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#243842 - 10/03/08 11:46 AM What about the bad economy?
tarkington Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Fontana, CA, USA
Because of the impending bad economy, I'm too scared to buy an expensive keyboard like a T3, $3899 USD! Does anyone else agree?

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#243843 - 10/03/08 12:01 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Stephenm52 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 5126
Loc: USA
That question is a bit of a double edged sword.

You first need to shop around for price, I think you can find a better price elsewhere I wouldn't pay $3899 for a T3 even if I won a mega millions jackpot. That's not because I don't like the Tyros3, I do. If the price is in line with what I'm willing to pay and I was able to sell other equipment to help finance it I would. But to answer your original question if I had to dig into my pocket and come up with $3899 good or bad economy I would not.

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#243844 - 10/03/08 12:53 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Economy may be bad in many areas, but it doesn't seem to be so here (North Louisiana).
Houses are being built and being sold, loans are being made, everything seems to be booming. I hope it continues.
I think that's a little high for the T3. Check with Frank or George.
I commented last night on buying keyboards and their relative prices.
Go for it and ENJOY!
If we all quit spending the economy WILL only get worse.
DonM
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#243845 - 10/03/08 01:00 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
If you approach the performance of music as a business, and you expect that the economy will adversly impact the avaiability of paying jobs and revenue, now might be the time to hold off on a major depreciable expense.

If you need a competitive edge to keep what you have or increase your revenue, and your current rig needs a serious upgrade, now might be the time to upgrade.

But, if you're like most of us and really just like new toys, you're on your own!


Russ

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#243846 - 10/03/08 01:32 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by DonM:
Economy may be bad in many areas, but it doesn't seem to be so here (North Louisiana).
Houses are being built and being sold, loans are being made, everything seems to be booming. I hope it continues.
I think that's a little high for the T3. Check with Frank or George.
I commented last night on buying keyboards and their relative prices.
Go for it and ENJOY!
If we all quit spending the economy WILL only get worse.
DonM


Don ... that's great to hear ... I wonder why the media doesn't talk about those situations ...
For my own info, are homes also being built in NO in the wake of Katrina?

t.
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#243847 - 10/03/08 01:34 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
The economy is good here as well (Mid Atlantic area), restaurants are jammed to capacity with lines of people waiting to get a seat, grocery stores are doing a booming business, and there are homes being built just a few hundred yards beyond my property line with prices beginning at $899,000 and going to 1.2-million.

Gary
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#243848 - 10/03/08 01:37 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by tony mads usa:
Don ... that's great to hear ... I wonder why the media doesn't talk about those situations ...
For my own info, are homes also being built in NO in the wake of Katrina?

t.



I haven't been to New Orleans in the past couple of years. I know they have rebuilt a lot of areas, but some are still in shambles.
As for new homes, there isn't any more room in New Orleans for new homes, just to rebuild those that were destroyed.
DonM
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DonM

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#243849 - 10/03/08 01:42 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by captain Russ:
But, if you're like most of us and really just like new toys, you're on your own!
Russ


LOL, now ain't THAT the truth!!!

Dennis

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#243850 - 10/03/08 05:09 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
zuki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 4716
Hey, is Fran your Dad
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#243851 - 10/03/08 05:17 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
travlin'easy,
What is so special about the mid atlantic region? Wow, that's an expensive area? What is the industry there? Where would someone buiding that size house work? Is that typical of the whole area or...just that part of town? Is that where all the crooked congressman & women live...:-)
Lee


[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 10-03-2008).]
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#243852 - 10/03/08 05:20 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
hellboy44 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 541
Loc: Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by captain Russ:
now might be the time to hold off on a major depreciable expense.


Well our accountant always advises us to renew equipment every few years as we can write off the depreciation at Tax Time....
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#243853 - 10/03/08 05:44 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
rattley Offline
Member

Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 832
Loc: Punta Gorda Florida USA
I still have my Tyros3 pre-ordered and should hear of it arriving there soon. As long as my credit card limit isn't lowered I'm OK with everything. I've worked for local government in SW Florida for 17 years. My county layed off over 50 people and haven't filled any jobs of anyone leaving for other reasons. Never has government done this here. No job is safe anymore. My seniority will help if things get even worse. It's hard to know who or what to believe. That damn bail out package the government is hawking won't help some of the other people I know here NOT lose their homes..................... -charley

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#243854 - 10/03/08 06:03 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
All but about 20 of those people in congress should be fired!
Thay have caused this over time with their greed and corruption!

They just keep doing it to us! That bailout is FULL of PORK!
Lee
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Lee S.

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#243855 - 10/03/08 06:17 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Leeboy,

The big employer here is the local, state and federal government--all of which are spending your and my money as fast as they can. Hell, the state just jacked up everyones taxes to the point where if you don't have at least two jobs you cannot own a house. Most of the folks that live in those expensive homes behind my place work for government agencies. Their spouses work for other government agencies so they can afford the monthly payments.

Of course, if they cannot afford the mortgage that's OK. The Senate and Congress just put together a bailout so they get to keep them, even if they don't make the payments. Plus, they added a bunch of pork barrel bills to the bailout bill so the fat cats could get even fatter. I hope Tony Rome can find room for me in Cozumel, Mexico when my taxes get to the point where I have to move out of the U.S. in order to survive.

It's a sad state of affairs when the largest employer in the nation is government agencies, but that seems to be the case in the U.S. these days. The irony of this is Obama says he'll lower taxes for 95 percent of Americans, and he'll do this by raising taxes. Those were the exact same words spoken by Maryland Governor Martin O'Mally when he ran for office last year. Since then he has instituted the largest tax increase in U.S. History. Hmmmm! Kinda' makes you think, doesn't it.

Bottom line--I have loads of restaurants, nursing homes, assisted living centers and retirement communities where I can perform on a daily basis, and the vast majority are inhabited by elderly, retired, government employees. And, those that have not yet made it to retirement age are spending yours and my tax dollars as fast as they can. I guess that's the best explanation I have for a booming economy in this part of the nation.

Cheers,

Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#243856 - 10/03/08 07:00 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
tarkington Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Fontana, CA, USA
Hopefully for those of you living in areas doing well, foreclosures, future layoffs, and limited credit access may not have much of an impact. However we all may be singing a different tune in a few months once the full impact of what has happened on Wall Street, the banking system, and Washington sinks in. I just can’t afford to be cash poor for the luxury of the latest greatest keyboard and I'm wondering if others had the same thought.

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#243857 - 10/03/08 07:27 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
Gary,
Exactly as I expected...

Lots of things need to change in this country...how shall we get it done??
That's OT and should be another subject...

We may all have to GO to Washington some day and take back our country...

Every one has the right and should vote for who they want to be in the W.H......but If they vote for Obi one...I sure don't want to hear them complain when they get what will come!


Ian...Do you have room for me up there in Canada? I like Canada..great fishing!
Lee
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Lee S.

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#243858 - 10/03/08 09:14 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Being a student of Dave Ramsey we have become completely debt free and if cash has any value we will be fine.
These are is the rainy day we were told to save for.

Many live with the attitude or rationalization they "may die tomorrow so what the heck". The problem comes when they don';t die and tomorrow indeed does comes, and comes and comes...and keeps on coming...
And people owe and owe. I know people who have TWO $400 car payments, various toy payments and claim they cannot afford health insurance!!!!! Amazing.

That said. We don't seem to be doing to bad. Cars are selling homes are being built. Our store is Bout $40k off from last year but will more than a million in sales thats not too terribly bad, However looking forward I think we should buy less stock but the owner is a cash and carry guy He pays cash for everything and pays upon receipt of invoice so he is not effected by business loans and cash flow to pay interest on inventory. He owns over a million in inventory and buys more.

We are not rich by any stretch but we have a nice nest egg we achieved over the years by passing on things others put a lot of external value in like certain cars clothes jewelery and we passed on ALL Extended Warranties. Lets just say our Rolexes, Polo shirts,Harleys,BMWs and Lexus' are still in the bank where they belong and will stay.

WE have everything we need and some of what we want. Right now its financial security. The rich will not be affected by a downturn. They may fire some help and eat out less. Those who work for them with high debt levels are going to eat a lot of soup.


We never bought a new car and don't use debt we cannot pay of in a month. We have learned how to live from the inside out rather than from the outside in and it works. Clark Howard and Dave Ramsey are good teachers.

MY only worry is the FDIC and SIPC solvency....After that its all about gold...

That allow my wife to work three nights a week doing what she loves and I spend 30 hours a week selling musical toys.
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Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
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#243859 - 10/03/08 09:30 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
Cut all your edit cards in half & trash them. The average person has $20,000 in CC debt....& I dont feel bad because they all brought it upon themselves. Lead a horse with a Carrot he keeps walking along. I'm glad I learned my lesson many many years ago. Credit is the Devil. So tell me who created this so called bad economy?

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#243860 - 10/03/08 09:42 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
hammer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2397
Loc: Texas
I think Kingfrog said it all. Good for him.
Here in the Dallas area I would say things are slightly less than normal. I am a real estate broker and we are having the best year EVER! Homes are selling if priced right and the buyers are truly qualified.
I have seen a slow down in new construction - but the builders here have overbuilt the area for years. Now they are having a hard time getting rid of inventory. But that will pass too.

Personally, when I retired 11 years ago I knew I could survive without ever having to work again. Sure, our 3-4 cruises a year would have to be put on hold, and new toys would become just a wish - but what the hell - it all passes with time. This is the 3rd time I have seen this type of economic problems in the last 30 years and things always seem to work out ok.

I do feel sorry for the "debt ridden" families who never learned how to control spending or understand how much trouble they were in finacially.

As for the music industry -it has been on a down turn for years in Dallas. It is really hard now to make your living playing live music in our area. I play my senior gigs each week(about 4 of them weekly) and am paid well for my efforts - but I know a lot of guys playing for peanuts who are gifted players. The studio work is gone, the big band days are over - and the public, in my opinion, couldn't care less if the guy playing can or can't.

Last week I spoke to a friend who played a lot of studio jobs with me in the late 60's. He said when he even gets a call he plays for less money today than we made then. Go figure.

I hope all is well with each of you and that all this worry turns out to be just that -nothing but worry.

Hammer

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#243861 - 10/03/08 11:34 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by hammer:
I think Kingfrog said it all. Good for him.
Here in the Dallas area I would say things are slightly less than normal. I am a real estate broker and we are having the best year EVER! Homes are selling if priced right and the buyers are truly qualified.
I have seen a slow down in new construction - but the builders here have overbuilt the area for years. Now they are having a hard time getting rid of inventory. But that will pass too.

Personally, when I retired 11 years ago I knew I could survive without ever having to work again. Sure, our 3-4 cruises a year would have to be put on hold, and new toys would become just a wish - but what the hell - it all passes with time. This is the 3rd time I have seen this type of economic problems in the last 30 years and things always seem to work out ok.

I do feel sorry for the "debt ridden" families who never learned how to control spending or understand how much trouble they were in finacially.

As for the music industry -it has been on a down turn for years in Dallas. It is really hard now to make your living playing live music in our area. I play my senior gigs each week(about 4 of them weekly) and am paid well for my efforts - but I know a lot of guys playing for peanuts who are gifted players. The studio work is gone, the big band days are over - and the public, in my opinion, couldn't care less if the guy playing can or can't.

Last week I spoke to a friend who played a lot of studio jobs with me in the late 60's. He said when he even gets a call he plays for less money today than we made then. Go figure.

I hope all is well with each of you and that all this worry turns out to be just that -nothing but worry.

Hammer


Sometimes I think they have over exxagerated the economic situation. Actually the majarity of people are able to make their payments. 6% unemployment has been an average for the past 50 years,

I want to know WHO IS RESPONSIBLE for allowing those who could not afford homes buy them. Those who did not have 20% down.

Someone pressured the banks to change their lending practices. It began in the Clinton administration. WE are now forced to pay for those who oucld norafford those homes.

I know the general press wants Obama and I will bet if he gets elected nothing will "change" I just don't understand stealing from the rich and giving it to the poor without the poor having earned it. Sounds like the Soviet Union to me.

What don't people understand about simple math?

JOhn earns $200,000 and pays 25% in taxes IE $50,000

Joe earns $20,000 a year and pays 15% ie
$3000

EVERYONE gets a tax cut of 10%

SO doesn;t it make sense the guy who paid in $50,000 gets back $5000

and the Guy who paid in $3000 gets $300?

Thats what they are calling tax breaks for the rich!!!! Amazing.

OF my boss gets taxed $50,000 more a year guess who loses their jobs? Between my investment income and my wife, we earn enough to keep us in dogs and beans, But I work with people who owe and will suffer badly. Less customers because business owners are paying more and losing customers..... I just don;t understand taxing the rich. Its like a business,,,,,Your goods go up your raise your prices.

But the more people suffer and are called victims the more they vote for those who make promises they cannot keep.

The press is obviously biased. they don;t report the news they TELL US WHAT THINK OF THE NEWS......and who to support. Especially CNN.

Anyway Thank God (yes I believe in God and proud of it) we made good choices and made sacrifices years ago which allows us to buy keyboard like the Tyros.





[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-03-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#243862 - 10/03/08 11:52 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3354
Loc: The World
Should not have made a comment on this one. And I am retracting it.

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 10-04-2008).]

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#243863 - 10/04/08 07:05 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
hammer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2397
Loc: Texas
During the past several years I have seen real estate sales to folks, who in prior times, could never have qualified for a mortgage. There were programs for just about any situation - first time home buyers with no bank account or money even for closing costs - everything rolled into the note. Programs for various careers such as teachers or peace officers - again with little or no financial requirements. Everyone made money - lenders, mortgage brokers, and yes me the real estate broker. The FHA saw a deep decline in loans because they were no longer the "bad paper" guys. Today the title companies are being flooded with FHA closings because that is where you go if the financials are a bit scary.

On top of all that the lenders were allowed to market the ARMs to folks who spent way to much money for their house trying to keep up with thier friends. These people knew better and are not the illiterate in our society - many are professional types with very good educations.

Then the real killer - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac softened the requierments - and they were the major buyers of packaged loans. The rest is history as they say.

Wow, I really go windy on this thread. Again, I hope all here do well and as I often discuss with my wife - it is not really important what happens - it is only important that we all learn to cope with the cirmunstances and survive until it gets back to normal.

Hammer

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#243864 - 10/04/08 07:12 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
Should not have made a comment on this one. And I am retracting it.

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 10-04-2008).]


I would guess you may have wanted to claim its the evil rich who are the blame.

People with even $100,000 in the bank will not spend it. People with millions will not spend it/ Think about how many jobs are affected because people who DON'T use or need credit won't put putting into the economy whether its a Multi million dollar G3
Jet or a new car. They won't be eating out as much, They won't be buying home theater systems,They may mow their owm lawns and clean their own homes, less or no vacations,
They may tear papertowels in half and clean and reuse baggoes bless my wife's heart)
The may not buy thhose $2000 RIMS AND $3000 car stereo. ON and on and on

And guess who looses jobs and pays less into the government, not that that matters much because the top 10% pay more than 80% of the entire government's revenue as it is.

Now tax the guy who has $300k in CDs and earns $36K on his SAVING at a higher rate and his $36 is now 20K....$15 less to circulate creating jobs, But 15% more to the government to PAY those who cannot get jobs..

IT's crazy and about to get much crazier should a guy who will need Joe Biden to stay healthy convince America how victimized and poor they are and how they will save the day...
Then blame it all on Bush when they cannot.

We need to throw EVERYONE out of the house and senate and vote for. Main street people have more sense and a far less affected..

MOST of America is doing ok. I personally do not know anyone who is suffering. My co -eworkers making $12 an hour are doing as well as they can do and are not complaining about not becomeing doctors or Government workers. They accept the choices that made and don;t blame it on the government. But will if they lose their jobs because the owner decided he is better off and will pay less taxes by retiring and selling his inventory at fire sale prices. He already passed on buyng the new car he bought every three years this go round.

Look around its the Frank's Audio Works of the world who employee the most people not the GE's and Boeings. You take from them and they ride themselves of employess first then product,,,,,,,




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-04-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

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#243865 - 10/04/08 07:21 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
OK, you asked...
I want to know WHO IS RESPONSIBLE for allowing those who could not afford homes buy them. Those who did not have 20% down.

It was absolutely truely BILL CLINTON
He said we need to put lots more folks in houses, so go get it done! Give them the loan! ANd these are amajority of the ones defaulting today!

It's a fact (presented with refernce to documentation by Rush L.)

Lee
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#243866 - 10/04/08 07:57 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Lee..., the mortgage problem isn't just the fault of the buyers. There were some VERY dirty lenders out there preying on low income families too. What blew my mind is how all the finger pointing always leads to some of the dumbest crap you'll ever hear. At one point there were reports saying that the mortgage crisis is the fault of low income MINORITY families! How F'ed up is that! If you really looked at it..., MANY of the families that were failing in the mortgage battle were MIDDLE CLASS families. People were buying $300-$400,000 homes (who could afford it at the time-living in these nice gated communities), but again many of them made a very poor decision and signed on the dotted line accepting their loan with an adjustable int. rate!

The main problem I've seen is that too many buyers signed on with an adjustable int. rate. That IMO is just plain dumb..., I for the life of me could never understand why a person would accept an adjustable int. rate when the country is at war. They didn't have problems when the payments were reasonable.., but when a $650 monthly payment went from that to over $800 within two months and continued to climb people started to really feel the sqeeze.

My wife and I puchased our home without having 20% down. We however were smart buyers. We live within our budget We have credit cards, but use them wisely. We have a nice house, pay our bills, DID NOT sign for an adjustable rate either. I was raised and taught to spend the money you DO have and not money you DON'T have.

There was also a problem with some families that bought these homes who thought they were suddenly RICH. So many living outside of their income brackets. Basically trying to live the life of a classy wine drinker on a beer man's salary. Families really got into trouble doing this.

I don't think the answer is cutting up your credit cards. If you got them..., and have a decent int. rate... QUIT FREAKIN USING THEM.., and pay off the current debt you got and stop racking it up. If you own a home YOU NEED to have at least ONE credit card (as you never know when you may need it for an emergency)

This whole mess has blame on both sides.. It's the buyers and the lenders. Too many were duped by lenders who had dirty lending practices. Too many home buyers were purchasing without using their brains and common sense. It created a huge mess.., and now we find ourselves in the state we're in today.
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#243867 - 10/04/08 08:17 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
hammer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2397
Loc: Texas
After I retired I thought playing golf every day was a true dream life - so I did that for about a year - boring to the nth degree. I was never a guy who could sit around and do nothing and that life style was killing me. I decided to get a part time job and was hired at a local Best Buy store selling appliances and later cameras. The store I work for hires mostly college students from the two colleges in our town. These kids are the cream of crop - many work full time and go to school full time. Many or on their on -no help from home. These are the folks who are getting hurt - hours have been cut back severly and many of these kids are really having a hard time. My wife and I help out and buy groceries for a few of them and they are appreciateive - but that does not solve the problem.

I don't understand how the "talking heads" on any TV show or radio talk show can keep talking up how much trouble we are in and expect the public not to buy in to it. You know, keep telling the same story often enough and it becomes the truth. I wonder how many people are not spending money because they believe everything being said on the news shows. I can't state exact figures here but the store numbers are down tons from last years numbers - and I imagine that is true of a lot of retail stores.

I have been a small business owner and I don't buy into the credit problem crap being hyped. As long as my bottom line was looking good I could always find money. I bet it is still the same today.

The question was who is to blame. Well, I am not a believer in blaming others but strongly believe in personal responsitility for ones actions. That said, regardless of who "allowed" all the bad loans or lose investment policies the individuals involved were more than ready to take advantage of the situation.

I sure am on board though with replacing every person in Washington. The entire group has failed to protect the country and it's best interests. God forbid we ever have to protect our country on our own soil - I frankly don't see the guts to do so by those who are in charge. Where is the next "greatest generation" coming from?

Hammer

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#243868 - 10/04/08 08:48 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
FAEbGBD Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 847
Loc: Nashvville TN
This bail-out: one of the worst decisions ever. Taken us 5 years in Iraq to spend 600 billion, and then our Congress just hands over 700 billion in a week, just like that. Oh, the House took 2 tries, guess there wasn't enough money spent on wool research, race tracks, and rum runners in the first draft. We talk here about running everybody out of Washington; yeah right, and Ted Kenedy will be re-elected for the 250th year. McCain wants to reduce government and earmarks, but leads the pack in making sure this 700 billion bail-out goes through. They all make me puke.

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#243869 - 10/04/08 09:44 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Deregulation has been the mantra since Reagan (and both sides have bought into it, don't get me wrong!)...

What everybody forgets is that each and every one of those regulations were passed as a response to a problem. They weren't grandfathered into the Constitution They came about for a reason. But leave them long enough in place that many forget WHY they were passed in the first place, and they start to look like an impediment to business, not the necessary check that they actually were.

Now remove those checks and bounds, slip loose the dogs of capitalism, and all of a sudden, we start to act SURPRISED when the same problems recur as a result of the same reason.

The United States of Amnesia...
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#243870 - 10/04/08 11:13 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
Hammer and Squeak...everybody, really, is showing that we understand the elements of the mess the country is in.

Greed and ego...those are the critical elements. Ego on the part of people who yielded to the temptation of borrowing sometimes 125% of the purchase price of a house...signed up for 40 plus year mortgages...did ARM's which reset to unaffordable payments and more foolishness just so they can have a larger house than the neighbor.

Then, there's the business establishment that banked on the property values going up to the point where, if a foreclosure was necessary, the house(s) involved would be worth more than the mortgage balance.

The whole affair played on the greed and egos of all involved, and now everyone is paying the price. Rory hit it on the head when he says the bail out is going to cost as much as we have spent on the war in Iraq.

An absolute mess!


Russ

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#243871 - 10/04/08 11:21 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
...So, how "BOUT them Philles ! yay !!!!!!
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#243872 - 10/04/08 02:06 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Caragabal Offline
Member

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 320
Loc: Hobart Tasmania Australia
Diki Right on.

If you don't learn the lessons of history you
are bound to make the same mistakes.

Cousin Ken

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#243873 - 10/04/08 07:50 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Deregulation has been the mantra since Reagan (and both sides have bought into it, don't get me wrong!)...

What everybody forgets is that each and every one of those regulations were passed as a response to a problem. They weren't grandfathered into the Constitution They came about for a reason. But leave them long enough in place that many forget WHY they were passed in the first place, and they start to look like an impediment to business, not the necessary check that they actually were.

Now remove those checks and bounds, slip loose the dogs of capitalism, and all of a sudden, we start to act SURPRISED when the same problems recur as a result of the same reason.

The United States of Amnesia...


Deregulation is a good thing....Its Freedom.

The problem with both is people seem to disregard the RESPONSIBILITY that comes with both.

Freedom without responsibility is running rampant in this country

As has deregulation......

We need atotal and compete cleanout of the sewer that is Washington even if we have tot thow the babys out with the bath water.

I would LOVE a congress and Senate of Sarah Palins (people who did not like what they saw as citizens and GOT INVOLVED at the local level then continued to get involved,

Her success proves people yearn for "Joe sixpacks" and "Soccer Moms" to reside over the constitution. Not lawyers. Since when is a law degree a prerequisite for public office?

The more people get involved at the local levels the mmore they will have a chance at the state levels and the national levels.

I believe Omaba is in it for himself and to make the history books. I don;t feel a genuine care for the people. I hear it. But I don;t feel it. I felt it from Bill Clinton, I fell it from Mc Cain, I felt it from Regan, I even felt it from Jimmy Carter. I did not feel it from Hillary whom without Bill would not be where she is.

We need term limits in the worst way in Washington. NO Harry Reids, and 20 year elected officials. Two terms and out.....without a big pension for life. DO it like we enlisted in the service. To serve for a few years than move on.
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#243874 - 10/05/08 09:27 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
DonM Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
Deregulation is a good thing....Its Freedom.

The problem with both is people seem to disregard the RESPONSIBILITY that comes with both.

Freedom without responsibility is running rampant in this country

As has deregulation......

We need atotal and compete cleanout of the sewer that is Washington even if we have tot thow the babys out with the bath water.

I would LOVE a congress and Senate of Sarah Palins (people who did not like what they saw as citizens and GOT INVOLVED at the local level then continued to get involved,

Her success proves people yearn for "Joe sixpacks" and "Soccer Moms" to reside over the constitution. Not lawyers. Since when is a law degree a prerequisite for public office?

The more people get involved at the local levels the mmore they will have a chance at the state levels and the national levels.

I believe Omaba is in it for himself and to make the history books. I don;t feel a genuine care for the people. I hear it. But I don;t feel it. I felt it from Bill Clinton, I fell it from Mc Cain, I felt it from Regan, I even felt it from Jimmy Carter. I did not feel it from Hillary whom without Bill would not be where she is.

We need term limits in the worst way in Washington. NO Harry Reids, and 20 year elected officials. Two terms and out.....without a big pension for life. DO it like we enlisted in the service. To serve for a few years than move on.



I wasn't going to get involved in this, but this is the most sensible thing I've read.
Too bad it won't happen.
DonM
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#243875 - 10/05/08 10:19 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by hammer:

I don't understand how the "talking heads" on any TV show or radio talk show can keep talking up how much trouble we are in and expect the public not to buy in to it. You know, keep telling the same story often enough and it becomes the truth. I wonder how many people are not spending money because they believe everything being said on the news shows.
Hammer


Hammer ... I agree ... I have long wondered what the effect would be if the media started saying that the price of houses was going to INCREASE over the next three months ...
Don't you think there would be a turn-around ??? ...
t.
_________________________
t. cool

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#243876 - 10/05/08 10:21 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
BTW ... I am happy to see that this thread has NOT turned into a mud-slinging, name calling, pissing contest ... nice going guys ...
t.
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t. cool

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#243877 - 10/05/08 01:36 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
tarkington Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Fontana, CA, USA
Don’t want to be dark and preoccupied with this but when you put your mind’s eye on what’s happening in this nation’s economy this is time to be our best selves, be adults, and know what’s the sensible way to survive. Thanks for all your excellent points on this.

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#243878 - 10/05/08 02:50 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by tony mads usa:
BTW ... I am happy to see that this thread has NOT turned into a mud-slinging, name calling, pissing contest ... nice going guys ...
t.


...especially if you don't read between the lines .

Thank God AAPS (Aging Arranger Players Society) doesn't reflect the attitudes of the larger community of artists and musicians.

And oh yeah, it's very comforting to know that ol' 'Joe Six-pack' McCain, the son and grandson of four-star admirals, owner of 9 homes and 13 cars, and married to a 'hottie' worth over $100 Million, is "just like the rest of us". And with two wars, 940,000 jobs lost since the beginning of the year, the worst economy since the great depression, and eight years of the worst case of government incompetence in this country's history, who better than a good ol' Soccer Mom with a hard-won degree in journalism (after five false starts from five different second-rate schools) and a firm belief in Creationism, to solve our country's problems and restore our credibility around the world. I'll feel so much better knowing that we've got Putin firmly in our sights from her backyard should he raise his head in our airspace.

Oh well, I'm gonna go out and fire up the grill and throw on a couple of those yummy mooseburgers.

chas
_________________________
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#243879 - 10/05/08 02:55 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Oh well, I'm gonna go out and fire up the grill and throw on a couple of those yummy mooseburgers.=

Don't knock em' till you've tried em'.

Gary
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#243880 - 10/06/08 02:53 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
...especially if you don't read between the lines .

Thank God AAPS (Aging Arranger Players Society) doesn't reflect the attitudes of the larger community of artists and musicians.

And oh yeah, it's very comforting to know that ol' 'Joe Six-pack' McCain, the son and grandson of four-star admirals, owner of 9 homes and 13 cars, and married to a 'hottie' worth over $100 Million, is "just like the rest of us". And with two wars, 940,000 jobs lost since the beginning of the year, the worst economy since the great depression, and eight years of the worst case of government incompetence in this country's history, who better than a good ol' Soccer Mom with a hard-won degree in journalism (after five false starts from five different second-rate schools) and a firm belief in Creationism, to solve our country's problems and restore our credibility around the world. I'll feel so much better knowing that we've got Putin firmly in our sights from her backyard should he raise his head in our airspace.

Oh well, I'm gonna go out and fire up the grill and throw on a couple of those yummy mooseburgers.

chas



I don't believe for a second Jon Mc Cain "forgot" about losing ALL freedom for many years in Saigon, I don't believe 100 homes could make a man like that forget what its like not to eat and live normally without pain.

I do believe Palin did what she did on her own from no where with no "help" from radical types and I don't think she became Governer and began her political carreer holding hands with some American who belonged to a terrorist group that bombed American institutions and to this day has no remourse. I don't think Palin or even Mc Cain took over $100,000 from Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae in "contributions" In fact Obama was the second behind Dodd in receiving contributions.

I know poor musicians and starving artists and people without always believe they will get freebees from the government if they elect the more socialist side. But while they are taking those overseas are planning to to kill them.......and in fact will.

There is no doubt in my mind we will be attacked again if Obama gets elected. Our enemies have claimed they want Obama in office.......Go figure. They got Clinton and spent the next 8 years planniing the largest attack on this country since Pearl Harbor while Clinton cared for the "poor" and "felt their pain" enjoying his interns sexual favors. They tested him with the first WT bombing,,,,he did nothing, They rested him with the killing of our Marines in another bombing...he did nothing...they tested him with the bombimg of the USS Cole....again he did nothing.

The Internet stocks caused a huge stock market bubble and the governemnt benefited with more capital gain income. No on complained about all the surplus money which was wiped out after 9-11....never to be recouped.
We need a military leader now more than someone who will make sure people who cannot afford homes can buy them........

I really believe the American people understand this and will see the light....or if I lived in any major city I would move,,,
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#243881 - 10/06/08 03:33 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Ummm, I wonder where the phrase "people get the government they deserve" came from?

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#243882 - 10/06/08 03:49 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Also, I wonder why nearly 70% of college graduates support the democratic nominee while states with the lowest educational level, the worst economy, the lowest SAT scores, the highest percentage of Evangelicals, and the lowest per-capita income, such as West Virginia, vote overwhelmingly for the candidate who proposes $400 billion in tax cuts for the wealthiest individuals and corporations.

Like I said, you get the government you deserve.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#243883 - 10/06/08 03:53 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
On a personal note, I would not oppose legislation that prohibited morons from voting.

chas

PS: Please don't respond to this unless it applies to you.
_________________________
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#243884 - 10/06/08 07:50 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
Also, I wonder why nearly 70% of college graduates support the democratic nominee while states with the lowest educational level, the worst economy, the lowest SAT scores, the highest percentage of Evangelicals, and the lowest per-capita income, such as West Virginia, vote overwhelmingly for the candidate who proposes $400 billion in tax cuts for the wealthiest individuals and corporations.

Like I said, you get the government you deserve.

chas

You are making two errant generalizations and a conclusions.
#1 a college student getting his "education" in a liberal institution is smart and knows whats best in their 20 years of life Only 6 of them actually conscious and all of them self absorbed. Who is Used to be taken care of hardly having to face REAL life and work. And usually they are too busy drinking and partying to bother voting.

#2 Those in the "red" states who tend to live by a moral ruler are ignorant and dumb although many are far older have lived though good times and bad and are hanging on the last vestiges of a moral society that at one time in their lives was far less self absorbed and greedy. Poverty stricken Who KNOW hardship and still have not achieved anything but promises from liberal leaders.
The same people living in West Virgina when Clinton was President are still there. Obama will do nothing for them....watch and learn, And he will blame the Bush years instead of his own actions to put see that those who couldn't afford homes were able to buy them even though they could not even read the contract......because they went to schools controlled by the liberal government and unions.

Oh and College kids ala youth always were against the "establishment" Duh. Many in their ranks were dopers though. They do not have the life experience to know hardship and They are taking to the streets in hippie garb screaming out for change they have no idea what to change and what it means,They have never had to fend for themselves! Daddy and Mommy took care of them MOST of their short lives. Many have been "on there own" for a whole 3 years and have never had to completelt support themselves!!!

I pray for a depression. I'll be fine. We saved for a rainy day and have no debt.

But there are many people in this country that need to endure real hardship. Those who would rather buy $2000 Rims and make $450 a month car payments than buy medical insurance. People consider it a "hardship" not owning a home. They will soon realize hardship is not having A roof. Study the depression. 60% of the population was fine.

I hope Obama does get elected. A democratic House and Senate, No excuses. A single term President without a doubt. He does not have the experience, or solutions only talk. Biden will be running the country and God forbid he keels over.......Pelosi...

Years ago those in their 50's yearned to be in their 20's. I would not want to be 20 in today's world for anything. The party is over.

It's going to be interesting to watch unfold. I know one thing a President Barack Hussian Obama may never be on the currency but I have no doubt he will be on the Food Stamp.
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#243885 - 10/06/08 11:20 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
synerjim Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 526
Loc: CA
This is a very good topic. I 100% agrees with Kingfrog who really has an excellent insights on what's happening in politics nowadays. I came from another country and settled here in the U.S. which is now my beloved country. I'm really shocked, discouraged, scared by what's happening here. We have lost the sense of righteousness, virtue, pride of being an American. Being an outsider before, regardless of what the media says, specially the left who only knows is to play the blame game, the whole world is still lookin up to America as the most kind, generous and righteous country.

The only thing i can say now is do your diligence to know exactly what values these candidates are spousing and compare it with yours. Do not listen and be persuaded with the biased media.

Let's hope and pray that that all we American will recover quickly from these cyclic tumultuous times as before.
_________________________
Jim

SD90,Korg I3, KMA Liverpool,TC Helicon Play Electric, Fender Sonoran Guitar, vArranger, Bose S1 Pros, Bose L1 Compact, Aiwa Exos-9

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#243886 - 10/07/08 03:00 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
I know one thing a President Barack Hussian Obama may never be on the currency but I have no doubt he will be on the Food Stamp.


Nothing like a little political discussion to find out who's really on the other side of our little fantasy world here in cyberspace. Yep, America's making great progress alright. Gosh, Kingfrog, sounds like you're almost ready to abolish slavery; well, in principle anyway.

Well, at least we know who drank the kool-aid.

Oh, and it's really gratifying to see how quickly our recently minted citizens have been able to grasp the culture. It usually takes a lifetime to get that way. Must have had some indigenous people to practice on back in the old country.

Well enough of this. Let's all get back to the purity of arranger music. We can start with a rousing version of 'Dixie'.

chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#243887 - 10/07/08 07:27 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Time to put a fork in this one--it's definitely done!

Chas, I sincerely hope the above post was made while in a drunken state of mind. There are an enormous number of intelligent, articulate individuals on this forum from other nations, many of which whom have recently immigrated legally to the U.S. for a host of reasons. The vast majority of them that I have encountered, both personally and in cyberspace, know more about this nation and its political history than those who were born here. This type of behavior should not be condoned or tolerated on any forum. And, if anyone was insulted by Chas' statements above, please keep in mind he does not represent the views of the vast majority of this forum's membership.

Gary

Sorry Diki, I didn't mean to insult you by calling you Chas. My mistake.

Gary

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 10-07-2008).]
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#243888 - 10/07/08 08:56 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Kingforg.., That was a very insensitive statement to make. It is funny how you can really see the inner-zoner with some of their statements. Rather than just refer to him as Sen. Obama.., you like many use his full name (which is cleary descimination by name), and in this case used to stir up the growing racism in this nation towards Islam and those with middle eastern ties.

As far as West Virginia is concerned..., well folks remember, I live in southern West Virginia. I can tell you Obama's biggest challenge in this state IS NOT his politics. Many upon many of polls have been taken here..., and two of the main reasons so many in this state supported Clinton was based on Obama's full name and his ethnicity. Even Clinton took some heavy heat because she exploited this and targeted white woman voters here.

Gary's right in that Kingfrogs statement doesn't represent the majority here..., but clearly this forum isn't immune to those individuals... I have had my issues with a few of them.
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#243889 - 10/07/08 09:36 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:

Chas, I sincerely hope the above post was made while in a drunken state of mind.

Gary


Sorry Gary, I don't drink. Looks like YOU might have had a nip, though, since you obviously weren't referring to Diki in your post. As far as immigrants are concerned, I have absolutely no problem with any of them, except perhaps those that are so quick and eager to absorb and embrace the kind of bigoted garbage spouted by your friend Kingfrog. Neither does it suprise me that you'd come out in defense of it. Hey, at least Kingfrog is out front with his.

chas
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#243890 - 10/07/08 09:41 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
cgiles..., it's better left alone man. I had issues with members in the past (racist emails from members here).., and then was called a liar about the whole thing just because I refused to post the names of the individuals here.

In anger I posted a few topics here regarding hate-mail.., which probably should have just been left alone, but it's here man.. Some members here (daily posters) are biggots. You'll find this on any forum.

Again.., I think it's just best left alone as Kingfrogs statement was made (in plain view here on the forum)...., and I'm quite confident that Nigel will deal with it.
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#243891 - 10/07/08 11:21 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
I think the "take-a-way" here is for everyone to think about their individual perception of the situation involving racism.

To say it is not as prevalent as it was years ago is a gross over-simplification. It's just less blatant/visible.

Of course, Obama will be facing issues regarding his race. Egghead academic research has already identified that as a major issue in this election.

How sad.

R.

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#243892 - 10/07/08 11:57 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Russ..., you're absolutely right. Things are changing but our society still has a very long way to go. Racism is just as bad as it was years ago.., but it's just not as "in your face" as it used to be and more have gone to keeping their feelings in their closets (due to the times).

Parents are still teaching their children to hate..., and being in this war clearly hasn't helped the overall view of the middle east. To date I still get very negative racist things said to me about middle easterners.., and I'm not even remotely close to being middle eastern!

Sad sad indeed.


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-07-2008).]
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#243893 - 10/07/08 12:21 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by squeak_D:
cgiles..., it's better left alone man.



You're right, Squeak, and I will have nothing more to say on the matter. However this presidential race turns out, I am happy to know that there are still a sizable number of fair-minded people in this great country. I wish the percentage were a little higher on this board since it's made up mostly of my favorite segment of the population, musicians. I'm guessing it would be if our members belonged to a younger age group. It's sad that age seems to harden our attitudes rather than allow us to benefit from the wisdom that age affords us. Anyhow, we'll all be dead soon and the only thing that will matter will be how we're remembered. Okay, I'm done with it.

chas
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#243894 - 10/07/08 12:46 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I feel sad when I hear the party line spouted... Remarks like ' We have lost the sense of righteousness, virtue, pride of being an American' confuse the hell out of me.

Is that the sense of righteousness that committed genocide on the Native Americans, and broke nearly every treaty we signed with them? Is that the virtue of slavery? Is that the pride of segregation? Or do you believe in the Norman Rockwell vision of America, of a time that only existed for a few lucky ones, who would never have achieved their middle class goals if the rules that strictly govern the rapaciousness of unfettered capitalism hadn't been imposed by Roosevelt and others in the twenties? That idyllic vision would never have occurred without strict regulation of our nations financiers, and we would see the serfdom that is our direction nowadays.

Has the largest shift of money and power from the middle class to the ultra rich (which, I GUARANTEE not one single zoner is a member of) since the twenties over the last few years taught us nothing? Has the deregulation of our financial system to profit the few at the cost of the rest of us taught us nothing? Has the politicization of corporate news coverage, and the loss of objective reportage taught us nothing?

It IS the United States of Amnesia...

Me, I'd rather have a 'tax and spend' Democrat president, than a 'tax CUT and spend' Republican (anyone care to comment on this one?). It's just a shame John McCain's middle name isn't Adolf. Then there wouldn't be ANY mudslinging about names! If we can't rise above the petty, the sloganism, the unresearched belief in anything your candidate spouts, we DO deserve what we get.

Oh, whatever.... If you can forgive and forget the last eight years (about the only way you COULD vote Republican), you can forgive and forget MY opinions, too, can't you..?

Diki 'Satan' Ross
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#243895 - 10/09/08 08:44 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Quote:
Originally posted by Kingfrog:
.....................I pray for a depression. I'll be fine. We saved for a rainy day and have no debt.

But there are many people in this country that need to endure real hardship. Those who would rather buy $2000 Rims and make $450 a month car payments than buy medical insurance. People consider it a "hardship" not owning a home. They will soon realize hardship is not having A roof...........


Kingfrog,
you are of course entitled to your opinion, but for me, from the total of your LAST 2 big posts only those few lines quoted above are connected to reality, and I congratulate you for:

1) having the brains to save for a rainy day, and
2) for realising that a large percentage of American citizens do not seem to posess enough brains to do the same.

Other than that, I don't agree to anything you said. Things like that are heard over here also (I don't live in the US) from the mouths of the far-right politicians. The same "deregulate", "moral ruler", "God fearing", "Should attack before we are attacked" mentality, that seems to find eager listeners among the poor, maybe unemployed, lower education population, that seldom judges thing with a clear mind, instead votes what their families voted, because it is "tradition". Of course, these voters do not possess enough brains to realise that once "deregulated", the economy will "correct itself" in favor of those who can understand how it works, and they will be even poorer as a result. Go figure.

From my (neutral, I believe) point of view, neither of your candidates will change anything INSIDE THE U.S. once elected. Certainly not the "inexperienced" Obama, nor the "Pass me the AP rounds, those muj are wearing body armor, that 'll teach 'em" McCain.

But I secretly fear that McCain will want to actually participate in a war in which he will surely not be a POW again, that this is his chance of proving he can do it. And a new war, or the continuation of the current ones, will only bring bad things to your country as well as any country in the world, including mine. So I would choose the lesser of two evils. Who knows, maybe "Hussein" will talk to his dark coloured friends down at the Middle East and oil prices will drop. LOL.

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 10-09-2008).]

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#243896 - 10/09/08 09:20 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703

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#243897 - 10/09/08 09:56 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
SemiLiveMusic Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 2204
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by DonM:

If we all quit spending the economy WILL only get worse.
DonM


If you and HankB quit adding to your music stores, it will be the Great Depression II.
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#243898 - 10/09/08 10:48 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Got to have something coming in before you can spend it... I presume all of you in the North are expecting fuel to drop in price? Don't count on it. As soon as demand goes up (first cold snap) back up it goes.

Perhaps the big city guys are doing better on this, but I can say for certain in my smallish resort area, things are getting VERY slow. People are still coming here, but they are spending less. A large portion of our community went crazy with the real estate bubble, and many are broke or soon to go there. Local banks will soon be going broke, that leveraged themselves to issue loans for inflated price houses (that no-one EVER thought would lose value!) and now no-one can afford the mortgages.

And, before the ultra-right patsy's trot this out again, none of these people were poor lower income people trying to get their first house. Most everyone round here is pretty well off. Or at least WERE, until they started trading homes around like playing cards.THESE are the folks that precipitated this crisis. Middle class America. The vast amount of debt is owed by them, not some inner city working mother... (grow a heart, you bastards )

Perhaps for now, the retired city OMB is going to be insulated from all this. But don't bet on it. Your retirements are often tied to mutual funds... anyone taken a hit, already? Rampant inflation is already being predicted by some cautious economists (reputable ones, that is), and that won't do any of us any good. This is a large economy, and it takes a lot more time for problems to surface and impact the average Joe Six-pack. But it takes longer to fix, too...

Joe is going to have to give up his micro-brews and start drinking Schaeffer Light pretty soon.

And he's far more likely to use an S900 than a T3 if he's got any sense or keep the arranger he has already got. But maybe this could be a good thing... Just imagine how much better as a PLAYER he could get if he wasn't counting on the arranger to make any improvements for him Imagine how much better as a player he will get by practicing rather than just working out the technical details and talking endlessly about what the NEXT über-expensive arranger is going to do for HIM...

"Ask not what your arranger can do for you... ask what YOU can do on your arranger"
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#243899 - 10/09/08 11:06 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
leeboy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 2580
Loc: Ocala, FL USA
I wholeheartly WELCOME every single LEGAL immigrant to this great nation!
And I would help them in any way to become an American!

The rest need to be shown the door out!
I don't care which country they broke our law to come in from.

It IS part of our problems. Ask the hospitals, police departments etc.

Seems like neither candidate has said much about it??

Lee
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#243900 - 10/09/08 11:55 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Yep... blame it on all those illegal Mexicans running hedge funds, blame it on all the illegal Europeans running Fanny and Freddie, blame it on all the wetbacks in Washington at the Capitol Building and the Fed who deregulated the system...

Hey... what about the Jews and the blacks? Surely you can find a way to blame them too? I mean, this crisis couldn't POSSIBLY have been precipitated by greedy white Americans, could it? If it wasn't for the mud people, this country would be Paradise on earth by now, wouldn't it...?

Guantanamo got us off on the path... might as well build a few MORE concentration camps now that we need a scapegoat for our leaders' incompetence... Some of our troops have already been desensitized to inflicting torture, I bet they'd line up round the block to show poor Paco the error of his ways, or Washington Jr. his 'place' in society.

I've been to Germany... those guys don't have horns coming out of their heads. Pretty much like us, to be honest. They simply show how easy it is to get people to do ANYTHING once their basic freedoms have been given up (as a response to terror) and their economic system ruined by incompetence and greed...

Don't think for one minute it can't happen here. Look at Guantanamo, at 'rendition', at waterboarding, at attorneys being fired for their political views, at the 'Bush doctrine' (if you know what this is, you are smarter than your vice presidential favorite, wink, wink!), at the 'bailout'...

It already has...
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#243901 - 10/09/08 12:15 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
squeak_D Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
Diki..,, they aleady tried to blame the mortgage crisis on us There were reports going out saying this mortgage mess is due to low income minority families when in reality the number do not reflect this.

Many minority families who bought homes didn't go out and buy a freakin $350-$400,000 home that they could not afford. So much of the mess was caused by middle class families buying really expensive homes with adjustable interest rates..., then living WAY outside of their budgets. Charging this, charging that..., then when that mortgage payment went from $800 one month to $1200 the next (and kept climbing) things really got ugly.

It pisses me off that everyone wants to blame the lenders soley (although they were a part of it), but so many of those buyers who made very poor financial decisions don't want to accept responsibility for it.... My wife and I pay our bills on time.., have NEVER been late on any bill, have NO debt, have credit cards but use them wisely..., live within our means.., yet we gotta use our tax dollars to bail out everyone else.
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#243902 - 10/09/08 01:21 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I have this analogy....

Put an average consumer in a bank, it's like a kid in a candy store. If you loan him as much money as he wants for candy, he'll go home with six POUNDS of the stuff, as much as he can carry

He doesn't care that it will make him sick, rot his teeth, and take forty years to pay for out of his allowance..!

But the candyman knows that... He knows it as certainly as the sun rising in the East! So it's the responsibility of the candyman to only sell him what he knows will get payed back and not make him sick and rot his teeth.

But lately, the candyman has become a little kid himself... His dad left him the store when he retired, and he has not the slightest concern about long term potential problems, as long as he can make a short term buck, he goes for it! (No wetback candymen, either, if you are looking for a minority to blame!) The short term buck is just too tempting...

So, what do we need here? Of course... ADULTS Someone to tell the candyman he CAN'T loan enough to the kid to make his teeth rot and break his piggy bank...

And THAT, my friends, is the government's job... They are, in a sense, in loco parentis. They tell the kid 'this will rot your teeth' and they tell the kid selling the candy 'Don't sell him more than he can carry'!

But when the ADULTS start acting like little kids as well, well, you can see what happens. SOMEONE has to be the grown up, and it's time we insisted our representatives do so. Every kid dreams of a world with no adult supervision... Lord of the Flies pretty much describes what happens when they achieve it.

We are living through our own Lord of the Flies right now... You can already hear the squeals for Simon's blood.

Simon the wetback...
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#243903 - 10/09/08 01:55 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I have this analogy....

Put an average consumer in a bank, it's like a kid in a candy store. If you loan him as much money as he wants for candy, he'll go home with six POUNDS of the stuff, as much as he can carry

He doesn't care that it will make him sick, rot his teeth, and take forty years to pay for out of his allowance..!

But the candyman knows that... He knows it as certainly as the sun rising in the East! So it's the responsibility of the candyman to only sell him what he knows will get payed back and not make him sick and rot his teeth.

But lately, the candyman has become a little kid himself... His dad left him the store when he retired, and he has not the slightest concern about long term potential problems, as long as he can make a short term buck, he goes for it! (No wetback candymen, either, if you are looking for a minority to blame!) The short term buck is just too tempting...

So, what do we need here? Of course... ADULTS Someone to tell the candyman he CAN'T loan enough to the kid to make his teeth rot and break his piggy bank...

And THAT, my friends, is the government's job... They are, in a sense, in loco parentis. They tell the kid 'this will rot your teeth' and they tell the kid selling the candy 'Don't sell him more than he can carry'!

But when the ADULTS start acting like little kids as well, well, you can see what happens. SOMEONE has to be the grown up, and it's time we insisted our representatives do so. Every kid dreams of a world with no adult supervision... Lord of the Flies pretty much describes what happens when they achieve it.

We are living through our own Lord of the Flies right now... You can already hear the squeals for Simon's blood.

Simon the wetback...



I love this analogy, but...

The FATHER (literally speaking) of the kid in the candy store should have taught the kid NOT to buy as much as he wants, but as much as he NEEDS, just like we teach our kids NOT to accept candy from a stranger. Thern we wouldn't need the government to play adult.

And this happens more and more these days, adults behaving like kids in a candy store... Have not felt it myself yet, (don't have kids) but have cousins a mere 15 years younger who do not realise what the real world is about. They think that they can get a job at whim, that problems are solved easily.

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#243904 - 10/09/08 03:55 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
History teaches us that everyone wants everything, to hell with the consequences. Do you think that people in the past didn't TRY to get more from the candy store than they could afford? Only, back then, the candy store owner was more cautious, and the ADULT in the room, forbade him to loan it.

You can take that as proof that we behaved better in the past, but human nature being what it is (pretty unchanging, IMO), I simply take it as proof that without the stringent controls on the lending industry, things would have been just as bad then as now...
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#243905 - 10/09/08 04:21 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2202
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
A few thoughts on this topic...

1) The economic crisis has enough blame to spread around to just about everyone. Gov't (Deregulation), Gov't ("do nothing" legislators), Wall Street execs (Greed/corruption), middle class families (living too much on debt, etc...) should all smacked...

2) Try as I might, I can not find a meaningful reason to vote for John McCain.

3) Obama is not destined to be a one term President.

4) Economically, we enjoyed much better conditions during the Clinton years...Not saying he was to thank for it all but it was under his watch things were pretty good. There is a 3-5 year lag for many major economic programs before we see how they really panned out...

5) I've heard neither candidate even mention funding for the Arts in our schools...

6) I'm torn between not wanting all the power in one party and wondering if that's really, for better or worse, the best way to try and forge a new direction...

7) I think experience is over rated in Washington...

8) Intelligence/brains matter and again, IMO, McCain just doesn't measure up...

9) The country would benefit from a legitimate 3 party system...

10) Call me gullible, call me stupid, whatever...I have two college degrees and have lived through raising a mentally challenged daughter who put us through everything you can think of...I'd like to think I'm a somewhat educated middle aged man, who's worked in both corporate and private business for over 30 years, succeeded in both my marriage and raising our kids, (btw, the child mentioned above just completed her 5th straight honors list semester at College...) I feel like I'm pretty aware of things and that I give important things some serious thought before coming to an opinion...

I hope, think and pray Barack Obama will be the right person for the job. Of the two options, he resonates with me far more than JM does...

We'll see, eh?

------------------
Bill in Dayton
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#243906 - 10/09/08 04:53 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Slowly, bit by bit, the middle class is starting to realize who the Republicans REALLY owe their allegiance to... and it sure ain't us. Sure, we're their base, and they still trot out the hot button talking points for us to get all riled up about, but when push comes to shove, it's their billionaire and millionaire supporters that reap the benefit of their largesse. (Not that the Democrats are much better, but at least we get a LITTLE piece of the pie )

While the economy is strong, we can delude ourselves that they really DO care about us, but when things tighten up, it sure ain't us that gets that $700B handout, is it?

You are on your own, my friends... better find a scapegoat QUICK, or you'll have to perhaps own up to the truth. While things SEEMED fine, you let the Republicans sell the store, allow their millionaire buddies to reap windfall profits from deregulation, while you wrung your hands over abortion issues, and protecting us against nonexistent 'terror alerts' (or barely effective) foes, and deciding the 'right to life' of brain dead cabbages.

GW should NEVER have been allowed a second term (and wasn't REALLY given the first!), but at least, after fawning over this 'smaller government, let the market regulate itself' for thirty years or more (since Reagan), you are finally waking up to what happens when the right is allowed to implement it's agenda without effective opposition...

The rich got MUCH richer, and the rest of us worked harder and harder for less and less.

Proof enough for me, at least. But maybe Palin's airline stewardess winking will keep blinding some of you despite all the facts.

Sadly, I think Barack will only get the one term, because eight years of Bush 'tax cut AND spend' have left the economy so bad, there won't be a penny available for what he proposes to do, and the Republicans in 2012 will hammer this as 'proof' he can't keep his promises. This isn't a one term problem, but I have a feeling the 'instant gratification' generation don't have the patience to let him have the time it is going to take...

And so it goes.
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#243907 - 10/09/08 05:55 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Yes, the problem with our society as a whole is GREED ... not by any one 'class'- rich, middle, or low income, not by any one group - white, minority - WHOMEVER that may encompass - whatever ... the greed is perpetrated by ALL people who 'have to have' what they cannot afford ... As far as the foreclosure crisis, are lenders to blame? - ABSOLUTELY - but as it has been said by others here, so are the borrowers ... Does anyone think for a moment that the people who cannot now afford their mortgage only have THAT expense that they cannot afford??? ... How many of these people are up to their ears in credit card debt ? Is that the fault of the 'lenders'???
My brother-in-law used to sell cars for a living - one of the honest car salesman I've ever known - He used to tell me that people would buy a car on their CREDIT CARD !!! - not that they NEEDED the car, but because they WANTED it ... Even when he told them they COULD NOT AFFORD IT, they would respond "If you don't sell it to me, someone else will" ...
How many people do not have health insurance, but yet have the latest I-POD or whatever? -TOO MANY !!! ...
I was recently in an SUV with a friend of my son. Now this young (40ish) man is doing well, but I get into his Lexus SUV and he has a built in navigation system, satellite radio, On-Star, and who knows what else. Now, he is doing well enough that he can afford it ... but how many people have navigation systems who don't need them and really CAN'T afford it??? ... and why do people need these things anyway??? If I'm going to take a trip to someplace I haven't been, I get on a PC and use MapQuest, Expedia, or Google to get me there ... and if I get lost I go into a gas station and ask for directions!!! And if I didn't have a PC I would but a map ! All of a sudden, a navigation system is a necessity that wasn't even thought of a few years ago ... And that's only one of the 'toys' people 'absolutely need today ! ...

As far as the presidential race is concerned, I have not made up my mind yet ... but there is one thing I wonder about ... And I ask this honestly - Why did Hillary make it perfectly clear that she would not be Obama's running mate? ... If she felt he would win and make a good president, wouldn't it serve her well to 'ride his coattails' for 4 or 8 years and then make a run as the former VP of a 'successful' administration? ... Or does she believe he will NOT be successful, and does not want to be part of a failing administration? ...
(or perhaps she just didn't want to play 'second fiddle' to another president )

As far as Obama is concerned, to me it seems that his whole career has been targeted for politics... Even out of law school, I don't know if he ever practiced law, or just used that as a 'line on his resume' ... And then, as the result of one great speech, he seems to have been cast into the limelight ...

I just don't know ...


t.
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#243908 - 10/09/08 06:03 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
PS ... I will be away for the weekend (starting Friday) to attend my 50th anniversary High School class reunion ( I graduated when I was 6 yrs old )... It's our first reunion ever - should be strange -

I am saying this because if there are any responses to my post I will not be able to respond until next week ... I do not have a lap top because I DON'T THINK I NEED ONE and there is no point in spending money on something I don't really need ...
t.
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#243909 - 10/09/08 06:26 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I believe there is a natural tendency to want to live a bit better than your parents, to slowly see life improve, to see our economy grow and prosper...

Now, that is all well and good when our politicians and economists try to set the economy so that, as it grows, we ALL reap the benefit from this. But when the tax cuts benefit primarily the ultra wealthy (did you feel 'stimulated' by your few hundred dollars? ) and everything that they control, including our energy costs, health care and our children's education (things we simply cannot do without) goes up at multiple times the rate of inflation, we feel stymied. And then, when a bank or credit card company comes along and offers us the ability to at least LOOK like we are doing better than our parents, that is a temptation few can resist.

You work your asses off, and yet you STILL can't afford what your parents had? That's an economy with REAL problems, and hard to accept when we can see the millionaires and billionaires doing better than they EVER have before. A century ago, it was enough to promote revolution in many countries. Now that we can't use credit to fool ourselves that we aren't being shafted royally, don't be surprised to see the mood in the US turn ugly, REAL fast.

We are FAR better armed than the Russian peasants were

Economic and class warfare is the last step in a dwindling culture. Either we start to make progress making ALL our citizen's lifestyles and opportunities go up AND down together, or we are no different from the French, the Russians, the Mexicans and everyone else that has had to have armed conflict before we stop hearing 'Let them eat cake' from the fat cats while we starve, slowly.

Don't think it can't happen here... we have a long history of using violence to solve our problems
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#243910 - 10/09/08 06:43 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
I believe there is a natural tendency to want to live a bit better than your parents, to slowly see life improve, to see our economy grow and prosper...

You work your asses off, and yet you STILL can't afford what your parents had?


I have no problem with the first statement ... But how many young people want to SLOWLY see life improve ... from what I've seen, young people today, when they leave their parents home, want the EXACT same things as what their parents worked all their lives for ... I didn't have that, and neither did any of our friends, nor did we expect it ...
When my wife and I bought our first house we bought a 2 family so that we could get some income to help with the mortgage ... was it more work for us? Absolutely, but we did it with the intention that someday we would have a one family home, which we eventually did ... how many young people today want to start out like that???


And young people today have more available than what their parents ever DREAMED of having ... but they want it NOW and that's part of the problem ...

t.
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#243911 - 10/09/08 07:12 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Yes, I agree, to a certain extent... but then again, we are the parents who often cosign for these things, when we should know better ourselves

The role of the media in bombarding our younger generation with the 'bling life', the fast fix, the losers mentality if you don't have the necessary gadgets cannot be overstated, either, though. The very media controlled by the mega-corporations, the shapers of public opinion and attitude. These are things we had to deal with to a FAR lesser extent while we were in our formative years (deregulation, once again).

But when we all see our basic living costs, our energy needs, our education needs, our health needs go up at MULTIPLE times the rate of inflation, it is a simple case to look around and go 'who is getting rich off of this?'. And it certainly isn't US... Nurses make less and work harder, teachers work harder and make less... the people that do the WORK are getting shafted, and the leeches that OWN the corporations are giving themselves $400,000 vacations and golden parachutes.

This HAS to stop. We don't want revolution in America, but we aren't exactly the most patient people in the world...

It is time to cut lobbying influence, cut pork barrel spending, cut tax loopholes for mega-corporations, and spread the wealth AND the pain evenly throughout our society. The rich cannot exist without the poor and middle classes (as much as they try to lock themselves away in gated communities and PRETEND they can) and we can't exist without them. But balance needs to be returned to a system that has tilted to the right and the wealthy for thirty years or more. Time for America to rediscover what a great 'society' means. Equality and liberty and justice for ALL, not just the wealthy.

Do I sound like a populist? I SHOULD BE... I am part of the population. As are we all. Not a serf for the lords to do with as they please!
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#243912 - 10/09/08 07:33 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Yes, I agree, to a certain extent... but then again, we are the parents who often cosign for these things, when we should know better ourselves

The role of the media in bombarding our younger generation with the 'bling life', the fast fix, the losers mentality if you don't have the necessary gadgets cannot be overstated, either, though. The very media controlled by the mega-corporations, the shapers of public opinion and attitude. These are things we had to deal with to a FAR lesser extent while we were in our formative years (deregulation, once again).

But when we all see our basic living costs, our energy needs, our education needs, our health needs go up at MULTIPLE times the rate of inflation, it is a simple case to look around and go 'who is getting rich off of this?'. And it certainly isn't US... Nurses make less and work harder, teachers work harder and make less... the people that do the WORK are getting shafted, and the leeches that OWN the corporations are giving themselves $400,000 vacations and golden parachutes.

This HAS to stop. We don't want revolution in America, but we aren't exactly the most patient people in the world...

It is time to cut lobbying influence, cut pork barrel spending, cut tax loopholes for mega-corporations, and spread the wealth AND the pain evenly throughout our society. The rich cannot exist without the poor and middle classes (as much as they try to lock themselves away in gated communities and PRETEND they can) and we can't exist without them. But balance needs to be returned to a system that has tilted to the right and the wealthy for thirty years or more. Time for America to rediscover what a great 'society' means. Equality and liberty and justice for ALL, not just the wealthy.

Do I sound like a populist? I SHOULD BE... I am part of the population. As are we all. Not a serf for the lords to do with as they please!


Diki ... I agree with so much of what you have said, except that my wife and I are not included in "the parents who often cosign for these things, when we should know better ourselves ", fro our children have not asked, nor would we if asked ...

Also, you talk about the mega-corporations that control the media ... let us not forget that it is a very "liberal minded" media ... And I don't think it was 'deregulation' that prevented us from being bombarded with "buy this NOW", rather the fact that SO many of today's devices didn't even exist ... We have ALWAYS had advertising, but now it is EVERYWHERE !!!

I agree that no corporate mogul should be getting a 'golden parachute' when the company he/she was paid to run is going down the tubes ...
As far as teachers in RI, they are amongst the highest paid in the country - and in most (if not all) school systems here, the teachers absolutely refuse to pay ONE DIME towards their health care coverage ... I don't know of any corporation where the workers don't pay at least something towards their health care ...
So "we have met the enemy and the enemy is us" and until and unless we ALL start to do our part, we ain't EVER gonna start to fix the problems ...

t.
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#243913 - 10/09/08 08:20 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
I agree, in the most part. But let us not forget that, while on the OUTSIDE, the media appears liberal (although Fox, Glen Beck and many others would HATE to be painted with that brush!), the people that actually OWN these conglomerates are some of the wealthiest people in the world, with agendas that are more 'bread and circuses' while they mentally rape a young generation.

Deregulation is EXACTLY the reason why there are 40% more advertisements per hour of TV than there was thirty years ago. Deregulation is EXACTLY why language and behavior that was prohibited in the eighties is common practice. Deregulation is exactly why there is less quality children's and pre-school children's programming than the seventies...

And teachers getting free health care... Why should that be a problem? Something needs to be thrown their way to attract the better minds who could easily be making more in the civilian sector for the same level of work (you know how stressful that job can be, these days!). Why not attack the question of WHY the health care system in our country is spiraling out of control with prices... If we payed the same for health care as most European nations, we could AFFORD for them to have this. And I live in the South, where many states have the LOWEST pay scale for teachers in the US. How nice it must be for you!. Health care ain't any cheaper, though...

Yes, there's plenty of blame to go around, on the left and on the right. But now is the time to FIX the problems, not hang the guys who created it. I don't get the sense from McCain that he is the man for the job. Barack may not either, but seems the better voice for change.

We already HAVE had change from the right... More than enough, thank you! We need change from a man that means to change things for the better for ALL of us, not his Keating Five friends and fellow millionaires. Eight YEARS of Republican agenda and here we are. Anyone really think that four MORE is going to fix this mess?
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#243914 - 10/09/08 08:59 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
tony mads usa Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/16/02
Posts: 14376
Loc: East Greenwich RI USA
I doubt that the type of deregulation in the entertainment industry that you are talking about is part of a 'Republican' agenda. Unfortunately, I think it stems more from the activities of such groups as the ACLU, for as much good as they may do, I believe sometimes go to far. In these times, if anyone tries to 'regulate' the language and content of TV shows, they are sued for violating freedom of speech.

And I think free health care for ANY individuals who can afford to pay into it is a problem ... because SOMEBODY has to pay for it - guess who...

And let me say that when we talk about the cost of health care, while there are no doubt some abuses, the general public has NO IDEA as to how much money goes into research and development of the medicines and procedures used today that were only a dream years ago ... for example, I recently suffered a torn retina ... I saw some white flashing in my eye and went for a check up and it was diagnosed. The doctor immediately set me up with an appointment with a specialist who did laser surgery to repair the retina the same day ... as I was sitting there looking into this bright light that was being shot into my eye, I could not help but wonder how many years and how many dollars went into the development of that machine ... but I thank God the effort and dollars were spent ...

And I have said in other posts ... before we start promoting the type of health care they have in Europe, we need to talk to the general populace over there .. because the individuals I have spoken to (one a next door neighbor from Germany) do NOT like it and would rather have something else ... including our system ...

As for getting rid of the people who created this mess, I am all for that .. but first, let's find out who they are ... As I recall, aside from the war, even as recently as a year and a half ago things were ok ... Coincidently, we elected a Democrat Congress and things are now where they are ... any connection???

t.

PS ... Any thoughts on my conjecture about Hillary? ... If so, I would like to hear them, in a 'thought sharing' kind of way ...

I have to go pack and get to sleep ... I have an early 4 hour drive to New Jersey tomorrow morning ...
It's been good 'conversing' with you.

t.
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#243915 - 10/10/08 05:24 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2202
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
Tony-

Hillary Clinton was never really a serious consideration for VP once Obama won the Primary part of this election process. The reasons are many...From the Clinton side, for her to take on a supporting role caused fears within her camp that it would hurt her brand. To go from saying hey, I should be the guy/gal for the job to, well, ok this is cool to to be a VP wasn't appealing.

Really, the Obama people had very little interest in pursuing her because of the massive baggage Obama would have to contend with daily with Hillary just down the hall. Also, relations between Bill C and Obama are chilly at best, and again who would want that combo looking over your shoulder. Too many strings attached to use Hillary at this time.

I do think there's thought towards making her Sec of H&HS so she can assist on a new national health care plan, but in reality-she may feel she can get more down that way...and not be "under" Obama as NY's Senator.

Drive safe!



------------------
Bill in Dayton
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#243916 - 10/10/08 06:25 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
This forum is read by members all around the globe, and the inclusion of US politics is badly out of taste here.
It's hard enough to stay civil on keyboard issues ... please don't voice your political views here. It's not the place for it.
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#243917 - 10/10/08 06:53 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Bill in Dayton Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 2202
Loc: Dayton, OH USA
All due respect Dave, this thread was titled "What about the bad economy?" It took about ten responses before, as one would expect, the discussion of the economy included the gov't. From there, it was a small step to the current political race.

Unlike a few countries I can think of, we're perfectly free to have a hearty debate and exchange of ideas. It has been mostly polite...more polite some some purely musical threads I can think of, honestly...

That said, this entire thread might be best relocated to the bar as its pretty far from anything musical right now, lol...

Nigel, will no doubt, let us know if he agrees...

Cheers...

------------------
Bill in Dayton
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#243918 - 10/10/08 08:02 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
This forum is read by members all around the globe, and the inclusion of US politics is badly out of taste here.
It's hard enough to stay civil on keyboard issues ... please don't voice your political views here. It's not the place for it.


I guess one of the pitfalls of spending most of your time working with "the kids" is that you start treating everyone else like one. The problem is, this board is made up of 'seasoned' adults who are perfectly capable of making their own decisions. It must take a pretty strong sense of moral and intellectual superiority to presume to tell the rest of us what to do. Administrator, yes; self-appointed supervisor, NO.

Truth is, politics (along with poker) is one of the best ways to shed a little light on what goes on behind some of those cyber-egos we've come to know as Fran, Diki, chas, Capt. Russ, Donny, Kingfrog, Uncle Dave (for instance, now we get a clue as to why he thinks of himself as 'Uncle' to the rest of us), DonM, SqueakD, et al.

I think that requests to prohibit certain topics should be made to the administrator and not simply issued as an edict by any member who somehow feels entitled to do so. Just my opinion, though.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#243919 - 10/10/08 08:43 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Chas,
Technically you may be right, but that doesn't negate what I think Uncle Dave meant.

If I remember well from previous occasions in the forum, or draw from experience in every aspect of life, "discussing" politics (even among seemingly mature adults) in a "closed environment" such as a forum or a company office is a perfect and quick way to produce chaos, hence the suggestion to "restrict" this forum to arrangers only.

Remember, in the past, even threads about arrangers have spiralled to hate mail and personal accusations that led members to leave the forum.

Perhaps the topic relocation to the Bar may serve both parties.

I was attending a sailing school class and the guys/teachers there said "Remember, when out sailing, NEVER bring up a discussion about those 3 things: Politics, religion and soccer... lest one of you will end up in the sea"

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#243920 - 10/10/08 09:22 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
captain Russ Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7285
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
I posted a similar question at "The Bar", with 12 total rsponses, including three from me and multiples from others. Looks like no-one really pays much attention to the Bar. My post there was before this one started.

Russ

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#243921 - 10/10/08 09:28 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by trident:
Chas,
Technically you may be right, but that doesn't negate what I think Uncle Dave meant.

If I remember well from previous occasions in the forum, or draw from experience in every aspect of life, "discussing" politics (even among seemingly mature adults) in a "closed environment" such as a forum or a company office is a perfect and quick way to produce chaos, hence the suggestion to "restrict" this forum to arrangers only.

Remember, in the past, even threads about arrangers have spiralled to hate mail and personal accusations that led members to leave the forum.

Perhaps the topic relocation to the Bar may serve both parties.

I was attending a sailing school class and the guys/teachers there said "Remember, when out sailing, NEVER bring up a discussion about those 3 things: Politics, religion and soccer... lest one of you will end up in the sea"


Trident, actually I agree with you. I rarely have a problem with anything presented in the form of a SUGGESTION.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#243922 - 10/10/08 11:16 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Quote:
Originally posted by captain Russ:
I posted a similar question at "The Bar", with 12 total rsponses, including three from me and multiples from others. Looks like no-one really pays much attention to the Bar. My post there was before this one started.

Russ


It is a sign of the economy today Russ, fewer people visit bars and they drink less to save money.

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#243923 - 10/10/08 11:26 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
If this was degenerating into a pissing contest, I think Uncle Dave might have a point. One of the reasons I'm still posting on this thread is that it HASN'T...

To be honest, we are FAR less polite to each other on arranger topics than we have been here..!

Perhaps, if civility is of any importance, UD could take his self-appointed moderator status and apply it where it might actually be needed
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#243924 - 10/10/08 11:29 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
BTW, the last hospital I visited wasn't doing any research on cutting edge new drugs... it was an impersonal factory of health, and STILL managed to rape me legally...

The only operation they seem skilled at was a walletectomy
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#243925 - 10/10/08 11:58 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
The problem as I see it with health care is I know and have known many people who will make $8000 PLUS for car and "toy" payments per year and claim they cannot afford health care. They feel it should be an entitlement.

They don't understand the MORE people that buy it the less it costs Individual policies are more expensive than group policies. We paid $230 a month for my wife with a $5000 deductible. (protect yourself against catastrophe not inconvenience)

A low deductible $1500 plan would have cost $320 a month so we would be spending nearly the same anyway. As it turned out, three years ago my wife had a bout with breast cancer and the $5000 deductible not only paled in comparison to the real costs we we would have incurred,She received MUCH better quicker and more complete care I am more sure because we were insured with a Good Company who paid and still does.

She had Stage One with no lymph involvement thank God but the bills were still $80,000 for treatment ans was able to CHOOSE a partial mastectomy and an implant. Which was far more expensive than a much simpler lumpectomy. She has Bone scans and MRIs every year and is tested within days if she suspects a change in anything within her body. Those without insurance I am convinced would not have received the extra care and more than that immediate care she receives and still does.

AS for me I have VA......Government health care. Needless to say I am buying a policy thiugh work for myself.

The bottom line is Many people who can afford a couple car payments can afford health care and drive a used car. Its all about choices and responsibility. Health care is not a right reflected in the constitution it's a RESPONSIBILITY of the individual. People choose to smoke,take part in dangerous activities,over eat, eat junk food,....we are a very unheathy society BY CHOICE,,

It always comes down to personal responsibility and choices, Something people in the USSR didn't have to worry about. Their choices were made for them!!!


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 10-10-2008).]
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#243926 - 10/10/08 03:42 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
So Chas, are you doing any sailing since taking the class?

Gary
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PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#243927 - 10/10/08 04:19 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:
So Chas, are you doing any sailing since taking the class?

Gary


I'm sure there's a meaning there but you give me way too much credit; I have no idea what you're talking about.

chas
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#243928 - 10/10/08 07:01 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Sorry Chas. I read through the 80 or more posts and confused you with Trident, who posting something about sailing classes he took. My mistake--too many hours playing during the past couple weeks, and too damned many posts to read and re-read. I'm gonna' take three days off, go sailing on Chesapeake Bay, enjoy the weather and get away from this damned computer for a while.

Cheers,

Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#243929 - 10/10/08 07:29 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Quote:

I rarely have a problem with anything presented in the form of a SUGGESTION.


My "suggestion" was just that...and in the form of a plea...hardly a demand or talking down to anyone. See what talking politics does to some people? I'm just asking ... not telling anyone.

[This message has been edited by Uncle Dave (edited 10-10-2008).]
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#243930 - 10/11/08 12:21 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Diki Offline


Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
This forum is read by members all around the globe, and the inclusion of US politics is badly out of taste here.
It's hard enough to stay civil on keyboard issues ... please don't voice your political views here. It's not the place for it.


Not exactly worded like a suggestion... more like a polite command, IMO.

Not to mention your opinion of it's taste or not offered as fact.

We take you on your word it was merely a suggestion... your post however, could easily be misinterpreted (and was!)

Let's get back to arguing about politics... it was politer, then
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#243931 - 10/11/08 05:24 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Wis Offline
Member

Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 295
Today I took the time to read this whole thread and I must say this is a great discussion of well informed musicians.
It is very nice to read many of your statements.

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#243932 - 10/11/08 07:33 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Quote:
Originally posted by travlin'easy:
So Chas, are you doing any sailing since taking the class?

Gary


Yes and no, Gary. Would like to do more didn't

We did a "test trip" trip after the end of class (test my @ss, we encountered 5-6 Beaufort winds going there), on an island ~12NM away, stayed for the night and returned.

And I had another trip, island about 40NM away.

I'll try to do more, it is a very relaxing an pureifying experience.

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#243933 - 10/11/08 08:40 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
Dreamer Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 02/23/01
Posts: 3849
Loc: Rome - Italy
Quote:
Originally posted by trident:

We did a "test trip" trip after the end of class (test my @ss, we encountered 5-6 Beaufort winds going there), on an island ~12NM away, stayed for the night and returned.


Ah... nothing like a little meltemi to get you going...
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#243934 - 10/11/08 03:34 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15556
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Trident,

Those kind of winds will really put you and the boat to the test. Just got back after covering about 38 NM today. Unfortunately, the winds died early in the afternoon so I had to motor the last 14 miles back to the marina. Hopefully, tomorrow's winds will be a bit better.

Cheers,

Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!

K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)

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#243935 - 10/11/08 09:08 PM Re: What about the bad economy?
Lucky2Bhere Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 533
For the record, I didn’t read anything in Uncle Dave’s infamous statement (about this thread being a non-musical topic and not belonging here) where he came across as a “self-appointed supervisor.” I think he was trying to say we’re on this site to talk about “music”...and music is something that is joyful, fun, uplifting, and an ESCAPE from painful issues...like this crumbling economic situation that we hear about 24 hours a day no matter where we go. Let’s face it, I can pick up any newspaper or watch any channel on TV or sit in on any discussion group if I want opinions on how “the sky is falling” and WHY! I come to this site to get away from that. I don’t even want to be reminded of it in a “thread heading” as I’m going down the list!

I learned many years ago, that talking about how dire a situation is only reinforces it in your psyche and escalates the speed in which it will bring you down. Conversely, talking and thinking about beauty (art, music, nature, Tyros 3, mega-arrangers, etc) will counter what you have no control over. Thoughts make or break you!

So now why did I read these whole three pages so far? Because I thought there would be some real talk on how you folks are trying to work around OR work through this crisis...both as part of the masses of people that are feeling the wrath of a decomposing financial system, and, of course, as professional MUSICIANS.

No disrespect to what anyone wrote here...you’re all very intelligent, you’re all in the “know” and you’re all fully aware of the ball of string that is slowly unwinding. But I have to give credit to Diki. He wrote the only real positive and very poignant statement that no one picked up on (or, at least, no one commented on).

It’s “two” sentences he wrote in one of his dialogues and it's at the end of a paragraph...anyone care to guess what he said?

Lucky

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#243936 - 10/12/08 02:55 AM Re: What about the bad economy?
trident Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/22/04
Posts: 1457
Loc: Athens, Greece
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer:
Ah... nothing like a little meltemi to get you going...



Yes, a little "meltemi" that made one of the other boats broach!

There is a photo on the frappr in the end of this page that show me playing captain... (the next day, when everything was calm )

PS I hope your good health returned Andrea.

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