Maybe this has been posted already. I haven't been getting caught up in the hype. However you can click this photo and it is really big and clear. http://tinyurl.com/6rk9vh
DonM

So still no proper drawbar set (only eight sliders, unless they're using that off-set one as the 16')?

How much wider do you think they can make this thing? Pretty soon it's going to fall off just about every keyboard stand out there. LOL Just kidding, but really, the new T3 looks to be really wide; front to back.

Oh and those wonderful 76 keys! ....NOT!

------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Wow...looks impressive(especially the sliders), and, from the on-line demos, sounds impressive as well.

Can't wait to get my demo model and start exploring the great new features.

It's going to be a fun autumn for sure.

Ian the Excited

Ian,

Why is it that every keyboard "Yamaha" makes is great in your world? I wonder if the fact you work for Yamaha has anything to do with it? Your credibility is weak because of your failure to show any type of objectivity towards Yamaha products. This isn't Candyland and everything Yamaha makes is not "perfect", far from it! It seems you live in a world with blinders on when it comes to Yamaha products.

So the Tyros 3 has 9 tiny sliders, BFD. It looks nearly identical to the Tyros 2 with the addition of some sliders and a few button changes. I almost forgot, they smoothed the corners of the case out, how impressive! I see no groundbreaking technology within the T3, its styling, or sound demo's so what's so impressive? If the Tyros 3 was made by Roland, Korg, Ketron, Wersi, or even Casio I'll bet you wouldn't be impressed at all. Without the big "Y" on the front its simply not worth touting in Ian Land.

Perhaps instead of "Ian the Excited" it should be "Ian the Yamaha whore"? What you are doing is certainly pandering. I've sold high end pro audio gear and at least when my clients asked me about products I let them know the pitfalls and the positives of each product and I didn't try to hawk anything just to sell a particular brand or product. To stand up on a soapbox and proclaim everything Yamaha makes caters to everyone is simply ridiculous and shows a complete lack of integrity on your part.

Thanks for letting everyone know just how blatantly ignorant and coarse you are, Mr Ensnoreyou.

Your post fails to curb my enthusiasm for the Tyros3...it will be a winner for sure..

Yamaha is simply the best in my opinion...that's why I work for them.

Faults I may have...being wrong is not one of them.

Envy is a terrible curse...you should seek professional help...Fran may be kind enough to share his analyst with you...if you can get past the Roland suit and tie.

Ian

Real T3 pics........
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=15125.0

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-26-2008).]

Ensnareyou,
There is no reason for that kind of post about Ian. He is a nice guy and very supportive.

Why say such things?

Lee

Ian,

I would never try to curb your enthusiasm for any Yamaha product as that would be fruitless. I'm certain the Tyros 3 will sell well although whether that would classify it as a "winner" would be subjective. Yamaha's bean counters will determine whether or not enough profit is made to call it a winner for them. It is after all their only concern, to make money.

It's clear to me you don't have any other opinions except "Yamaha is best" because the Yamaha Puppet Master won't let you say anything without it being approved first. It's the same reason other Yamaha employees who lurk on this board would never say anything contrary to what Yamaha wants them to even if their opinions differ from their employers. As I said before, your tongue and hands are tied when it comes to being objective about Yamaha and that's evident. Claim whatever you want but you can't and won't be objective about a Yamaha product, it's as simple as that. Anyone else would classify that as a major fault but you see it as a positive. Only in "Ian Land" does that work.

I'm not sure why you'd think I would "Envy" anyone or anything and to imply that is ludicrous. If I wanted a Tyros 3 I could buy one. The same could be said for any other product out there. I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy whatever works best for me and price is not a consideration when it comes to my buying decisions. What matters to me are build quality, features, sounds, ease of use, a well laid out GUI, and whether or not the instrument can do what is claimed of it. Expandability and software support are important as well but not as important if the product meets my needs from the onset.

I hear K-Mart is having a blue light special on balls. Perhaps you should go out and buy yourself a pair and then maybe you'll start being more objective in your opinions. All that's "Y' is not grand.

I merely said Ian was prostituting himself for Yamaha and can't be objective regarding Yamaha products. Did I miss something? Have you ever read an objective post from Ian regarding a Yamaha product? Bias is bias and no matter how you try and sugar coat it, Ian is employed by Yamaha and cannot be objective towards them.

Ian had no problem telling me I should seek professional help and that I should ask Fran for his Analysts contact info. That in and of itself isn't what I would call nice. Obviously you see things differently.

Sorry, Ensnoreyou...I won't be baited into having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

I've got more important things to do...like play my Yamaha.

Have a nice day.

Ian

So you think I wasn't nice? Let me apologize.

I am very sorry that you need professional help.

Ian

Ian, perhaps the reason you are often met with hostility from some members is because even though this is the "general arranger" forum..., YOU like so many in the past have turned it into a PRO YAMAHA forum. In the past this forum had a serious bias for Yamaha keyboards and there were quite a few complaints about that.

That's great you support Yamaha.., but YOU often (trying to keep it not so obvious) snub any keboard mentioned here that's not Yamaha, and you do the same thing to members as well.

If you like Yamaha.., that's great. Keep enjoying their products, but stop with the smart ass comments. You say you won't fall into being baited yet you do the same damn thing to try and bait someone else with a smart ass remark.

On the topic of the pic. WOW those slider have a very short throw on them! I still don't understand why they keep making the darn shell so big though. The Tyros started with a floppy (which we often joked about as a cup holder too), but with the Tyros 3.., why in the hell are they still wasting all that space around the USB jack? They could easily shave off an extra inch or two-AND make the board lighter, which Im sure will please many.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-26-2008).]

Post from YPKO forum

......."returned to the MIAC Show today for a second look at the T3. This time I had a better Digital Camera. I am posting 7 photos….first 3 in this Post (max of 1500kb per post I understand) and the last 4 in a followup post(s)

Unfortunately, today was even noisier than yesterday so it was still difficult to fully evaluate the Sound quality even with headphones on. The built-in Demo in the T3 has a
Comparison of some T2 vs T3 sounds….Piano, Organ and a few more. In general the T3 sounds seem to be more dynamic and even more realistic as far as I could tell (given the surrounding noise). The improved DSP is supposed to enhance (fuller sounding) even the sounds/voices which have not been changed. The Demos sound very good but I suspect they have been heavily edited using Sequencing software…don’t think most players will be able to reproduce those results playing the T3 live. However the two new SA2 buttons should be a great help for expressive playing and Yamaha’s demonstrator Blake used them in a nice demo of the SA2 Breathy Sax despite the fact that he had not had much time to practice with the T3….I can’t wait to hear demos from people like Michel Vonken in Europe!
The SA2 voices were available for Sax , Clarinet, Irish Pipe and Harmonica and they all sounded great. Some of the Piano, Organ, Guitar, Flute and Drum sounds are new/improved.. but they are not listed as SA2 voices. However they still sound very good.
Re The Styles from the T2….they seem to be all there. Some(most?) of them are supposed to have been tweaked/improved a bit but I could not tell with all the surrounding noise.

The on/off Power button is now on the rear panel.

Re Prices…..www.zzounds.com is advertising the T3 in the US for $3900USD …they state that the List price is $4,900 USD

For those who don’t already have a T2, getting a T3 for about the same price as a T2 I think is a pretty good deal….more features and improved quality for the same price(at least in North America). For those already owning a T2 and thinking of upgrading, I guess it comes down to factors such as:
-Price of T3 vs T2 in your country
-How much can you get for a Trade-in of your T2
-What’s your perceived value of the new features and improvements ( 80Gb HD, new improved screen, sliders, USB2, LAN port, rounded shape, SA2 , new styles, new voices etc) For many people it will come down to whether they feel the T3 sounds and plays much better than the T2 (which I feel is still a very good sounding keyboard).
Because of the surrounding noise problem I am sorry I cannot yet give a confident opinion of how much better the T3 sounds over the T2. You all will soon have your chance to try the T3 (hopefully in quieter surroundings) and make up your minds.
Finally some comforting comments. The production model T3 never crashed or hung up while I was there. Everything seemed to work well and hopefully this augers well for the reliability of the T3. My only complaint was the “non-intuitive” way the sliders worked sometimes when changing numerical level values (see comments in my first post). Might be faster to just use the Up/Down buttons like you already do with the T2. However for controlling the Drawbars, the sliders were reliable and worked quite well. Hope you find this Update and pics useful."

Allan
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=15125.0


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-26-2008).]

Great analysis Squeak...perhaps Ensnoreyou should be visiting you for help?

I don't bash other instruments, except perhaps in jest...read my posts...I do, however, value Yamaha above other manufacturers and will continue to do so as long as they make the best.

Just be glad for me that I have found the Holy Grail...I'm sure you will someday...all the best of luck to you.

Ian

Squeak,

Get with the program.... In Ian's World those sliders are perfect, the illogical waste of space is perfect, and the Tyros 3 is absolutely perfect with no flaws. Perfect! Who other than Yamaha could make such a perfect arranger keyboard for the masses? Simply perfect I tell you! 完全

Shouldn't that read "as long as Yamaha continues to sign your paychecks?"

Ian.., I rest my case with your last post. That says it all about your ignorance. I've already seen the light my friend. You're a one brand junky, and that's fine.

However MANY of us out there are not dedicated to ONE brand, yet you act like an asshole to anyone who doesn't use Yamaha. I could care less what name is on the board. As long as it does what I need. It could say Yamaha (Which I do happen to own.. Motif ES-6..,which also happens to make your S-900 look like a cheap Casio in terms of synth power, and song creation, but I fear something like the ES is probably too indepth for ya), it could say Roland, Korg,... hell the darn thing cold even say AVON and I wouldn't care.. As long as it did what I needed.

People on this forum want to talk about all the makers Ian. You want to tote your Yamaha Hitler mentallity..., well last time I checked there was a dedicated Yamaha arranger forum for that. However.., here WE like to talk about them all, and you constantly making smart ass remarks, baiting other members, and acting like Yamaha is the only maker out there just IMO makes you look like an ass. You're even a jerk to people who DO own a Yamaha.

Still haven't contacted Fran, I see?

Yes, it is lovely to be paid to play the best.

Ian

Nigel get the lock ready

What in the hell is the matter with you people? DonM took the time to post a great photo of a new keyboard, one that 99.9 percent of you have never seen or heard. It only took a few posts to turn his initial post into another pissin' contest. How in the hell can you say you don't like a product you've never seen, heard, touched, etc..? Does everyone on this damned forum have an axe to grind?

Instead of thanking DonM for posting a highly detailed photo, some individuals seem to think this is a great opportunity to write their names in the snow.

I, for one, would like to thank Don for posting the photo, and DNJ for the link to the other forum. And, unlike the above posts, I'll withhold my judgement pertaining to the Tyros3 until I actually get to sit down and play one. They'll probably show up in this part of the world sometime in late October or November, at least that's what's in the rumor mill.

Finally, I'm always amazed at the number of individuals that seem to believe they know more about designing arranger keyboards than the manufacturers. This isn't a brand specific thing, it pertains to all brands. There are about a dozen experts on this forum who should form a panel to determine the key size, key feel, overall weight, construction material, color, screen size, storage capacity, jack placement, and every other design feature that should be on an arranger keyboard. Then, when you have all agreed on that design, set up meetings with all the manufacturers, put your detailed, highly researched proposals on the board room tables and convince them that is what the general public wants. Who knows, you may soon see the keyboard of your dreams.

It's not snowing here, and at my age you can't write your name in the snow without getting your shoes wet.

Thanks again Don,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

Looks like you need to resort to name calling like Ensnoreyou.

Tsk tsk...I would have figured you were above that, Squeak, but I guess even us Yamaha boys can be wrong about some things.

Oh well...have a nice day.

Ian

I get paid for actually making music using many brands of keyboards, synthesizers, arrangers, whatever brand I need to get the job done right. I'm not a one trick pony nor would I ever be swayed by a paycheck to feel any obligation towards one brand. If a client wants to hire me they do so because of my abilities and my expertise, not because I use brand X or brand Y.

It's clear to me and anyone else with two eyes Ian that you are so entrenched up Yamaha's derriere that you can't see straight. Must be pretty dark up in there. Hopefully you have a Yamaha flashlight to help you make your way in the dark.

Oh, I'm sorry, Ensnoreyou...I wasn't aware that you actually played something.

Now, please, let's not keep hijacking Don's post...he was good enough to put up the great photo of Yamaha's latest and greatest.

Ian

I call it as I see it Ian. Hey I'll be the first admit I too have been a JERK to some members over the years. My problem with you Ian is your attitude towards anything NOT related to Yamaha on this forum. You (trying to be snug about it) snub any and everything (and everyone) not using a Yamaha. You even down members here who own Yamaha. You talk to me like Yamaha is something I know nothing about, but due to your ignornace what you don't know is all the major Yamaha keyboards I've owned over the years. DX-7, SY series, EX Series, Motif, and several of the PSR's. I've also owned quite a few from Roland and Korg.

Gary with all do respect..., when have you NOT known this forum to fill up with the usual speculation prior to a keyboard release. EVERY SINGLE ARRANGER THAT COMES OUT.., gets drowned in speculation before its release. That's nothing new here.

Understand that some comments have good ground too. I think short throw sliders can be an issue-I don't need to play the T3 to know that.... People are always comlaining about size and weight so would it be crazy to suggest that Yamaha shave a few inches off as they don't need all that space to the right that they've kept from the original Tyros as that space originally was for the floppy drive?

I am sorry you have had to be a jerk, Squeak...it must be devastating.

Call Fran...help is available.

Ian

Nigel...., please take note (just from Ian's last response) on his ignorance in how he tries to bait other forum members with his smart ass remarks. Now he throws Fran's name into it.., when Fran wasn't even involved.

He can bait me all he want's but that's pretty messed up how he throws in another members name to try and get them worked up.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-26-2008).]

Oh please, Squeak...you have to calm down...and stop being so serious...it's okay...you don't have to start crying.

You're going to bust a blood vessel.

We all know that Fran is a great guy...and is always willing to help the needy and the misguided.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 08-26-2008).]

Ian.., I'm quite calm my friend. I didn't take all those years of martial arts and not learn to keep my cool... I'm quite content. I just don't care for your attitude that's all. You often act very childish in the way you try to verbally bully others into confrontations here. If anyone needs to calm down I thinks its you, and you need to start showing a little more respect to others here.

Gary,

Thank you for your reason and common sense. I will be more thoughtful in my comments in the future.

Regards,
Al

------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Still no word on whether the music finder has been upgraded or not?

Exactly how old is this Ian guy anyway? Man, my 12-year old daughter is more mature than this guy. I thought this was a nice forum, with somewhat older people that like to discuss arrangers. Guess I was wrong. I'll crawl back to my own site.

And Ian, don't bother to comment. I can't care less. You're turning a nice forum in a complete mess single-handed. It's Nigel's call, but if it were up to me, you'd be looking for another forum to mess up.

------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl

Good for you Squeak...I too have studied Martial Arts...helps with discipline.

Obviously it hasn't worked very well for you.

That's why you resort to name calling and crying.

Pity...you're usually much nicer.

Ian

Sorry Burkel...but I don't take kindly to name calling...it's not nice and not mature.

I certainly don't mean to mess up this thread.

My apologies to you.

Ian

my one and only Yamaha...

Fran, you're lucking I'm not in Levit. visiting the family! That DX-7 just might come up missing That unit is in great shape too. Fran I might be out there this fall. My mother wants me to go with her (I think in October) to visit the family. Might even get my wife and daughter to come.

Oh Ian...., you may not take kindly to name calling, but those smart remarks of yours are just another way of name-calling. You just try to sugarcoat it, and if the word JERK offends you and you're so sensitive to that tiny little word..., then my friend all I can say to that is do a few push ups man and toughen up a bit. There are much harsher words than that! Now I did call you an a-hole and if that hurt your feelings than I apologize, but at the moment it just seemed appropriate.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-26-2008).]

Fran....Are you finally selling that "MINT" DX7 with all the original manuals?

Nope.......just teasing everyone...This is one perfect DX-7..

I know there is a waiting line to purchase that baby for sure if it ever becomes available !!

Squeak let me know when you guys[your ladies too) are in town..I will take you all for breakfast...

Me too .....Squeak hope you like Grits like me

I LOVE GRITS! When I was a young'n in Memphis I was eating those for breakfast all the time.

It's comforting to see that some of you need no assistance from me to come off as jerks

I feel so redundant on this forum!

Oh, what the hell... might as well join in

I thought it was amusing to hear Ensnoreyou (our resident Wersi 'expert') describe Ian as a 'whore' for evangelizing Yamaha while actually being in their pay. So what do you call someone that whores for a company and gets NO pay for it..?

Oh, yes... a SLUT

It's also amusing to consider what the chances of Ensnoreyou becoming silent about Wersi, were he actually to get a demoist position with the company. Slim, and none would be my guess...

But it's always more fun to dish it out than think for a second about what WE would do in the other's shoes. I am still waiting for him to make that 1600 mile trip to come and play MY G70 (that sounds MUCH better than any posted demo)...
-------------------------------------------------

OK, was that puerile enough for this thread? I think, with effort, I MIGHT be able to match you guys, but I just can't bring myself to dumb down far enough for it, come to think of it...

Diki the Redundant

Diki,

You'd be seriously wrong in your conjecture. Even if Wersi were to hire me as a clinician I'd speak my mind about any flaws the product had and I'd never be stuck commenting on only one brand as if it were a panacea. If the company felt they didn't want my honest opinion in the first place, then I'd not work for them. Unlike Ian who is paid by Yamaha and only praises them, I could never take that stance. Ian's opinions are as biased as they come and his bias is heavily swayed by the fact he's being compensated by Yamaha, make no bones about that. Would you give much weight to a keyboard review if you knew the company paid the reviewer to only speak praise of their instrument? I'll bet not.

Contrary to what you state I don't whore myself out for Wersi or any other company for that matter. I also don't consider myself a Wersi expert and I'm sure "Abacus aka Bill" would be a much better person to call an expert. I merely state my opinions based upon actually using a product (Wersi included), not hearing it online and professing to be an expert on it. Too many people in this forum seem to review products although they have never actually laid a hand on the product. I'm not sure how that's even possible but for some playing the instrument isn't important.

I appreciate your offer but I don't need to make a 1600 mile trek to see a G70 in person, I have played with a G70 several times at both trade shows and at local music stores. Yes it does sound better in person if that matters, most instruments usually do. I already have several Roland rack modules (XV5080's, JD990's, etc) using numerous SRX expansion cards that offer me more variations in sound than the G70 can so buying one wasn't an option for me. The G70 is built in usual Roland tank like fashion which I really appreciate and I am a fan of Roland's sound and always have been. I don't much care for Roland's lower end lines because they use cheaper AD/DA's that muck up the sound but their professional products are first rate. The G70 is definitely a pro product.

Sorry, Ensnareyou, but I have NEVER seen you criticize the Abacus in any form whatsoever.

And, to be fair, every now and again (I know it's seldom, but he HAS done it) Ian will post about aspects of the PSR's and Tyros's that could use improvement. So much for the 'whore'.

Where is YOUR objectivity, that you so demand from others? Let's face it, were it the perfect keyboard, one would expect at least SOME music to have been recorded on it by yourself, by now....

Usually, when demoing an arranger for the first time (with a drive that far, it would have to be the last time, too ) you have little time to do anything than call up the presets, call up the factory styles, and listen to what it sounds like. Ergo, a recording of someone else doing basically the same thing should be an adequate substitute for that first impression. Tactile stuff is secondary, at least for me, to the basic SOUND of the keyboard.

And, having ripped and encoded thousands of CD's into MP3's over the years, I consider myself intimately aware of what the encoding process has done to the initial sound of just about anything. This puts me in a position to extrapolate what the REAL sound of an arranger is, even from an MP3.

And I NEVER use the built in speakers for anything, far preferring my HR824's for home, and my JBL SRX rig for gigs.

So, tell me once again, what is the point of driving that kind of distance again? To listen to those out of date styles and sounds in person? Or to contribute to Exxon's disgusting profit margin?

I already use most of the VSTi's that would go in the Wersi in the studio, and have already decided long ago that in a live situation, the difference is not enough to warrant the expense and difficulty, not to mention latency issues.

And lastly, I tend to discount the opinion of anyone that can't bring themselves to offer ANY criticism of a keyboard, when employed by the company, and ESPECIALLY when they are not. As, I imagine from your remarks, you do yourself.

It hurts, to find yourself in the company of those you deride, doesn't it?

Diki,

I'm not being paid to promote an instrument or specific manufacturer nor is it my job to convince you to buy a specific brand. Also, there's a huge difference between me being "objective" and someone like Ian who can't be objective because he's on Yamaha's payroll.

I use and play my Wersi and other instruments but not as often as I'd like. Medical reasons have diminished my motor skills over the years so playing daily is no longer an option for me.

I wasn't aware I've never said anything negative about the Wersi but I can assure you if that's the case then its been because I haven't had reason to. Are there things I'd like to see on the Wersi that aren't there? Sure! But I'm being unrealistic as the things I'd want few if any people would ever use i.e. 6 upper parts, 4 lower parts, 4 bass parts, and at least 12 stereo FX that could be used at once. I like to do large textural compositions and having that many parts at once would allow me to play in real time with no tracking needed. The other thing I'd like to see is an audio expansion card that gives me at least 48 audio outputs so I could mix my music directly from the Wersi on my large format mixing console. A card that allowed multiple FX sends and returns (at least 12 stereo) so I could use my high end outboard gear in conjunction with the Wersi FX would be fantastic. Is this realistic? Hell no! I'd probably be one of only a handful that would want or use those features let alone be willing to pay for them. In this forum people cry over spending $1500 on a plastic arranger and there aren't many who'd spend $3K let alone $10K on an arranger/workstation. Abacus, I, and a few select others don't run with the masses but what we've purchased certainly allows us to do things other arrangers can't.

The Wersi does offer more than any other arranger or workstation I've owned or used, bar none. Of course you don't know that because without seeing one in person you can't understand all the possibilities it offers or its true sound.

If I were given a choice to use a laptop running numerous VST's or a Wersi, I'd take the Wersi every time. The manner in which Wersi has integrated the software and hardware is what sets the instrument apart. Lionstracs is catching up and once they increase the factory sound library on the Mediastation, it will be a serious contender for the Wersi. Until that happens I'll stick with the Wersi.



[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 08-26-2008).]

I can understand why Ian would support the products manufactured by his employer. The best employees really believe in the products and/or services of the company they're with.

He's crazy about Yamaha. I'm not. That's why it's best to take anything either of us (all participants actually) says with a grain of salt.

Lets all listen to Don and Gary. And, PLEASE, let's try to be CIVIL to each other!

We're all BETTER than what's reflected in some of the crap above. Remember, it's not necessary to take your clothes off to show your ass!


Russ

[img]http://newmedia.funnyjunk.com/pictures/0799[1].jpg[/img]

Russ are these your grandkids?..

Oh. Ok.

(Pulling up his jeans quickly and hoping nobody saw)



------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl

No, but if they were, I'd be proud of the little dudes! Really observant little smart asses. I LOVE it!


Russ

Burt another WINNNER! Keep it up (the pants, not...you know...)!

Russ

Russ,

There's nothing wrong with liking who you work for and believing in their products but there's no need to be so myopic either. If Korg, Roland, Ketron, Wersi, Lionstracs, or Casio produced the most advanced realistic sounding arranger the World had ever seen, Ian would still say Yamaha is best without ever having seen or played the other offerings. Where's the logic in that?

Lee, I can understand where you're coming from.

I just listened to some of your work. You've got the cred to support your right to an informed opinion.

I guess my approach is to try to avoid confrontation, even though sometimes I feel very strongly about something.

I don't think it's worth getting into a shouting match, but that only applies to my actions and reactions.

Anyway, NICE WORK!


Be Well,


Russ

Waiting line???? By whom?
Brontosaurus, T-Rex?
That is one classy paperweight,but the keys don't even register the full midi standard for velocity. I can get one cheap if any of you really want one .... although, I can't imagine why !

Actually, no, I don't know it because none of you ever post anything that you've done. Bill keeps posting a hodgepodge of stuff that sounds great, but no explanation on how it's made (I can do the same stuff at the studio on the VSTi's without ponying $10k+, and need little of it live), or stuff that sounds SO BAD, it beggars the mind that it was done on the same instrument.

Hence the confusion. And, I'm sorry, but without more in the way of example, and more objectivity about design limitations (let's face it, if it WERE the perfect arranger, would you even HAVE all that other stuff listed on your Myspace page?), I can't honestly put any more stock in want you say than I can Ian... In fact less, because he HAS been critical at times, and he has sent me some examples of him on his S900, I am prepared to accept some of the things he says. He backs up his claim of objectivity...

But, here's the rub. You still fail to look at the situation from any other perspective than your own (something you apparently abhor in Ian). You say you HAVE played a G70, and have made up your mind based on that. But put the shoe on the other foot...

First of all, let's assume that you couldn't find a G70 within a thousand miles. And then, let's assume that you heard some simple style ONLY demos (no real playing to get in the way). Now, let's assume they sounded TERRIBLE. Time after time, after time. And only the odd decent thing, and it never came with info on whether it was done on a stock G70, or a G70 controlling a laptop or computer VSTi (which it sounds like).

Would you be willing to drive 1600 miles to come and play it, even if I (and anyone else, from here) were unwilling to post anything to convince you otherwise, only to INSIST that it cannot be judged the same way we judge everything else? You HAVE to come here, or you have no right to say that those demos were terrible, leading one to reasonably infer that the G70 IS terrible.

I'm sorry, but I honestly don't think so...

I have read all the literature, I am reasonably up on what the Wersi's capabilities are. I can read a manual as good as most, and better than some! And I am intimate with what can, and can't be done on a computer based VSTi host. But what I can't seem to get around is just how poor a LOT of the demos for the Wersi are. Forget about just how dated the styles are, or the playing, but just the SOUND and stiffness of the styles...

Either someone is deliberately muddying up the water by posting the worst stuff he can find, or some explanation of this is due, before it is reasonable to ask anyone to just blithely take you on your word, and ignore the evidence in our ears...

Anyway, like I said, were you in the IDENTICAL position that the rest of us find ourselves, I believe you would be much closer to our position. I know it's not your job to sell me on the Wersi. But it's also not your job to tell me I'm wrong to judge lousy demos on their face value if you can't prove otherwise. You would expect me to back up my words if they were totally contrary to your experience (listening IS an experience) and I was so adamant that it was YOU that knew nothing.

What about your Myspace music? What of that was done on the Wersi? Surely SOMETHING? I liked it very much, BTW. Had a great eighties vibe...

Back to the Wersi.... Why not a generic PCI Lightpipe card for it? It's computer based. Plenty of cards with 24 or more digital outputs for breakout purposes. A $10k+ keyboard should offer this, one would have thought...

Dave, apparently you forgot what Grey Matter Response added to the DX-7..

This has version 2 "E"...and you never seen a DX-7 this mint and stored in a non smoking home..Babied isn't the proper word..

BTW: It isn't for sale..It is sitting next to my 1963 accordion..

Like the DX7?

Try NI FM7 VSTi. Patch compatibility, plus analog filters (modeled, anyway) and a host of other additions. Far less aliasing and noise (unless you want it ) and some amazing presets. Cheap, too...

BTW, I have an E! Grey Matter DX7 as well. It was worth it for the massive patch storage alone, never mind the improvement in MIDI capabilities. Wore my first, original DX7 out during the eighties... got one within weeks of it's launch when they were harder than hen's teeth to find, in a Mom and Pop store in Youngstown Ohio who had no idea what they had. While everyone else was paying OVER list for theirs, I got a nice discount!

The current one sits in the case, waiting for me to open my museum...!

Today has been a good day! I've seen the latest BIG picture of Tyros3, and read many posts at several forums. Yamaha Canada offered some reviews and I am getting woozy dreaming about Tyros3. I love the bickering here, especially this topic, and some of you getting your pee pees slapped by Gary. Maybe that's why I come here every day. It's so predictable.............like an old friend. I'm proud to be a Yamaha fan and know Tyros3 will be a winner for some of us. But some of the others are just destined to rain on our parade. I would never bash a Roland or Korg like Yammie gets bashed here. But then again.......that's just me. -charley

p.s. I can't wait to read tomorrow's deflammatory posts!!!! hehehehehehe

More from the YPKO forum.....

"I agree with your comments re Updates above. This is the sensible approach that virtually all manufacturers take...doesn't matter what the product is.. Yamaha is building incrementally on the technology they developed for T1 and T2.....adding new features/capabilites as the technology improves/evolves. The Operating system and User Interface is remaining quite consistent and familiar...just extensions for the new capabilities. That makes sense..you don't want your customers to have to completely relearn a new User Interface with every product. That is the Challenge...to retain a consistent,intuitive user interface while adding new underlying technology/hardware /software.
Sometimes the new technology is so radically different that the complete architecture of the OS might have to change(rewrite required) and the User Interface may have to change as well. This often results in the New Generation products being incompatible with the previous ones.

I am happy that with the T3, Yamaha has been able to add new technology SA2 (new sound engine), improved DSP and other new features while retaining the Same basic User Interface.

Most importantly, the Production Model T3 which I played never once froze or hung up unlike many other newly introduced computer products. While much more real world experience is needed to tell for sure, this augurs well for the Reliability of the T3.

By the way I've used the Korg PA800 arranger ( latest generation) quite a bit and in my
humble opinion...Out of the Box , the Sounds and Preset capabilities of the T3 ( and even the T2) are far better. The T3 sounds are so much more Lively, Bright , Dynamic and the numerous styles are so immediately usable....with the PA800 a lot of tweaking/customizing has to be done to make many of the Sounds/Styles approach what you get out of the Box with the T3.
Mind you, the Korg PA800 is a good arranger with nice capabilities for Pros/Live playing( Dual Sequencers, Sampling, change key/tempo of Mp3 files, Guitar mode for Style Creation, etc) but it takes a lot of tweaking to get exactly what you want. I am blown away by how good T3 (and even T2) sounds out of the Box. Much better User Group/Forum support as well. Just my two cents."

Allan

I'm wondering what Navagtional changes,Music finder directory & VH changes if any will be included in T3? Sound & Style wise Im content for now...

The really annoying thing about Yamaha's top arranger keyboards is that they never upgrade the OS? Oh, they fix major bugs, but no incremental improvements like other manufacturers like Roland and Korg. Right now I'm awaiting a major OS release for the Pa2xpro that is supposed to introduce new features. Why doesn't Yamaha do this? Instead they just build a new Keyboard???

Quite Puzzling???


------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Yamaha's approach to "upgrade" isn't through new features added to the OS when it comes to their top arrangers. It has been clear over the years that their concept of upgrading in terms of OS is by purchasing the new model. If they gave you all those OS updates and feature additions who would buy the newest model.

It sucks that they're this way because they sure as hell don't do this for their pro synths (at least over the more recent years). Roland released the G.., then Yamaha releases an OS update to ADD features to the XS that compare to the Fantom G. Yamaha knows the uproar they'd get from customers in the pro synth area if they did the same thing to them as they do with the pro arranger owners.

I agree with the poster as well.

Yamaha has made a very wise move in keeping a consistant user interface and OS.


Ian

Ian agrees with another poster regarding Yamaha, I'm shocked. NOT! His answers are always pro Yamaha.

Of course the UI and OS aren't going to change, all they do is add a few new sounds, say they've created a new fangled sound generator (SA, SA2), and market the hell out of it as if it's all new. Rehashed crap is exactly that. If you buy into the hype then Yamaha will keep repeating the process offering little improvements in each new arranger.

As Squeak points out the Yamaha professional products division would have a very difficult time getting by with paltry offerings on new workstations. For some reason arranger users get the shaft and most of you seem to take it without question.

I jumped off the Yamaha train when they lied about adding features and updates with the 9000 PRO. It was supposed to be future proof but that future only lasted a few months before I saw the writing on the wall. It didn't take Yamaha long to discontinue the 9000 Pro and leave owners hanging with no new updates. Yamaha's primary concern is to sell you another arranger, not offer OS updates to make the product you already own better.

Correctomundo, Ensnoreyou!

Certainly Yamaha aren't perfect...I have mentioned upgrades I would like to see, but just like the way you feel about Wersi...I really can't find much I'd like changed.

Yamaha arrangers aren't perfect...just the best, in my opinion.

Don't like my pro Yamaha opinions?

Don't read my posts.

Have a nice day.

Ian

Though I do not currently own a Yamaha, I can report that one discerning user chose Yamaha, over a more economical model of a competing company because the keyboard "felt right" and "sounded better". They could not quantify their choice by any other terms.

Still amused to hear Ensnare berate Ian for not being critical of Yamaha, but when asked to come up with things that could work better on Wersi's, he can't find any (extra hardware don't count... Many of us would be happy with lots of physical outputs and insert points, but it's hardly an OS thing, or sounds and styles, is it?)...

So Ian's Yamaha is perfect for HIM, but he's a 'whore'. Lee's Wersi is perfect for him, but that is just a FACT? Uncritical analysis is only bad if it's someone ELSE doing it?

That mote in Ian's eye looks smaller every day...

'I thought it was amusing to hear Ensnoreyou (our resident Wersi 'expert') describe Ian as a 'whore' for evangelizing Yamaha while actually being in their pay. So what do you call someone that whores for a company and gets NO pay for it..?

Oh, yes... a SLUT '

That post almost made me spit out my cornflakes this morning !!!! :-) (made me genuinley laugh)

But gentlemen please let it end here. its already gotten way out of hand.

The user interface of Roland's E-Series is fundamentally unchanged since 1988.

Yamaha's PSRs have been all over the place during that time.

DX-7? Got one. And A Korg Micro. And a Hohner Clav. Got a Wirlitzer in the old brown covering. Just can't find them quickly, sometimes. Now, where did I leave that "primo" gut bucket?

Russ "junk collector" Lay

I hurried down to the last post to see if Nigel had put a lock on it.

He must be on vacation I guess..

Best,
Mike

Diki,

I'm not berating Ian I'm stating a fact. Don't you get that Ian IS paid to only praise Yamaha? If I were paid to do the same thing I'd classify myself as a whore for whatever company I was touting as well. The fact Ian spews praise for Yamaha at every turn should mean something to you if you were interested in buying a Yamaha product. An unbiased opinion from any party who isn't in the hip pocket of a company should mean a lot more to you than a biased one who is. I'm merely pointing out a fact, IAN IS PAID to promote YAMAHA products and is so biased towards Yamaha because of his employer/employee relationship that it clouds his judgment.

I can assure you I don't get paid by anyone to review any product and my opinions are my own and not swayed by others or by a paycheck. Be it Wersi, Roland, Korg, Casio, I actually play the instruments in person (what a concept), then I can make an informed decision on what it can and can't do. Sure one can surmise some things from specifications, a photo, or an MP3 but that's only part of the picture and I know that. This is why I hold out my final judgment until I play the instrument in person.

I think it's funny how here on this forum my opinion means little yet I have clients all over the World who have admired me for not selling myself short by promoting a product simply because I was paid to do so. I have sold high end pro audio gear and done consulting for many well known artists, producers, and engineers and they always knew that if a question was asked of me I'd give my opinion based upon actual use and comparison between other brands and models, not by venturing a guess. Clearly my opinion isn't valued by you and that's OK. If one person here values my opinion then I guess me taking the time to voice my opinion was worthwhile.

Even though I think your way off base many times by posting an opinion not based by actually playing the instrument in person (Wersi, Lionstracs, etc.), I value your opinions when they are based on actual use (such as those of the G70 which I already said is a wonderful instrument). Your opinions that aren't based from real world use I simply have to shrug off.

In some instances such as questioning why Yamaha put tiny sliders and increment/decrement buttons on an arranger that's a valid question even though you haven't played the product. Sometimes you don't have to play the instrument to question why they would do that.



[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 08-27-2008).]

No, my misguided friend, my judgement is hardly clouded, but your perception of me is...

I promote Yamaha products because I believe in the great value of their instruments.

Getting paid is merely a plus.

I play music for the same reason...because I love to play...getting paid happens because others enjoy what I do out of love.

Pretty simple...I'm sure you can understand.

Why does there have to be another motive...or is that what drives you?

If it does, then we truly have different agendas in life....but that's alright...I still think you're an okay guy.

Ian the Contented

Ian,
With all do respect I find it very hard to swallow that your opinions of Yamaha's keyboards insn't somewhat biased due to being paid by them, and I wouldn't doubt that you get some other perks as well.

I can't help but wonder if you had the same set up from Roland or Korg.., would you then be praising them just as much....

Obviously your opinions related to Yamaha keyboards are heavily biased. Be realistic now..., would Yamaha want to keep paying you or giving you extra perks if you weren't always singing praise to them....

Lee....

Trust me, Yamaha do not pay ANYONE to come here and natter with us old farts...

Ian gets paid to do the odd clinic and teach some arranger lessons, etc.. He isn't what anyone would consider a full-time web shill.

And, once again (because you apparently missed it), I repeat, Ian HAS been critical of some aspects of Yamaha's, and you have NOT been in the slightest critical of Wersi. Ignore it again, it's not going to go away...

Where is this reputed objectivity of yours? You are honestly trying to tell us that there is not the slightest aspect of Wersi's operation that could be improved, there is not a single feature on any other arranger that it could do with, and there is no aspect of panel layout, OS, sounds and styles that could use improvement?

The rest of us don't seem to have the slightest problem finding a problem with some of the sounds and styles, just for starters. And give me ten minutes on it, I GUARANTEE I can find something that could be bettered!

I have a whole forum full of things posted (at Roland-arranger.com) that I think could be improved on the G70, and, as you said, it is a VERY good arranger! So, c'mon, SHOW us this independence you claim. In fact, step up to the plate and at least equal Ian's objectivity...

If the 'whore' can fault his pimp, surely you've got SOMETHING about your girlfriend that could be nicer?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-27-2008).]

And squeak...

C'mon, for Pete's sake!

There are PLENTY of Yamaha (and just about everything else) fans on this forum utterly uncritical of their pet keyboards. None of THEM are payed by the company for anything. What's their reason? Why are they doing this?

Because they love the keyboard they own. If Ian was the ONLY person like this, you'd have a point. But, as he seems to be in a fairly big group, it is impossible to single out his employment as the reason for his opinions. He simply loves the PSR, just like all the other uncritical members here...

So, take a minute, and use just a little logic before you jump in with this kind of rhetoric. You've heard of logic, haven't you?

The Synth Zone chums are at it once more
There’s sluts and jerks and now one guy’s a ‘whore’
The tempers have risen to an all time high
Just making a post could bring a sharp stick to yer eye

It all started with a picture of T3
What’s all the hype? It’s plain to see
New features and sounds you’d think would impress
But for some of the readers, it’s caused great duress

Some cussed and fumed about the new T3’s charm
The words sounded like stuff you’d hear on the farm
Some folks jumped in to try to settle the feud
Said there’s little reason for being so crude

It was just days ago some guy said it was boring
Why, SZ was so quiet he resorted to snoring!
‘zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz’ the post read as a teaser
Well – for that guy I guess this thread’s a pleaser

Is it politics or the weather that’s caused all the fussin
Or is the T3 so great it’s drivin’ some guys to cussin?
Whatever the reason I would ask we calm down
Cause reading these posts one can’t help but frown

Cuz in the final analysis, we’re alike that’s for sure
A love of both music and technology is our core
So let’s please not forget why we’re all hanging here
There’s no reason we shouldn't respect ALL our gear

R/I

Squeak, I'm not saying this applies to you, but sometimes it's hard to believe someone is telling the truth if you would have lied in the same, or a similar situation.

If it does apply to you, then you have my utmost sympathy.

Questioning my integrity leads me to believe that perhaps you doubt your own...you know the saying..."you point the finger, and you have three pointing back."

I have been fortunate enough to support myself with my music most of my life...but, the money was never, and I mean, NEVER, the first priority...doing what I loved was more important.

It still is....

Ian

Oh please..., there's no logic to someone's opinions possibly being biased on a product (whos maker) just also happens to pay that individual.

I'm well aware of the large group of supporters who DON'T GET paid, but to say one's position couldn't possibly be biased based on compenstation from said company in itself is just "illogical".

I remember a time on this forum when we brought up the topic of store owners reviews and opinions "possibly" being biased.., and I remember time when we talked about actual full time reps posting and their opinions being biased. So how illogical is it to think that someone who is a daily poster here who happens to be compensated by the company he's rejoicing about couldn't possibly be slightly biased in his opinions.... That's not illogical...., that in itself is common sense.

I think it's great Ian loves his Yamaha. There's nothing wrong with it. Some people are a one brand player and there's nothing wrong with that either, but you can't fault a person who throws caution based on a members opinion who is also known to be compensated by the company.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-28-2008).]

Oh yes there is...it's just something that you are unable to grasp.

My opinions are biased because the product meets my needs.

Again, Yamaha is not perfect, but it is the best, in my opinion...and, I would say that whether or not I worked for them...in fact, as I said earlier, that's why I do work for them.

It's good to stick with the winners, don't you agree?

Now, back to the S900...the day is still young, and I have some practicing to do.

Ian

I most certainly can grasp it Ian... I've worked in business long enough to grasp that concept. If you truely adore them as you say then that's great, but for pete's sake you can't snub someone for suggesting bias based on the reviewers position with the company itself.

It someone on this forum was going on every day about the Roland G-70 or Korg PA series, or the Wersi (who happened to be compensated by that company).., they too would be met with the same response from other members as you have. Now that's REALISTIC.

No, I guess I can't, Squeak...unless I have made them aware that my bias has nothing to do with any compensation.

I have stated that fact several times...if you don't believe me...that's okay...I still think you're a nice guy.

Ian

Ian...., I never said I didn't believe you. You're not biased..., that's fine and dandy, but from reading and participating in this forum for nearly 9 years now I've seen A LOT of biased opinions.., and many of the vets here can say that as well. If you're not biased than good for you. You're a di-hard Yammie fan, and there's nothing wrong with that man.., but you can't get upset when I or others who have been on this forum for a long time (at times) may take some reviewers opinions with a grain of salt when one has to consider the reviewers position with the company itself. It's not to say your opinion doesn't count or doesn't matter..., but you have be realistic.

If I worked for Roland and was constantly promoting their keyboards here, and often snubbing other makers and those who play those models.., is it illogical to think that my position might be slightly biased? Also..., I've read your posts on things you dislike about Yamaha, but it's obvious in those posts you have shown some reservation in how you addressed those personal issues, but that's not to fault you as you have to be careful about how you express your negative views about the product if you're being compensated by the company.

My problem which has been brought up many times on this forum is how some members constantly try to make this a PRO YAMAHA forum when it's the general arranger forum. I remember a time Ian..., (before you were even a member here) when if a member said anything negative about Yamaha boy did they get a verbal lashing for it. So it does bother me to see history repeating itself here when there are many members who don't own Yamaha. I've been quite vocal over the years about my discontent about some of the things with Yamaha keyboards, and geez have I gotten hate mail for that. There was a time that just because I also like Roland..., myself, Fran, and couple others were suddenly the trouble makers.... It's just nuts really.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-28-2008).]

First things first...

I believe there's a HUGE difference between a manufacturer's DEALER coming here to promote a product (or the manufacturer himself, as in Dom's case), who will personally gain from doing the said promotion, and someone who's position in the industry is tangential at best (no offense, Ian!) who will not profit from his words...

Ian is a part time clinician for Yamaha in an obscure part of Nova Scotia (no offense again!). This is hardly what you think Yamaha WOULD send here to shill for them, were they the slightest bit interested in subverting our opinions (for all the good it's done!). I'm sorry squeak, but you know that Ian and I often have very different views about things Yamaha, but the one thing I am utterly convinced about is that his views and opinions about Yamaha have absolutely nothing to do with his occasional employment by a branch of the company up in Canada

He is no more, and no less than simply another of the interminable 'fans' that populate this forum, one of those that rarely see past the plusses of their choice of arranger, don't like to discuss it's negatives, and prefer to dwell on the negatives of other arrangers to keep the topic away from any discussion of it's own negatives.

I, at least, am utterly convinced that were he to lose his employment with Yamaha, his opinion about them wouldn't change in the slightest. Let's face it, how many of us could say that? Be honest.

In the meantime, guys like zuki evangelize other brands just as rabidly without any connection to the company. Given a choice between looking at the facts and deciding that either Ian is, or is NOT a shill for Yamaha, why not look at the company he keeps, and simply give him the benefit of the doubt. Once again, I say, if he were the ONLY one acting this way, you might be in a position to say without much doubt that his employment was the main factor. But given that, to be honest, quite a large percentage of the membership has little objectivity about their choice of manufacturer, Occam's Razor decides to simply place him in with all the other zealots merely voicing their personal opinion.

Why make it more complicated than it needs to be? It's not like he's George or Frank, actually marketing any of Yamaha's products.

the point is Squeak that you have made a connection that is just not neccessarily true. If i work for Korg and i love their products it does not mean that my opinion on the product is necessarily influenced because i work for the company. Thats a jump too far in your reasoning. Thats the implication of what you and others are saying regarding Ian and his enthusiasm for the yamaha products. That in my opinion is really unfair. Especially when you understand the tongue in cheek comments that Ian continually makes and the way he deliberatley teases and winds up some of the poster who go right ahead and do the same back ! I know marriages that are built on that kind of relationship :-) . Anyway i just thought it needed to be said.

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. I've already stated that I know Ian has stated his opinions are not biased and so forth, but is it a sin to either ask or request clarification from the person knowing they're also paid by the product maker?

However, I still stand in my position that it's not at all uncommon for a person to throw caution when he/she reads reviews and the reviewer is on the product makers payroll.

Like I said..., it's great Ian is so thrilled with Yamaha..., however his so called "tongue and cheek" comments and the real intention behind those particular comments are still debatable IMO.

Damned Diki, you hit the nail on the head with that last post. Either you're startin' to mellow out, or maybe I am, but I agree with every point you just made. Hmmm! Maybe I'm playing it safe for when I drive through Florida next spring--don't want to get shot at while cruising down I-95.

I've never looked at Ian as a company man. Sure, he gets a few bucks for demoing the keyboards, but I'm quite confident that it's a labor of love and nothing more. I had offers like that down this way a year or two ago, but had to turn them down because of a hectic schedule, plus it didn't pay very much when you considered the amount of time involved. They didn't want me because I'm a great player, because I'm NOT! They wanted me because of my knowledge of the Yamaha OS and how to interface their keyboards with other pieces of equipment.

Yep Squeak--I'm a Yamaha guy too, but I've owned lots of other brands as well. They all have a vast array of great features, and they all have a number of weaknesses. For now, I'll stick with the Yamaha brand for several reasons, the least of which is that it is the most comfortable OS for what I'm doing.

Good luck,

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

No, it's no sin, but once the person DOES clarify his position, you are somewhat in the position of calling him a liar (first a whore, now a liar where's the love? ) if you don't take him at his word. And, if you won't take a fellow member at his word, why ask for clarification in the first place?

If you've already made up your mind, why discuss it at all..?

I think you know me, at least from my posts. I don't take bull lying down After a testy start, Ian and I have grown to at least tolerate, and sometimes even appreciate each other in some ways. We've corresponded privately, he's heard some of my music, I've heard some of his (you know, the thing so many here are scared sh*tless about!) and from talking to him, I get the distinct impression he cares for his arranger regardless of whether he's employed by them or not.

Now, if he can persuade me (the eternal sceptic ), maybe you could give him the benefit of the doubt?

Personally, I don't care if anyone is employed by a company or not. A complete lack of objectivity is a pain whether influenced or NOT, IMO...

I think Thats an unfair conclusion. I sell Yamaha keyboards and can buy them at cost and chose the Korg Pa2x. I always and still believe Yamaha has the best acoustic voices and a more polished song/style sound. I ended up chosing the Korg because it had more features as a work station and the 76 keys, I was never enamored with the sounds compared to Yamaha but did like the styles.however aftermarket styles for the Yamaha are far more plentiful and support is amazing as well.

But after a few months and a lot of manual digging, I decided for me in the end it was all about the sounds and since I use it for recording the polished sound helps in the mastering process. The Korg is deep and full of features and has a nice live sound. I await the T3.

The T3 may give us the guitar sequencer Im sure to miss. We have a couple of very heavy Roland RDs so having 61 keys is not an issue just a minor inconvenience when performing out until a very light Casio Privia solved that issue.

The Yamaha is simpler to learn and use as well for me. I mess with it at the store everyday. I was buried in the Korg manual more than the creation of music. I really wanted to love the PA2x. But even after being given some major guidance on it at NAMM in Nashville in the end its about the sounds, And Yamaha knows how to sample their own instruments and is the only company that even makes pianos and most the acoustic instruments they sample.

It's entirely fair to pump up what one sells and credibility does not suffer when one believes in a product enough to be SUCCESSFUL selling it. Who can sell something they do not like themselves? I told my customers I bought a Korg and why. But I also told them with the sounds I used the most I preferred Yamaha. As far as a workstation the Korg wins hands down.

I have high hopes for the T 3, I don't think I will be disappointed. While I wait I'm borrowing a PSR900 from the store. Since we have since become Korg dealers I may even pick up a PA800 to go along with the Tyros 3 to fill in some of the holes for live use, if there are any.

IF the gap from the T2 to the t3 is akin to the gap between the 3000 and 900 I am sure I won't be dissapointed.

I've often read from many users on this forum that Yamaha arrangers have "polished sounds", "CD quality", are "great for the studio" and sound "real", but I'll have to respectfully disagree. Having been a recording engineer for over 25 years I can honestly say that with the exception of a few of the Yamaha SA sounds and some of their synthesizer sounds, I have never heard a sound from a Yamaha arranger keyboard that sounds so real I'd ever mistake it for the actual real instrument. I've recorded numerous Yamaha grand pianos, Steinways, Bosendorfers and there is not a chance in hell that the Grand Piano sound on the Tyros 2 or what I've heard on the Tyros 3 demo holds a candle to the pianos I've recorded.

I've also been fortunate enough to record some amazing vintage Martin, Fender, and Les Paul guitars and while good, no SA or Megavoice is even remotely comparable.

Perhaps my standards are too high but for me real means it sounds real. The drums alone on Yamaha arrangers are pathetic, wimpy, lack punch or presence, and are and Achilles heel in my personal opinion. My AKAI sampler from the 1980's easily rivals the drum sounds on the Tyros 2 and somehow I doubt the Tyros 3 drums will be much of an improvement. It's a sad day when over the past 25 years Yamaha still can't sample better drum sounds than I have on my old AKAI sampler. Sad, very sad.

I've owned and used many Yamaha products and while I find many to be an excellent value at their respective price point, Yamaha's TOTL arrangers are not one of those products I feel represents the value you pay for them. For $4K I except a lot and I expect the product to be as good or better than anything else it competes with. Yamaha's build quality alone bears little in common with the likes of the PA2X, G70, Ketron SD1+, and other similar TOTL arrangers. I realize many people on here could care less if their $4K keyboard is made of plastic and has cheap buttons, but I do care. I want to know that the instrument I purchase is going to stand up to everyday professional use and isn't going to be outdated in a couple of years simply because the manufacturer decides software updates are no longer a priority for them.

One of the primary reasons I did buy a Wersi was because Wersi continually updates their instruments rather than orphans them. If you bought a Wersi back in 2000 you could update it to the same specifications as the one made in 2008. Can the same be said for any other arranger?

Perhaps one day Yamaha, Roland, and Korg will venture out and start making arrangers that are more future proof but they still haven't jumped on the band wagon. Korg and Roland are at least trying by offering updates to their instruments that actually ad new features, not just fixing bugs. I've yet to see Yamaha ever offer an update on their arrangers that has added new features and sounds and vastly improved the instrument. If I'm mistaken in that respect by all means feel free to clarify that for me. What Yamaha arranger product has had new sounds and features added via software or firmware that significantly improved the instrument?

Yeah but your are not the TYPICAL end listener who does not listen with "enginears" In that regard Yamaha can fool the average listener easily. I know I play them in the store and the everyday people are amazed at the sounds and swear they sound like the real thing.

Pilots can tell the slight differences in flying the same model plane as well.

Its all about the end listener not some studio engineer who has heard thousands of sounds and makes microscopic changes to mixes believing the end user will hear the adjustment An end user who is actually listening to music in high Signal to noise environments, on Mp3s and generally background.

The last person I would ask about a CD I recorded is a studio engineer. They find fault with each other's work!! The average Joan or Joe is the final word.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 08-30-2008).]