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#240689 - 08/24/08 03:30 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
cgiles Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 5645
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Donny, I have to admit that I don't know much about the one-finger-chord method of arranger playing (I have honestly never tried it) but I have to believe that it is just there as an aid to a total non-playing beginner but never intended as a way to trigger sophisticated style loops which depend upon chord recognition. Also, how good could a guys right hand be if he can only manage a one finger chord with his left hand (unless he's Bob Dole). You may be right about knowing 'pro's' like that but I have to admit, I'm skeptical. I don't think that because that feature is there on an arranger, is any excuse for a 'pro' not to play it at the highest level it's capable of. JMO, of course.

chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

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#240690 - 08/24/08 04:20 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
My main problem with the One Finger systems is that it stymies growth, repertoire and musical development.

It's actually a superior system for controlling an arranger, in some senses, because the limited choice makes it MUCH easier for the arranger to divine the chord you want (or are playing, at least ) and to serve it up without ambiguity and the resultant glitches as you try to play a four or more note chord fast enough that the arranger doesn't have time to figure something out from the first two or three notes you play fractionally before the other one or two notes get played...

But it's major drawback comes from the tiny handful of chords that it recognizes, especially when you want to do inversions extensions and 'slash' chords. It makes you 'dumb down' the changes, whether you need to (from inexperience) or not. Especially in the case of the elderly player, who looks for a shortcut, but sadly usually wants to play music that has FAR more chordal complexity (jazz and swing, ballroom and latin) than most pop and R&B musics, yet alone today's three chord slacker cr@p!

It's all well and good to learn a system, but if that system you learn doesn't translate to ANY other keyboard (one finger systems tend to be slightly different across manufacturers), it puts you in a technological dead end, AND frustrates you when faced with any other keyboard than the one you learned on...

And, in all fairness, once you DO try to do more complex chords and extensions on a OFS, you end up playing nearly as much as if you had simply learned the correct way to voice things! But, of course, try to play that rubbish with a left hand sound WHILE you are triggering the chords, and you get mush and nonsense..

I think I also agree with chas on the fact that I don't think that anyone that CAN'T play decently with their LH could ever be described as being 'strong' in the right. Adequate... maybe (barely), but strong? Please I'm sorry, but being able to play a melody without much in the way of embellishment hardly qualifies as 'adequate', yet alone strong, and the interminable number of user demos that seem quite ecstatic in their own ability to simply get through the piece without screwing up the melody or basic chords (forget even playing in the pocket!) simply point to just how low the bar gets, sometimes, around here...

Blowing a decent solo, and reharmonizing on the fly are NOT the sole province of the technical jazz player. Darn near every pop tune out there has a solo of some kind or another in it. Are THEY content to repeat the stupid melody with maybe a different sound? Hell no!

If you want to grow musically, if you want to play older tunes with the CORRECT chords (not the big print bullsh!t), if you want to NOT tie yourself down to one manufacturer, one type of keyboard, if you EVER want to play in a live band, even for fun, you HAVE to learn to play chords correctly. And the sad fact is, it's no more difficult than learning the complexities of a OFS once you get past the baby steps of simple minor and major and sevenths.

So pull that One Finger out your asses, and spend a few weeks (if that) learning the proper way to voice chords! You'll thank me for it later...

I give the One Finger salute to the One Finger Chord system

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#240691 - 08/24/08 04:52 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Dnj Online   content
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 39572
Loc: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by cgiles:
Donny, I have to admit that I don't know much about the one-finger-chord method of arranger playing (I have honestly never tried it) but I have to believe that it is just there as an aid to a total non-playing beginner but never intended as a way to trigger sophisticated style loops which depend upon chord recognition. Also, how good could a guys right hand be if he can only manage a one finger chord with his left hand (unless he's Bob Dole). You may be right about knowing 'pro's' like that but I have to admit, I'm skeptical. I don't think that because that feature is there on an arranger, is any excuse for a 'pro' not to play it at the highest level it's capable of. JMO, of course.

chas


Chas just take a person with an accordion background where buttons vs keys is the norm....then the switch to and arranger KB.....here in lies the weakness....there are other scenarios also. Its also a very easy way for people to get started playing who might be up in the years and don't have the time or desire to go though extensive training, One Finger mode makes it a bit easier.

As far Strong right hands....
PLLLLLEEEEAAASSEEEE look at some of the rock band KB players with all their high C organ runs all the time & nothing to do with their left hands....lets start with maybe Paul Shaffer & countless others....

There is a difference & there is strong Right hands my friends....weak left ones combined.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-24-2008).]

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#240692 - 08/24/08 05:09 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Burkels Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 319
Loc: Alkmaar, The Netherlands, Euro...
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
yet alone today's three chord slacker cr@p!


Ok, I now HAVE to do this. I know English is not my first language and I don't mean to lecture anyone here, but every time I see you write "yet alone" I think to myself "no Diki, it's "let alone", not "yet alone" :-) Sorry. Had to say it.

And on topic: My grandfather grumbled something about "three chord cr@p" when Bill Haley came along. Nothing new there

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#240693 - 08/24/08 05:11 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
cassp Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 3694
Loc: Motown
All this pent up frustration. I guess it's OK to have a little pissing contest now and then. It HAS been quiet over the summer. I will simply say that I have one of the very few E60's around and I love it. If it had the vocal processor it would rival the G70, IMO.

As for Fran's original post, I agree that I rarely get past the first few levels of ANY machine. I have never been one to tinker too much with editing. That's way the Hammond drawbars are/were so great - you had immediate sound gratification. And you could save it if you really needed to OR you could simply recreate it live.

The last keyboard I tinkered with was the Juno 106 - made a great B3 patch - by accident - and saved it as two patches, fast and slow Leslie.
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#240694 - 08/24/08 05:32 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Jeez... it's hard enough to even think this stuff up, LET ALONE get criticized for my grammar by a Dutch guy, of all people! You can tell I've been over here in the United States of Amnesia a bit too long! Starting to talk like the President... Just weighing my 'nucular' options, here. What kind of retaliatory capability DOES Holland have, anyway..?

Nice catch, Burkels!

I guess I'll just have to return to the monosyllabic grunts and emoticon punctuation that mostly populate this forum.

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#240695 - 08/24/08 05:37 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
I have never seen too many piano players who play a 5 finger chord on the left hand, particularly below C3 or C4, gets way muddy down that end.

And I suspect that those who use "Full Keyboard Mode" are possibly mostly playing a max of about 3 notes with the left hand and in most cases 2..

You certainly don't need to be playing the root using the arranger bassline, and even less if you are playing the bassline yourself with the left hand and the rest with the right. I know thats the way I play.

One finger two finger, three finger, doesn't much matter if you are expressing your art in a way that connects with others and gives them a glimpse of you.

Dennis

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#240696 - 08/24/08 05:39 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
That's possibly the strongest point (well, OK, ONE of the strongest points!) of the G70 over the E60, Cassp... Hit one button, and all the sliders are IMMEDIATELY active as voice editing sliders. So the 'instant gratification' thing is just as high as a Juno106, ARP, etc..

Me, I'd want this LONG before I gave a hoot about the stupid harmonizer....

In the meantime, all those editing possibilities have MIDI CC controls, so a nice cheap MIDI fader/knob controller would give you the tactile 'instant gratification' you look for, without ponying up for a G70.

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#240697 - 08/24/08 05:42 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
miden Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 3353
Loc: The World
Quote:
Originally posted by Diki:
Jeez... it's hard enough to even think this stuff up, LET ALONE get criticized for my grammar by a Dutch guy, of all people! You can tell I've been over here in the United States of Amnesia a bit too long! Starting to talk like the President... Just weighing my 'nucular' options, here. What kind of retaliatory capability DOES Holland have, anyway..?

Nice catch, Burkels!

I guess I'll just have to return to the monosyllabic grunts and emoticon punctuation that mostly populate this forum.



Gotta watch out for high flying clogs..floating Edams and those windmill blades did poor ole Don in as well don't forget...yep, EU is gonna have to have words with em no doubt, gotta tone down da retrik orl right!!!

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#240698 - 08/24/08 06:00 PM Re: Surprise, Surprise, Surprise....
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by miden:
One finger two finger, three finger, doesn't much matter if you are expressing your art in a way that connects with others and gives them a glimpse of you.

Dennis


What's the One Finger equivalent of a C+7(b9), Dennis?

That's what I'm talking about. If you can learn to get this with a OFS, you can learn how to voice a basic Maj or Min with more than one finger, too. And if you CAN'T play this with a OFS, what do you do if the song needs it?

If you only learn the shortcut, not the real chord, how do you learn what is an acceptable substitute? Most people that use the One Finger system haven't the slightest clue about what the chord IS, and what it DOES. It's just a rote system they learn, which generally obstructs any learning about what chords do what, and what can and can't be used as substitutes.

But the main thing they screw up is the ability to sit at anything other than an arranger, and be able to play. Don't get me wrong... I know some people aren't the slightest bit interested in learning anything. And we've ALL heard what those guys (and gals!) sound like. The same desire for a shortcut for the LH usually equates to a lazy RH, too...

But some people MIGHT want to consider what a dead end this is, and how badly learning some of these stupid systems will screw it up for them when they finally DO decide to try and progress and learn how to voice chords correctly. I know several people that have confessed it was MUCH harder for them to learn real chords, once they had learned a OFS. They all said they wished they'd never learned it, now...

I think we ALL have music going on in our heads that is JUST a bit harder to play than maybe our ability is right now... The trick is to not get locked into a system that will NEVER allow you to progress without going back and unlearning the whole thing.

JMO...

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