Diki all that's i great info & well taken but in teh real world no one is gonna do all that ....why? its to easy NOT to
Just like when we started years ago there was no hardly any automated anything, no DJ's,, computers, etc, etc, so pretty much if you wanted to play an instrument you had to really play & play with others which was nice I did 7pc's for 25years....
Now from that foundation the music technology world started to build up and we tried to follow along & learn it as it progressed.& the result is today there are very knowledgeable players who come from this kind of background......BUT.....younger folks who started in the last 25 years dont have that foundation & with today's technology its just easier & it makes people lazy. We Are the last generation to have the OLD pre computer & The new ways in our life time....heck I still say "VICTROLA" & my kids look at me like "Say What dad?" so my point is you can talk till the cows come home as you have done above & for the most part you are right....but let's face it, for todays musician in the real world they'll just Push a button & let the music play as they play along the easier the better sad but True .

Well this is one topic that everyone will not agree on and everyone has there views on what or who is a real musician. At this point, whether you started as a pianist or a musician that played in a band 25 years ago or your first keyboard was an arranger. It all comes down to what you do today PLAY AN ARRANGER..........

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[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-21-2008).]

The idea is one does not HAVE to be a player to create self satisfying (and sometimes others) music. This angers many studied musicians. My wife HATES Karaoke. She views it as a threat to her financial gain. But thats technology in general.

As an Art form it's purely choice whether to become a master pianist or a simply a piano player. SOme people don't care to become the best players, they just want to make music and thats why Arrangers are marketed to HOME users, I am a home user. I write. I don't care to learn to read anything but chords, I learned scales becasue they help when improviding but melody is intuitive for many. Just play a chord progression and some can come up with many meloldies that will fit. I want to write the best song I can. I will leave the rest to the Arranger or an Arranger.

I find myself in the "hack" category. We have a Yamaha Baby Grand here. I.m bored with it after 10 minutes, Because I cannot play well or long enough on it to really make it sing. My wife can play it for hours.

The Arrangers however inspire me to create music using what I know; Its that inspiration I am buying in an arranger.

Most very successful songwriters write some lyrics and Melody. Period. Neil Diamond, James Taylor, etc none of them can or need to arrange their music. Neither of them have mastered their instruments. They call in David Foster, Michael Omartian, Maurice white...and they in turn bring in players to flesh out the melody and create the final product. Thats how I explain it to those who believe it cheating.

Neil did not write the orchestration for Johnathan Livingston Seagul..He played the chords E A D and sang the melody....JAmes did not arrange Fire and Rain...I have no less respect for them as I do a real player like Billy Joel or Stevie Vai.

Others take pride in their playing rightly so, and spent the long tedious hours playing Hanon and scales, exercises etc. I respect them. I have worked with them and glad they can read my charts. But given a choice I would rather have a player who can hear the music and play it from the heart then someone who can sight read and needs every dynamic symbol to create a sense of living breathing music. I would rather they get off the charts and bring themselves into the mix. Thats what keyboard arrangers do. for me. They take me out and bring something else in. Sometimes I like it Sometimes I don't and redo the part.

Like sequencing it's a time saver. Like a sequencer Garbage in, garbage out. However without sequencing I would have had to play the parts using both hands take after take over and over again which over the years would have made me a far better technical player.

Keith Emerson was the best I ever heard technically. I saw him up close and personal and could not believe his chops....He almost made me quit playing all together, LOL

I guess in a nutshell I do KNOW what I don't know and cannot do but have no reason to seek it out due to the tools at hand,

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-21-2008).]

Well, all valid points... IF....

..you don't want to grow musically. I am still, every day, trying to do new things. Without enough technique, your hands dictate to you what you can and can't play (actually, they do that if you HAVE got good technique, but you get a LOT more choice in it!)

..you think you are past learning, that you don't WANT to play well. I'm sorry, but put in some real practice time, and in a few years, you can do it. Just because it might take some time doesn't mean you can't spare it...

..you think that your music couldn't get any better than it already is. I certainly don't feel that way, and I don't think you do either.

I have a really hard time dealing with the 'I'm too old to learn to play well' and 'the arranger does it better than I can right now, so I won't even TRY to get better' excuse... I'm sorry, but I can't see that as anything other than laziness. Put the time in, no matter HOW old and decrepit you think you are, and you WILL get better...

Do you WANT to get better? Again, I'm sorry, but if the answer to that is 'NO', long term enjoyment of music making will take an inevitable dive. Re-hashing the same old worn out licks (at any speed) will get stale eventually...

Most of us spend a fair bit of time just jacking around with our arrangers. Re-channel that time into productive study (your wife can probably point you towards a few exercises that will make quick improvements), and all of a sudden you will find yourself able to play those parts in realtime, and compose that way, and wonder why you took so long to get around to figuring this stuff out...

To a certain level, and no further will an arranger take you... (musically). There's a reason that songs on the radio are not made with them. REAL music, music strong enough to hold your attention after repeated listening, is NOT made up of tiny little repeated snippets, slavishly following a chord sequence around. It is an organic thing, with subtle variations all the way through (unless you are doing trance or hiphop!). The bass line leads the chords, not the other way around. There is nothing identical in the second verse from the first.

Arrangers do a very good FACSIMILE of real music. But it ISN'T real music. If it were, you'd hear it on the radio...

Sooner or later, if you want to take your music as far as it can go, you are going to have to deal with no machines, and simply play... the sooner you start, the easier it will be

YEah I bought an arranger because I AM LAZY..I don't want to play scales for the next few years just to play anything in all keys. I never did. My employment was as a Tribute artist, a performer in front of real players, My real joy is writing.
http://www.box.net/shared/af42iryv8p

I played every note in that song. No styles no arrangers. Just a workstation. That took a long time and I do this for fun not profit. I enjoy the process. The "puzzle" of writing with a theme rhyme, musical support etc. I have never sent a song to anyone but have sold CDs at the venues the Show was in.
The other acts sold CDs of them singing the songs of the Artists they were impersonating. I only sold my own songs. (IF they wanted to hear Neil, they could get the best Neil buying His CDs. LOL)

The arranger takes care of my weakest area and inspires the area I care about the most, The creation of an idea into a song that may or may not move another,

My wife earns her living as a player, She is in another world. I can gig with her, But I cannot gig alone, I never played in bars or clubs. Always theaters, Its different world for sure. I get upset and respect her (or anyone) so much because she sings her heart out to people's backs, some are listening, some are talking...Certainly not paying customers who came to see a show, all glued to the stage facing forward in seats or standing enjoying a show.

I'm retired from that after 12 years of travel and spending 3 months at a time in places like Branson and Shreveport, Atlantic City etc..... and occasionally will go out with her on a gig. But I would not want to make my living that way. She says I am spoiled. I could not agree with her more....

I would rather at this stage of life sell musical gear and dreams to those who still have them. I am thankful to have lived a part of mine for awhile.,,,even if it was in beaded shirts, Sequins and polyester,

All I'm saying is, with just a BIT of focussed practice, your NEXT tune might go down a bit quicker... which would give you even more time to work on the NEXT one.

I don't think you realize that practice isn't about scales and exercises. It's about how much more you can do AFTERWARDS.