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#239594 - 08/07/08 02:16 AM
The 4th piece is here!
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Member
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Israel
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#239604 - 08/07/08 01:15 PM
Re: The 4th piece is here!
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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Don't know about Wersi's, Bill, but record noise samples have been built into Roland's and Korg's (and probably Yamaha's) for quite some time, now (had them in the G1000, for sure).
The thing is, few styles ever use them, or the band limiting EQ that makes the clarinet demo so effective. But this is not to say they don't already exist on what you have now...
As I have said for a long time, most of the value in a new arranger isn't in the hardware. It's the new styles. Some VERY gifted people work on these, and Yamaha are some of the very best in this department. But, once you hear some of these tricks, it's easy enough to apply them to the arranger you have...
Getting the 'sound' of older recordings is often a case of use of careful EQ... 78's had one kind of EQ curve, vinyl from the fifties had a different curve from the vinyl of the late seventies. Apply these kinds of band limiting EQ tricks on styles you already have will go a long way to capturing that 'vintage' sound. Add a little record noise, and Bob's your uncle!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#239605 - 08/07/08 01:33 PM
Re: The 4th piece is here!
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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And I am still amazed at how expectant some are about a new Roland's capabilities (or even appearance!). For starters, forget the FantomG. Roland have NEVER incorporated this year's latest WS technology in an arranger. Took them over four years or more before they even incorporated OLD Fantom sounds and engine capabilities into the G70. And NONE of the Fantom's loop and audio capabilities were ever ported over. There seem to be clear indications that future Roland arrangers will be built on the Sonic Cell engine, which is firmly rooted in old Fantom technology. They don't have a product anywhere in their entire catalog that has anything like Mega voice technology (or what little there is is extremely disappointing, compared to even a lowly S900), multipads are nowhere to be seen... I am confused as to exactly what technology Roland already have that COULD be leveraged into a groundbreaking new Roland. In all fairness, even the FantomG is hardly a great leap forward, except in it's DAW capabilities. What's one of the things it touts the most? Yep, glitch-less patch changes (to a limited degree). We've had that on Roland arrangers for well over a decade... All I anticipate is a refinement of existing technologies, but to expect Roland to pull a rabbit out of their hat for the arranger division alone is optimistic, at best. One would expect to see groundbreaking technologies across the board if Roland could be reasonably expected to do it for the arranger division as well (probably their LOWEST priority division, from all indications ), but, where is the beef? Only modern techno and hiphop products like the V-Synth carry any kind of 'next-gen' banner for Roland, these days... Few of us will go wild at the inclusion of this in an arranger Fixes, refinements, a few more sounds and effects capabilities, MP3 playback and possibly recording, some new styles... To expect any more than this is wildly optimistic, IMO...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#239610 - 08/07/08 11:14 PM
Re: The 4th piece is here!
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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I can't believe anyone cares about the demos one way or the other... Unlike Wersi, MS, and probably Ketron, most of us will be able to get our hands on one of these to play for ourselves. So, if the demo is of a musical style you are not into, what's the big deal? When you finally play one, call up the genres that you are likely to use, and see for yourself if it is what you are looking for. There's far too much member generated hype here... Every arranger that comes out is supposed to be ground-breaking, sound totally new, and totally superior to it's predecessor, apparently. But for the life of me, I can't see where this has ever happened Every arranger is an incremental improvement over it's predecessor, building on the strengths that everyone liked, and correcting a few of it's weaknesses. A few new features get added, but the company is flirting with disaster if it brings something out that is 100% different from it's predecessor. Mind you, I find it amusing that the very person that expects us to take his word for how good the 'open' system arrangers are supposed to be, (please don't take any notice of the crappy demos ), is the one person that seems the most determined that Yamaha HAVE to provide HIM with outstanding demos, or they are unlikely to sell well! As far as I am concerned, the demos were fine. Hardly representative of the arranger, in a few cases (but I imagine they were put there to demo the latest SA voices, at least as far as the bagpipes and clarinet go), but how do you demo the T3 with just four examples? If you want to see what Yamaha are likely to have available for us to listen to by the time the T3 actually hits the stores, I suggest you take a look at the T2 demos page. There are dozens and dozens of audio demos there, covering every conceivable sound and style, plus direct comparisons between older T1 styles and sounds and the T2 versions of the same. Quite excellently put together, I might add. Yamaha certainly know marketing, that's for sure. But these demos didn't appear until the T2 was actually in the stores. As the T3 stuff will also be... Have a little patience, and don't even TRY to judge a complex TOTL arranger from a measly four short demo teaser... Ye Gods! "Instant gratification' gone wild!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#239614 - 08/08/08 11:02 AM
Re: The 4th piece is here!
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14182
Loc: NW Florida
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Originally posted by spalding: Unfortunately the demos dont show off the instrument for the better. Strictly your opinion, spalding... I thought they were fine. The SA clarinet sounded very nice, the jazz guitar was not too shabby, either, and the acoustic piano does sound improved.... What, exactly, were you expecting? GIGA type sounds? The T2 introduced the first time SA had been heard. Of course, that was a major revelation. But it seems unlikely that Yamaha will bring out something ELSE as groundbreaking as that, merely more examples of the same. More SA voices seems a good thing, doesn't it..? But, after all, it's YAMAHA we are talking about... What could have possibly given you the expectation that the T3 was going to be radically different from the T2..? Apart from the SA voices, the T2 was hardly a big departure from the T1. I've been saying all along - If the T2 didn't temp anyone away from their current choice, the T3 is unlikely to be different enough to change that decision You don't seem like the kind of guy that gets sucked in by TV infomercials (ooh..! I GOT to get one of those Sham-WOW's! ), why are we all getting our panties wet over Yamaha's teaser advertising?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#239621 - 08/09/08 06:26 PM
Re: The 4th piece is here!
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Member
Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
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Originally posted by Diki: I don't know if you have been following the thread from The Insider (Andy), Beaky, but you might want to revise that impression... The vast majority of the T2 SA Sax demo was played on a T2 keyboard, with minor editing in a computer sequencer. Most everyone was stating that that one was done on a wind controller, too.
While the Mega parts in some of the Yamaha styles may indeed have been performed initially on a controller, they are computer edited to get the Mega information inserted, but Andy says that most of the T2 demos are done just using keyboards. Those runs might be ALMOST impossible on a keyboard, but not completely impossible!
Amazing what talent can do, isn't it? Diki, While the demos that Andy (The Insider) wrote were for the most part played from the Tyros 2 keyboard, that doesn't mean the other Yamaha demos that he didn't create were. I know that some of the demos were in fact done with live musicians using MIDI controllers because I've spoken with the others who wrote and recorded them in person at AES and NAMM. Cubase was the predominant sequencer of choice for those that created the demos and as far as I'm aware none of the demos were actually recorded and played entirely on the instrument. As I said, a great musician, Cubase, a computer, some massaging and manipulation of notes here and there, and there's your polished professional demo. Not exactly what I'd call playing it real time in one pass but if you're OK with knowing that you can't create the same demo using the instrument by itself, then that's fine. It's like saying I didn't cheat on the test but I did copy four out of a hundred answers off of my buddy when I took a test. While these clinicians, demo makers, and performers are very talented, the way in which these demos are made allows for them to manipulate the demo in a manner in which it would be near impossible to play live. I'd much rather see the demo played live with no need for external manipulation but that wouldn't necessarily show off the instrument the way the manufacturer wants. Even Peter Baartmans and Michel Voncken use external sequencers to make the MIDI files they use live to back them up. It would be far more impressive if their backing tracks were created and performed entirely on the actual instrument but that's simply not the case. I remember seeing some manufacturer demos at AES performed live years ago by Chick Corea, Chicago, Pat Metheny, Lyle Mays, Herbie Hancock, Santana, Dweezil Zappa, and others. They were all played live (yes live), no edits, no sequencers, no manipulated notes, and it sounded awesome. That's what I would classify as true talent as a musician. Computers are great, they can often make our work easier, but they don't make us better musicians than we actually are. Manipulate those tracks any way you want but the fact remains you can either play it live or you can't.
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