Hi, I'm new on this forum.

I play piano, and I'm thinking to buy an arranger keyboard. I would like to have a good arranger that has a very good piano voice. That is, an arranger that, playing it like a piano, it sounds (with external amplifier) near a real piano (nothing about keys, I know arranger keys are light plastic).

What would be the better option?

If you think there is no arrangers with a good piano voice, the question would be another one: To Buy an arranger and, then, an expansion card, sample, or something like that, to have a better piano voice on the arranger.

In that case, what arranger and what external piano voice?

Thanks a lot, guys

Ooooh - be prepared for a lot of differing views, my friend. We discuss this topic very often here and you will find EVERY opinion you could hope for. My choice for piano tone alone is the Yamaha 9000pro (not the psr model)
Second choice is tied with Roland VA5/7/76
and the Ketron SD1.
My weak choices are the Technics kn series and the Gem WK series. This is a personal observation, so spend some time with the units you like ...... ALL pianos sound different, even in the acoustic world.

I'd be surprised if you didn't like the 9kpro. Good luck.

Ohh man.. I can smell a hot topic comin' ..lol. On top of that, this stuff is soooo subjective, but here goes my crack at it. I can only share my experiences with the keyboards I've played and owned. I finally got a chance to fool with a 9000 pro which has better "piano" action than the average arranger and a rather good piano sound to boot. Downfalls, if it matters.. about 3,000 US dollars ( give or take a few ), no speakers ( if it matters ), and a little large and clumsy to transport to shows. Still, I'm with UD on this one. 9000 pro is the one I like best of what I've heard.

I've owned several of the lesser PSR lines including the 530, 740 and 2000. I found the ac piano sounds to be ok on all of them, but not great.

I once had the Casio MZ2000. It had an awful ac piano sound..

I now have the PA80, which I still prefer because of it's overall sounds and it's very flexible O/S. Unfortunately, the one sound I like the least on the board is the AC piano. For my ears it ranks right up there with the one from the MZ2000. So my solution for home use: Use the very nice AC piano sound from my Motif ( non arranger ) or use my software samples. On the road, the Motif comes with me for it's outstanding Ac and Rhodes piano sounds.

I love the SD1 ac piano samples I've heard, but I can't really judge it accurately until I get one in front of me to play with.

Who'd I miss ? Roland.. Liked the ac piano sounds ok from what I've tried of the G series, haven't listened to the ones from the VA series.


9000 pro has sampling.. so does the 9000 and the PA80. I don't think you'd need additional piano samples with the 9k pro, but your own ears would tell you that better than I can. I can only speak of my experiences with the PA80 and the Motif. I don't even bother on the PA80, because just for starters you need to buy the "special" korg 8 mb smart media card at about 200 USD before you can do any sampling. I've done it on the Motif. Like the 9000 pro, you start with a rather low sample rom capability ( 4mb on the Mo, probably around the same on the 9000 ), and can expand it to 64 mb via optional SIMM modules.

I never use samples when I am playing live. For other situations, I found sampling to be much easier using my software stuff, ( I even prefer the Modest SB live soundfont software ). Also some of top end piano sample packages are well over 64 mb, so you can;t load them up on the 9000 pro or Motif.

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 07-02-2002).]

Hello

For me , 9000Pro have the best piano voice with a excellent key taste.

Chico

Oh yeah, you asked the right question if want a lot of different opinions. I agree with Uncle Dave and Bluezplayer. I think the 9000 Pro has the edge in the piano department. Plus as stated by Bluezplayer, the action on the 9000 Pro is great! It's not weighted, but it's got great synth action.. I too used to have the MZ-2000 and I'm with Bluezplayer on that keyboards piano sound. It wasn't the worst, but sure left a lot to be desired. You're going to get a lot of opinions on this subject. The best thing for you to do is go to a local music store and try them out. Everyone's ear for a good piano is different. I just talked to someone the other day who thought the Casio WK-1800 had a better piano sound than the Yamaha PSR-9000 (I of course strongly disagree with this), but it goes to show you you how different we all hear the sound. Try them out for yourself.. We can only suggest what to try, but it all comes down to what your ear likes..

Squeak

All your are right... There are a lot of different piano sounds .... in pianos!!
But I don't want a Steinway, only a decent piano voice for home. I like sweet piano sound, not bright, not synt...

And it it is possible, not to pay 3000 $ or more for it (like 9000 pro.., it is the price of a Clavinova!!!!).
No arrangers between 1.000-2.000$ with good piano voice? Any Roland, Yamaha, Technics or Korg?

Thanks

The descision of which arranger keyboard has the best acoustic piano will depend a lot on the genre (rock, jazz, latin, blues, new age, etc) of music you play, as well as the style of keyboard playing you use (solo piano, full/split keyboard mode, etc).

I think the piano sound on the Ketron SD1 & Roland VA boards really shine for rock, r&b, blues and contempo pop. Both provide plenty of body to cut thru the mix, though the SD1's piano sound is a bit darker.

For straight ahead swing & jazz standards, I prefer the Technics KN keyboard's lighter 'transparent' sounding piano. If you want to play in the comping style of an acoustic jazz pianist (in full keyboard mode), then this is a best choice.

For 'best overall' acoustic piano sound suitable for the widest variety of music genres, my vote goes to the Yamaha 9000pro.

Scott

Bluebird
My opinion.........if you are a 'piano' player and have grown accustomed to playing with the feel and resistance of an acoustic piano keyboard - an argument could be made that you should steer clear of all the arranger keyboards mentioned here so far. As is said often here - the piano sample comparisons are subjective and are also greatly dependant on the room and the quality of your amplification system.

Perhaps the biggest consideration for you should be how often you need to move it around. If its often - you will probably end up preferring to learn how to play and adjust to synth-action keys because the unit weight will be lower.

On the other hand - if you don't move it much - you could stick with regular keyboard action and get a slightly heavier unit. In that regards and depending on your taste in sounds - there is the KF90 by Roland and the SK88 by Generalmusic. Neither of them are on the cutting edge but the KF90 has wonderful sounds.

As to stand alone piano sounds - the Roland FP3 is great as is the Technics SX-P50 and the Yamaha - all of which have piano action. You could take one of those and use it as a controller with an arranger module from someone like Ketron - XD3. One of the problems in combining differening sound sources though is the overall compatibility of sounds - lots of that is the difference in effects processing - but not all products combine well just because of the types of sound generating and processing.

Mike

I hope you can sit down at a Music Store near you and play the 9000 PRO, psr9000, korg 80 and psr2000 ... so you can see if it meets your requirements.
The psr9000 and korg 80 are around same price 1999 (ball park figure)
The 9000Pro is 2699 (ball park figure)
The psr2000 is 1,000 dollars (ball park figure)

So except for the 9000 PRO fit into your 1,000 - 2,000 price range.

With Arrnagers, do an online search for REVIEWS on these models , and you are doing the next best thing - ask people that own them and play them ... 3rd is play them yourself !
Good LUCK.
rgtaa

I'll second that Mike.

I have a Roland KR577 digital Piano/Arranger, and it is the best Piano sound “I” have heard. Period. The KF-90 is a portable version of my Piano, and I nearly had it. But since I don't gig, I thought the KR577 was a better option for me (if not a more expensive one) Having tried the Yamaha 9000 Pro, Technics KN6500, I would recommend the Roland KF90 over both these (My opinion only). And same as Mike says the,KF90 has wonderful sounds. It really is something else.....

You can download a demo for the Roland KF-90 right here if you want bluebird.

Good luck



[This message has been edited by Jupitar5 (edited 07-02-2002).]

If you don't expect too much from the "arranger" part, I think the Korg SP 500 could be a good choice.

It is a combination of arranger and true electric piano.
http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?A_PROD_NO=SP500

For me it sounds good.


The problem: you can not save anything

The Technics KN6500 has also great piano sound. The sample is from a Steinway grand piano and sounds very realistic. I still wonder how I can get a Steinway piano sound to my PSR9000.

Micco

Best Piano Sound !!!!!!!!
Well (deep subject ) , I might be digging a BIG hole ( another , deep subject ) But what about a "Yamaha " MIDI-GRAND
I mean I know its big and you plug-it in but it does have "that shape"---you know - that "piano shape" so unless "Yamaha" put bugs in that model it must sound like a piano. !!! hahahah Have a Great Day !!
Also, Welcome to our family, Bulebird , It`s the best "corner of the web" and the most fun !!
jedi

My vote goes to the 9000 PRO.
Oh Ya
Denny

This subject certainly strikes a major chord on this board. The opinions already posted here should provide excellent guidance for your decision, but it is of the utmost importance that you PLAY and LISTEN to any keyboard before you buy. No two people have the same ears, or exactly the same tastes. Good luck!

Many of you say: go to your local music store and compare all these keyboards. Before I purchased my KN-6500, I wanted to look at a Yamaha-9000. I live in Michigan, a large midwestern state, with many large cities. I tried all the Organ, Keyboard stores, I could visit and return in one day. Six of these cities were over 100,000 population. Each town had Yahama Franchised Dealors, but not one of them STOCKED the 9000 or the 9000 pro. And many had never heard of Ketron or GEM. I e-mailed Yamaha for help in disclosing a STOCKING DEALOR in my state, and their answer was: "any dealor could order one in for my inspection of the instrument, and if not sold, could return it." I'm sure you understand it is not always easy to play and compare these many keyboards, and that calls for a difficult decision, of what and where to purchase. Personally, now that I have had my 6500 for a year, I'm really glad it turned out this way. Have a great 4th. ARJ

The same situation pretty much exists in the largest city in the country.... NY. I live about 2 and a half hrs away from NY city but I am more than happy to drive there to try boards. I have not fared particularly well. I have gotten to see all of the Yamaha line at various places, but no Technics or Ketron at all in any of the major music stores. Roland arrangers are pretty scarce as well, but can usually be found. I am also 3 hrs from Philly. I haven't done much better there ( course I've never been to UD's place either. )

The only city of any appreciable size that is relatively close ( about an hr from me ) is Scranton, Pa. There is one dealer who does have some arrangers there, but he isn't always current. I think he believes that the I-30 he has is still a current model. Another guy in Scranton has an ancient looking GEM model. He has no clue as to how it works, and although I liked a few of the sounds, I didn't spend a lot of time playing with it.

Still, before I consider purchasing an SD1, I'm going to drive the 4 + hrs or so to DanO's place. I'm just not willing to plunk that kind of money down on any board that I haven't laid my hands on to try out first.

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 07-02-2002).]

Here's an opinion from a Music Store owner......
I like two models I sell for the musician who would like 88 hammer action keys, arranger functions, light enough to take to a gig, and sounds that would please any ear listening.
First, the Roland KF90. Great sounds, styles, 16 track sequencer,built in speakers, vocal harmonizer, notation on the touch screen plus lyrics, and a price that is much less then it's KR brother.
The Korg SP500, for about 1/2 the price, is similar but without speakers, vocal harmonizer, disk drive, user style programming, but a good value and it satisfies your need for a good piano feel and sound.
Yamaha will be coming out with a new keyboard in a few months called the Pf1000 which I posted some info about a week ago. It will feature Clavinova features but without as high a price. It will be about the same price as the KF90. I don't have all the info on it yet, but I don't know about the vocal harmonizer yet.
Just my two cents worth!
George Kaye
Kaye's music Scene
Reseda, California

My vote is for the 9000PRO - A great sound, a great action and a great all round performer. The retail dollars are expensive but you never pay them.You can always do a deal from the "right" supplier.
Jon.

Thanks to all for your help.

I can see you rank first 9000pro, VA series, and KN65000.

And Roland KF-90, but I think this one plays in another ligue... So,

-Is KF-90 a lot more priced than VA7?
-Is it really much better than VA7?

Yesterday, I see and played PSR2000. Nice kb, but piano voice likes a little weak when listening it by internal loudspeakers or earphones. So,

- It will sound much better, more real (nearer to 9000) with an external amplifier and external loudspeakers?

Thanks, your are very nice and helpful people all of you.

Bluebird

Scottyee and others here own the prs2000 and they can tell you the answer to the prs2000 question. If it's like prs9000 or 9000 pro you can adjust settings in control panel.

Maybe ask the saleman if he can plug the psr2000 into external speakers. By "weak" did you mean 'soft" or "not like a paino sound"?

I know when I close my eys and just listen to my psr9000 it sounds just like a paino to me ... as others have said ... we all have our opinion on the subject.

In addition to just the "paino sound" when you are buying an arranger there is so much else you are buying! Harminiser,Sampler,karakie with words displayed, midi, and these are things that you can't really check out at a music store... once I took the psr9000 home , and read the manual and chatted with others on psr styles forum ... and downloaded styles,pads,registrations, and was told how to adjust the control panel to make the sounds really SHINE ... I was very impressed!
That's why it is important to keep an open mind and ear and listen for yourself.

rgtaa
p.s. If you gig alot , the psr2000 is good choice and is the cheapest of all the keyboards that we have listed for you ...

For me,I don't gig out much and I liked the Strong Sounding Speakers in the psr9000 and Sampler,and 128 poly , styles,ect.

I think it comes down to just yourself, your friends or audience can't tell the difference, you are the 'only' one who is gonna be that discerning!




[This message has been edited by rgtaa (edited 07-03-2002).]

I think the piano sound on the 2000 is pretty good. I've heard better, but it certainly gets me by. If you wish, go to my website and play "Welcome To My World". It has a pretty prominent piano part, and was done entirely on the 2000. It's on the page titled "Listen To The Music".
DonM www.donmasonmusic.com

Though the Yamaha 9000pro obviously has the superior piano sound (sampled from Yamaha's highly touted C series acoustic grands) , I am very pleased overall with the PSR2000's acoustic 'Grand Piano' sound. It sounds pleasing with a natural sounding decay, well suited for playing a wide variety of musical styles (swing jazz to pop, country, & blues). For enhanced gutsyness or brightness, I can easily layer another piano sample with it. When gigging, I go thru one or 2 (pair) Electro Voice EV-SXA100 Self Powered PAs. One thing to note: When playing the PSR2000 thru an external sound source, I still keep the 2000's external speakers ON (to monitor the mix), because the sound (particularly the acoustic piano) projects better (sounding more focussed) from the keyboard player's position. My only big complaint, from a piano player's point of view, is the 2000's poor chord recognition in 'full' keyboard mode. Unfortunately, the 9000pro & PSR9000 suffer equally in this dept as well. If you come from a background as an acoustic piano player and playing in full keyboard mode is important, I'd suggest you checkout the Technics KN arrangers. The KN boards currently offer the BEST full keyboard mode chord recognition. I only can hope that Yamaha will emulate what Technics has already accomplished here.

Well, you ask, what is the problem with full keyboard mode on the Yamaha PSR boards? Here's my beef: When you trigger a a 'non root position' chord with your left hand and then solo (with your right hand) any notes 'within an octave' of the chord played in the left hand, the chord recognition will switch and the auto accompaniment bass line will jump to something I find unpleasing.

Example: In 'full keyboard' mode, play with your left hand, a G7 3rd inversion chord (F-G-B-D). Now with your right hand, play a G mixolydian scale (notes compatiable with a G7 chord), beginning with the note E (the note located directly a 'whole step' above the note D played with your left hand). The right hand notes to play in slow succession are: E, F, G, A, B, C, D.

You will notice that the chord recognition changes as follows:

Right hand note Played : Chord Recognition

E: G713
F: G7/F
G: G7/F
A: G79
B: G7
C: G7
D: G7

All are correctly recognized as a G chord, but I'd prefer the G7/F slash chords be reconized as a G7 instead. What I don't like is that when you go from A to G (melody or solo) with your right hand , the auto accomp bass line jumps unexpectantly (& unpleasantly) from a G bass line to some weird F based bass line which ends up sounding un-natural and musically unpleasing to my ear. From a musical (soloing) standpoint, Yamaha needs to drop the G7/F slash cord recognition thing. If Yamaha corrects this, 'full keyboard' mode would be usable for me. Unfortunately (to avoid this problem) I must play my 2000 in split mode. I can only hope that Yamaha will fix this minor flaw. I know it's something that can be EASILY corrected. - Scott

I think the split mode is intended for exactly that style of play. Full mode makes it easy for players to just pound out the chords and still get the acc recognition. If you solo on top of a chord in full mode, it can't help but try to "catch up" to all the new chords presented. Doesn't split mode offer you the result you want with no compromise? You can match the tones on each side of the split so it will be the same thing as a full mode, but with the added finesse of split mode recognition.
Seems like it's not a bug at all, but a design feature to facilitate more playing styles. I wouldn't want an arranger to try to follow my solo lines.... just the chord structure.

NO ! Since you say you primarily play in 'one fingered' chord recognition mode, you apparently don't understand. Split mode does not offer what you can do in FULL keyboard mode. FULL keyboard mode allows you to trigger chords in either: left, right, or across BOTH hands: such as being able to play just the root and 7th (in the left hand) and then playing the 3rd of the chord in the right hand, to give you a dominant 7th chord recognition. Hey, the Technics KN keyboard's, in 'full keyboard' mode, allows you to play & solo across the entire keyboard range, recognizing chords without coming up with those weird slash chords,so why can't Yamaha do this too? It would be a real simple (bug fix) to do, and make PSR 'Full Keyboard mode' usuable for acoustic piano players. - Scott

The KF90 is priced at $3195.00 wth stand and bench. The VA76, with 76 keys instead of 88 hammer weighted keys sells for $2495.00 with no stand. The KF90 has the vocal harmonizer. The VA7 or VA76 does not have a vocal harmonizer but rather a vocal sampler. The grand piano sound in the KF90 is better than the VA7 or VA76 because you can modify some of the piano parameters such as how open the grand piano top is opened, how much resonance, brightness, etc.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

Scott
I have a bit of the same situation on chord recog. with the SD1. I can't (won't) play in split mode because I want the same high quality preset piano sound across the board -and you only get that in pianist mode if you want to trigger chords in the normal range. So I opted to disable the sustain pedal and its only function now is to lock the chord in - so no right hand notes affect it. Suprisingly enough I found that when I played the SD1 from my FP3 - I could use the SD1 sustain pedal to lock the chord - but using my FP3 sustain pedal (midi-out) gave me back sustain capability without sacrificing my chord lock. I have found this helpful to me because because once I trigger a chord I am free to change voicing in my left hand comping as the mood strikes.

Mike

I'm surprised that no one here mentioned the Grand Piano expansion board for the Yamaha 9000 Pro. Has anyone here ever tried it? More to the point, has anyone here tried it and liked the original 9000 Pro stock piano sound better? According to the posts I have researched, those who have tried the piano expansion board prefered it over the stock 9000 Pro piano sound. Since you guys like the 9000 Pro piano sound so much, I just thought maybe someone would say if the expansion board is even better, since the question was about what has the best piano sound...

I still don't understand how the keyboard is supposed to distinguish between solo notes or chord notes in full mode. I thought that as long as three notes were pressed the chord would be recognized, and you could tinkle over top till three more were addressed. I see no disadvantage in assigning the L & R sounds to the SAME tone, and playing in split mode, so ONLY the chords you send will be the triggers. I can't imagine wanting a moving solo line to be the determining factor for my chord changes.
Split mode allows for more sophisticated chord changes to be used without affecting the voicings in the right hand....and vice versa. Sometimes, a simple triad is all that's needed in the arranger, as long as the right hand is doing something juicy and creative.
I don't actually use the single finger mode - I use a mode that allows MAJ chords with one key, MIN with 2, but any other chord may be fingered also. This allows my left hand to maintain the "feel" I use when playing bass lines. I just don't like using big chords if I don't have to. It ties up too much thought process for me.
I can't imagine the split mode NOT being the mode of choice for acurate two handed piano technique. Just asign both sides of the split to the same sound.

Lets not forget that on a lot of the higher end arrangers you can tweak the sound or layer voices (if you jave enough polyphony to start with) to get the sound you want. I am not going to add anything else to the debate, thyis ones much too subjective. Let your ears be your guide!

My 2 cents worth on the latest postings......
FULL KEYBBOARD Mode - as you may or may not know the 9000PRO now has two versions of full keyboard mode. The latest version (A1 Full Keyboard) is a big improvement on the earlier Full Keyboard version. I have found that there is an occational problem when it misinterprets the harmonic progression of the performer (eg. G7 instead of G, Amin instead of C ) but these seem to be few and don't really inhibit the use of the function from a performance point of view.

In answer to The Pro's question on the add on boards - I remember that those who have tried the PF add-on love the piano sound far more than the standard 9000PRO piano. But this is veeeeery subjective - you like what you like. I have been tempted to try the PF board but can't find a local supplier (in Australia). I guess that I am happy with the 9000PRO piano, enough to not be overly tempted to go and look elsewhere. But I must say that the thought of an extra 64 poly does have its attraction.
Jon.


[This message has been edited by JonPro (edited 07-10-2002).]

solton X4 module for arranger function
a 88 weighted masterkeyboard for "piano" keys
gigastudio software sampler for "real" piano sounds

Hi Frank,

i was out of the arranger thing for some time but i see that in the meantime you have been steadily working to achieve what we discussed a year (or two?) ago. Congrats for your persistance. I am quite interested to seek copying your setup.

What the score on Soundtrek? any sight of XP yet?
Are you intending to stick with Live Styler?
How heavy is the tweaking of Yamaha styles?
Do you seen any means of storing complete performance data
Are you not missing a real GSIF capable audio card?

etc, etc ...

great forum, huh..

elle

Frank, Elle:
Forgive my ignorance, but I am very "intrigued" about both your posts on what I think (correct me if I am wrong) is a "virtual" arranger. Sounds to me like a "clever" way of building your own set up to your own specs, at half the cost(possibly less). Am I correct?
If I am, I sincerely hope that you won't mind letting us all into what I believe is the ultimate solution to arranger owners "discontent".
I, for one, am still looking for the "perfect" arranger (or any approximation to it), but I confess that I am slowly running out of money trying to keep up with the latest, only to find out it's not what I was expecting, forcing me into another "cycle" of buying high and selling low (very low, reminds me of the stock market)
Any way, would you guys mind very much expanding on the subject and letting us in on what I believe could be a solution to my "dilemma"?
Thanks.
Ps. If you feel “uncomfortable” about going public with this, I would understand; or maybe you can email me directly. Thanks.
Mario

Frank:
Thanks for your reply on this very interesting concept. The system involving "Motif" with the laptop, sounds quite feasible and simple enough to give it a try.
Nevertheless, outside of my regular gigging, I've been doing a lot of recording in my home with the PSR2000 and Cakewalk pro9 and it has it's limitations although I am "cranking out" some of the best "home made" recordings I've ever made. But as you mention, there seems to be a lot of software out there that is far superior to the one now existent on arranger KBs. So your home set up sounds extremely enticing.
I am hoping that once you are 100% satisfied with your set up, you can sit down and write a book on the subject (maybe a "best Seller") so I can go out and buy it. I am sure by now you've considered it. If not, you should.
Best wishes,
Mario


[This message has been edited by Mario (edited 08-02-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Mario (edited 08-02-2002).]

While I think ultimately as bluezplayer said, it's very subjective to each individuals ears.....I have to throw my vote in for the 9000 as well. I am hoping the new Tyros is going to be even better as that may well be my next board.

If you want the best sounds all around generally speaking, you'll pay higher dollars for them. It cost more to produce a more sophisticated sound.
jam on,
Terry