I want to start a new thread so I don't hijack the roland gw8 thread. These are MY views of this topic.

I’m a live arranger player who also used at one time many SMF, but has now turned to mostly live play 90% with the exception of some Latin SMF 10% (merengue, salsa & Bachata) only because I wish that the Yamaha s900 had more variety in bachata, merengue and salsa.

Playing over SMF’s
I find playing over midi files tends to sound a bit confusing. If you’re going to overload a midi that has already good amount of tracks, it becomes confusing. If you have to play over a midi because is almost empty, then you’re better off playing it live to get a full rich sound. If the midi is exactly the way that the song is that you changing it from the original to make it your own and might as well play it live. Two weeks ago we saw a duo playing SMF with a guitarist playing live over SMF and you lost the individual sound of the SMF and heard nothing but drums, bass and the guy’s guitar.

SMF’s same styles
I don't think that styles are exactly the same as SMF. It is very easy to download or purchase a SMF and hit that play button, then to actually learning the song and playing it live, unless you’re the creator of the SMF.

I do find that a person, not a musician that uses SMF simply because he never took the time to learn how to play an instrument is nothing more than a cheap karaoke singer. I have come across people that never learn a simple key of C. They are out playing gigs because they spent a couple of bucks on a keyboard and speakers. I find those people just in it for the money and NOT the love of making music.

My duo has moved away from SMF for the most part because all of the other duo’s trio’s out there are all playing the same SMF from one particular SMF company (Portuguese Music) and we all sound the same, there is no longer individuality.

ONCE AGAIN THESE ARE MY VIEWS


[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-17-2008).]

Try creating your own SMF's NOT Commercially bought ones on your arranger so you can then customize the song & leave out parts you would play with it & your Vocals, you can also use markers to make your arrangements interesting....this will alleviate what your saying above...but you have to know how to be a musician & have very good chops to do this.IMO most Styles get very very boring and "repetitive" after all they are just smf loops to a point, although I use them 50/50 in my shows but I try to mix up all types of playing as much as I can. Then again as I always say "lets Hear What You Got"
That settles all discussions.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-17-2008).]

I agree styles do tend to get boring quickly, especially if the keyboard company does not provide a style library after the keyboard is released.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-17-2008).]

I'm afraid the first post simply shows just how BAD things can get...

IF you are trying to play over SMF's that already have a lot of parts on it, it only shows that either you are too lazy, or too unknowledgeable to edit the damn things in the first place.

They are NOT karaoke audio files, that you have NO control of whatsoever. They are building blocks to whatever you WANT them to be! If there are too many tracks, you mute some! If there aren't enough, you record some more. If they address the wrong sound, you change it. If they don't go on long enough, or go on too long, you edit them...

It is only laziness that makes anyone play over an SMF that is less than perfect FOR YOU. You have simply not bothered to customize it to your requirements.

All of this refers to commercial or third party SMF's....

But now it gets interesting. What about making the SMF entirely by yourself. The ULTIMATE in originality and customization... Too much work, you say? Shame on you. But OK, let's move on...

The point I have been trying to make is that it is a piece of cake to make an SMF of the output of your arranger. Play the tune, but don't solo. Job done. But NOW, it gets interesting. For starters, your LH is now FREE (at last, thank God I'm free at last!) of the mundane chore of inputting the chords, which, unless you are either a genius at re-harmonization, or just plain bad , is going to be the same every time you play the song (at least on a section by section basis). Redundancy of 50% of your playing skills strikes me as a waste. If you have ANY skill as a REAL keyboard player, or piano chops, organ chops, etc. (all two handed skills), you should WANT to use those, shouldn't you?

So, now you just doubled what YOU can play (not the machine). What are you going to do with all that extra power...? Well, first things first. You could turn OFF some of those auto parts, and play them yourself! What, you say? You can't play them as well as the machine does? Well, I'd start practicing, if I wanted to call myself a PLAYER, not a 'faker'. Trust me, letting the style play almost everything for you is no different from karaoke, even if you ARE playing a chord. Let's face it, how hard is THAT?

But let's assume you CAN play as well as the machine (or better... no repetition, more dynamics, better voice leading, more variety). So now you can turn off several arranger parts and simply PLAY keyboards. You know, just like REAL keyboard players...! In fact, I usually try to treat my SMF's like a live band... drummer, bassist, guitarist, and little else. I have to play the piano parts, string parts, brass parts, organ parts, etc., just like I would in a real band. So, for one thing, no-one is listening to 'karaoke', that's for sure!

But now that some of the better arrangers have adopted the Marker system, the one thing that gave arrangers the edge, the ability to adjust the arrangement as you go along has largely disappeared. And the regaining of the ability to actually PLAY normally (if you learned to play normally in the first place) is MORE than worth the few other things left, IMO.

So, before you jump all over someone that primarily plays over SMF's, you first have to ask 'Do they play SMF's the way I do, download them off the net and play a wanky solo over them with no work done to the file at all?', or do they either make custom SMF's, or re-work the arranger output to be a file you can actually PLAY fully over without clashing with the accompaniment?

Because there is a HUGE difference between the two, and sadly, the fact you even can post that first post just goes to show how little you have tried to do, so far. If other's get it wrong, that's not the fault of the process, that's the fault of the PLAYERS. If you are doing a solo or a duo, and just use bass and drums and little else, how could playing it 'live' make you sound full? All you would then have is NO drums at all (if you play with a guitarist, like your example). That's a totally different act, just piano and guitar...

Sorry, but a 'live arranger player' in MY book simply means a 'one handed keyboard player, playing over repetitive short SMF's'...

Not that that is any WORSE than playing over SMF's (if you use them to their potential), but it certainly isn't any BETTER...

Well for starters, I should have been clearer in my previous post. I have never played over SMF before. What I meant to say was is that I have heard other musicians play over SMF and they sound terrible. For me, I don't have any interest in playing over SMF, since I play 85% ethnic music. It's easier to play the arranger then SMF because not everything is available. For what I have seen and heard by others playing over SMF, they do what you have described. No editing, nothing, just playing a solo over a complete song.

The point I was trying to make that SMF’s has also introduced people that they have no business being on a stage.

Also If you feel that only real musicians play over SMF to mimic like they were in a band. That's your opinion. But us left handed SMF players know how to jam also.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-18-2008).]

I hope Ian is reading this above

Diki we can do it any way we want because thats what makes it fun & unique, there is NO Right or wrong way IMO.....BUT there IS Good or Bad sounding music in the end result & thats the bottom line.

Of course, Donny, I always read Diki's posts.

Everyone has their own opinion, and Diki's is as valid as the next guy's.

Personally, the "phony" starts for me when I see someone singing, and then walking away from the keyboard as it is still playing.

That's Karaoke, baby, plain and simple, and all the so called showmanship, ducky hats, top hats and smarmy charmy singing on this green earth can't hide how utterly amateurish and phony it appears, and one of the major reasons why arranger players get a bad rap.

I've also known "one-handed keyboard players" who play more with one hand than the two handed players, so I guess it's all relative.

I don't use SMF at all...if styles are SMF snippets, then maybe I do, but I still prefer to play my arrangements the way I do...with style.

Ian

Well said Ian...I too see a lot of people miming to SMF's, Diki's observation that Styles are just short SMF's is one way of looking at it BUT performing with stlyes does mean you have to know the structure, keys and chords of every song you perform which means you have to be a fairly competant musician, using SMF'S means you dont have to be.

A SMF is a pre-orchestrated digtal playback of MIDI data, a Style is a basic loop of a drum, bass and additional instruments that have little meaning until the player manipulates them into a whatever he / she needs to play.

I personlly would never use SMF's as esentially its not me playing, me manipulating Styles into a well known song or instrumental is an art in itself and requires a certain amount of musicianship to do it...I like you am sticking to styles.

Rgds
Noel

Well said Ian...I too see a lot of people miming to SMF's, Diki's observation that Styles are just short SMF's is one way of looking at it BUT performing with stlyes does mean you have to know the structure, keys and chords of every song you perform which means you have to be a fairly competant musician, using SMF'S means you dont have to be.

A SMF is a pre-orchestrated digtal playback of MIDI data, a Style is a basic loop of a drum, bass and additional instruments that have little meaning until the player manipulates them into a whatever he / she needs to play.

I personlly would never use SMF's as esentially its not me playing, me manipulating Styles into a well known song or instrumental is an art in itself and requires a certain amount of musicianship to do it...I like you am sticking to styles.

Rgds
Noel

My opinion

1-Do whatever makes you happy.

2-Do what it takes to make your dollars.

3-I like playing with styles --- my left hand has an instrument assigned so that I am not just triggering chords but adding another dimension to what I am playing. And I do use chord substitutions and some single leading notes with my left hand. Now there’s two hands at work.

4-Having said that I find that there are many songs that sound better with a SMF. They have become popular not just because of the melody and lyric but they also have lines that are very much a part of the song. Impossible for me to do that unless I have the music and then it would never come off right.

5-My big complaint about SMF is that you are playing with a recording, and that’s a fact, it never changes today or tomorrow. That has to effect how I sing or solo – To believe they do not have an effect on your singing or solos would be to deny the fact that a different band or musician or keyboard makes you feel different, that means I perform differently. With a live band we never played the same song in the same way. We are not without feelings and feelings are what music is about.

Enough of perfection and who is right, they all have a place, and that place is decided by the player’s needs, what they are paid to do, their insight, and their talent. As for me, I love it all, and that took me a while to admit.

Wow, that was good – So every ones is right, as it should be.

John C.