a hot tin roof, and when you pulled it off well, the crowd adored you, because not for one SECOND did they think it wasn't you, but some recording...

When was the last time you felt like that? Perhaps some of you are deluded into thinking that the audience is applauding what YOU play nowadays... Turn off the machines, play a set without them. Are they still clapping? Are they still dancing? If so, kudos... If not, perhaps it's time to examine once again your musical soul, and maybe make an effort to get back to those older, golden days...

But NOT by joining a full band (unless you are a fool, like me! ), but at least by returning to your roots, and trying to play everything you possibly can, and limiting what the machine does to basic rhythm section. Now, this doesn't mean picking one form of accompaniment over another - if you use your arranger's Piano mode, you can do some excellent trio type music, where you are still playing it all but the parts you wouldn't have played back in the day, anyway. Use your registration controls to flick back and forth between the full keyboard piano style and the LH chords, RH solo type, and now you have your horn player too (your LH is STILL adequate for the piano comp without resort to the arranger's auto stuff, isn't it?)...

Alternatively, you can either buy SMF's or prepare them yourself, strip them down to bass drums and guitar, and then play as if you were STILL in a live band. Play all the parts yourself... But, as I have said for a while, one of the primary advantages of the arranger to the skilled live player used to be that you could rearrange a song on the fly, extend it, shorten it, change it's key, change it's basic rhythm, even... The use of Markers in SMF's allow you to do all that nowadays, and still be freed from limiting what you can do with your LH due to it's need on the changes (a busy jazz or even pop tune doesn't really leave you much time for anything else).

This, for me, presents the opportunity to go back to those primary skills, and concentrate on playing as much as is humanly possible myself. And the realization (from back in the day) that if you do this well, you don't HAVE to play every lick on every sound in the original for your audience to still be entertained, and impressed with your playing. Those that are paying any attention to you know how much is you (you would be amazed at what some of them can spot!) and how much is NOT. If most of it is you, they will know (particularly if you stop playing full piano to do a sax solo, for instance. If the piano part just keeps on going, there goes your credibility... )

But, in fairness, if most of the parts that the audience hears are NOT you, whether it is SMF's or style play, they don't CARE. If they hear horn licks, and don't see you playing, they really don't give a rats arse if you are playing the chord that the horn lick is derived from They just know it ain't you.

So, guys.... give up the bickering. If you aren't playing everything you can (rather than everything you want to!), whether it's SMF's or Style play, you are all painted with the same brush....

It isn't what METHOD you use, it's how you use the method. Use it to support you the least it can, and your audience will recognize this. Let it be your master, and you are a sideman...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-19-2008).]
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#245239 - 10/19/08 09:13 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Yes I concur with Diki on this one, as well as Donny.

I used to play in a piano trio back in the day, the four and 5 piece lineups came later. So I got used to playing a whole lot of songs just using keys with a drummer and bassist.

In fact I try to stick to that as much as possible even now, so most styles I use have no keyboard in them, very little guitar (unless its a rock tune) and off we go. Same goes for the smf's I use too.

Also, and my view only, I think it makes it much more fun to play. But that's just me.

I know others like having the full brass and string sections et al, and thats cool too.

As for playing with a style or a smf, they are pretty much one and the same to me, ( albeit after the aforementioned editing)so I too, don't understand the seemingly major rift on this issue.

Dennis

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#245240 - 10/19/08 09:40 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I simply think that a lot of the tension comes from just HOW varied our skill levels are on this forum. It is NOT a 'pro' forum, it isn't an 'amateur' or 'home' keyboard player forum, it isn't for arranger only mode players, nor SMF players, or for live musicians rather than home ones.

We are ALL here. Trying to talk to each other, but often not having the slightest clue what each other means...

There is something about the arranger which defeats the humility that learning to play a traditional keyboard usually engenders. Most piano players, or fledgling keyboard players, are all TOO aware of just how much more they need to learn, of just how difficult what they are trying to do is. They get this from the unadulterated feedback they get to THEIR playing.

Sadly, the arranger, with it's 'do it all for you' approach, often tends to puff up the self-impression of skill of many that can't play their way out of a paper bag without all the style parts running But, back in the deepest recesses of their minds lurks a little voice, which can irritate the hell out of you! But POST what that voice is actually saying, and some of the more defensive can go off the deep end and attack the messenger (who's only saying what they know to be true, anyway )...

You can fool yourself into thinking that holding down a chord IS playing all those parts the audience (or even just yourself) hears, but it AIN'T. It ain't a whole LOT more than simply going karaoke. Play with a real band from time to time... Get your humility the old fashioned way Deal with musicians that WON'T wait for you if you forget to come in at the right time. Deal with musicians that look at you funny if you rush or drag your timing. Deal with musicians that will glare at you if you step on someone else's solo Learn just how far you DO have to go... (or re-acquaint yourself if you USED to know this stuff!)

Then perhaps you won't feel as obliged to attack a member here who simply 'fakes' playing a different way than YOU do...

One thing we have here is a tiny minority of members that ONLY play in live bands (and I'm not one of them!). But they still play arrangers. Now, I know about the financial aspects of using canned backing, but let's face it... are you trying to be a 'pro' arranger player, or are you just trying to be a better musician? Because if it is the latter (one would hope that the majority of us care about the latter, but who knows? ) trying to develop the skills that COULD get you some playing time with other musicians, which is the REAL place you learn and grow, should be a thing of importance.

Minimize your backing, from time to time, in whatever form it takes, and you ARE preparing yourself for that opportunity, when it comes. Subjugate your entire technique to simply working the arranger section to it's best, and I'm afraid you aren't giving yourself the right skills. They ARE skills, don't get me wrong. But they don't really help much when it's time to hit the stage with a real band...
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#245241 - 10/20/08 12:33 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
pasadoble Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 218
Loc: Portsmouth, England.UK
One thing we must not lose sight of is that the 'Arranger keyboard' is a fairly new concept as far as musical instruments go (about 20 years) SMF's have been around much longer in various guises, it requires a certain technique to play an arranger properly and yes some people find them hard to accept as a professional musical tool but is is early days yet and as time goes by the general public and snotty purist musicians will realise that there is a place for this instrument and 'yes' some of the things they hear aren't being played by the performer, the arranger is following the player pretty much the same a very good live musician would do, arranger playing is a skill in itself, I've had brilliant pianist's visit me who made my S900 sound like crap. To me there is not much difference in using live musicians or an arranger, the end product is the same...entertainment !

An 'Arranger' is just another tool to get the job done FULL STOP, it has nothing to do with not having the skill to work with real musicians, most arranger players on here have played in live bands for years, I would rather play with live musicians as I actually find the gigs a lot easier as I only have to think about playing my instrument part only! ... When I go out as a OMB I have to be all the musicians and make it sound like they are really there and all the extras that go with it like tempo's, drum fills, solo's etc.

I don't know what sort of cantankerous musicians you play with Diki but musicians I perform with are all very professional and are aware of things that happen whilst performing live and adjust accordingly without all the angry reactions your ramblings implied.

As time goes by and trends change I really don't want to hear this....................

Oh look at that keyboard player...he has to surround himself with live musicians because he hasn't the skill to use to use an arranger...!!!!

Good day gentlemen.

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#245242 - 10/20/08 03:47 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
MacAllcock Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1221
Loc: Preston, Lancashire, England
I'm with Donny all the way on this one.

I'm in a duo - keys / drums. We both do vocals because there isn't anyone else available.

We play foxtrots, waltzes etc completely live because you need to be able to extend / cut short the tune depending upon reaction.

We play modern "uptempo" pop covers by playing and singing over SMF's. The modern audience has been conditioned by disco's (and indeed karaoke) to expect something that is a very reasonable facsimilie of the original.

Therefore we could be categorised as glorified Karaoke.

We do not attempt to hide in any way the fact that we are using backing tracks; I have edited all the tracks we use to leave "space" for my keys and his drums. The track we use are a mix of commercial and homebrew tracks with a small number found on the internet (you get what you pay for, the standard of most "internet" midi files is terrible).

We consider ourselves to be entertainers. We add far more to the experience than just singing along to the backing tracks. If we ever felt we really were just Karaoke singers in smart suits we would give up altogether.

John
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#245243 - 10/20/08 03:57 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
robbiekeys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 8
Loc: san jose, ca, usa
WHO CARES SERIOUSLY THERE IS SOME GREAT KARAOKE AND SOME OK AND SOME HORRIBLE SOME WITH AUDIO TRACKS SOME WITH MIDI SMF OR STYLE FILES. GET OVER IT. THERE USED TO BE NO ROCK N ROLL OR MODERN MUSIC. And this defence has nothing to do with todays lousy song sujevt matter. Karaoke has kept alot of people havpy and some songs from being forgotten forever.

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#245244 - 10/20/08 03:57 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
[B]Jeez, guys... how about adjusting the dosage on those meds you are taking?


I don't for one minute think that arranger mode is any more or less 'honest' than SMF mode. For me, the choice comes down to how much of what the audience hears is YOU, and how much is canned, in whatever form it IS canned.


Your probably right, Diki...that's why I have a piano and occasionally do a solo gig, just to keep the chops up...and also why I jam with the guys a few times a month.

It puts things in perspective.

Now....about those meds.....NURSE!

Ian
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#245245 - 10/20/08 04:02 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
robbiekeys Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 8
Loc: san jose, ca, usa
people can be cheap unapreciative of the best musicians and never give them credit or pay them .... thats this day and age it does suck... we just have to hang in there and be creative the best we can with whatever level and amount of talents we have

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#245246 - 10/20/08 09:56 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
I defend Karaoke because it began a lurative 12 year run in a a nationally know Tribute artist show for 12 years which in turn led to many other opportunities with many producers of quality shows in professional venues with professional staff. . I retired from that 3 years ago when I got married. No more travelling. YAY!!!

Played and traveled with many different live bands. Some Acts used tracks with the bands I did not,I preferred two keyboard players, but many times We would show up at an Amphitheater and have the afternoon to rehearse six acts and an assembling of hired musicians who flew out from various parts of the country. Needless to say the track acts were less nervous then the charted acts. But the musicians were always pros who could read.

I am all about live bands, I did not do track shows except early on before I was scooped up in Las Vegas.

The point is our experiences are different. I began in Karaoke and because of Karaoke I had a long Career and been to places I never would have gone and met people I never would have met from Vegas to Branson MO to Singapore, Spent NY Eve 2000 in Japan (a $4000 gig)to sing 4 songs in a six act show)

I respect Karaoke and without it I would not be living the way I do today without debt and the most important.....I met my wife who was one of the keyboard players on one of my contracted gigs, She still plays. I just like to write and occasionally may go out with here. Although I now prefer hang out in the Music Store a few hours a day and sell dreams....

Thats why I defend Karaoke....my wife hates it for obvious reasons...


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-20-2008).]
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#245247 - 10/20/08 12:32 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I'm sorry, but SMF's have only been around since the advent of MIDI (mid eighties) and only practical for many since the Sound Canvas in the early nineties... (or MT-32 just prior)

In the meantime, home organs had auto accompaniment since the seventies. Arrangers in one form or another have been around a LONG time...
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#245248 - 10/20/08 01:25 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
What's "RIGHT" is what's right for the individual. Donny throws everything he can into his act and is successful. He's an entertainer.

I have a love-hate relationship with arrangers and generally use them only for drums, with left-handed bass, with drum breaks and other changes triggered with a 13 note foot controller.

Guess what? We BOTH eat well (too much, damn it!).

I do things my way, but realize that the arranger, used in ANY form is a compromise, at best, for me.

An arranger is my LAST CHOICE as a preformance instrument. But, I work a lot because of the flexibility it gives me.

We run the gamut here from chord holders who play no solos at all...players who use all automatic functions and play everything in "C", using a transposier, to those who mostly use MP-3, or whatever, to total purists who only use arrangers to rehearse.

The key is to choose your position and do the best you can to be satisfied with the results.

And lets work to cut people who don't do it exactly the way we do a little slack.


Russ

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#245249 - 10/20/08 01:37 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I think the point I was trying to make Russ, is that arrangers can EASILY fool a less knowledgeable player into thinking he (or she!) doesn't NEED to learn anything more...

Heck, it SOUNDS like you are playing well, doesn't it...?

Trouble is, so little of it is YOU. You don't take credit when you listen to an iPod for the music that you are listening to, but so many arranger beginners (and some who should know better!) somehow think that when they hold a C chord, and out comes a great bigband sound, that it actually IS them playing

Turn off most of the parts, take a real gander at your actual playing, then decide if learning to PLAY, or learning to control a MACHINE that is playing most of it is more important to you...

Do you want to be the driver, or do you want to be the passenger?
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#245250 - 10/20/08 03:22 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Quote:
Originally posted by captain Russ:
The key is to choose your position and do the best you can to be satisfied with the results.

And lets work to cut people who don't do it exactly the way we do a little slack.

Russ


Words of Wisdom Russ great post!!

Thanx



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------------
Donny

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#245251 - 10/20/08 05:59 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Dnj:
Words of Wisdom Russ great post!!

Thanx



Exactly...There is no law that says we all have to be "pianists"
I certainly am not. no lessons no training But I have ears. The rest I can get out of the keyboard.

If Im recodring a song and I don't have the chops to play what i hear theoretically i can just slow the tempo and play the scale or scales i want. Then again Im not a live player and only a studio rat who knows theory but did not spend hours playing Hanon..... I will play with the wife but mostly guitar. NOw SHE is a pianist with the training to sight read AND improvise. Not something you find many classically trained pianists can do. I am certainly not an elitist pianist by any stretch....


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-20-2008).]
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#245252 - 10/21/08 06:10 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
pasadoble Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 218
Loc: Portsmouth, England.UK
Diki

I though you would be on the ball when I said SMF in various guises, I was refering music sequencing in general which predates MIDI using the old CV/GATE system which goes back a lot further...Actual Arrangers as we know them today have only been around for about + / - 20 years my first dedicated arranger was a Roland Pro E which I purchased in 1989 I have played organ since 1972 and the Pro E was the first arranger I had ever encountered!
Auto Accompaniment on lower manuals of 70's organs cannot really be really be classed as an arranger until the Lowery MX1 came along in the 80's

P




Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I'm sorry, but SMF's have only been around since the advent of MIDI (mid eighties) and only practical for many since the Sound Canvas in the early nineties... (or MT-32 just prior)

In the meantime, home organs had auto accompaniment since the seventies. Arrangers in one form or another have been around a LONG time...

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#245253 - 10/21/08 06:17 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
bruno123 Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
[QUOTE]Originally posted by captain Russ:

Guess what? We BOTH eat well (too much, damn it!).

I do things my way, but realize that the arranger, used in ANY form is a compromise, at best, for me.

Russ, both of your statements are so very true, arrangers are a compromise and eating -- let's not go there. aaaaaah.

John C.

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#245254 - 10/21/08 08:17 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Arrangers are tools like a saw is used to cut wood for those who don't have teeth on the edges of their hands,,,,,and don't care to grow them.

Ever since I was 15 I would rather play music than "learn how to play" music. Would I be a better physical player with speedy chops in more than three scales? Definitely. With today's technology does it matter. not really. Transpose buttons are my friends.

Now intelligent arrangements have suddenly become my friends. I view them as tools to substitute for those I don't have in ny tool box to build the same house another can build who has all the tools...like my classically trained wife, She actually asks me how to play some improvisational scales. Of course I can only show her in CGEA+F....LOL

Forget about the black key scales, I only know the major ones there.
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#245255 - 10/21/08 02:05 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Fran Carango Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
For the confused..

A standard midi file is a sequence..but a sequence may not be a standard midi file..

SMF's began as a uniform GM map sequence..with the Roland Sound Canvas(GS) primarily leading the way (late 80's).

It is called "standard" because all products are able to use it with similar results..

The "old" days sequencing was more instrument specific..meaning it needed to be played back on the instrument used to record the data..as the early Roland recorders{data)....
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#245256 - 10/21/08 02:29 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I'm afraid that VERY few OMB's used much sequencing prior to SMF's and the Canvas, etc..

What was done with CV gates and the like was usually more of a studio tool (due to the glacial load up times they took). Back in the early eighties, you saw a lot of guys using drum machines, but sequencing was pretty rare on the gig until the late eighties/early nineties...

There were a few Oberheim DMX users, but on the whole, until the MIDI sequencers got good, it was more common to see a guy with a drum machine, and LH bassing his brains out (I was one of them!).

More of us should try this, just turn off EVERYTHING except the drums, and play like that. You learn a lot more, a lot faster (including starting to realize just how BAD arranger bass lines are - they never LEAD into a chord, they always FOLLOW them around... a huge difference!), unless you are simply trying to SOUND as if you can play, rather than actually playing!

BTW, speedy chops in more than three keys does NOT make you a better player. Understanding how to do more, with less does, IMO. And that is one of the LAST things any arranger is going to teach you!

You want to learn to be a player, and how to interact with the arranger's parts? Learn how to do it with REAL PEOPLE first, then take those skills to the arranger. Because, the other way around, the arranger isn't going to teach you a damn thing. It's just going to spoon feed you, and do it all for you.

And that, my friends, is karaoke in a nutshell...

Whether you want to admit it or not.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-21-2008).]
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#245257 - 10/21/08 03:53 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Diki all that's i great info & well taken but in teh real world no one is gonna do all that ....why? its to easy NOT to
Just like when we started years ago there was no hardly any automated anything, no DJ's,, computers, etc, etc, so pretty much if you wanted to play an instrument you had to really play & play with others which was nice I did 7pc's for 25years....
Now from that foundation the music technology world started to build up and we tried to follow along & learn it as it progressed.& the result is today there are very knowledgeable players who come from this kind of background......BUT.....younger folks who started in the last 25 years dont have that foundation & with today's technology its just easier & it makes people lazy. We Are the last generation to have the OLD pre computer & The new ways in our life time....heck I still say "VICTROLA" & my kids look at me like "Say What dad?" so my point is you can talk till the cows come home as you have done above & for the most part you are right....but let's face it, for todays musician in the real world they'll just Push a button & let the music play as they play along the easier the better sad but True .

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#245258 - 10/21/08 05:32 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
mc Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/01
Posts: 870
Loc: New York
Well this is one topic that everyone will not agree on and everyone has there views on what or who is a real musician. At this point, whether you started as a pianist or a musician that played in a band 25 years ago or your first keyboard was an arranger. It all comes down to what you do today PLAY AN ARRANGER..........

------------------


[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-21-2008).]
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#245259 - 10/21/08 08:22 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I'm afraid that VERY few OMB's used much sequencing prior to SMF's and the Canvas, etc..

What was done with CV gates and the like was usually more of a studio tool (due to the glacial load up times they took). Back in the early eighties, you saw a lot of guys using drum machines, but sequencing was pretty rare on the gig until the late eighties/early nineties...

There were a few Oberheim DMX users, but on the whole, until the MIDI sequencers got good, it was more common to see a guy with a drum machine, and LH bassing his brains out (I was one of them!).

More of us should try this, just turn off EVERYTHING except the drums, and play like that. You learn a lot more, a lot faster (including starting to realize just how BAD arranger bass lines are - they never LEAD into a chord, they always FOLLOW them around... a huge difference!), unless you are simply trying to SOUND as if you can play, rather than actually playing!

BTW, speedy chops in more than three keys does NOT make you a better player. Understanding how to do more, with less does, IMO. And that is one of the LAST things any arranger is going to teach you!

You want to learn to be a player, and how to interact with the arranger's parts? Learn how to do it with REAL PEOPLE first, then take those skills to the arranger. Because, the other way around, the arranger isn't going to teach you a damn thing. It's just going to spoon feed you, and do it all for you.

And that, my friends, is karaoke in a nutshell...

Whether you want to admit it or not.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-21-2008).]


The idea is one does not HAVE to be a player to create self satisfying (and sometimes others) music. This angers many studied musicians. My wife HATES Karaoke. She views it as a threat to her financial gain. But thats technology in general.

As an Art form it's purely choice whether to become a master pianist or a simply a piano player. SOme people don't care to become the best players, they just want to make music and thats why Arrangers are marketed to HOME users, I am a home user. I write. I don't care to learn to read anything but chords, I learned scales becasue they help when improviding but melody is intuitive for many. Just play a chord progression and some can come up with many meloldies that will fit. I want to write the best song I can. I will leave the rest to the Arranger or an Arranger.

I find myself in the "hack" category. We have a Yamaha Baby Grand here. I.m bored with it after 10 minutes, Because I cannot play well or long enough on it to really make it sing. My wife can play it for hours.

The Arrangers however inspire me to create music using what I know; Its that inspiration I am buying in an arranger.

Most very successful songwriters write some lyrics and Melody. Period. Neil Diamond, James Taylor, etc none of them can or need to arrange their music. Neither of them have mastered their instruments. They call in David Foster, Michael Omartian, Maurice white...and they in turn bring in players to flesh out the melody and create the final product. Thats how I explain it to those who believe it cheating.

Neil did not write the orchestration for Johnathan Livingston Seagul..He played the chords E A D and sang the melody....JAmes did not arrange Fire and Rain...I have no less respect for them as I do a real player like Billy Joel or Stevie Vai.

Others take pride in their playing rightly so, and spent the long tedious hours playing Hanon and scales, exercises etc. I respect them. I have worked with them and glad they can read my charts. But given a choice I would rather have a player who can hear the music and play it from the heart then someone who can sight read and needs every dynamic symbol to create a sense of living breathing music. I would rather they get off the charts and bring themselves into the mix. Thats what keyboard arrangers do. for me. They take me out and bring something else in. Sometimes I like it Sometimes I don't and redo the part.

Like sequencing it's a time saver. Like a sequencer Garbage in, garbage out. However without sequencing I would have had to play the parts using both hands take after take over and over again which over the years would have made me a far better technical player.

Keith Emerson was the best I ever heard technically. I saw him up close and personal and could not believe his chops....He almost made me quit playing all together, LOL

I guess in a nutshell I do KNOW what I don't know and cannot do but have no reason to seek it out due to the tools at hand,

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-21-2008).]
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#245260 - 10/22/08 01:22 AM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Well, all valid points... IF....

..you don't want to grow musically. I am still, every day, trying to do new things. Without enough technique, your hands dictate to you what you can and can't play (actually, they do that if you HAVE got good technique, but you get a LOT more choice in it!)

..you think you are past learning, that you don't WANT to play well. I'm sorry, but put in some real practice time, and in a few years, you can do it. Just because it might take some time doesn't mean you can't spare it...

..you think that your music couldn't get any better than it already is. I certainly don't feel that way, and I don't think you do either.

I have a really hard time dealing with the 'I'm too old to learn to play well' and 'the arranger does it better than I can right now, so I won't even TRY to get better' excuse... I'm sorry, but I can't see that as anything other than laziness. Put the time in, no matter HOW old and decrepit you think you are, and you WILL get better...

Do you WANT to get better? Again, I'm sorry, but if the answer to that is 'NO', long term enjoyment of music making will take an inevitable dive. Re-hashing the same old worn out licks (at any speed) will get stale eventually...

Most of us spend a fair bit of time just jacking around with our arrangers. Re-channel that time into productive study (your wife can probably point you towards a few exercises that will make quick improvements), and all of a sudden you will find yourself able to play those parts in realtime, and compose that way, and wonder why you took so long to get around to figuring this stuff out...

To a certain level, and no further will an arranger take you... (musically). There's a reason that songs on the radio are not made with them. REAL music, music strong enough to hold your attention after repeated listening, is NOT made up of tiny little repeated snippets, slavishly following a chord sequence around. It is an organic thing, with subtle variations all the way through (unless you are doing trance or hiphop!). The bass line leads the chords, not the other way around. There is nothing identical in the second verse from the first.

Arrangers do a very good FACSIMILE of real music. But it ISN'T real music. If it were, you'd hear it on the radio...

Sooner or later, if you want to take your music as far as it can go, you are going to have to deal with no machines, and simply play... the sooner you start, the easier it will be
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!

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#245261 - 10/22/08 07:00 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Well, all valid points... IF....

..you don't want to grow musically. I am still, every day, trying to do new things. Without enough technique, your hands dictate to you what you can and can't play (actually, they do that if you HAVE got good technique, but you get a LOT more choice in it!)

..you think you are past learning, that you don't WANT to play well. I'm sorry, but put in some real practice time, and in a few years, you can do it. Just because it might take some time doesn't mean you can't spare it...

..you think that your music couldn't get any better than it already is. I certainly don't feel that way, and I don't think you do either.

I have a really hard time dealing with the 'I'm too old to learn to play well' and 'the arranger does it better than I can right now, so I won't even TRY to get better' excuse... I'm sorry, but I can't see that as anything other than laziness. Put the time in, no matter HOW old and decrepit you think you are, and you WILL get better...

Do you WANT to get better? Again, I'm sorry, but if the answer to that is 'NO', long term enjoyment of music making will take an inevitable dive. Re-hashing the same old worn out licks (at any speed) will get stale eventually...

Most of us spend a fair bit of time just jacking around with our arrangers. Re-channel that time into productive study (your wife can probably point you towards a few exercises that will make quick improvements), and all of a sudden you will find yourself able to play those parts in realtime, and compose that way, and wonder why you took so long to get around to figuring this stuff out...

To a certain level, and no further will an arranger take you... (musically). There's a reason that songs on the radio are not made with them. REAL music, music strong enough to hold your attention after repeated listening, is NOT made up of tiny little repeated snippets, slavishly following a chord sequence around. It is an organic thing, with subtle variations all the way through (unless you are doing trance or hiphop!). The bass line leads the chords, not the other way around. There is nothing identical in the second verse from the first.

Arrangers do a very good FACSIMILE of real music. But it ISN'T real music. If it were, you'd hear it on the radio...

Sooner or later, if you want to take your music as far as it can go, you are going to have to deal with no machines, and simply play... the sooner you start, the easier it will be


YEah I bought an arranger because I AM LAZY..I don't want to play scales for the next few years just to play anything in all keys. I never did. My employment was as a Tribute artist, a performer in front of real players, My real joy is writing.
http://www.box.net/shared/af42iryv8p

I played every note in that song. No styles no arrangers. Just a workstation. That took a long time and I do this for fun not profit. I enjoy the process. The "puzzle" of writing with a theme rhyme, musical support etc. I have never sent a song to anyone but have sold CDs at the venues the Show was in.
The other acts sold CDs of them singing the songs of the Artists they were impersonating. I only sold my own songs. (IF they wanted to hear Neil, they could get the best Neil buying His CDs. LOL)

The arranger takes care of my weakest area and inspires the area I care about the most, The creation of an idea into a song that may or may not move another,

My wife earns her living as a player, She is in another world. I can gig with her, But I cannot gig alone, I never played in bars or clubs. Always theaters, Its different world for sure. I get upset and respect her (or anyone) so much because she sings her heart out to people's backs, some are listening, some are talking...Certainly not paying customers who came to see a show, all glued to the stage facing forward in seats or standing enjoying a show.

I'm retired from that after 12 years of travel and spending 3 months at a time in places like Branson and Shreveport, Atlantic City etc..... and occasionally will go out with her on a gig. But I would not want to make my living that way. She says I am spoiled. I could not agree with her more....

I would rather at this stage of life sell musical gear and dreams to those who still have them. I am thankful to have lived a part of mine for awhile.,,,even if it was in beaded shirts, Sequins and polyester,
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#245262 - 10/22/08 07:43 PM Re: Arrangers vs. SMF
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
All I'm saying is, with just a BIT of focussed practice, your NEXT tune might go down a bit quicker... which would give you even more time to work on the NEXT one.

I don't think you realize that practice isn't about scales and exercises. It's about how much more you can do AFTERWARDS.
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