SYNTH ZONE
Visit The Bar For Casual Discussion
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#231576 - 04/08/08 12:15 PM Re: Still Deciding.......ugh..
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
I think a lot of the build quality issues apply to how you play. For many with a very light touch, the flyweights are perfectly fine. For those with a stronger, maybe more piano-based touch, the muscularity can make topping out the velocity, and a lot of stand 'bounce' quite apparent.

And it's not good enough to say 'well, just adjust your technique'. It takes years to develop a style and touch all your own. It's no easier for a heavier player to dial back their touch as it is for a flyweight player to be able to control a real piano keyboard for any length of time.

Add to that the fact that, just as you play the keys harder, you also have a tendency to hit the buttons harder (it's very hard to dial it back just for the buttons!), and the reliability and durability of the buttons becomes MUCH more important that it would to the lightweights.

So we have two camps, and BOTH their opinions are correct... at least for themselves! But it's nice to see us abandoning the number of keys for a while as a source of conflict. Back to the old classic of weight above all else. Yawn... Is it Groundhog Day again?

BTW, Kingfrog.... the G70's sequencer is as fully featured as the Korg's, just in case you didn't know (it also has Workstation as a panel graphic!). It's all marketing hype, anyway, as neither of them is a 'workstation' in the modern sense of the word... arpeggiators and audio multi-tracking seem to be the LAST thing they want to add to arrangers. Might spell the end of the WS if they did...

Plus the G70 has something they call Makeup Tools, which is BY FAR the easiest way I have ever come across to make Tone, effects, dynamics, EQ and mix adjustments to an existing SMF or Style. A real time saver...

Do yourself a favor, and try to get some quality time on a G70 before you plunk down nearly double on that PA2X. It might float your boat, and save you some cash...

Top
#231577 - 04/08/08 02:26 PM Re: Still Deciding.......ugh..
Ensnareyou Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
Why is it that many people on the forum say that they don't care if a keyboard is made of plastic, if the materials aren't on par with other high end arrangers, and that all they care about is if it sounds OK? Is just OK good enough? It's that type of mentality that allows companies like Yamaha to make cheap PSR and Tyros "toys" and still have you pay thousands of dollars for them. If you were buying a home, car, furniture, or major appliance I'll bet you wouldn't accept sub par build materials or quality now would you? Of course not!

Keyboards don't have to be made out of cheap materials to be lightweight, that's a farce. Even in plastics and lightweight metals there are higher grade materials but most companies aren't using them in their keyboards. Not because they can't but because they won't (only wanting to increase their profit margin). If we accept the fact they are using cheap materials and we are still willing to spend multi-thousands of dollars on a plastic toy, then whose being fooled? Not the manufacturer that's for sure.

I'm not one that wants to lug around a heavy keyboard any more than the next guy, I won't however spend my hard earned money on an instrument that I have to question how road worthy it is or if it's going to last me 10 years or more. I have a large array of vintage instruments and not a one of them has ever let me down or have I had to question their build quality. The adage holds true, they just don't build things like they use to. There are exceptions but they are very few and far between.

Use whatever works for you but realize that by accepting and buying a keyboard or any other instrument that uses sub par materials, you are perpetuating the manufacture of sub par instruments from those manufacturers that do so.

Also, I'm not one that believes that just because something is made of plastic it isn't a viable instrument. If a Yamaha PSR or Tyros II sounded like my Wersi Abacus, I'd buy one in a second. Of course that isn't the case and it's not likely Yamaha is going to come out with a keyboard for under $4,000.00 that's going to compete on the same level as the Wersi. For now I am left with buying what's available that's the cutting edge of what arranger and workstation technology should be. It just so happens that Wersi packages the Abacus into an all metal case with wood sides. What the hell were they thinking?

Top
#231578 - 04/08/08 06:54 PM Re: Still Deciding.......ugh..
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
Perhaps I can answer that. I don't view plastic as cheap or automatically a "toy". The Tyros is a serious keyboard and tool for many. They will sell becasue of the features and sound set. Not its ability to withstand a spilled drink or tip over. A Flight case can ore than protect any keyboard.


I also view it as a way to keep the price down for a keyboard that is not universally used as a touring unit. Steel is heavy and for Arranger keyboards in particular not necessary. I think most would agree as long as it sounds great and functions having a light keyboard to carry around is a bonus.

(See Bose Lt1, LOL)not to open a can of worms.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

Top
#231579 - 04/08/08 07:29 PM Re: Still Deciding.......ugh..
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
If they made them light with no other compromise, I think the point would be moot, but firstly the lack of a 76 makes regular non-arranger use a bit more difficult if you use a one keyboard rig. The fact that these keyboards include SMF and MP3 players seems to indicate there is quite a demand for non-arranger usage (before the 'it's perfectly fine for ordinary arranger use' camp jumps in, here), and the greater the number of keys, the more flexible your setups can be (ever tried TWO splits on a 61?).

The T2's keyboard, although a little light for me, at least IS built to workstation standards, but it is galling to have to pay $2000 MORE just for a decent keyboard (and little else since the S900 came out), when the Yamaha WS line (Motifs) has the same keyboard on it's LOWEST level offering.

I guess for many of us, we simply expect the same build quality from arrangers as we get for equivalent cost workstations. If Yamaha can make a WS product at that price, built to THAT standard, why not an arranger? There is little extra in the weight of the 61 (about 30 lbs. total), certainly not enough to put MANY users off it) and anyone who has played one will comment about how solid and well built it is compared to the arranger line.

And PLEASE don't tell me about the needs of the WS users for a more roadworthy product. You can't have it BOTH ways. Either the PSR and Tyros2 ends up in basically the same hands as the Motifs. I would be prepared to say that nearly the same percentage of Motifs end up in homes and studios as does arrangers. Plenty of pros using Yamaha arrangers, despite their build quality (they HAVE to, if they want the features and sounds), and plenty of home users buying Motifs.

So why the apparent freebie (or close to it) of a decent build quality for the WS users, and close to toy-like construction for even the TOTL Yammie arranger? SOMEONE is getting shafted... Is it us (the arranger user), or is the WS user, who has to lug around a tad more weight?

I know how I feel...

Top
#231580 - 04/08/08 07:51 PM Re: Still Deciding.......ugh..
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4006
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
My view may be a bit different. My plastic toys have been earning me many dollars for years, and more than most – and I have had no mishaps for the last 16 years.

If there is a need for strongly built keyboard to do your work that’s good, but it is not necessarily related to the quality of sound, longevity of the keyboard or the amount of dollars you can earn.

Is a 4,500 keyboard better than a $2,000? I would be shocked if it were not. The question is – better in what ways – and then I am I in need of those features.

IMHO, John C.

Top
#231581 - 04/08/08 08:41 PM Re: Still Deciding.......ugh..
Diki Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 12861
Loc: NW Florida
So why the WS need for better quality, if it makes NO difference?

Why do Yamaha chose to do this ONLY for the WS users? How come their needs are so greater than ours that Yamaha chose to lose profits by providing this?

We are being shafted, and apparently, we LIKE it

Top
#231582 - 04/08/08 09:42 PM Re: Still Deciding.......ugh..
Kingfrog Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
The Yamaha Workstations are routinely used in professional touring situations, being handled by roadies, loaded in and out of trucks on a daily basis. You really cannot compare the Arranger user with a workstation user. Arrangers are still considered home keyboards by many players and the Manufacturers agree.

Name one major band that tours with an Arranger. They don't need them. Again the him user and the demographic are older people. I am retired and work PT in a music store. More young people ask for the Motifs. No one ever asks to play the "arranger" We don't even stock a Tyros. The local Guitar center does not stock one Arranger.

Yamaha knows this and knows they will sell everyone they make because it does not look imposing and "industrial" I think they make it out of plastic frankly to make it look like a "toy" so their market will not be intimidated by it.

You must realize todays arrangers are yesterday's Lowery organ. not yesterday's Prophet 5.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4
Yamaha Motif XS8
Roland RD700
Casio PX-330
Martin DC Aura
Breedlove ATlas Solo
Bose MOD II PA

Top
#231583 - 04/09/08 02:10 AM Re: Still Deciding.......ugh..
bruno123 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4006
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
You must realize todays arrangers are yesterday's Lowery organ. not yesterday's Prophet 5. Great point Kingfrog.

Disguise the Lowery as a new toy – and then --- make it look like a beautiful black grand piano. Oh how we loved to be fooled.

John C.

Top
#231584 - 04/09/08 04:21 AM Re: Still Deciding.......ugh..
ianmcnll Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10592
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
Personally, I'm tickled that Yamaha makes their arrangers so light, compact....and durable.

The sound is excellent, especially with the SA and mega voices, and the OS is a doddle to use.

Remember, these units are made for "home players" first...just because some of us pros like to use them to our advantage (especially as they are so light) for solo gigs, doesn't mean they are "pro".

The advantages of "light and durable" are many, or we would still be using big heavy walkie-talkies instead of tiny and lightweight cell phones.

Computers are lighter and take up less space, but are even more powerful than ever.

Like it or not, lightweight and durable is the future, and woe to those who do not comply.

Alternatives to the Tyros2/S900 fight an uphill battle. In a remarkably broad price range, Yamaha an offers a virtuosity-to-dollar ratio that’s tough to beat.

Some keyboards do other things better: make you feel rich, look fancy, be expensive, etc. but, quite frankly, they aren't even in the same stratosphere.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-09-2008).]
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

Moderator:  Admin 



Help keep Synth Zone Online