Well said John...we all to do what is right for our own needs when we play.

To me the operative word is "play".

Whether we "play" over styles or SMF it is should be important that we actually "play" our keyboards, either one handed, two handed, one finger chords, fingered chords, over our own SMF or something commercial.

But we must be "playing" something, at least.

Anything else is Karaoke.

Ian

I guess being just an instrumentalist you dont sing either? Let's not forget or belittle one of the greatest art forms of all our voice.I'm a Singer first, & use what ever means I need to back up my vocals. Im happy that I also have the talent to play keyboard & many instruments which helps in the backing process.
Again plain and simple ......get in the trenches, let's hear what ya got, &
I'll let my ears decide, all this talk is cheap.....

Thank you very much

Carry on

True, Donny, your voice is your main instrument, and I must say, you are a terrific singer and entertainer.

As long as you're playing your keyboard whilst you're singing, then it's not Karaoke.

Singing and walking away from the keyboard whilst it's playing a SMF, is no longer "playing". It's Karaoke

Now, you can play over SMF, MP3, WAV or naked(like you do)but once you stop actually playing, you are a Karaoke singer.

Karaoke is defined as: "Singing popular songs accompanied by a recording of an orchestra (usually in bars or nightclubs)"

If you do the above, even at only a few times throughout the performance/show, then you are, at those times, a Karaoke performer, albeit, a very good one.

Just my opinions...if you don't like them....I have others.

Ian

So Ian you give NO credit to the musician who creates from scratch through his own talent as a player backing tracks for their vocals....either going into an audience which in itself is a pure talent, playing on top of them sometimes, or playing repetitive smf based styles. Call it what you will.....Clayderman I'm not, I cant sleep that long ...but Talent in ANY form I'm a big fan of.

Claiming arrangers as not being Karaoke devices is a stretch by the very definition of the word. An Arranger is a Karaoke machine by definition.




People who PERFORM with keyboard arrangers do so for one reason ....... to sing with musical accompaniment. Playing is of no consequence nor does it eliminate the definition of Karaoke as I have read it.

If one did not want or need accompaniment by a "device" one would be playing a CP 300 or RD700 or Casio Previa! Many do in Piano bars.

I don;t care whether you are sitting down or standing 10 miles from the source you are singing to an arrangement......

Studio vocalists are singing to pre recorded arrangements for Gods Sake!!!

I think the problem is not so much with the word Karaoke as the culture.

The think that REALLY makes Karaoke "Karaoke" in a commercial and negative to many musicians is the voluntary and necessary handing off of the mike to any audience member without regard to their abilities,Therein IS the "entertainment" whether good or funny.

IF you play to a Drum bass part, that can be considered an "arrangement"



MY wife despises Karaoke to the point where she had to be cajoled into using a Harmonizer. (but takes no issue using tracks in many cases, because without the human voice it's no Karaoke) But I think what she really despises is a total non professional becoming the unpaid "primary entertainment" while the KDJ just spins tracks for $50+ an hour. The same issue bands have with DJs,

Evey song played live on an arranger that would require more than two hands and one player that is sung to can be considered Karaoke by definition. whether sitting down (hiding the arrangement I suppose). Or standing up away from the keyboard to interact. Live concert performers use tracks ie "a device that plays instrumental arrangements. Just because you add a live instrument does not change the game. A voice is a live instrument...........

I wonder how many gigs people here would gwt if they showed up with just a 76 key "piano" and dispensed with the "device that plays accompaniments"

Karaoke is a lot closer in definition to arrangers to a Tyros than Motif a PA2x than an M3 a G70 than a Fantom.......in fact any of the former in every case plays musical accompaniment to a singer....I suppose if you don't sing it would not be Karaoke by definition,

Karaoke is not the bad part......Joe the Plumber singing NY NY is, and what gives KAraoke a "bad name" But make no mistake I sell PA gear to one guy who has no less than 6 KAraoke gigs going at the same time. He hires K DJs for $60a night and pockets $140.

This is the real reason "musicians" don;t like Karaoke. It puts them out of business and the UNTRAINED UN TALENTED audience Karoke DJ in the game. Some are not so bad......others are laughable but that's the idea...Entertainment whether comedy or serious business, is entertainment or Karaoke would have died a long time ago.....like live cover bands today who's places are being taken up by OMBs with Arrangers.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-19-2008).]

I give credit where it is due, Donny...you are a very talented performer.

I'm also going by the definition of Karaoke...it doesn't mention if the orchestral backing tracks were made by the singer or not.

If you make your own SMF, more power to you, although you have admitted to me and several others, that you use mostly edited commercial backgrounds.

It's still singing over a pre-recorded backing isn't it?

BTW, styles don't have to be repetitive, especially if you know how how to edit and assemble, and each style (at least the ones I put together) has 7 variations and each one is usually programmed over at least 8 bars to give it variety.

I rarely use unedited factory styles, except when I'm doing a demo....gotta use them then.

That being said, I see nothing wrong with someone using SMF to "play" over, lots use them, but they are usually playing the keyboard whilst they are singing...walking out into the audience with a mic and singing whilst the SMF is happily going bingity bangity behind you is not playing....not by my definition, anyway.


Ian

What the definition does not mention does not make it any less valid. A definition is what it is, Of course one can make up your own independent definitions for any word to suit one's bias. But that's the reason for Dictionary's in the first place

All accepted and universal definitions point to Karaoke simply as rerecorded music played on a device and performed to vocally.

In that regard a Tyros, PA,G70 and any Arranger Keyboard are all Karaoke device that play back prerecorded style arrangements or SMFs to which one sings to. The addition of keys does not change the definitions as I read them.

There is nothing wrong with Karaoke. Many make a great living selling that ntertainment form. Whether musicians like it or not. Singers who's only instrument IS their voice DEPEND on devices that play pre recorded tracks if they cannot afford live players or accompany themselves,


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-19-2008).]

Kinda makes me glad I'm an instrumentalist.

Ian

Only because you have a distaste for the word or idea of "Karaoke"?

It is a well accepted and profitable form of entertainment just as much as comedy, and in fact can be considered comedy at times.

What I enjoy about it, it the Avg Joe Plumber who never had a chance to share what perhaps may be a great talent gets him time in to bask in the warmth of the spotlight,

Thats a GOOD thing! The bad thing is it does put OMBS and DUOS out of work. But OMBS put four piece bands out of work and they put 14 piece bands out of work,

Keyboards and computers put whole string sections and orchestras out of work in Hollywood scoring facilities. Lets not even talk about the lack of live musicians in Las Vegas Mega shows.

Arranger players who use more than the instrument they can play at one time put musicians out of work as well ya
know.........even if they don't sing.

It's all relative and based on personal definitions and bias which mean nothing to many in the long run.


The extent to which people "define" is governed exclusively by their own self-interest. I have seen precious little evidence to dispute that


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-19-2008).]

I don't think you're that perceptive to know what I'm thinking, or that incredibly keen to glean from my words my likes and dislikes.

Distaste for Karaoke?

Not at all...everything has it's place.

Ian