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#240709 - 08/24/08 08:34 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
zuki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 4187
Diki,

You probably think too much/hard. Nothing wrong with perfection I suppose, but even the purist live harmony singers can be flat and crappy. Everyone has different ears, thank God. Give me a TC and a great/on key voice to lead it. Sometimes close enough is VERY good enough and some stuff we've all heard is downright amazing. How about that Roland harmonizing keyboard? Please don't tell me that isn't incredible. The best part is not having to pay my TC hardware after each performance.
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#240710 - 08/24/08 08:52 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 39544
Loc: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by zuki:
I agree........I said a "few", which would (in my ears) certainly include UD.

Donny, I have to say it again...you were the inspiration that lead me to check out the PA800 and I will be eternally grateful Your initial assessment was right on!

In time, I will let my work out of the bag. I'm about done with my studio setup and will offer tunes after that.


Zuki.....Thanks I really glad you gave it another look....its a fine arranger, with some great features.......good luck with your studio work.....Hope to hear some tunes soon also for sure!! keep us posted!

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#240711 - 08/24/08 08:55 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 39544
Loc: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Yep... it's great what he has done with this, but it utterly fails to convince me that those are real singers.

If this is the BEST the feature can do, that doesn't bode well, IMO.

Anyone point me somewhere with a different approach?


Diki your the 1%...I'm sure Dave's audiences love his harmony work on stag for years.99.9% dont know the difference....as a OMB act you have to do it all.

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#240712 - 08/24/08 09:05 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Sorry, Zuki, but my G70's harmonizer impresses me no more than any other (except maybe the Yamaha's, but that's just the DEGREE of 'bad', not 'good' and 'bad' )

You will never find me to be a 'my keyboard, right or wrong' guy. When it's bad, I speak my mind

Have you ever heard an Orville? It's an over $3000 harmonizer, basically the industry's best. I don't even like IT much, for these exposed harmony things... Bury it in the mix, and it's OK, I guess, but it just seems everyone that uses a harmonizer on an arranger puts it front and center, warts and all.

The strange thing is, with MP3 players on most arrangers these days, you'd think if the harmonies were THAT important, you could make an MP3 of the song, and have REAL harmonies in there, courtesy of your DAW... But no! Cheezy fake vocoder quasi-harmonies abound!

And yes, I know they are good enough for the audience. But they don't have to hear it EVERY night! I've got to be happy before they are happy... I bet you get a few people come up to you and tell you the sax sounds like a REAL sax player, too. But do you honestly think it does? Like a 'good' sax player, that is (anyone can play like a high school marching band sax player!)? No, of course not. It sounds 'good', but nothing like the real thing.

Same with harmonizers, IMO...

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#240713 - 08/24/08 09:21 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 39544
Loc: NJ

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#240714 - 08/24/08 09:25 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 39544
Loc: NJ
Diki

If you feel that way about Voc harmonizers in general...then I would assume all arrangers in general will never convince you either with their sounds because none of them sound like the real thing judging by your code....but your playing one!

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#240715 - 08/25/08 12:35 AM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
But I'm playing it with live bands as much as I can

Now, I've heard arranger pieces that I thought got VERY close to a live band sound. I've heard acoustic pianos that can fool even the pickiest of ears. I've heard brass section work, organ playing, flute solos, guitar solos, all of which get me to within a hair's breadth of thinking I AM listening to the real thing.

But I've never heard an arranger harmonizer that got within a country MILE of convincing me I was listening to a real singer.

Which is why I don't use it. I'm not saying the rest of you shouldn't, it's up to you and your style, and your audience. But I am saying that, IMO, of all the areas of an arranger's sound, it is the most hideously obviously fake.

But, who knows? There's a new generation of harmonizers out there that sound (to my ears) far better than any of the built-ins. In fact, a couple of things I've heard got close to the Orville So, who knows? Maybe this newer technology might trickle down into our new arrangers and make the effect less vocoder-ish, in the future.

But for now... Sorry, but I'll take a pass

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#240716 - 08/25/08 05:00 AM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Uncle Dave Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 11098
Loc: Philadelphia Pa, USA
Just a quick sidenote:
"Nightengale" was recorded on a Digitech VR. The TC unit in the PA800 is even better than that. I'll try to update that song one day soon, so you can hear the improvement.

No one really believes that a OMB is playing everything they hear, not do they believe that the harmonies are real, but they ar very convincing in the context in which they are intended. The harmony on the PA800 is on par with the ryhthm styles etc that "add to" the live arrangement. Sure, a ral, live vocal group would sound better IF ( big IF ) they were 100% in sync and in tune ... my singers ALWAYS are!

I've said before that I'd rather play a good arranger than a bad piano anyday .... same goes for the backing voices. If I can't have Manhattan Transfer with me, then the PA800 is my next best option. I'd much rather have the fullness and the added pizzazzzzz, then sing alone all night.o
I'd SOooo miss doing my:
Mills Bros
Beach Boys
Andrews Sisters
4 Aces
Dave mason (We Just Disagree!)

I'll never give up the vocals. Never !
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Everyone, and everything I listen to is my teacher. Every instrument, every voice, every sound in nature ... they are all my private tutor ... 24/7 for free.

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#240717 - 08/25/08 06:42 AM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3694
Loc: Motown
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
That's possibly the strongest point (well, OK, ONE of the strongest points!) of the G70 over the E60, Cassp... Hit one button, and all the sliders are IMMEDIATELY active as voice editing sliders. So the 'instant gratification' thing is just as high as a Juno106, ARP, etc..

Me, I'd want this LONG before I gave a hoot about the stupid harmonizer....



Some people buy the luxury car for the heated seats, while others buy the less expensive model because the get the same seating capacity.

Whatever...
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#240718 - 08/25/08 08:07 AM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Fran Carango Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 8959
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
I'm surprised too, Fran. Most true geeks wouldn't have a keyboard five minutes, much less 16 months, before getting under the hood to "see what she'll do". So what were you too busy collecting SMF's? Glad you were able to shed some light on that one-finger-chord thing, though. It's good to be an expert in at least one area.

On the whole busines of sound design, there seems to be a divergence between the super techy and the super player. There are always exceptions, of course (Wendy Carlos), but in my experience, their interests and goals are usually completely different. There is the supergeek/tweaker who is always looking for the 'perfect' piano but when they finally find it, it rarely inspires them to produce a great piece of music with it. Just getting the sound is what turns them on.

There are so many variables in every thing related to music that it's impossible to say ANYTHING with any certainty. That's why all opinions are equally valid (except mine, which is usually somewhat superior).

chas



Chas, you missed my surprise!!!..It was not a case of me not getting under the hood....

As I mentioned in the past...I usually find out more about a keyboard in 3 days ..than most folks do..in 3 months...

The point that I was illustrating....was the way the synth tones were designed...via the G70's simple but effective tools...and how well they worked together....Not something that most folks would even consider looking at....

I gave careful listening to some of the synth tones..and thought ..to myself.. ..How is Roland getting this sweep..or pulse...So I searched to see if I missed any hidden parameters...nope...didn't miss anything...So I looked at the simple tone edit page...started to experiment using the vibrato and filters together...and Surprise...I was able to duplicate the effects that brought the synth tones to life...namely the movement of the tones...

Chas, I hope this helps you understand this tech geek a little more...
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